Replies

1. 
   sawdustmaker | May 23, 2004 07:25am | #1

   Are you sanding after each coat, or just the final coat? Therein may lie the problem ...

1. 
   bobbycass | May 23, 2004 04:07pm | #3

   I'M SANDING ONLY MY FINAL COATS, MY THOUGHT HERE WAS TO BUILD THE FINISH THEN WORK THE FINAL COAT AND GET A FINISH WITH A LOT OF DEPTH. 

   DO I NEED TO SAND AFTER EVERY COAT?  IF I DO WHAT GRIT SHOULD I DO THIS WITH? 

   THANKS FOR THE REPLY..

1. 
   sawdustmaker | May 23, 2004 05:43pm | #5

   You may get different opinions, but I sand after every coat, usually 280 or 320. This will even out the "highs and lows", and remove any dust particles or bubbles you may have. In my experience, flaws in the first coat that are simply coated over stand a good chance of being visible later on.

   All this being said, finishes are my "weak point", but I am learning from my mistakes, along with the help from those more knowledgeable on sites such as this. Good luck.

2. 
   hammer1 | May 23, 2004 07:32am | #2

   Take a deep breath Cass and relax a little. My first impression is you are trying to overdue it. Look at your last step first, waxing. If you are applying your wax by rubbing it on in circular motions and buffing off the same way to a surface that has been polished to the max guess what? Ever look at a highly polished car with the sun hitting it just right? Take a bottle of windex and clean your bathroom mirror, now go get your wax and buff the mirror. Filmy huh? The thicker the coat of wax the more haze. Not many scratches but the glass is a bit harder than laquer. Look at your finish prep steps. If you sand thouroughly with 220, you will have to sand even more with 400 to completely remove any 220 scratches and so on. Polishing to the N-th degree will make any missed 220 scratch stick right out if you get real close with one eye closed and the light is shinning just right. Brushing laquer leaves marks and an uneven surface, it's not a great way to start a perfect finish. If you actually spent hours and hours and hours with the pumice and rottenstone you may have actually had an effect in polishing. Most likely the felt or cleaning rags would be more abrasive just trying to clean up that mess. One small particle on a rag can undo all your hard work. Brushing laquer also has additives to slow the drying and allow a little flow, it is softer.

   You can get a great looking finish by wet sanding with the grain, straight piston action on your arm movement, to 800. Do every step with the grain not circular or arcing. For final scratch removal I use a low speed random orbit car polisher, new sheepskin pad and 3M polishing compound, Finesse II. If you want to wax do it very, very sparingly and with the grain. I pity the fool who ever uses that table, or worse cleans it. Maybe you should get a piece of glass to put on top!

1. 
   bobbycass | May 23, 2004 04:20pm | #4

   THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION.

   THIS WAS ACTUALLY MY FIRST TIME USING BRUSHING LACQUER AND I WILL TELL YOU PROABLY MY LAST.  MY GOAL WAS TO GET A HI GLOSS WITH A LOT OF DEPTH.  I HAVE BOTH WITH THE ADDED BONUS OF SCRATCHES.  I SEE YOUR POINT ABOUT LEAVING AN UNEVEN SURFACE, IT ALMOST LOOKS LIKE I WENT RIGHT DOWN TO SOME OF THE BRUSH MARKS WHILE SANDING. 

   DO YOU SUGGEST I START WITH A 220 OR SHOULD I START AND FINISH WITH THE 800 YOU RECCOMENDED?  AT THIS POINT I NEED TO DO PRETTY MUCH START OVER, SO AS A SIDE THOUGHT WOULD IT BE FOOLISH TO THINK I MIGHT GET AWAY WITH SANDING IT OUT AND STARTING OVER BY SWITCHING OVER TO VARNISH OR POLY? JUST A THOUGHT...

   I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE CLEANING ASPECT, I NEVER THOUGHT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SUCH A SOFT FINISH.

   THANKS FOR THE HELP.

1. 
   CharlieP | May 23, 2004 06:10pm | #6

   Let's back up to the application, before the rubbing. 

   Remember that lacquer is a solvent-based finish.  It doesn't put on layer after layer of film, like a varnish, but each layer "melts" into the previous.  If you are brushing a lot you may be putting brushmarks into the lacquer - all the way down to the wood.  I prefer spraying, but the key is to build the thickness, being careful not to disturb the base, keeping it wet enough to flow smooth and (as it dries) blend with the previous layers.  Flow it on - don't brush a lot.

   Should you sand between coats?  With a film-based finish, if it thoroughly dries you need to "scratch" the surface so the next layer will adhere.  With a solvent-based finish like lacquer, you do not need to scratch the coat to make the next one stick, but you may want to be sure that layer is smooth before building the next layer.  If I have a drip or drool, or if a fly lands on the finish before it is dry, this is the time to sand-out the problem - not later. 

   When I have a good coverage (often only 3-4 coats), and have removed any problems with 320 grit paper, I rub with plain 0000 steel wool, with the grain.  This gives me a smooth satin finish (or shows me that I need another coat). 

   I can be done at this point, but if I want a gloss finish, then I need to let the lacquer harden (it will vent solvent and get harder for a couple more days).  Then (and only then) do I work to higher grits - normally jumping to automotive rubbing combound (but I don't pretend to be an expert in high gloss finish - I have only done it a few times).  Keep in mind, also, that a plain cotton rag is roughly equivalent to 2500 grit, so for a small area you can just use a clean rag.  I am concerned about all the solvents, lubricants, and wax you seem to be using.  Less is generally better. 

   Lacquer is really easy.  Sounds like you are trying too hard. ________________________Charlie Plesums  Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood

2. 
   hammer1 | May 23, 2004 09:29pm | #7

   Cass there are many types of brushing laquer. Parks makes one and Deft is another. Deft and Parks however are totally different from each other although they are both nitrocellulose. Parks will dry almost as soon as it leaves the brush, Deft acts more like a varnish. With top coats more is sometimes less. Laquer if built up too thick will craze maybe a year later. Your scratches are probably caused by your polishing and are no where near 220 grade. I think I would try a light sanding with the grain using your 2000 paper with a little water and a drop or two of dishwashing soap in the water. 3M Finesse and some of their other compounds are expensive, $20 or more per bottle and a random polishing machine is $40 + -. If you have cars and boats and other things to rub on it may be a good investment. Waxes also differ from brand to brand, some don't buff that well leaving a haze. I use Eagle wet one for cars, etc. It will work on funiture but be aware it may contain silicone and future refinishing will be someone elses problem. It is always best to make samples on the same material before going to the real project.

   I finished a project this weekend, a tall cabinet. I sanded to 220. Put on one coat of polyurethane, sanded it lightly to 220. I buffed with 0000 steel wool and put on a coat of minwax wax and buffed. Very nice results and simple. Not comparable to a Steinway but better than most. Do not add anything to your top coat now, work with what you have. All abrasives leave scratches, the trick is to get them small enough with the grain so that they don't show to the naked eye. Hope this helps.

3. 
   KesslerCraftsman | May 23, 2004 10:36pm | #8

   I'm gently laughing at your dilemma..that's exactly what happened to me the first time I used lacquer..the problem being I just didn't rub it out enough...simple enough to fix once someone educated me re: the problem.

   I think that even 320 is to coarse for lacquer..I definitely wouldn't sand your lacquer w/220...  I'd sand every other coat with 400 and then let the whole finish cure for as long as you can..a few weeks if you can..and then sand with 600 through 1000 and then polish out with compound.

   If you do this right, you'll be able to see ONLY the swirl marks from polishing/rubbing out..and the wax will fill those.

   Good luck.

   Larry Pile

4. 
   goldhiller | May 24, 2004 04:34am | #9

   Cass,

   As was asked before......which brushing lacquer are you using? Are you thinning a bit or using it straight from the can? What's the relative humidity and temp in the finishing area? How long are you waiting between coats? Are you allowing a rest/dry/cure period after applying several coats or are you rushing all the coats in relatively short order? How long are you eventually waiting before you attempt the rubout of an eight coat build-up? These are questions that need to be answered if you'd like to get a handle on the problem.

   Despite the answers to the above............320 to 600 is a big jump in my book.

   (You can turn off the caps, if you like (please ?). We can hear ya just fine in small case. <G>)

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
1. 
   Sphere | May 24, 2004 10:24pm | #10

   Dude, ya gotta lose the caps lock.

   Are you wipeing off all the dust between grits? Blow it off or vacuume? clean rags..soft ,clean rags?

   What brand of abrasive paper are ya using? A lot of the cheaper stuff is not all that well screened ( a 220 may have a few specks of 150) ..These can all contribute to what ya got goin on.. 

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

1. 
   bobbycass | May 25, 2004 08:52am | #11

   Thanks for your help on my problem, I wasnt aware of the grit problems.  I do sand between coats but I think not enough.  I switched from oil to water for the wet sanding and it looks great already.

   Sorry about the caps lock.  A habit I picked up at work.