Replies

1. 
   Alan | Jul 06, 2003 02:47am | #1

   Wanda,

   What kind of pine to use depends largely on the look you're after.  You can get clear pine, or pine with many or few knots.  I made a coffee table out of good old utility grade (read "many knots") pine, and I like it; not everybody does, though.

   Pine is not the toughest wood there is.  It's a softwood, of course, and as such it won't be nearly as durable as oak, maple, walnut or any other hardwood.  But pines are not all equal.  White pine and southern yellow pine are tougher than most others.  (I hope someone else chimes in here.)  I've found that a good hard varnish can do much to strengthen wood--at least make it a little less ding-prone and less splintery.

   You can get pine in just about any thickness you might want.  Thickness, these days, is all pretty much "finished dimension";  i.e., a 1" thickness is really, 3/4" and so on.  The same is true for width, so the "finished dimensions" of a 1"x6" would really be 3/4"x5 1/2".

   Unfortunately for all of us, the days of inch thick, twenty inch wide clear lumber are long gone.  To get the width you want you'll need more than one board.  You don't need to glue the boards together.  I've seen many examples of table tops two or three boards wide where the boards are not glued together; they are held together with a "clamp"  (which most people call a "breadboard end").  This can be quite attractive, especially where the unglued joint is emphasized with a chamfer or bead.

   However, if your design calls for the top to look like a single panel, then you will almost undoubtedly have to joint the edges.  For a good glue joint, one that will stay together, there must be a very close fit between the two boards.  While it's not unheard of, it would be miraculous to find two boards, each with a perfectly straight edge, ready to be joined into a panel; finding three such boards would be miraculous.  Also, the edges on this kind of stock are often rounded just a bit; you will need to get rid of the rounded edges for the panel to look right.

   With a little engineering you could make legs out of 3/4" stock.  For example, you could glue two boards together into an 'L' and use them for legs.  By
   "cross pieces" I'm assuming you mean  stretchers (which are the pieces that run between the legs, below the top) 3/4" stock is fine for stretchers.

   Too long!  Sorry.  I hope others will help, and correct me if I've erred.

   Alan

2. 
   forestgirl | Jul 06, 2003 07:18am | #2

   I think Alan is on the right track with yellow pine, and a little searching also leads to Norway pine as a hard pine.  Years ago, I bought a small table at an estate sale.  It certainly had the look of pine, but it was very hard and heavy.  I was in a buy-and-sell mode, with no inclination toward woodworking so I never investigated, but it may well have been yellow pine.

   Hopefully, Jon Arno will see this thread and contribute.  In the meantime, there is a company out there that sells, specifically, river-recovered pine, which may well have the wider boards you're desiring.  They might answer questions you have, in general, about pine.  http://www.heartpine.com/pages/woods.asp?pt=1

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   BG | Jul 06, 2003 12:52pm | #3

   Wanda,

   It sounds like the jointing of the boards has you a bit concerned?  It shouldn't, its not that big a deal.  A saw or router and a straight edge can get you very close...a little sandpaper and a block of wood can finish the job...just be patient, diligent and make daily offerings to the wood gods.

   I've done some nice functional pieces out 1" (3/4" in actuality) stock.  The top can look a bit skinny....so I have made my jointed boards a little long...and cut the extra length into two 2" strips.  The idea is to glue on to the underside of the top two long boards and two end grain strips...giving the top a 1 1/2" thick look...works very nice in oak.  I don't think pine would look less nice.

   For the legs, don't forget that there are 2x4 and 4x4 that can be carefully selected and provide a lot of different options.  Good luck

2. 
   Kevin | Jul 06, 2003 09:00pm | #4

   This reminds me of an old This Old House episode I saw several years ago. Hmmm.... or maybe it was The New Yankee Workshop. I forget which. Anyway, Norm found some recovered old pine that he referred to as "Rock Pine." Apparently it was used instead of the more typical Oak in aging barrels for some type of alcoholic beverage brewery. What Norm had was recovered wood from these aging barrels. Anyway... what caught my attention at the time was his description of this Pine as being very hard and heavy. As I recall it looked to be pretty clear - sans knots... very nice looking stuff! I've been curious about it ever since. But... living way over here in the Pacific Northwest I don't expect to be finding any locally any time soon. LOL

   Regards,

   Kevin

1. 
   DouglasABaker | Jul 07, 2003 07:45pm | #5

   Older stock generally is harder - I have some 100 year old recovered pine that is nearly as hard as any of the oaks I can buy today.

   The key is the growth rings - the more rings per inch, the denser and harder the material will be.

   I would suggest going for either an older pine, or a newer oak, etc - I think you'll be disappointed if you use "new growth" pine for furniture.  The first item dropped on it (even a plate from a few inches) will leave a nice dent...

   Doug

1. 
   Kevin | Jul 07, 2003 10:42pm | #6

   Maybe it was just some old growth Pine. It's been long enough that I don't remember too many of the details. But, I got the impression that what he was describing was a distinct species of Pine. Maybe Jon Arno will know.

   Regards,

   Kevin

1. 
   wendy | Jul 07, 2003 11:30pm | #7

   Hi,

   Thanks everyone for all the advice regarding pine. I'll have to learn how to joint the edges using my router for the table top. That should be a fun learning experience for me. I will have to visit my local hardware store later this week and see what I can find. I bet they don't have any solid birch. My uncle says that's a very easy wood to work with. I'll have to stick with pine since I want it to match the IKEA pine furniture in the cabin.  I'll see if I can find some yellow pine. But I think they only have clear and knotty pine. I'll have to stick with the clear if that's the case.

   I've never built anything out of maple, oak or mahogany. Most of my small wood projects have been built out of pine or spruce. I've heard that working with oak can be difficult. It requires very sharp tools. Is that true? Maybe when I become more experienced I'll attempt to make a bedside table/nightstand using oak. Think cherry would be nicer though. Anyways one thing at a time. I've got to write out a material list for the table.

   Wanda

2. 
   PATHFNDR | Jul 08, 2003 12:54am | #8

   If you're thinking of "moving up" to a hard wood for future projects, I would start with oak, for at least two reasons. Number one, granted oak is a lot harder that pine, but is comparable in hardness to the other woods you mentioned. It is a good hard wood to start out with. Second, while you are learning, you're pocket book will better absorb a mishap with oak, over the other woods, oak is cheap and readilly available for those unforseen repeat trips to the lumber yard. If a $30.00 piece of cherry gets cut an inch short, it's a lot more painful than an $8.00 piece of oak. Trust me, these things happen, we all learn from our mistakes. After 20 years of making dust, I still make 'em, although they are fewer and farther between and I still have all ten fingers.

3. 
   wendy | Jul 08, 2003 03:39am | #9

   Hi Pathfinder,

   Ok I will give it a try. I'll make my next project out of oak.  What sawblade would you recommend for cutting oak? 60,  80, or 100  tooth blade? The blade I have on my tablesaw right now is a delta 60 tooth blade. I'm just wondering if there would be too much tear out using this blade to cut hardwood. I've only ripped and crosscut softwood on the tablesaw.  When I finish my pine table I can get started on a nightstand.  I can't think of any other hobby as rewarding as woodworking .. except for gardening. I am doing something I've always wanted to do.... that is build my own furniture. Something I never thought possible. It's very challenging and I'm always learning new things.

   wanda

4. 
   jonsherryl | Jul 08, 2003 04:35pm | #10

   Wanda, I think IKEA is a Swedish line of furniture, made out of European softwoods. Most of their pines are yellow pines and the most common (Pinus sylvestris, AKA Scotch pine) is very similar to our native red pine (Pinus resinosa, AKA Norway pine.) It is harder than our western yellow pines, like Ponerosa, but not as hard or coarse grained as most of our Southern Yellow Pines, like longleaf. To match the look, you don't want a white pine, with its more mellow transition between earlywood and latewood. You want the harsher figure of the yellow pines, but one with moderate density.

   If you decide to stay with the IKEA look, though, I don't think you have to be so "botanically correct." My daughter has bought a few pieces of IKEA and what I've seen of it, it's basically utility furniture. In other words, designed for function and low cost...Not that I don't like the look, I do.

   You can easily get similar domestic pines in dimensions up to 1 1/2" thick (nominal 2") in the form of ordinary construction lumber. However, I think your bigger concern is that construction grade lumber is kiln dried for construction use. If you intend to use it in furniture, you have to let it acclimate to interior conditions and then remill it. Also, the kiln schedules used for construction lumber leave a lot of drying stress in the wood. This lumber is designed to be used in its existing dimensions and only cut to length...So, as you resaw it and shape it, it often has a tendency to distort. These problems can be managed (I've made a lot of pine furniture out of construction grade lumber...even old pallets), but you've got to develop some experience in terms of stock selection and joinery techniques to avoid the woes of "case hardening" and to accomodate movement.

   ...Might be a good learning experience. Cheap tuition, anyway.   

5. 
   PATHFNDR | Jul 08, 2003 08:25pm | #11

   Hi Wanda,

   I have used a 60 tooth blade for cross cutting and a 24 tooth blade for ripping for years. I always, ALWAYS make sure the blade is clean and SHARP and use a stabilizer. You'll be amazed as to how easy this stuff is to cut with a sharp blade. A dull one is asking for disaster, such as, kick back, vibration, poor quality cut, burning and the like. Take your time, feed slow, you'll actually be able to feel when your pushing too hard. I love the song of a well tuned saw, cutting hard wood, effortlessly. You will get little to no tearout, when the saw is "in" tune, as well. This is a very rewarding hobby, my house is full of furniture and I am always creating and replacing furniture as my tastes change.  I'm now designing cherry  tables with ball & claw feet, for the living room. This is just too much fun. I'm happy to offer any advise to someone as enthusiastic as yourself, just ask.

   Pathfinder