Few things in life get my liquids boiling like prima donna woodworkers asking other woodworkers to donate their hard earned money to no greater end than keeping their useless blogs up to date!
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/products-page/donations/
I guess some people have no shame…
Chris
Replies
Chris,
You used the term "prima donna woodworker".
What is your point?
What other type of woodworker is there?
Each of us is a legend in his own mind.
Each of us can work miracles. Some can even do M&T and dovetails.
What higher calling is there than "WOODWORKER"?
We are artists, craftsmen, entrepreneurs, and bull****ters.
Without woodworkers, no one would be able to sit down . No chairs.
We deserve the adulation of the masses.
You use the term "prima donna woodworker".
I refer to the same thing as "justifiable pride".
Mel
PS how was that for BS?
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
That was good but I still haven't received any money!Chris
Chris,
I thought you were supposed to send me money. OK, we'll each send each other $10,000. I glued a $10,000 bill to the back of a postcard and just mailed it to you. Please have your bank wire your money to my bank.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel..
You sent the WRONG bill! Salmon P. Chase is on the $10.000 bill.
Your bill pasted on the post card had a picture of Woodrow Wilson which I believe was a $100,000 bill (printed a few weeks in 1934).
I,d be happy to as long as you are willing to return a portion so I can donate it to the wood whisperer!Chris
Thier are those of us that are not good enough (yet) to be prima donnas, we are only wannabees. :)
Doug M
Doug,
You are being too reserved and shy and modest. You are a much better woodworker than I am. I would like to apprentice to you. How much do you pay?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I will give you half of whatever it is I (or you in this case) can get someone to pay minuse the cost of doing what ever it is you (or I) are doing. So I figure if we are really lucky we should make about $100 or so (a year). Think you can live on that? :)
Doug (wannabee) M.
Soooo what is that a Wanna Donna?
Threads such as this always surprise me. I know they shouldn't. Anytime someone is successful, be it on a large or smaller scale, bystanders will bash. I'm not sure if it's because they feel like they should have had the fortitude to do the same, or just because they have a hard time realizing they didn't. Take the energies you use to belittle others and apply them in a positive manner. Maybe you will be the next person to be successful. You get what you give.
and you will always be a wannabe until you say to yourself that you are a "woodworker".RayIf you don't have time to do it right the first time, when do you have time to do it over?
This is one thing i like about this forum as opposed to others: there aren't "monitors" erasing, moving, hiding threads while they huddle to think about what to do about controversial postings that do sometimes get a bit nasty. Hell, let people ramble (unless they ramble all over other people's threads that are clearly titled for a certain topic).
As I said back a few pages, the "donate" thing appears outrageous "as presented." Woodwhisperer, I think maybe you should rename it, or provide an explanation (if you haven't), like "This site is funded partly by donation..."
Mal,
That was good enough to start your own blog and ask for money! Jim
Jim,
I loved your response to me. It was so good, I just posted a message to ALL based on your suggestion.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel;
Well having read what you wrote I almost donated!
Jim
I don't know it's optional so you don't have to pay to see the content like some sites. So it's kind of like come on in look at what I got and support the effort if you like. Here at FWW you have to pay to get to some content up front. (Which I subscribe to and IMO it's worth it.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Hey, times are tough right now. I have no problem with someone asking for a donation to keep a free site going. I know nothing of this particular site, as I don't scope out the "how to" sites for woodworking, but IF it's a good one, with a serious following, then the folks who visit the site frequently stand to lose its content if the dude goes belly-up......right???
What irks me even more than "alms for the Poor" is people who expect everything to be free, and not have to contribute.
Jeff
Jeff.
I read your response to Chris. I think Chris was irked by "prima donna woodworkers" charging..... I don't like "prima donna woodworkers" period. I visited the Wood Whisperer site because it had a video on a topic I wanted info on. Other than that, I don't know anything about the person who calls himself the Wood Whisperer. Before the video got into the guts of the topic, I felt a lot of time was wasted showing the guy being served "hand and foot" by a good looking lady. Maybe it was just his way of doing humor, but it struck me as being "prima donna". I kinda like people who are self effacing.
I don't like pomposity.
Since I am getting old, I let myself get away with such petty likes and dislikes. I have no problems with paying for services. I believe you were focussing on that aspect of things. I think (but am not sure) that Chris and I were focussing on the "prima donna" effect.I have written to about a dozen well known woodworkers to get specific answers to specific questions. Some, like Chris Pye, Rob Cosman, and Glen Huey, have written back to me quickly, answered my question, and were very nice about it, and gave very good answers. As a result, I have bought some of their books. Some of the others have written back to me in very pompous tones. That didn't please me.I guess I can understand if a surgeon gets a bit pompous after saving hundreds of lives. But I can't understand how a woodworker can become pompous. Woodworking just isn't all that difficult. Anyone with an IQ of 100 can become a fine woodworker. Heck there are many good woodworkers here on Knots who have IQs lower than that. :-)Have fun.
Mel
PS Remember Leona Helmsly? She was a bit too pompous for me. (but then again, I don't believe she was a woodworker.)Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I, too, have no use for pompous people. My reply was simply to the matter of the asking for a donation. I don't have a problem with it. When I read the original post, it seemed that the topic of discussion was the discust at the action of asking for a donation. If I misunderstood, than so be it.
To be clear, I don't believe that the almighty dollar (or Euro, pound, peso, etc....) should play as large a role as it does in decision making. Unfortunately, we just don't live in that world yet. Perhaps, someday, our grandkids will place a higher value in the things that really do matter, like family, honor, trust, and the never ending theme of 'doing what's right!". I hope I live long enough to see it, but I doubt I will.
Jeff
Jeff,
I don't think you misunderstood anything. I might have. I was thinking that the sentence in question had two interesting topics -- begging and pompous woodworkers. You focussed on the first, and I focussed on the second. Who cares what the OP meant. THreads were meant to be interpreted. :-) English is a wonderfully ambiguous language. Thank god for that. If it wasn't for the ambiguity of the language, what would we do here on Knots? Talk about woodwork?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
for some reason my login didn't take this is NicoleSpag on The Wood Whisperer's loginHey Mel,It sounds like you watched the dovetails episode that we did a while back. So I'd like to clear up a couple things you said. I do not wait on anyone hand and foot. In fact that 'skit' was my idea (watch carefully and you'll see him waiting on me at the end :) and if you watch any of the other videos you'll see that we have a very tongue-in-cheek approach to everything we do. Check out Episode 4 if you want to see me in all of my glory :). Now, does that appeal to everyone? Of course not, but that is the beauty of the internet and content in general: you can 'change the channel'. And honestly if Marc and I aren't having fun, then how could we expect you to? Oh and as his wife, I can tell you that Marc is anything BUT a prima donna (in fact that made me laugh out loud when I read that :) Marc and I started the Wood Whisperer almost 2 years ago as a fun project, combining our love of technology, education and for Marc, woodworking. We never expected the videos and site to take off like they did and in order for us to continue to produce free content on a regular basis, we looked to sponsorship and donations. The funny thing about the donations is that the page was created because we were getting countless emails asking how peopel could support the show. And to be honest, if it wasn't for our viewers and readers believing in us, we would not be doing The Wood Whisperer in the capacity you see it today. So really, donate.....or don't donate. You're still going to get our podcast for free. The alternative is a subscription model. And to be honest, that holds very little appeal for us. Thanks for your comments and really this has been good for me to read. There has been a lot of people with us from the very beginning and understand where we are coming from and it's the newer folks that are just find us that may not have the full picture. So thank you to everyone that has and continues to support us. The show would not be if it wasn't for you.NicoleEdited 8/28/2008 2:10 pm ET by The Wood WhispererEdited 8/28/2008 2:18 pm ET by The Wood Whisperer
Edited 8/28/2008 2:19 pm ET by The Wood Whisperer
Hi Nicole,
Sorry I misunderstood. That is the only time I checked out your site. I was looking up some info on dovetails. All I wanted was some info, and it seemed to take a long time to get there. But you guys were just having fun. I wish you all a lot of luck and a lot of success. Don't take me too seriously. I don't. :-) Let me know if you ever want to do an episode on making bowls using power tools, eg chain saw blades on Angle grinders. Mel
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Jeff,
You mention that: "What irks me even more than "alms for the Poor" is people who expect everything to be free, and not have to contribute".
Ah ha! One must not adopt unrealistic or self-defeating expectations. Nevertheless I often hope for things that are free and avoid contributing for any amount of stuff I use. My experience gives the lie to that moneylenders' phrase, "There's no such thing as a free lunch".
Often I receive wood for no charge. Also, I have had (literal) free lunches, as well as breakfasts, teas and suppers. Of course I have also dished out the largesse, in one form or another, with never a thought for payment.
Somehow this all balances out - one gets and one gives but not according to any strict balance of accounts. There is a pleasing dislocation between who gets and who gives. Why "pleasing"? There is some kind of satisfaction in giving the lie to those accountants and their "life is nobbut book-keeping of the groat-exchanging" philosophy.
As to the demand for donations - if only it were unsolicited one might oblige. I find I cannot trust a beggar, no matter how well-dressed.
Lataxe, an antiaccountantararian
I don't like beggars, either.
I find myself more too often doleing out my services for nary a pittance. I have a weakness for discounting my services (mainly concrete business) to older folks, as I have always felt that we (U.S.A), as a nation, need to do a better job taking care of older folks, and making their lives easier. And when I do, the payment of actually feeling darned good about what I did far exceeds any monetary gain. I make it my personal mission in life to seek out contractors who prey on the old and feeble, and payback can sometimes, and often, be a bitch. Ah, but that is another topic, entirely.
Good day to you, Sire Lataxe.
Jeff champion of the old
AAAAAHHHH Jeff,
I see that you are an expert in cement, and that you give free work.Well, I need some advice. When we get a windy rain, water goes under the garage door and into the garage. I checked with a level, and found that the concrete actually goes up a bit as you go out the garage door. Is there a way of "sanding" it down, say with an angle grinder with the right end on it?THsnks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Check where the concrete floor meets the foundation wall on the sides of the garage floor. Has it settled across the center of the floor, or was it just a bad finishing job to begin with??
Most of the time when I get calls about this exact problem, it's because the center of the floor has cracked and settled. If so, then you need a mudjacking contractor in your area to come and give you a price for jacking it back up.
If it hasn't settled, and the front edge of the floor is just higher due to a bad finishing job, then you can certainly have the front edge of the floor ground down with a surface grinder. You can usually rent these at a good contractor's rental center, but the good ones are larger, almost like a floor sander, only they have diamond grinding discs in them. They work in much the same way as a wood planer, only for concrete.
If you need more info, let me know.
Jeff
PS You can send me a picture, which will better explain your situation. I can then advise you on what to do to repair it. This is, of course, a donation of information!!
ha ha :)
Edited 8/25/2008 2:15 pm ET by JeffHeath
"As to the demand for donations - if only it were unsolicited one might oblige. I find I cannot trust a beggar, no matter how well-dressed."Well said! Chris
Now here's a thing worthy of donation!43148.1 - How to help a highschoolChris
I find I cannot trust a beggar.. My wife did! And we were happy for many years. I begged her to marry me!
Edited 8/26/2008 9:36 pm by WillGeorge
It's a good thing there isn't anything worth looking at then - cause I'd hate to expect something for nothing!Chris
It is the free enterprise spirit that permits you to post your opinion openly and shamelessly.
By shamelessly I refer to the fact that you are using the resources of this enterprise to discredit another.
If you don't like the product don't buy it but show a little class in how you criticize.
Don
Actually, free enterprise is a theoretical (in that most economies are any thing but self-regulated) economic system that has nothing to do with ones right/responsibility to express their opinions openly and/or shamelessly. What I am really doing is taking advantage of the goods and services that I pay for, within the limits placed by the powers to be, to express said opinion in such a way that I receive a return from my investment. Said return being every ones responses... Chris
Nice.
Chris:
If the link that accompanied your post gets "your liquids boiling", then life around you must be very exciting! Maybe you could blog about it?
Surely, an informational blog, based upon voluntary donations, is the ultimate test of value delivery. If you as the user don't ascribe any value then you won't contribute, the author, on the other hand, has to work quite hard to deliver something that might open the old wallet, so to speak.
Wouldn't it be easier for you and your blood pressure to just browse on by? I am still not sure how you infer the "prima-donna" from the linked page.
Anyway, I must have go for a nap now.
Hastings
I really wouldn't want to bore anyone with my life! Although if I did, I'd be damn sure to ask for your donation! Yet somehow I sense that what I have to offer has no value to you...guess I'll have to work harder on that.Perhaps, what I should have focused my energies on is the concept that a guy who writes articles on the secret uses of masking tape (check out latest pop wood) has gained the attention of the national spot light. Surely, even in the world of low IQ woodworkers, there must be something else to write or read about? I guess its not so much about the value delivered to the end user...Chris
I guess some people have no shame...
I sort of fell into that class.. Bit by bit over along time... Now I'm so old nobody can upset me!
The wooodwhisper is pretty cool in my mind.. But just another woodworker.. If he can get money to help him brag a bit.. I'd wish him success! Hell, he's just asking! Not forcing you to do it.
Must be it's just me or my warped way of thinking but It seems to me that some topics seem to spiral endlessly out of control getting worse the longer they go.
I've been playing oops I mean working in the construction/woodworking field for well over 20 years.
I've always been a true believer in when things quit being interesting and yes fun its time to find something else to occupy my time.
I've never found myself getting bored or wanting to do something else as to where carpentry/woodworking is concerned. No matter what part of woodworking or construction, i've always found it fun and exciting and never fail to learn something new when doing it. However I can't say the same as to using the computer and checking out some of the responses and posts that some of my peers have come up with in the past maybe its just me but some how after reading some of the posts,I just feel it was time very wasted.
I enjoy this site and enjoy the majority of the posts here but like I said earlier some are just nothing more than Blah,Blah,Blah.
In this country we have free speech so we're obliged to have to put up with ignorance and yes dare I say stupidity. Maybe some of you don't agree with what I have to say but that's what makes this country so great, the majority of the time we can voice our opinions. In the same token we all so have the free will whether to read posts or not so remember,if you don't agree with what someone has to say, Move on to another post or at the very least,"Think " before posting a response."Please"
Jim at Clark Customs
Chris thanks, A forum with an ouch topic and photos, Mannnnnnnn.... I hate you.
I've been holding back since this post first appeared, but have to chime in.
I don't want to call Marc Spagnuolo a prima donna, nor do I want to question or comment on his woodworking abilities, his teaching abilities, his aesthetics etc. I will say that he has done a very good job of producing content that is of benefit to a lot of people. He enlightens and that is a good thing.
That said, it boils my blood, too, to see that site ask for donations! Give me a break!
Look, you either do a community service and contribute your time and knowledge to the broader good; in which case asking for donations to support your work is perfectly acceptable.
OR, YOU ARE A BUSINESS
Marc, you are a business. You brand yourself, do things for money, accept commercial sponsorships. You have no right asking for donations.
Asking for a donation is like saying you want me to contribute to your cause so that you can then sell my participation (demographics and psychographics) to sponsors, in the form of commercial advertising, so that you can make further bucks.
The Wood Whisperer is not a community service, grass roots organization untouched by the capitalist system and all that comes with it. It is a commercial endeavor - a business.
I say drop the donation thing and either allow free access so that you can acquire the demographic and psychographic profile you need to sell advertisement, or charge a subscription fee for people to come on to your site. It is unethical, in my opinion, to solicit charitable contributions so that you can pursue commercial profit with it.
Public Television and Radio have been playing this game for years. "Oh please, help us survive, we need your support, we need your viewership, we need your money!" Then they are in the pocket of every commercial sponsor they can get their hands on and syphon off the 'publicly' funded content into commercial pursuits. I wonder where all the dollars go for all that Muppet and Sesame Street merchandise that have been scanned across the registers of Toys are Us over the years? Ever take a look at the commercial advertising content of This Old House magazine?
I have no problem with capitalism. I practice it daily. I have no problem with non-profit community organizations helping the broader cause by doing away with the profit motive. Just don't try to do both at the same time and profit from it.
Even when you try to hide it, like PBS does, it's just a little too slimy for my taste.
Just one man's opinion.
Frank
Frank,
I hope you sir can hear the applause,Your thoughts were well thought out and well spoken so consider this your standing ovation with a few whistles thrown in to boot.
As far as being one mans opinion,I think you speak for the masses and for those of us that are not as eloquent as you. So for what it's worth let me be the first to say"Excellent Job"You are a credit.
Sincerely,Jim at Clark Customs
Thanks for the kind words, Jim. Care to make a donation??
JUST KIDDING!
I think all of you are misconstruing the term "donation". a: the making of a gift especially to a charity or public institution
b: a free contributionThanks to Merriam-Webster.Although, yes TWW is not a charity nor a public institution, it doesn't need to be to receive donations. The small solicitation that is posted on TWW's site is like the ones on countless others. If you feel the content is worthy of it, as I do, you can give an amount you see as its value to you, WITHOUT SETTING A MANDATED ANNUAL FEE.Regardless of that, running a site takes money, online isn't as free as it should be. There is no freedom of speech online you have to pay for it. The applets that are used in broadcasting podcasts, forums, chat rooms, and blogs are generally not free if you want the quality that people demand; neither are the cameras, lighting, etc. You take in revenue from any source you can, INCLUDING your viewers. If you don't, you're an IDIOT.Any and all donations, which honestly may not be the best chosen word due to its apparent misinterpretation, to the TWW is NOT tax deductible as it is to charitable functions and is reportable INCOME.Now, that I have vented that, a long time withheld rant. I'll give you something else to think of. Pick up any magazine (besides WoodSmith and ShopNotes) and count the number of ads that are in them. Now add up the revenue that is generated there with their inserts, classifieds, and pages and pages of ads. Yet they still want you to purchase them.Now before you go wigging out, do the math a bit. WoodSmith and ShopNotes put out a magazine that costs about $5.99 at the newsstand or $24/year if you subscribe (6 issues at about $4 an issue, delivered, and less if you get two years). The mags are about 50 pages long but NOT ONE SINGLE ADVERTISEMENT! They are able to put out great detailed content for the SAME price to the consumer and no ads.But that isn't my biggest gripe. The biggest one is that even if you are a subscriber to all these over magazines (FWW, Pop. WW, Amer. WW, etc...) they put out specials editions on a semi-annual basis and the subscribers don't receive them. The only way to get them is at the newsstand. Shouldn't we, as loyal subscribers to their ad filled publications, be entitled to the extras? With the ad money these publishing cretins are sucking in on page after page of ads and then charging us even more to buy, don't you think we should get the special releases as well?LQQK
Agreed. I donate to TWW and will continue to do so. I benefit from the website and that's the bottom line for me. It costs money to operate Marc's site and I doubt he makes enough from the sale of hats to pay for it.
Perhaps "voluntary contribution" is a better term.
That's silly. Only the mob asks for contributions that aren't voluntary. I don't think Mark's request has any suggestion of requirement.This is my personal signature.
My response was to:
I think all of you are misconstruing the term "donation".a: the making of a gift especially to a charity or public institution
b: a free contributionThanks to Merriam-Webster.My suggestion to use the term "voluntary contribution" is as opposed to an "involuntary contribution," such as a sales tax.
What's silly is that we have expended so much time trying to determine whether or not donating or voluntarily or involuntarily contributing to a fellow woodworker's enterprise is a worthy cause.
I definitely agree that the this entire thread is quite silly. (So I'm a bit ashamed of myself for contributing to it.) However, my point, perhaps made a bit to snarkily, is that I don't think the contribution needs to be qualified. Most people think of a contribution as something freely given. Taxes, on the other hand, are clearly something we don't give freely. But I get what you're saying. So let's leave it there.
This isn't expressly for you, but for everybody. Lay off Mark, if you're giving him a hard time about this. He doesn't deserve it, because he's not doing anything malicious. And he's certainly not begging for money. As he pointed out, the business model he is using is very common on the internet. And he has done it far better than most.
Unfortunately for Mark, when you put yourself out into the public, you're going to be criticized. The criticism is often harsh, and sometimes based on a complete lack of knowledge of how things truly are or work. The anonymous crowd out there in cyberspace feels no compunction about attributing motivations, plots, and malicious intent to persons they do not know and could not possibly have enough information about to form any reasonable opinion of. But that is one of the costs of putting yourself in the arena. There's always a heckler who thinks he could do it better.
This is my personal signature.
Edited 8/29/2008 11:18 am ET by MKenney
Well said. Thanks!
Frank:Your presently boiling blood appears to stem from the fact that you see donations and a business as mutually exclusive. And that there is something inherently wrong about soliciting donations while also accepting sponsorships. Why are subscriptions, per se inherently better, as you imply?Are not these simply business model choices? You appear to be freighting these with your own assumptions about their relative moral value, whereas they are simply reasonable choices on the part of a purveyor of knowledge. I find it difficult to follow your logic on this one.There are a lot of things to be outraged about in this life (e.g. the TSA's creation and administration of the no fly list); but the Wood Whisperer's business model surely cannot be one of them?Cordially,Hastings
I find it difficult to follow your logic on this one.
Hi Hastings,
You seem like a bright guy. I'm sure you do follow my logic; you just disagree with it. And that's ok. I respect that.
Woodwhisperer not only has sponsors, it has a store. It literally sells things for profit. (Not just WW tees and hats. I mean tools, squares, clamps, etc.) It is clear from his website, that Marc is a for profit woodworker, refinisher, teacher and author.
Commercial enterprises do not solicit donations. They solicit investment. They come out and say, we have a business venture that we think can be profitable. We need financial support to make it happen. The investors fund the enterprise, share in the risk and hopefully share in the gain down the road.
We all get to have our opinion on this, Hastings. If you feel it is ok for an entrepreneur to go out and make his or her fortunes on the back of someone else's donations and then not share the upside, then perhaps you could share your justification for that.
I think I've stated my position.
Respectfully,
Frank
Ministry often gets a bad rap for openly soliciting funds. To be fair, missionaries could not function without the money required to travel to far off destinations, secure living arrangements, and pay daily living expenses.
Political parties solicit money--we even have the option of having a dollar donated on our annual tax returns to finance elections. Dinners are often thrown with the understanding that the meal will cost you hundreds if not thousands of dollars for the benefit of a candidate who has at least a 50% chance of being defeated in the election.
All manner of businesses curry our favor through enticing advertisements and offers of "buy one, get one" or percentage off coupons.
Likewise, all manner of websites seek to separate us from our cash. Some are blatant scams cleverly designed to deceive the unwary while others simply ask for donations.
The choice is always ours as to whom we will honor with our money. Even with an Oprah type bank account, you could not possibly support everyone who asks for our cash or credit.
If we look just a little, we may always find a worthy cause, and if we look more closely we can see those causes that we simply cannot bring ourselves to support.
Chris, I'm with you on the original post. That is outrageous as it's presented. But, it gives me an idea.
"Please donate to Sykesville. I will give you all the advice you want if you do. My paypal account is "[email protected]"
This is Marc now.Normally I try to stay out of things like this simply because the OP typically has an axe to grind. And feeding the troll is never a good thing. But for the reasonable folks who might be reading this thread and walking away with the wrong idea, its very important for me to clear some things up. Yes, we have a button for donations on our site. I do not actively ASK for donations personally, or in my videos. The link is on the site and that's it. And in fact, when people email me to ask how they can support the show, I usually point them to one of our affiliate programs so they can actually get something they need, while supporting the show at the same time. The Wood Whisperer is run on a very new, but very common business model. And it is one that is very common amongst some of the more popular podcasts. Here are a few examples.
http://www.twit.tv/
http://www.geekbrief.tv/support
http://www.htguys.com/
http://www.myextralife.com/?page_id=8082All of the above have ads and sponsors. Some are even part of a podcast network and receive support from there as well. And they all rely on viewer support. Not saying there is a right or wrong here, just pointing out that this is a very popular business model. Since the support in terms of advertising and sponsorship is no where near valued as high as other forms of media, most of these shows feel that it is morally and ethically acceptable to accept donations.The irony here is that we are having this discussion on Knots. Lets look at FWW's business model:
Owned by a large publication company.
Supported by Ads.
Subscription model for print magazine.
Subscription model for web access.And contrast that to my business model:
Corporate support
Small amount of ad revenue.
Occasional donations.This is not meant to bash FWW. I think their model is perfectly fine and represents a great value. But as you can see, I choose NOT to have a subscription model. I put the stuff out there and let people donate when necessary. Do you feel it would be better, smarter, or more moral/ethical for me to start charging subscriptions?? Personally, I believe in this new business strategy and would like to keep offering my content for free. I think its a model that most folks appreciate. The image that folks like Chris are painting here is not only inaccurate, but uninformed. And as always, when someone questions the integrity of me or my business, I feel obligated to defend it. After, if we don't have people's trust and support, we don't have a business.
Mr Whisperer,
You must not be casting that "troll" accusation about so freely or getting all hurt and indignant just because someone criticises something about your website. No one attacked you personally; they merely disagreed with a small aspect of your business model.
Lataxe, pricking at an ego that may be swelling up a bit.
So let's get this straight. You think Marc calling someone a troll is offensive, but Chris gets to sucker punch Marc in an open forum? Are you kidding me? This is too far, even from you Lataxe. Marc answers the phone and answers his email and does all sorts of stuff for woodworkers for free. He doesn't ask any of those folks for money. But if you want to donate something, he's made it easy to do. And that makes him a prima donna? There's a wonderful zoo in Cape May county NJ. Donations only. The Philadelphia Museum of Art is donations only every Sunday. Arrogant self absorbed institutions? They need their ego's pricked by you perhaps?Marc and Nicole are solving the problems you and others here complain about. They provide free woodworking information, focus on skills and safety, and make it fun for a younger audience desperately needed in woodworking. Their free videos are better than most TV shows I've seen.These folks, dedicated to woodworking and woodworkers, have been treated outrageously here. I think you and Chris and maybe Mel owe these folks an apology or better yet, just send them a check.Adam
I agree with Adam, what Marc and Nicole are doing takes a good deal of courage - there are few of us that care to be filmed or photographed and put up for public viewing, and even fewer that care to do that for the infinitesimal financial rewards that go along with woodworking as a career.
I'm not sure Marc or Nicole would want to hear this, but no matter how successful they are at what they're doing, nor how many care to donate to their site, this is not an enterprise that will provide a comfortable financial existence. Even Norm Abrams is not a wealthy guy, and he's arguably the woodworker with the most name recognition on the planet.
Adam,
You're mistaking my snorts of incredulity at oversensitive, "He called me a bad name, mommy" hooting (allied with the a bit of name calling in response) for some sort of criticism of Mr Whisperer's WW stuff or his website content. I merely note that he apparently feels he is beyond criticism - a bit like your good self really. I'm know you're all too familiar with the "I'm a woodworking saint telling you all my wonderful lore for your own good" syndrome.
In fact, I've nothing to say about his site, the content or the methods he uses to obtain cash from it. I don't mind if he asks for cash to support it; nor do I mind a critic pointing out that the enterprise is commercial and that it therefore seems a little peculiar to ask for money to support the surrounding adverts and such. It's only a discussion albeit an animated one (the best kind, surely; although I know you don't care for "disagreements" yourself, sensitive chap that you are).
You WW self-publicists must understand the nature of the public, which is not the kind and loving personality of your mother or your pet dawg. Oh no. If you're in business, some customers will carp and complain. Oh dear, diddums. You'll get over it when you've wiped away your tears and blown your nose a bit.
Lataxe, enjoying the steam coming from various ears.
Reading your last few posts in this thread I'm reminded of a Roman Candle firework that turns out to be a dud. It is sad, especially if it was the last one in the paper bag.
Please don't prolong the disappointment.
Edited 8/29/2008 1:47 pm ET by BossCrunk
Pan,
It must be the lack of cash flowing into the "get lataxe a new thesaurus" fund. Send a large donation now.
Lataxe, just fizzling and spluttering.
All,I would like to show my support for the Wood Whisperer.
The greatest compliment you can pay a person is to copy them.
He wants money for writing about woodworking.I want money for writing about woodworking.
I am a "regular" here on Knots. I post a good number of messages.
I am now retired and I could use some more money to support my woodworking, which I only do so that I can make these posts to Knots.SO I am asking you all to send me a voluntary contribution if you read my Knots posts. Like the Wood Whisperer, my writing is "free" for you to read. But if you don't send me money, I may not be able to continue my woodworking, which will mean that I will have nothing to say in my posts on Knots. (Of course, many would say that that is already true. :-) Indeed, I suggest that every member of Knots request that the others send them voluntary contributions. This does not have to cause us to send out a lot of checks. We can just make mutual agreements with each other. Since we each owe each other the same amount of money, we just assume the debt is paid. MelMeasure your output in per board foot.
Mel,
So, to what address can I send my Canadian Tire money?
(Canadian Tire money is a small monetary reward for shopping at the store, about 5 cents for every 10 dollars you spend. It is redeemable only, of course, at Canadian Tire)
Edit: I have a couple wooden nickels too.
Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 8/29/2008 2:03 pm by flairwoodworks
Chris,
I wasn't expecting as much money as you are thinking of sending. I think you are overestimating my worth. What I want from you is a carving lesson.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The man has every right to defend his business. The initial post was totally without merit, an absolutely classless attempt to belittle and humiliate the owners of a respectable business venture.To what end? You have stubbed your tongue on this one Lataxe.Don
Yes.. All us type 'A' men have that problem...
But I got over it as I aged to a wrinkled old man that babysits every day! Now a type 'D' or softer... Better life all around!
What exactly is it that makes my opinion uniformed? I'm pretty sure it doesn't take a degree in business to see your business model is doomed to fail. Assuming success is your goal. Put ten people in a room and tell them they can have something for free or if they donate something. Just how many of them do you think are going to donate. More on this later...Lest anyone be confused, I can freely admit that you are doing a good thing. Any way to attract a generation of woodworkers to the art is a good thing. Yet you must ask yourself if you are really in this to help others out (keep on asking for donations) or in it for a true profit (let those corporate sponsors roll right on in!). Can you imagine a for profit radio station accepting money from advertisers and at the same time asking for money from the people who listen? Maybe you can but I cant.As for your success - While you may be pushing the envelope with your media, Im not sure your pushing the envelope with your technique. I've surveyed the site and it seems most is directed towards the beginner. And all the tool reviews - informative - but am I wrong to think your reviewing the tools that your sponsors may give to you at the least a reduced price? Where's the benefit to be gained there? Why not use some of the money donated to purchase other tools and make it a level and useful playing field?Ethics - maybe the heart of the matter, maybe not. I'd have to agree with others and suggest that just because others do something that doesn't make it right. Of course when the majority does it thats an entirely different question altogether.In closing (from me at least) - thanks for taking the time to explain yourself. I recognize it wasn't necessary and commend you for your efforts. I look forward to one day watching either your publicly funded show on PBS or your ad laden show on DIY.
Edited 9/15/2008 11:30 pm ET by hdgis1
Just how many of them do you think are going to donate.
On nice summer days, I sit in the park to eat my lunch. There is a street performer that juggles and such. He doesn't charge for his performance, but instead asks for donations. He seems to do alright, given the number of Loonies and Twoonies ($1 and $2 coins) that get thrown in.
In 2007 Radiohead released an Album and allowed people to pay what they wanted for it. Go to Wikipedia and look for In Rainbows. It says that a survey of 3000 people that downloaded the album 2/3 paid something for it with the average price of 4 pounds(? - British). Furthermore there was a subsequent box release of the music which also sold well.
His goals seems to be to position himself as a known Woodworker, and woodworking instructor. Given that he currently is contributing to Pop Woodworking, and has done articles for FWW online... I think he's doing rather well at attaining his goal.
You have to realize that taking example from Buskers and Rock Bands to demonstrate sound and ethical business principles doesn't make your case very convincing.
Mark's own defense of "...look, these other people on the internet are also doing this, so it must be ok, right..." (I paraphrase) also isn't very strong. (One could make a case for ANYTHING if it was ok because others on the internet are doing it.)
When a case has to be made by citing street performers and marginal rock bands and buttressed with "all the other kids are doing it!" it is, in my opinion, a weak case.
The best cases being made in this thread are the ones paying tribute to Mark for the excellent work he does and commending his efforts. I am actually in that camp. I have great respect for what Mark does with The Wood Whisperer. Hey, he's a nice Italian kid from NJ with a jones for woodworking and an entrepreneurial spirit - he reminds me of me! (OK 20 years ago...)
All the cudos and all the high praise for Mark and his work are different from the debate on his asking for and accepting donations. It's wrong to step into the money-making arena, taking sponsorship dollars from advertisers, accepting gigs with for-profit publications, selling and brokering the sale of goods and materials and generally branding and building the brand "The Woodwhisperer" while still asking for and accepting donations.
Mark and the Woodwhisperer are on the way to becoming a big thing. I wouldn't be surprised if television folks aren't already talking to him and that there are big deals, speaking engagements, product endorsement deals and the likes in place or in the near future.
This sort of commerce - profitable, capitalistic commerce - takes the enterprise outside of the boundaries where seeking donations is an acceptable practice (in my opinion.) The Woodwhisperer will grow up when it stands on its own two feet and thrives as a commercial enterprise, serving the woodworking community.
Frank
Frank,
I think you should have read the message I was responding to. It had nothing to do with business ethics. hdgis1 believed that the business model was flawed, since nobody will pay for something when they can get it for free. I posted two examples of people doing just that. My post had nothing to do with business ethics.
However, please explain what is ethically wrong with my two examples! While neither is the best way to maximize your money, I don't see how they are unethical.
Regarding Marc's ethics... I don't really see how he is being unethical. He's not hiding the fact that he a sponsorship, nor is he hiding the fact he's got a paid gig, and he's not activly begging for donations... In fact prior to this thread I'd didn't even know he was. All he's doing is leaving a link for those people who wish to support the web page to do so.
See my comments on Post 31 in this thread. It's been going on a while.
Frank,
I know I've been following it for a long time. I find the veiws expressed in it laughable. Marc outlined his business model in post 43, while his wife chimed on post 40. Prior to that the ethical police (including you) were publically bashing Marc for the first 40 posts or so. Talk about questionable ethics.
I fail to see how asking for voluntary support is unethical. He isn't tricking or forcing anyone to give money. Nor is he activly canvassing. In the end Marc runs a very expensive webpage, and puts in a large amount of energy and time into helping other people. Sounds like a real unethical guy to me.
Buster
Buster,
I am NOT publicly bashing Mark.
I am questioning a for-profit entity requesting and accepting donations to pursue personal profit. "Buddy can you spare a dime so I can go make a million?"
I think I've gone out of my way to state that I have no personal grudge with Mark and that I respect what he does in every other way. I've also gone out of my way to state that this is my personal opinion.
If you feel it is OK to ask for and accept donations so that a business can pursue profit and wealth that does not get shared with the donators who supported it, then you have right to feel that way and state your case.
When you call opposing views 'laughable' and lump my position into some fabricated collective you call the "ethical police" and when you build your case citing examples of bucksters and marginal rock bands; when you imply, as you have that my questioning the practice is unethical; when you state that he is not actively canvassing when there exists a website with a donation option, you kind of lose some credibility, Buster.
...when you build your case citing examples of bucksters and marginal rock bands...When you ignore examples that don't fit your idea you'll never get the point. Radiohead is a major band, or at least was in my high school days (ha ha). A busker is no less a businessman than someone with a more traditional job. You can put them down, but it still doesn't change the fact that they are doing nothing unethical.You say Marcs says 'Can you spare a dime so I can make a million'; but I don't see him asking at all. I've been watching him since FWW online mentioned him and until this thread I've never noticed the tip area. Just a few banners, ads, and he would mention the amazon store link occasionally. That said it doesn't surprise me that there is a tip page, and I don't find it the least bit offensive. As I said, there is no deception involved.
Buster,
You write: You say Marcs says 'Can you spare a dime so I can make a million'
I did NOT attribute that quote to Marc. I used it in a generic sense to illustrate the general concept. Here's exactly what I said.
I am NOT publicly bashing Mark.
I am questioning a for-profit entity requesting and accepting donations to pursue personal profit. "Buddy can you spare a dime so I can go make a million?"
And I didn't ignore your examples. I said they were weak. To most, that is self evident. If you insist I explain why, here goes...
A buckster exists on the margins, working on undocumented cash transactions and does not follow traditional, accepted business practices of any kind. They exist in this way because they cannot exist in a formal sense by selling their performance and recordings OR they simply choose not to comply with those standards and are free-spirited, anti-establishment types. Do you think that $2 you give the street performer gets reported as income? Gets taxed? Is he insured? Does he have to live up to the rules and regulations of a regular business?
This is why I say your comparison is weak. I don't say it to be malicious toward you. I say it because you are pulling an extreme example from the margins as if it's some kind of "ah ha!"
If the street performer 'makes it' and goes 'legit,' do they still beg for money? Take the furthest example from a street performer... Does Eric Clapton perform with a bucket in front of the stage and ask you to put some cash in it to make him richer?
At some point on that scale between street performer and Eric Clapton, there is a line. When one crosses that line, engages in commerce, and begins to seek personal profit, gain, wealth, from their pursuit, it is no longer acceptable to ask people for donations to further pursue that profit,gain,wealth.
When businesses reach that point they seek 'donations' in the form of loans (for which they accept an obligation to repay with interest) or in the form on investment capital (for which they promise the investor a share of the profits/loss.) They don't put out their hand, or put a bucket on the ground while they sing and dance.
(And before you say that Marc isn't a beggar and doesn't put out his hand and doesn't put out a bucket, let me state that I don't think he's in that league. I use this example because it was you who compared him to a Buckster.)
I could type six more paragraphs to explain the rock band thing, but to save us all, just apply the ideas I've already projected, and consider that one should never cite the business practices of a rock band (marginal or otherwise) as exemplary.
Frank
I did NOT attribute that quote to Marc.
I wasn't making a "quote", I just added the 'ticks' for empahsis.
buckster exists on the margins, working on undocumented cash transactions and does not follow traditional, accepted business practices of any kind.
Hmmm.... Doesn't follow traditional business models... Sounds like internet businesses, and in specific blog based business. I also disagree that the business practices are not accepted.
Beyond that, you keep bring these up as examples of ethical business practices, but I brought them up as examples of people voluntarily paying for something they can get for free. You've pushed me into defending these as ethical, when it was not my original intent. Though I still don't see how operating outside of 'normal and accepted' business practices makes things unethical. (Provided they are done in a transparent manner.)
Your argument seems to rest on the idea that if someone has another means of making money they shouldn't ask for donations. If you limit your definition of donation to charity, then yes I agree. But try to look at it in the broader definition. The donation in this case is a substitute for a paid subscription service, if you find value in the material you can voluntarily support the web site.
As a side note: Have you ever run an internet business, Blog, BBS? Have you ever been self employed?
For the record, Buster, I own and have owned as the sole shareholder, a for-profit corporation for many years. I employ over 20 people. We've gone through good and bad times, worked hard, played by the rules, raised money the hard way and built a successful business.
I have for-profit and non-profit clients. I am in business to make money, but regularly contribute and/or severely discount my services for non-profits. I also volunteer my time and and make charitable contributions to worthy causes.
I am passionate about woodworking. I am passionate about business and feel I have a responsibility as a member of both communities to help hold those communities to high standards.
If you want to keep pushing forward a position where we are going to lower the standards of both communities to that of bucksters, beggars and the business practices of rock bands, that's your right.
I'll be here trying to raise the bar and hold the communities I care about to higher standards. To the extent I can contribute, I will.
You state in your last post that "the donation in this case is a substitute for a paid subscription service, if you find value in the material you can voluntarily support the web site."
That argument only holds true if it is a viewer supported product. In the case of the WoodWhisperer, your viewership becomes capital; capital that gets used by the WoodWhisperer to sell advertising to sponsors who then take over some control of the content, indirectly or directly.
If you provide the sponsor with verifiable demographics and psychographics from readers/viewers who pay for a subscription, it is more valuable than if it comes from unpaid subscriptions. It's easier to have a lot of unpaid subscribers, so you take the big, though less valuable, number to the advertisers. And they pay WW money. In effect WW is selling your viewership and at the same time asking you to pay for your viewership - but not officially, because then their numbers might drop of they went to a paid subscription model.
Magazines do this all the time - except they don't ask for donations. They do free subscriptions to an established list, sell the exposure to that group to advertisers, then, when they can, go to paid subscription.
It's a tough transition to make. You have to hope that when you go to paid subscription, you will retain enough subscribers to satisfy the advertisers. Otherwise, the revenues you generate on subscriptions can get eaten up by plummeting ad sales.
If WW was truly a viewer supported site, without advertising or commercial pursuit, donations would be absolutely acceptable. But donations as a substitute for subscription is, in my opinion, not acceptable when you are in it for the profit.
Frank,
So you have no actual experience with non-traditional business models, or more importantly web based business?
If you want to keep pushing forward a position where we are going to lower the standards of both communities to that of bucksters, beggars and the business practices of rock bands, that's your right.
Again, I said nothing about the ethical practices of any of these groups until you questioned it (and you still have not explained what is unethical about them), and I never brought up beggars at all. Again: I brought these up as an example of people paying for something they can get for free. You can continue to try to drag them into the discussion to prove a point if you want. I can come up with other examples in software, and in my own prior experience if you want. The point is, that if people see value in something they will pay for it, even if they could otherwise get it for free.
I'll be here trying to raise the bar and hold the communities I care about to higher standards.
So your argument is that you'll appeal to some perceived higher moral authority...
If WW was truly a viewer supported site, without advertising or commercial pursuit, donations would be absolutely acceptable. But donations as a substitute for subscription is, in my opinion, not acceptable when you are in it for the profit.
What about the site as a commercial pursuit, but no advertising? Your view on what the WW should be is very narrow. You seem to have a certain business model in your mind that can not be deviated from.
I think you really need to give some credit to the consumers, and take into account the evolution of such sites. It seems to me, and it has been my experience, that such websites evolve from a viewer supported to a sponsor supported. This is a fairly natural process, as people see a site they get value from they are willing to donate. As the number of viewers increases and sponsors are brought in, consumers naturally move away from donating.
In the end he's not doing anything illegal, he's not doing anything deceptive, and he's not being coercive. The link is there for those that see value in the information they receive. It's completely voluntary for the users.
Buster, you're a trip!
How in heaven do you extrapolate what experience I do and do not have? That's a heck of a statement you lead with:
So you have no actual experience with non-traditional business models, or more importantly web based business?
Yes I know it's a question, but it's rhetorical and it's a cheap shot, consistent with the kind of stuff you're throwing around here. So tell us, Buster, how do you come to make that assertion?
Then you say: You can continue to try to drag them into the discussion to prove a point if you want. I can come up with other examples in software, and in my own prior experience if you want.
Buster, you brought the street performers and rock bands into the discussion; I didn't drag them in. You are the one who used them relative to this subject. That's not my opinion; that's a matter of record. If you have other examples in software, why not articulate them to support your position?
And when you write: So your argument is that you'll appeal to some perceived higher moral authority... I have to ask, what does that mean?
I've stated my position pretty clearly and used examples to support it. You may disagree, and I respect that, but you then argue without bringing any additional meaningful content to the debate to support your argument. Instead you use unsupported rhetorical statements and take cheap shots.
Let me ask you a question. Kindly elaborate on your statement: websites evolve from a viewer supported to a sponsor supported. This is a fairly natural process, as people see a site they get value from they are willing to donate. As the number of viewers increases and sponsors are brought in, consumers naturally move away from donating.
Specifically, please articulate as to why it is that consumers naturally move away from donating?
Thanks Buster.
Frank,
It was a cheap shot. I'm sorry.
The experience you presented, really is fairy limited to a classic model of a business. I can respect that, and the model is still very valid even in the internet age. We are clearly of different generations and while I'd personally be inclined to follow you business model, I respect and understand Marcs.
I believe there is nothing wrong with voluntary support, and there is nothing wrong with Marc having a link available. As I've stated in the last few posts: Marc is upfront with it, he's not being deceptive, nor is he being coercive. I hate appealing to the masses here, but this business model is nothing new and is used all over the net. I think it's part of the free info culture that really started the net.
Buster, you brought the street performers and rock bands into the discussion; I didn't drag them in. You are the one who used them relative to this subject.
As I pointed out in the last few posts: I brought them up as examples of people paying for something they can get for free. You are the one that questioned their business ethics and used them in am argument against WW. An argument that was extremely poor, since you've never explained what is unethical about either.I've stated my position pretty clearly...
Your position is that because Marc is for profit, he should not accept 'donations'. But from your posts you seem to limit the meaning of donation to 'charity'. In the end someone who donates to Marc feels there getting value out of the information he provides.
You say that I have not brought in any meaningful content, but neither have you. In the last post you said your passionate about Woodworking and Business and that you'd like to keep them at a high standard (I don't have the post in front of me, sorry if I'm off). What new information is that? You're supporting your argument with your own opinion. You've talked a lot about 'voluntary support' (donations) being unethical because he's for profit... but I still don't get why. If you want to convince me address what I've said about Marc be open, not being deceptive or coercive. This is after all a voluntary support, if you don't want to do it then don't.Specifically, please articulate as to why it is that consumers naturally move away from donating?
Users will see that Marc has other forms of support. It's the same reason I don't give my change to rock bands, but I do give it to buskers...
Frank:You said, "It's wrong to step into the money-making arena, taking sponsorship dollars from advertisers, accepting gigs with for-profit publications, selling and brokering the sale of goods and materials and generally branding and building the brand "The Woodwhisperer" while still asking for and accepting donations."Why is that wrong? You appear very definitive in your statement!The internet represents a new and different channel for business calling for different methods of compensation. BTW, do you also think it's wrong for a restaurant to ask for donations to help pay for your waiter? I cannot distinguish between tipping in the one case and donations in the other.Is the New York Philharmonic wrong to charge for concerts while also seeking donations?I feel that you and many others conflate the word donation with some charitable endeavor, in which case it would be a charitable donation, e.g., giving to hurricane victims. A donation is simply a voluntary payment for value perceived. Now it would be wrong to cloak your donations as charity while pursuing a for-profit business venture, but The WW is clearly not doing that. It's all very transparent and reasonable.Hastings
Maybe this point was made early on and I missed it, but one thing I haven't seen pointed out in this discussion is that comparing the WW to museums, philharmonics, zoos, etc., is a false comparison. They are all NONprofits. The WW is a FORprofit.
People generally (generally I said) equate donations with nonprofits. When I go to the hardware store I am not going to make a "donation." I will pay a fair price for the goods I receive. If the store can't make a go of it, they close. Nonprofits can only survive if they receive enough donations or funds to survive.
There is a lot of similarity between NON and FOR profits. But, there are also distinct differences. In a forprofit the owner(s) can keep everything for themselves. Not so in a nonprofit. There can be no "private inurement" by law. The IRS explains it as follows: A section 501(c)(3) organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, such as the creator or the creator's family, shareholders of the organization, other designated individuals, or persons controlled directly or indirectly by such private interests. No part of the net earnings of a section 501(c)(3) organization may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. A private shareholder or individual is a person having a personal and private interest in the activities of the organization.
It seems the use of the word "donation" is what has tripped so many up. Maybe the WW could come up with a word or phrase that is not confused with the nonprofit world.
Alan - planesaw
I could perhaps take his site a little more seriously if it did not conjure up this memory.
THE HORTH WHITHPERERA guy calls his buddy, the horse rancher, and says he's sending a friendover to look at a horse. His buddy asks, "How will I recognize him?""That's easy; he's a midget with a speech impediment."So, the midget shows up, and the guy asks him if he's looking for a male orfemale horse. "A female horth."So he shows him a prized filly."Nith lookin horth. Can I thee her eyeth"?So the guy picks up the midget and he gives the horse's eyes the once over."Nith eyeth, can I thee her earzth"?So he picks the little fella up again, and shows him the horse's ears."Nith earzth, can I see her mouf"? The rancher is gettin' pretty ticked offby this point, but he picks him up again and shows him the horse's mouth."Nice mouf, can I see her twat"?Totally mad as fire at this point, the rancher grabs him under his arms andrams the midget's head as far as he can up thehorse's fanny, pulls him out and slams him on the ground.The midget gets up, sputtering and coughing."Perhapth I should rephrase that. Can I thee her wun awound a widdlebit"?
................................................
SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES...THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING, BUT...THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS
Hastings,
The NY Philihormonic is a 501C3 non-profit organization who files a Form 990 which is open to public inspection and available here http://nyphil.org/pdfs/about/2006_form990.pdf.
Wait staff are employees, not businesses.
The comparisons are simply not germane.
Thinking about this more, I don't see the problem. The "please donate" is on the site itself, it's not as if requests to donate posts are being put up by Marc on all the woodworking boards or that some general plea is going out.
If you'd never visited the site you would have never seen the donate button in the first place, right?
Edited 8/29/2008 12:46 pm ET by BossCrunk
Well put. I'm really starting to like your point of view.
Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 8/29/2008 1:56 pm by flairwoodworks
Looks pretty voluntary to me. I believe his show is available free, right? Sort of like public radio. If you value the content, you can support. If not, or if you like it and are a cheapskate, you can keep your wallet in your pocket.
What's the big deal?
I've followed Marc and Nicole since they started. Marc had a very lucrative career in Biotech. With a big push from Nicole he decided to follow a dream, something most of us never do. No this may not make him rich, but he loves what he does and the people he gets to help.I posted this earlier and didn't mark it for ALL...I hope you all will think about this."Threads such as this always surprise me. I know they shouldn't. Anytime someone is successful, be it on a large or smaller scale, bystanders will bash. I'm not sure if it's because they feel like they should have had the fortitude to do the same, or just because they have a hard time realizing they didn't. Take the energies you use to belittle others and apply them in a positive manner. Maybe you will be the next person to be successful. You get what you give."
Off topic, but...
I think Ben Franklin said that education is the one area where people want less than they pay for! From my experience teaching college students, I'd agree. Of course there were exceptions. The good ones always wanted more than they paid for (and I gladly gave it).
Adam,
You are easily shocked, inya? You remind me of a maiden aunt I used to have (she's long dead) born a Victorian and anxious to impose associated rules, which were many and arcane not to mention highly judgemental of others (all of them).
Incidentally, if you're ashamed of your Knots membership you could always cut along to somewhere else, where they have a milk monitor, prefects with canes and even a Matron with carbolic soap.
Or you could grow up and leave your schoolboy self behind.
Lataxe
PS Internet forum avatars are not real people. They are ...... Internet forum avatars.
Adam,
I read your message. Were you being facetious? I couldn't tell. You said that you have never been more ashamed to be a Knots member. You must get ashamed very easily, and for silly reasons. If you were being facetious, then your message was pretty interesting. I just scanned the messages in this thread, and they look innocuous to me -- just people having fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Adam,
Not everyone knows the Wood Whisperer.....so don't take the comments personally.
On the other hand I have been downloading weekly the Wood Whisperer Pod Cast shows for about a year now and really enjoy it.
If anyone out there hasn't gotten into Pod Casts your in for a treat. There free, their either video or audio and they deal with wood working - or any other interest you may have ( my other one is Astro-Physics and Quantum Mechanics, and yes there are Pod casts for those topics also!).
Hay its more fun than listening to the radio!
Best,
Jim
I'm not exactly sure what you guys are jibber jabbing about but it seems to me that this donation page is merely voluntary. If Marc wants to have a way for people to donate and not have to reply to every email that he gets requesting away to help him out that's his business.
Do you guys really think Marc is making a #### of money form advertising that he's actually making a profit? Cash flow he gets from ad revenue is probably pennies compared to the expenses he incurs from running his website/podcast. I give the guy credit for at least trying. If nothing else, he's a trail blazer in the new medium for woodworking education. Every single woodworking magazine is trying to breakout through the internet either through online videos/subscriptions or weblogs to bring subscribers to their website.
I don't know Marc, never met the guy, but I respect him for his vision of the future of woodworking education. The future is the internet and The New Yankee Workshop, American Woodshop, Router Workshop, etc... is the old way of bringing woodworking education to the general public. Only time will tell how successful he will be.
Lawdy sakes but there are some cynical folk about... I can't see a problem with ole Woodwhisperer at all. Nobody is forced or even tricked into donating and there is even a choice as to the amount.
I can name one or two sites where all appears "free"-until an unpleasant spider emerges when he believes a victim is on site. Philip Marcou
Edited 8/30/2008 4:31 am by philip
Maybe the conversation can improve if we stop bashing/praising the Wood Whisperer per se, and move on to a discussion of the phenomena of accomplished, professional woodworkers transforming into something else. Be it teacher, author, podcaster, celebrity or magazine editor, many professional woodworkers have left the shop behind and now spend their work hours doing something other than working real wood. Marc S is just one example of that phenomena. The move is not inherently good or bad, but is something that is on the increase. The internet has met the number 1 hobby in the US, and interest in all things wood is at an all-time high. The down side is that some very good professional, productive people move out of the making, and just sell classes or themselves. This is easier since there is no solid product beyond what is promoted, and no commission or such to continually chase. Some folks have made one or two notable pieces, promoted them to the enth, and ride the self-created wave as accomplished experts. The move to talking wood instead of cutting wood is thinning the ranks of those professional WORKING woodworkers that can be emulated and serve as role models for the next generation. If we all get paid to talk about wood, then who will work it? Dave S
Dave,
I don't speak for myself (woodworker in training), but this isn't really a new phenomena at all. For decades, many accomplished woodworkers have supplemented their income by going on the teaching or lecture circuit. As a matter of fact, this applies to many other professions.
I think I've read more than a few times how little renumeration woodworkers or furniture makers receive over the course of a year. A few accomplished woodworkers or furniture makers, as I like to call them, have been interviewd and have indicated such.
To survive and to continue to do what we love, we need to supplement the income from commisioned pieces somehow. Writing books, articles and teaching are excellent avenues. I doubt very much these furnituture makers don't perform much woodworking, they simply juggle their time well and accomplish all of the above.
Something else we need to consider which I personally have experienced as I am sure others. Writing an article or teaching a woodworking related subject actually improves your own skills and causes you to dig deeper into a subject, much deeper than you would otherwise. This is the real phenomena in my opinion, and the direct result is that accomplished woodworkers continually improve their techniques and skill sets since they need to go out .. (book,article, teaching, Internet)and the expectations are high that they understand the subject fully.
The method of accomplishing this has historically been through books and magazine articles along with teaching in a classroom setting, but the Internet is quickly becoming an increasing force to be able to reach the intended audience. Also, the Internet is an fairly easy vehicle to master. so it only makes sense as to what we are seeing today with accomplished furniture makers on the Internet.
Norman
I guess I'm one of those characters you mention Dave. True, I spent 30 years at the hard nosed production end of furniture making and design. But as my career progressed I moved further and further into the realms of management, theory, authorship, mentoring and teaching.
I don't make very much nowadays to meet customer deadlines, but to a greater or lesser extent I organise, plan, manage, control and direct the furniture making efforts of about 20- 30 less knowledgeable, less experienced and less skilled people. I also write on the subject of woodworking for money, research the subject in depth and do a lot of networking within the industry. I get involved in things like competition judging and furniture societies and do consultancy work.
I'd love to still be thrusting at the edges of design and making for myself, but I'm not keen to take the lack of money that goes with that role. So nowadays I do furniture design and making mostly for fun, at pretty much whatever speed I feel like, but even that's pretty darned fast. I exhibit and sometimes sell the pieces I create. In the last few years I've even sub-contracted out some or all of the construction of my designs to meet orders I can't make due to time constraints. I guess I'm really just an amateur woodworker nowadays, ha, ha.
The rest just seems to me like a fairly normal career path. You wouldn't surely expect a highly skilled engineer to spend his or her whole working life just changing the oil in cars. You'd probably expect a smart engineer to move on to higher roles and get away from being a lowly paid grease monkey. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 8/30/2008 6:54 pm by SgianDubh
Rest assured Dave, there are still plenty of folks out there who make a living working the wood. We just don't have a lot of time to post on websites. I still hunt and peck on the keyboard so it takes me a while to type out my thoughts. I usually forget what I am trying to say since the letters on the keyboard are all jumbled up. I certaintly couldn't make it as a computer website woodworking guru.I still have to work wood the old fashioned way.Although I am not opposed to donations.Beer or cash, it's all the same.F.
Hi Mvflaim;
I sent a note to Mel just to pull his leg. In another post I mentioned that I have listened to Marc's Woodwisper pod cast for over a year and I am a fan. I listen to him every week!I take it you are a fan too!
Jim
Hi Jim,
I've travelled over there a couple of times but I don't check him out too often. I've seen a couple of videos but the ones I saw were real basic in nature, entailed more for the beginning woodworker. However, apparently he has an interview with David Marks somewhere on his site that I like to check out. I do think he is creative in his podcasts. He doesn't just show you the "how to" of woodworking but livens things up by joking around and having some fun at the same time. A lot of woodworking shows and videos are so damn boring they put me to sleep. I actually lose interest half way through because the host has absolutely no personality.
To be honest, I am envious of his success. Apparently he's only been working with wood for the past five years and has already created a successful video podcasts with thousands of followers as well as write in woodworking magazines. Seeing him suceed makes me want to give it a try. The only problem is I have no computer skills.
Mike
Mike;
The Whisperer is basic stuff, but I use it while I am riding in the car and would prefer to be in the shop. He also has some good pod casts, like the one on turbine sprayers.This is a new field Mike and the cost of entry is next to nothing. It's not like radio or TV where you have the federal government involved - and the band width is virtually free.All you need is a sidekick to do a podcast or technical work for you. Interestingly the side kick doesn't have to even reside in the same state as you reside! (I listen to a few podcasts and one person is in India (the country, not New York) another is in Portland and another in Chicago. They talk over the internet, one of the guys edits it and BAM! your live!Right now there is no better skilled pod cast on woodworking available! Not even FWW or PW have one. (I take that back on magazine does have a pod cast, but it is again simple stuff like tuning a plane or using a router.)You could find a tech person over the internet, set up a simple corporation over the internet and be broadcasting live in a month!
I'd listen and a bunch of guys that are interested in more changing subjects would listen.....heck even the Whisperer would download you.Not pulling your leg, This field of podcasts will overtake some traditional media, that I suspect is why FWW has discovered the WW.
Jim
I highly doubt that Finewood Working will get nailed for anything anyone says on this forum. The standing rule on internet use is at this point that if you do not control what everyone says or does on your use, then you are not responsible for it. This is why ISPs do not get nailed when users do something wrong. However one or two ISPs that have tried to control what their users can do on their service have been nailed. Basically if you provide a space and then let others user it for their use then you are saver then if you tried to keep things under control. The idea here being that the person who owns a stage/hall and rents it out to someone is not responsible if the person that rents it gets up and insults someone. It is only when they appear to have control over something (like if they edited all the post here or strictly enforced rules that you could say they allowed the poster to libel someone. Right now they can stand back and say they are just allowing others to post their ideas/comments.
If every sites or forum that had someone libel someone on the internet was held responsible for the post we would soon see the end of all forums. As it would get to hard for someone to have to monitor all of the posts and the users would all get ticked off about not being able to express themselves with out some some lawyer having to approve everything they try to post.
Doug M
All that matters is that you don't see the harm in it.
Mel is hardly anybody that talks Hate. As this old man reads his posts OFTEN...
I'd think YOU have the problem!! And then some!
OK, so go after me! I got nothing left to give anybody except for my grandbabies.. LOVE.. I have NO money you can get!
Sir, I think you may need to sit in the dark by yourself for several days and think about what you just posted!
WillGeorge,
"Mel is hardly anybody that talks Hate."My advice to Adam comes from a song:"Take it easy, take it easy
Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy
Lighten up while you still can
Don't even try to understand
Just find a place to make your stand and take it easy."But giving advice to Adam is like pushing that proverbial rock up the hill and it keeps rolling back. It is best to just ignore Adam. He still hasn't figured out that he is his own worst enemy. Always remember the words of Napolean: "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." I don't think any of us ever wanted Adam as an "enemy", but it is Adam's choice. For a long time, Lataxe used to call on his good friend, Charles, who goes by many names, to have some fun with Adam. Charles, who is quite clever, used the technique of just throwing out a little bait. Adam couldn't ignore bait. The result was highly predictable. I guess that John Wayne, the great philosopher, said it best:
" A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do." It is best to ignore bait.But this time, Adam was looking to point out the bad guys who are doing bad things. When he put me in that category, he did little more than put a spotlight on his own lack of credibility. I don't have much of a reputation as the wearer of a black hat here in Knotsworld. Have fun. Woodworking is better than looking for people with specks in their eyes that are smaller than the beams in our own. My eyes are full of beams. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Looks like this has turned into the Frank and Buster thread.
Yes. Though I would have to take exception to the idea that Radio Head was anything but exceptional! It's nice to have someone with the business experience to put my thoughts into a coherent fashion.Chris
Looks like this has turned into the Frank and Buster thread.
Excuse me! That would be the Buster and Frank thread! :)
Oh, all right. You were making more sense anyway.
Dang!
I lost top billing. This is exactly what broke up Martin and Lewis.
I lost top billing. This is exactly what broke up Martin and Lewis.
We could just combine our names.... The FrusterFive2000 thread.
Buster,
I have not had much time lately to post here.
Let me say, "good debate!" and we can wrap this one up, having both made our cases.
So, what are you working on in the shop?
Frank,
Fair enough. For what it's worth I enjoyed the discussion.
My shop time has, for almost year, been dominated by renovation activities. We were blessed with twin boys last year, we ended up moving to a larger house. So I've slowly be finishing the basement for a live in nanny (that arrives today), and of course I've been working on putting the shop back together.
Now that the basement is 99% complete I can focus on the shop. Last weekend I painted the floor with some Rustoleum epoxy, and this weekend I have a buddy coming over to finish the mudding and taping of the drywall. I hope to start painting the following weekend, and to move the machines back into position on the 11-12 weekend. Maybe I'll take some pictures and chronicle my progress...
11 months of renovation... it's time to have fun.
Edited 9/25/2008 10:39 am by Buster2000
Buster,
I know the feeling. Last year I did a kitchen rennovation by myself. It really took a lot more time and effort than I'd expected. The challenge was fun and the result was fantastic, but I'd swap it for time in the shop making furniture any day.
I've been working on technique over the last few months (turning, veneering, handwork, finishing...) so I can take on a Federal piece I have had in mind. It's going to be a learning process, but I'm having a ball with it.
Good luck with the shop construction.
Frank
If you like woodworking shows, the wood whisperer has some very entertaining podcasts available for free. I have downloaded many hours of his shows from the I-tunes store and watched them while traveling; it really help pass the time at the airport and on the plane. I am in the process of building one of the projects Marc featured and am extremely pleased with results.
guy makes show. guy says i can either force people to pay for this or i can provide it for free, with the option of contributing financially if they CHOOSE to. there is nothing else to it. why is this still confusing some people?
"why is this still confusing some people?"Because it's labeled a "donation". Many people are hung up on semantics, and associate "donation" in this country with charities, non-profits and churches. In that sense, many might (and have) take offense to the terminology. Perhaps the words "contribution" and/or "donation" would be better replaced with "voluntary subscription - help pay for the content you receive for free".That said, there really is no ethical/legal issue involved UNLESS Marc doesn't report those donations as revenue for a for-profit business.
"Donation" and "contribution" are synonymous. I don't see one as more or less suggestive that this is a charity. You may be right that some clearer description would be helpful, but in my mind switching the words would not do anything. While it's possible to be confused, I think anyone who might contribute is likely to have actually watched enough videos to understand the situation. I'll bet the people who contribute are thinking not that this is a charity, but "I sure hope these guys don't quit doing this. Maybe I can provide some incentive for them to keep going." There are practices that are a lot more deceptive around, not that I am suggesting that's a good thing, just that they are much more worthy of outrage. Anyone making any charitable donation should check out the recipient carefully to make sure the money goes where you expect. I think that a small business on the internet, whose biggest challenge starting out is to be noticed, is very analogous to a street performer who provides entertainment and then requests that people pay what they think it was worth. The Wood Whisperer has recently gained enough sponsors and prominence that they probably don't need to operate this way any more, but where is the harm?
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