I’m Looking to get a new table saw I’ve narrowed my selection to a PM2000 now or wait and get the new unisaw when it comes out? Any thoughts or advice on this would be helpfull!
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Replies
Unless your need is time-critical, you may want to wait for the new Unisaw to be available, and see what early buyers have to say. The pre-production reviews appear to be quite favorable, though.
I would also wait for the new unisaw, the features look awesome. Wish I could get one myself, I like the left tilt and the control handles on the front of the cabinet. WW 57
I'd purchase a used saw and use the money saved to get a big pile of lumber.
Great advice, and most of the time goes unheeded.
Jeff
You've told us nothing as to your needs. Are you a business or a DIY? How are you on finances? Is tool addiction a factor? Have you checked out accessories for both products? How adaptable to dust collection are they? Do both supply compatible mortise and tenon jig? Do you need it on casters? Can either unit do what a basic Grizzly, Delta, PM, or Jet contractor saw can do? Is your power supply adequate? Will you be running dado or molding heads extensively? Will there be any adverse affect on your relationship with a significant other if there is one?
RJT says: don't buy tools with emotion, look at the trouble that got you into with women.
LOL! I think that about covers it.
Although you forgot to ask what color theme he wants for his shop? Gold or black? Or, he could, as you imply, go cheaper with green or white.
OK, now that I got that out of my system, I have a similar question. I can buy a used (but in like-new condition) Powermatic 66-TA 3 hp with an extension table for ~$2,000. Is it worth it for a hobbyist furniture-maker like myself, or should I just get a Grizzly? I see that they have the new 10" 3 hp left-tilt saw with the riving knife for about $1,300.
Edited 1/18/2009 4:00 am ET by ajkelly
Thanks for all the questions RJT it really got me thinking.
First of all yes I do have a tool addiction, always want the best. and it seems to cause some friction between the wife and I from time to time. (Cant imangine why, who would'nt want the bigest badest tool made. LOL) guess women dont understand.
I'm a DIY guy in wood working. The bigest thing I really want in a new saw is a riving knife on it. A 3hp cabinet saw. running 220 is not a problem for me to do.
Almost any thing is better then what I have now, An old craftsman contrators saw with no dust collection except the bag hanging under it and most of the dust ends up behind the saw instead of in the bag. I have looked at used saws but haven't found one I really like (one with a riving knife). After doing some more research and being a little more practical I think I might go with the new saw by Grizzly. I'll save $1500 which I can put towards lumber like some of the other guys suggested
Thanks again everyone for making me tink a little more practical
Auto
Not 'tink', how about 'think'
I was just looking and I can get a steel city saw with granite top and free forrest blade for same price as a grizzly saw. which one do you think is better
Auto
Wow, including sales tax? Thats a pretty good deal, where did you see that?Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
The price at grizley is $1496 plus tax http://grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Long-Rails-Riving-Knife/G0691 and the steel city is $1499 plus tax but I dont have to pay shipping because I can get it at my local wood shop.
http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/index.cfm?section=1 then click on Winter Sales Flyer (United States) both have the extention table
hey auto thats a good price with a forrest blade. I looked at the flyer link and I would just make you aware that the granite saw on sale with 3hp 50" fence appears to be a single belt system. On down the flyer it shows the saws with "triple belt" and the fence is smaller than the griz but hey it still looks like an awsome deal. The only thing I would be cautious about is the 1 belt .vs. the three, but thats just me. If you do get it let us know how that granite top holds up, It sure will eliminate the waxing the top. Good luck on the purchase. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
$1500 is a lot to pay for a saw. I'll reiterate from my previous post, look for a used saw and use the money saved for a pile of lumber. $1500 is about what I have into my four Unisaws and a PM 66. All purchased used and as good as a new machine.
Exactly! Buy a good used saw. They are available and have plenty of life in them.
I see unisaws in craigslist once in a while with extention tables, fences, the works for $ 600-800.
just looked and found this In Ft Collins which is a small area. http://fortcollins.craigslist.org/tls/999020287.html
Not a great deal considering what you want but you get the idea. Look around at used.
Whether or not you think the break on the SawStop is worth the extra, there are a number of new saws out with the riving knife which do make the saw much safer. Last month, we had two members of our Woodworkers Guild injured that would not have been injured if they had either a riving knife or at least a splitter on their saws. One of them was hit with a big sharp chunk of wood just a few inches away from a large artery which might have killed him.Grizzly has a contractors saw with a two hp motor with a riving knife. The biggest drawback is that it does not have a low profile riving knife. Rigid has a new saw out that has a riving knife but has the same limitations as the Grizzly.The drawback to these two saws in my opinion is that the riving knife and guard are not easy to put on and take off so most likely they will not be used. Powermatic, Delta, SawStop and a few more have riving knives that are easy to take off and put on and have a low profile riving knife for non through cuts.
I personally think the SawStop is worth the extra money. But that is a decision that everyone needs to make for themselves. Domer
It is exciting to buy a new piece of equipment, whether it be brand new or something like a classic 1940's Unisaw. And perhaps a Grizzly would be every bit as capable of doing what you need to do on a saw, but if you have the money and are inspired to do better work by the quality of your machinery, go for the PM. As for your other love; the wife, you need to convince her that you need that piece of equipment to do that project that she wants done! And by project, I mean a significant project, not another jewelry box. The wife of a woodworker will be okay with a woodwork gift for Christmas and birthdays for at most 3 years, after that you need to get your butt down to the jewelry store and get her something to put in those jewelry boxes you've been giving her. RJT says: put your wife first and she'll let you buy whatever you want.
" but if you have the money and are inspired to do better work by the quality of your machinery, go for the PM. "
I bet you a a new PM, that I could cut two pieces of wood, one on each brand TS and if they are set up to cut square you could not pick which machine cut which piece.
It's like saying if I go out and buy a set of pings I'll golf like ChiChi. (for you young whiper snappers thats Rodriquez).
Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with any of the brands mentioned on this thread, but Its what you do with it as much as the equipment. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
The advantage of buying a new saw, either the Powermatic or Unisaw is that they both have true riving knives which is a big safety feature.Domer
"I bet you a a new PM, that I could cut two pieces of wood..."I wasn't referring to the quality of the cut from one saw vs. another, but rather the inspiration to do better work overall due to the fact you've got a great tool.
I see said the blind man. Never thought of it that way before. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I'm not inspired by the tools somebody has, but what they do with them. To me the most inspiring is the guy who does great work with old basic tools. Don't get me wrong, I love tools, but after years of hanging around martial artists I can't remember how many have looked like total fools with the latest, flashiest uniforms and gear next to somebody in clean old clothes and at most a stick for gear. Same in construction and woodworking.At least that's what I tell myself when I'm tempted to buy myself into debt. First time I picked up FWW I said, "That' it1 I need to go buy a minimum of $20,000 worth of new tools". I'm glad I stayed with my wife and house instead.
Edited 1/25/2009 8:03 pm ET by habilis
Here's what I don't get: there are saws available today that will cut all manner of wood, but won't cut your finger off.So, given a new saw that won't cut your finger off, and a new saw that will, why on earth would anyone buy a new saw that will?Is this a Chevy-Ford thing? (Well, it ain't, because both Chevies and Fords will dismember you will equal abandon...)Or is this a "what's a seatbelt?" thing?
Edited 1/25/2009 9:52 pm ET by Jammersix
maybe it's just a "I don't really want a sawstop thing".Excuse me if I'm reading too much into your comment, but the patronizing tone in your comment is overwhelming. I realize it's hard to believe, but countless people have managed to safely use a tablesaw without dismembering themselves long before the age of the sawstop. I have navigated my way through a shop full of machines for 30+ years without serious injury, in fact the only serious injury I have sustained was due to a handheld pruning saw that I was using in the garden, and as far as I know the fine folks at sawstop have not seen fit to introduce a handheld version of their technology. The sawstop is a really nice tablesaw and my hat is off to Stephen Gass for not only inventing the safety mechanism but also for doggedly bringing it to market in the face of many obstacles and countless naysayers. Having said that, the arrival of the Sawstop does not mean the other tablesaw manufacturers should shut down their businesses and cede the market to Gass.
There was nothing patronizing about it-- I'm at 35 years and counting, as a carpenter, union and non-union, a contractor, and in my own shop.I've shot myself with a nail gun, run drills into my leg, fallen twelve feet and twenty feet, and the only time I tried to use a worm drive without a guard, I set the spinning blade on my knee. The fact that I can still count to twenty amazes me.It's been almost 17 years since my last serious injury, and I do everything I can, every day, to extend that record for eight more hours.I don't believe that an 8 hour, 17 year or 30 year safety record will protect you from your tablesaw. I don't believe that "I'll be really, really careful" is sufficient.And that's why I asked the question I asked.I agree-- Delta, Powermatic, Jet and the rest shouldn't close their doors, they should get back down in the shop and design something even better.
I have been doing woodworking for probably thirty years. I have only had one fairly serious kick back which occurred a few months ago. Fortunately, the piece of wood was big enough to not puncture me and small enough to not do any thing but bruise me pretty good. I was doing something stupid. But if I had been using a saw with a riving knife, it probably would not have happened at all. I have never cut myself on a table saw blade and hope I never will. I attended a workshop a few months ago, and the presenter made a big deal about guards and either riving knives or splitters on the table saw. He made a believer out of me. I am going to buy a Saw Stop Contractors Saw in the next few weeks. I know the cost is considerably more that a saw with out the break feature. In fact, I could buy a new Powermatic PM 2000 for the same price. I hope I never use the saw break feature, but if I do something stupid, I hope it saves me. I would not suggest that buying a Saw Stop is the right choice for every one but that is why they make so many different saws. In fact, my son, also a woodworker, thinks I am nuts to spend the extra for the Saw Stop. I am surprised that my wife is sort of on his side as well. But I am going to do it anyway.Domer
"I would not suggest that buying a Saw Stop is the right choice for everyone....."
I could go further and say that buying a Saw Stop over a otherwise equal quality saw is a waste of money for anyone who is never going to contact the saw blade. Hope you get my drift.
I think the SawStop is a great idea and it seems to be a very good saw that has a special feature... one concern no one seems to raise is what happens if SawStop goes out of business or has a major design change to obsolete the cartridges and the current ones become unavailable?
It is my understanding that the breaks are made by Texas Instruments. So hopefully, they would still be available. It is an issue though.Domer
Hey Jeff, do you have a GM, Ford, or Chrysler product. As I see it , it more likely that they would go out of business than Saw Stop. SS is doing great during the slump and with that innovative idea and if they can keep their P's and Q's together can only grow.
I don't think SS is in any danger of going out of business, it was more of a what if question I was posing.
don't get me wrong- I think it the concept is a great idea- and would buy one if I were in the market for a new saw.
btw, I don't own a Ford, GM or Chrysler because in general I think they have been building poor vehicles for many many years- by design- not due to poor workmanship- the quality of their cars just isn't what I want when I plunk down that much money (look at a domestically built Toyota or Honda- far superior). but this is a digression and a discussion that does not belong in Knots
Just let me add to the digression one little bit more. I bought the PM 66 about ten years ago so I'm out of the market too. At age 76, I'll take that chance. I do have a GMC - huge discount and a Dodge -friend trades regularly and we buy her old one. - good deal. Before I had a Toyota and just loved that thing but some one ran a stop sign and it took a huge depreciation all of a sudden.
How exactly do we know how well SawStop sales are doing? It isn't a public company, and hasn't to my knowledge published audited or even reviewed financial statements. Unless they have to answer to securities laws, answers to the "How are you doing? question don't have to be very accurate if the question is answered at all. Times are tough and companies still in start-up mode are likely to face challenges.
I would guess they are pretty safely past any liklihood of going out of business. They've introduced a new product (contractor saw) and, if the forums are any indication, have passed any initial skepticism about the quality of their main product, the cabinet saw.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
No need for a protracted discussion of this since none of us know the finances of this, private, company. But many companies with very good products go out of business for many different reasons that none of us can possibly know about due to them being private businesses.
I don't dispute they have a very good concept and product- I am thinking of replacing my 16 yr old contractor saw with one of their cabinet saws... btw you bought a different brand saw despite the virtues of the SS- one indication of "resistance" to their product. If they can't convince enough customers to buy their saw at a price point that makes sense for their business, the saw must be made cheaper (compromising quality) or not at all.
congrats on becoming an expert-
"one indication of "resistance" to their product. " Nope, no resistance here other than the lack of funds. I see the Unisaw (which fairly leapt off the pages of Craig's List screaming "Buy me! Buy me!") as the interim tool. I won't buy another table saw unless it's a SawStop. Give me another 18 months, see what I can $ock away.
"congrats on becoming an expert" Nope again. I specified clearly when I accepted Gina's invitation that I was not to have any "expert" icon or designation attached to my name. The guys in the group are welcome to carry that tag, as they are indeed experts. I'm just a friendly gal who'll help when I can, LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Who buys a saw believing they are going to run some of their own flesh thru the blade? Yet many people do. If at the end of your woodworking life you have never contacted the blade, the SawStop was a waste of money. If you happened to be unfortunate (perhaps even including stupid), it was probably the best money you spent.If SS does go out of business, you can run it without the cartridge in bypass mode.Greg
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Exo 35:30-35<!---->
I always enjoy these discussions as lots of us are coming from different places. I am nearing retirement age, not necessarily retirement, but that age.I have decided to buy a new table saw mostly to get better safety and a saw with a riving knife is a priority. Once I started looking at saws, I decided that I should go ahead and spend the extra to buy a saw that I can use for the long haul. Like lots of people have said, there are a lot of good saws out there and they for lots if different prices. Many of my friends have recently bought Steel City saws. And they are really nice. Grizzly, General, Delta, etc. all make really nice saws as well. I finally came down to deciding between the Powermatic PM2000 and the Saw Stop Contractors saw. Neither are toward the bottom of the pricing of saws. While talking to my wife today, she said it was dumb to buy a saw that I would not be happy with in two or five years and if I was going to want a cabinet saw two years from now, I should go ahead and get it now because the cost of the lesser saw would be wasted.So, now I am deciding between the Saw Stop Cabinet Saw and the PM2000.Fine Woodworking picked these two as the best cabinet saws in a recent issue. The Saw Stop is about $1,500 more than the PM2000. I went to look at them today and I am leaning toward the Saw Stop. It is the best selling cabinet saw for the past two years and it looks like a great saw. Now do I have the nerve to write the check.
Yes, I see you got my point. No accidents are planned or they wouldn't be accidents. And as you infer, most accidents are caused by us doing something stupid. Too bad we unfortunate ones can't have an instructor behind us at all times to let us know when we are about to do something stupid.
I also think, though I'm not certain, that if SS went out of business that the patent would be released and everyone could make a clone. I remember that during WWII when companies were busy making war material they would give the temporary right to individuals to reproduce parts for their machines to keep things going.
Edited 2/13/2009 10:48 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Edited 2/13/2009 10:52 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Sorry, but patents are not issued to companies but to the inventor. The inventor assigns it it a company. This often happens when the inventor is in a work for hire relationship with the company. Most companies assume the salary buys them all intellectual rights to your creative gifts. The inventor has a right to the royalties, if any, for the life of the patent. Patent life is not cut short based on the lifespan of the company to which it is assigned. I believe the rights also transfer to the heirs if the inventor dies.Greg
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Exo 35:30-35<!---->
I realize I'm on thin ice, but in the case of SS, the inventor is the company. In the case of heirs, if they don't make their claim, then it is public domain. Of course, inventions rights are only good for seventeen years, any way.
I have a nephew who works for Motorola, who in his first year or two made them 5 million dollars. Now, a senior scientist and reaching towards retirement, he has a very nice salary and retirement plan but I don't think he has any rights to the many inventions he has made.
Edited 2/15/2009 3:16 pm ET by Tinkerer3
I think in the United States, under current patent law, for patents filed on or after June 8, 1995, the term of the patent is 20 years from the earliest claimed filing date.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Thank you. My information goes way back, perhaps before some of our posters were born, so it isn't surprising that the laws have changed.
In my experience I've seen few accidents with getting fingers in the blade, actually I can't think of any, but very often I have seen kickbacks in which case the SS is no safer than any other saw.
Beg to differ with you. To date, not very many American saws feature a riving knife, a good help in avoiding kickbacks. Sawstop has this feature. I have two friends that have gotton cut by coming in contact with the blade within the last few years. Thankfully neither one was severely injured so having a Sawstop might not have helped them much
It's the seat-belt syndrome, not the Ford-Chevy thing. Pretty evident if you were to read the zillions of posts made in the past on this issue. To each their own, as they say.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"First of all yes I do have a tool addiction, always want the best. and it seems to cause some friction between the wife and I from time to time. (Cant imangine why, who would'nt want the bigest badest tool made."
If you want the best in class machine you should be looking at a Minimax or Felder sliding table saw, which will certainly cause spousal friction.
This might be a topic for Dr. Phil to tackle.
auto, I would seriously consider a used saw. About 10 years ago I was looking to upgrade my contractors saw for a new cabinet saw. I was all geared up to buy a new saw for about $1500 then. I just happened to look at the local newspaper and I found a used Unisaw for $400.00 with accessories. I went and looked at it and it was between a 1939-1942 Unisaw with a 1HP bullet style motor and the original fence. I purchased the saw and later found out it was a 1941 and Delta still has parts for it. To be honest it was the best purchase for my shop I have ever made. I have made several kitchens with it and have not ever thought of replacing it. I was also able to purchase other tools with the left over money. I think the only thing you get from a brand new saw from a used one is aesthetics and a higher price tag. I also think the quality of the old ones are hard to beat.
Just food for thought. Good luck finding a saw.
sandlcustom
If you are going to buy a new saw, then where that saw is built should be part of your decision. The new unisaw will be built in Tennessee by American workers. That should count for something.
"The new unisaw will be built in Tennessee by American workers. That should count for something."Not with me.Other, of course, than the obvious: that an equal value will cost less in another brand.
If you have the money available and want a solid reliable TS working straight 8 hours a day, buy a Powermatic.
NOTHING compares to a Unisaw!!!!!!!!
I have a brand new powermatic pm 2000 with a 50 inch accura rip fence 3hp 220v for sale. The saw has never been used I found this saw on a clearance sale because of a slight scratch on the right side of the cabinet. If you would be interested in the saw I would be happy to give you more info you can email me at [email protected]. or phone me at 303-842-4531
I would like to sell the unit for $2000.00 I know you can get the same saw brand new with out the scratch for 2700.00 delivered from amazon.com.
Let me know where you live and if you have a fork lift available. I would be happy to see what the shipping would cost to get it delivered to you. I will work with you to make sure you end up saving a a couple hundred bucks over what you can get it for at amazon.
Edited 1/27/2009 6:16 am ET by mathewameyer
Hi Mat
It sounds like a good deal which I would have considered however I decided to buy a little cheaper saw that I picked up last week. I ended up buying the new steel city granite top saw at a discounted price of 1300.00 dollars. It to was a scratch and dent at my local wood shop. Wish I would have known about yours a week earlier. oh well life goes on. I do love the new saw though.
Thanks again
Auto
Thanks for all the great input from every one I finally decided to buy a cheaper saw. I ended up buying the Steel City 3hp saw with the granite top and extension table. Bought it at my local wood store as a scratch and dent for $1300 dollars and used the money I saved to buy a clearvue cyclone DC.
Auto
How did you like your Steel City table saw ?
Q
The saw works great but compared to my old craftsman saw almost anything would seem better to me. The granite top is nice and I really like the riving knife. I'm currently hooking up my new clearvue DC. That will make it even nicer not having to clean up saw dust.
I'm glad that it worked out for you. I bought the exact same saw without the granite , but I had to return it because the blade was wobbling saw bad.
Q
Did you order another one or change brands
Auto
I had to change brand. I have a PM2000 now. I'm so glad that I got it.
Q
I too looked carefully at the PM 2000 but a salesman at a local store pointed me toward the new Jet Deluxe Xacta. It is virtually the same saw, built by the same company. Nice blade guards with riving knife and arbor lock. The Jet was $2099.00 but waited for a 15% sale corresponding with the Wood Show, so I got it for under $1850.00 and received 2- 50" Jet parallel clamps and choice of some other tools, I opted for the mobile base which sells for about $120.00. Like you I was upgrading from a 10 year old Craftsman. I studied the Griz too but the PM and the Jet have quite a bit more cast to the right and less board on the table extension. I'm quite sure any of the above mentioned cabinet saws would have served me well, but am very happy with my choice. Good luck
No.
You don't.
The SawStop has an electronic circuit to stop the saw blade. Accident can happen. What if the electronic circuit malfunctions ???. That could even be the worst situation, the user don't know and get real complacent.
Q
It would be terrible for the system not to work when you need it. As regards the getting more complacent because you have the safety feature, I don't think I would for two reasons,1. I'm a coward and as such give machinery a great deal of respect and do not do anything that I am afraid of. 2. I'm cheap and would not like the idea of spending $200 for a new cartridge and blade.
That sounds good. You'll be a few who own the sawstop. The blade should be clean and free of residue I think. It will probably be because of cutting wood will also clean the teeth.
On my set up, I made an overhead dust chute for both dust collection and safety reason. The dust chute basically covers the blade.
Q
Edited 2/20/2009 1:38 am ET by Quang
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