I was interested in constructing a piece very similar to the the 18th century Pennsylvania secretary on the cover of FWW Feb 2002, in a three part article by Lonnie Bird. The article describes using highly figured solid crotch figure walnut for tombstone doors and advises resawing solid flame figure walnut for 1/8 inch thick drawer front veneer. The doors require a panel 31 inches long by about 11 1/2 inches wide.
I have contacted 5 suppliers of exotic and hard-to find lumber from the ads in FWW and am unable to find anyone who has a suitable piece of wood. They all say that wood with this figure is sawn into veneer or sometimes left as large free-form slabs for table tops. When I contacted Mr. Bird by email, he admitted that he purchases whole logs and has them custom sawn. (This little tidbit of information is not mentioned anywhere in the three articles.)
My question is: First, does anyone know of a supplier who might have this material? Secondly, if not, can one use standard 1/28 inch crotch walnut veneer over solid straight grained walnut on a frame and raised panel door? In this case, the routed edge of the raised panel would not be veneered. Would one have to veneer the back of the panel as well?
Thanks for the advice.
Replies
J,
I built the Lonnie Bird Secretary. I made the upper case doors individual pane glass in the Chippendale style which is not what you are wanting to do. However, you may be able to use the service of Goby Walnut Products http://www.gobywalnut.com/ if you are doing the secretary in walnut.
I could not find suitable wood for the fold-down writing surface. Ultimately, I had Goby to make my drawer fronts and fold-down using crotch veneer over straight grained walnut. The result after doing the thumbnail was great. Also, to avoid having to make the breadboard ends on the fold down, Goby made up the blank using 4 bookend crotch veneer. The front is identical to the back. IMHO, the look is stunning. The veneer is over marine ply within a solid frame. The mortising for hinges and locks in addition to making the thumbnail edges worked great. Goby made my blanks oversized and i simply balanced the grain pattern in the veneer and cut them to size.
However, if you intend to use another wood, you may have to go to another supplier. Goby would probably be glad to recommend someone else.
Finally, if you have any questions about the plan, you may contact me by email and I would be glad to visit with you.
Edited 3/17/2004 8:49 pm ET by Coolbreeze
Did you buy Lonnie Bird's $350 set of inverted router bits to make the crown molding, or did you use some other method? Obviously I'd like to avoid having to make that investment for a one-time use. I think a lot of the cost is in the table saw cove cutter, which you really don't need since a good saw blad will do the same cove, only slower. What would you recommend?
Thaks,
Jay
I would like to build the desk featured in 154-156 editions. Like to ask you a few questions along the way. Any others that built this piece, I'd like to ask some questions if you have a little time. [email protected]
JAYST,
Go ahead and use the thin veneer. It won't cause you any problems, as the grain direction will be the same as your substrate. If you want to, you can veneer the back side of the panels, so they look like solid crotch, but it isn't necessary. Same for the drawer fronts.
Regards,
Ray
I just bought some 16/4 x 13" x 8' Cuban Mahogany Crotch.
It will be sitting on my shelf for a couple years and then ...
There is lots of nice crotch out there.
I believe if you tried Groff and Groff lumber, they would be able to supply the crotch walnut, but I would guess that it wouldn't be cheap.
If you go the veneer route, I can't see it working very well for the raised panel tombstone door, as there is too much that could not be veneered. Also, someone above said it would not be necessary to veneer the back side of the door, this is wrong, and would almost certainly result in a severely warped panel. You could easily veneer the drawer fronts without veneering the inside. I hammer veneer my work, and I first build the drawer then veneer the front and quickly dry assemble the drawer, the dovetails will stabilize the drawer front as the glue cures. When selecting the stock for the drawer fronts, look for quarter sawn stock, or if this is not possible, then put the outside of the tree to the inside of the drawer. This will also help control any minor warping.
Rob Millard
Rob,
As long as the veneer is thin, and grain direction is running the same as the panels, they won't be inclined to warp, the door frame would restrain them in any case. I've done this before with no problems.
Regards,
Ray
I'm surprised it did not warp,when you veneered only one side. I once made a small prospect door for a New York Butler's Desk veneering only one side. It warped so badly that it ended up in the fireplace, despite the fact that I used quarter sawn mahogany for the substrate. I stand behind what I said, and I would never try it again. I agree that the frame would restrain the warp, but I prefer not to have built in stresses in my work.
Rob Millard
Rob,
How thick was your prospect door? Was the grain direction of the veneer the same as the substrate's? I've seen thinner pcs warp or curl (Chippendale mirror crest for instance), it seems to me that's partly a result of the introduction of moisture into the side of the thin stock that gets the veneer as well as cross-grain application of the crotch veneer. I don't see the application of a veneer with grain direction aligned as much different from a lamination of solid stock to solid stock.
Re the moisture thing: My experience with hammer veneering is limited, but it seems to me that by the time the veneer is stuck down, it is pretty well saturated with moisture. I am more comfortable with titebond, thinned slightly with water (5% or so). I apply the glue liberally to the substrate, then lay the veneer on that and squish it around a bit before aligning it and applying pressure. I count on the thinned glue to wet the surface of the veneer enough for a good bond, a little bit of squeeze out makes me happy. I don't have the problems with the glue bleeding through the veneer as I did when I painted the veneer and the substrate, and if I work fast enough, don't have problems with the veneer curling from being wet on only one side. The bond is plenty strong as far as I can tell from inlaying or otherwise working with the veneered panels I've made up. In my imagination anyway, it seems that the veneer, if put in clamps while it is still absorbing moisture, will be under some compression stress, which will relieve itself after the clamps and cauls are removed, and things dry out.
Regards,
Ray
The door as I remember was about 8" tall by 6" wide and 11/16" thick. I made this piece in the days before I switched to hammer veneering, so it was done with white glue and a caul. The grain direction of the veneer was the same as the substrate. I find it just easier in all cases with thin panels to veneer both sides, but you seem to be able to successfully
veneer only one side.
Rob Millard
Rob,
"you seem to be able to successfully veneer only one side."
Well...I didn't mean to go that far. In the case of an unrestrained panel, like your door, or a card table folding top, I'd want to veneer both sides. I've veneered several panels for frame and panel doors on just the show side, though, lots of drawer fronts,and not had any trouble with them. No call backs yet anyway. (Maybe their owners think they're supposed to cup, as it makes them "look old"? ;-))
Couple years back, I built a linen press for a client, the press had wide doors in the top sect with flush, veneered panels. The original piece's panels had shrunk and pulled away from the stiles. I used 1/4" plywood for the panels, two pieces per panel glued crosswise to one another, and was very careful to balance the veneer on the front with same on the inside. So far, so good.
Regards,
Ray
JAYST, you might be interested in three videos in which Lonnie Bird explains various aspects of the secretary.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/wvt037.asphttp://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/wvt038.asphttp://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/wvt039.asp Ruth DobsevageTaunton New Media
I called Groff and Groff and they told me that any piece of lumber that has crotch pattern for 30 inches (like those doors) would have to come from a tree about 36 inches in diameter. He said that after that FWW article came out in Feb 2002, he had a list of about 15 people requesting the same thing, and still has the waiting list. He shared my frustration that FWW publishes articles like that where a piece of rare, spectacular lumber is used, but you can't get it. He said that Lonnie Bird actually sells crotch walnut from his private stock to students that take his classes on how to build this piece.
Hello,
I too am building the featured Secretaries by Lonnie Bird.. I don't doubt what Chris Groff is saying about the crotch Walnut for the raised panels... Lonnie seem like a very enterprising fellow..and those have to be trophy pieces of lumber for sure.. Here is a short story about that piece and Lonnie..
I e-mailed Lonnie to complement him on the finish on the piece, asked what kind of finishing schedule he used on the featured piece, I was looking for just general information stained with red brown dye, used oil and then shellac or something along those lines...
Lonnie offered me a place in his finishing class at his school, would love to go but vacation time is at premium.. Needless to say he answered the question with another question that would generate some dollars.
So if you e-mail Lonnie what supplier he got piece of crotch walnut 12 x 33, he probably offer to sell you some, if you go to the class where they build that piece..
Best of luck
Jayst,
Sorry I sent you on a dead end, but I thought Groff & Groff would have it. I have one other idea, that I hope won't be a wild goose chase. When veneer is sliced, there is always ####board left over, that was held in the machine as the knives sliced off the sheets of veneer. I've seen these in mahogany on Ebay, and from Flamingo Veneer, but I would think there are walnut ones out there somewhere. The ones I have seen are about 5/8-3/4" thick so they are on the thin side, but would work.
Rob Millard
Rob,
No reason to apologize. Every time I talk to one of these guys I learn something. I also contacted Goby walnut and they advised doing the piece out of veneer. He aslo said it would be very rare to find a 30 inch long crotch. I will probably do it out of veneer. I have ordered from Certainly Wood in the past and they supplied a good quality product. Goby has Western Walnut crotch for $10. / sq ft, but I want to check prices elsewhere. What do you think?
Thanks a lot.
Jay
Evening guys,
Jay, you might want to check out this link, I think they may be able to come up with what you're looking for:
http://www.cswoods.com/csw_searchproduct.htm
They've got some awsome stuff.
Steve
Thanks. I've spoken to them and they also tell me that crotch walnut or crotch anything else, is almost never more than 16 -20 inches tall because it is by nature, a triangular section of the tree where the two main branches split from the trunk. A 30 inch narrow section of crotch as shown in those doors illustrated in FWW is unheard of. I have basically decided to make the piece out of veneer. I do appreciate the suggestion.
Jay
Email me if you like; I might have some walnut crotch available.Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
I thought that veneering would look odd, but I just saw an article in Woodworker's Journal, that showed a Blanket chest with veneered raised panels and it looked quite good. I have always had great success with Certainlywood. I also buy a lot of veneer on eBay.
Rob Millard
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