My Son just bought a house and is in a panic about the oil heat. I say full blown wood furnace! He is saying pellet stove. Craigs list has free wood all the time. A trailer, my chain saw and a splitting maul and your in business. I heated a house that way for years. Any opinions on the pellet route?
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Edited 7/1/2008 10:26 am ET by BruceS
Replies
My folks live in PA, Harmon wood stoves make a pellet stove (made in central PA), my folks say they work great, less mess than wood, they have an auger to feed the wood pellets into the "combustion chamber", installation is just two small pipes, one about 2" for air and I think like a 6" for exhaust. I think some even have the one tube inside the second tube. They also can be set closer to the wall than a wood stove.
No mess but a lot of BTUs.
I thought about getting one for my parents to "insert" into the current fireplace.
The convenience of a pellet stove is quite wonderful, so it just depends on how much time and energy he (and you?) have to mess around with hauling, cutting, stacking and toting cords of wood. Then there's the space issue (where to stack it). And the pollution concern -- I suspect pellet stoves are somewhat cleaner than even the best wood stove.
And the convenience in the house. A modern pellet stove runs on a thermostat, you just dump the bag o' pellets in the hopper, and choose your temp. I think the new ones are even self-igniting.
Cautionary notes:
My shop pellet stove is a dinosaur, and has lost it's electronic control to a great extent, so it requires much more human intervention than otherwise. But it was quite enjoyable before the power surge!
Forest girl, aren't you in Texas?Children are our future, unless we stop them now -- Homer Simpson
Nope, but I did visit San Antonio once. Puget Sound, aka Seattle, 9miles west actually on an big rock called Bainbridge Island.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Bruce,
Check out this site:
http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/
It's dedicated to all types of woodburning and biofuel heating methods.
I use a wood stove for the primary heat in my house. It is not all that messy, plus it is good exercise and I never run out of kindling.
Lots of options for modern wood and pellet stoves. If you are handy, installing a chimney for a wood stove is pretty simple. Just be sure to follow all the clearance protocol.
If you live close to a pellet mill then a pellet stove may be an option. However, pellet prices are on the incline, and the stove won't run in a power outage unless you have a generator. Plus there are maintenance and storage issues as well with pellets.
The cost is probably the same as pellet stoves are sometimes double or even triple what a wood stove would cost without chimney/venting. Once you factor in flue costs, it probably ends up about equal.
I like wood personally. I have a Jotul Oslo and it is pretty much maintenance free and once it is up to temperature there is no smoke that comes out of the chimney. Plus the fire is really fun to watch. A pellet stove fire is like watching a pilot light.
You can always buy cordwood. But it generally is not seasoned(around 20 - 25%) enough to burn the first season in the modern EPA stoves with secondary combustion.
I could ramble on so just check out the link. Lots of friendly people willing to help out.
F.
I have a Vermont Castings wood stove in my (basement) shop, and I wouldn't trade it for any power tool. Typically, I find that I can buy pre-split and dried firewood for considerably less on a btu basis than pellets, and a dedicated pellet stove might not handle the scrap wood I'm generating in my shop.
One thought is to purchase a combination natural gas/wood stove. Vermont Castings makes several models, and you've the option of using the gas just to start the wood fire, or use the gas alone.
Considering the way things are going, I'd want the option that gives me the greatest flexibility if fuel sources I could get. I suspect those that bought corn-burning stoves 4 years ago are regretting that purchase about now.
"...and a dedicated pellet stove might not handle the scrap wood I'm generating in my shop." Hah! There's no "might" about it, they don't burn solid wood. ;-)
I love those natural gas/wood combo furnaces, wish we had natural gas on the Island here. We looked at a house for sale last year, huge thing, with a big central furnace in the basement that was one of those designs. Big stack of firewood nearby, he just stokes the fire aat night before bed and if it runs out, it flips over to NG automatically. Cool!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
BTW - You can get such stoves that run on propane and wood as well as natural gas and wood for those that get their gas delivered by truck rather than pipeline. It's also worth noting that it's dangerous to burn propane in an appliance that's designed for natural gas unless the correct nozzle is installed and airflow adjustments are made.
That's good news, and yes I know propane-fueld and NG-fueled aren't the same.
We use oil ($$gulp$$) but our newish furnace can be converted to NG or propane. This summer, extra insulation is high on the list of DIY, and I wouldn't be surprised if a woodstove is about to be added. The price of furnance oil is obscene, and taxable, which makes it worse.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I stayed in a ski cabin this winter that had a pellet stove and it worked really well and it seemed to use very little fuel compared to a wood stove and I think the vent requirements are less challenging than on a wood stove. Another thing to consider is that storing wood close to a house can be a termite issue in some areas and you can store a lot of pellets in sealed containers. The point somebody made about the need to power the auger on the pellet stove was a good point and worth considering.
Good luck and buy the pellets in the summer
Troy
troy,
The point somebody made about the need to power the auger on the pellet stove was a good point and worth considering.
A small generator to power the essentials will get you by with no problems when the eletriky take a nose dive. The auger & blower use very little power.
For our 1,400 sf house (empty nesters) w/pellet stove and solar room we burn about 2 tons of pellets for heat all year. 40 lb bag lasts about 27 hours here in northern NH.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/8/2008 1:00 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
"40 lb bag lasts about 27 hours here in northern NH." I'm guess your house is very well insulated! And a high-quality stove. The best I can do with my old dinosaur stove is 16 hours for one bag.
We may have to go with a wood or pellet stove this fall, oil heat has gotten unbelievable expensive.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yes, but recognize that wood pellets are going to get unbelievably expensive very shortly. About the only source that you can bet will go up slowly over the next couple of years is electricity, because the price is regulated.
To All,
I think we should all burn wood if possible. It does generate particulates, but not much with a good stove run properly. Also no more CO2 is generated by burning wood than by letting bacteria decompose into CO2 and water. Even a healthy woodlot continuusly generates firewood- no need to cut live trees. If you don't want/cant cut it yourself, there are lots of unemployed folks who want side work.
I burn wood in a masonary stove and it really keeps the heating bills down. Ialso get alot of satisfaction from sitting by the fire.
Frank
Frank,If you have a photo of the masony heater I would love to see it.That is the way to go for wood heat, if it can be planned into a renovation or new build. Nice even heat distribution and not a whole lot of fuss.Did you build it yourself or have a mason do it?I am trying to convince the wife to let me build one when we renovate our house.F.
I've built a couple of them.
Yes they are extremely efficient and can be very beautiful.
That said they aren't for every one.
the proper way to heat with them is to light a fast burning hot fire.
once the mass of the stove is brought up to temperature you let the fire burn out.
This cycle is efficient but not conducive to sitting in front of the fire. So if you have it in your living room , most of the time it is
dark.
The fast hot fire is really the ticket though.No fiddling with the air control or less than perfectly seasoned wood or cresote problems from burning too cool.But you do miss the light show from the fire. And these newer EPA stoves do put on a pretty good show when the secondary burn gets going.However for wood heating the less fussy the better. And I do like the look of the masonry heater, even if you can't really watch the fire. Warm is good.F.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very fond of them too.
It's just some people don't take the time to understand them.
Plus you can keep a fire going if you want to, it's just wasteful.
forestgirl,
Four years ago we unstalled the pellet stove and we bought 4 ton of pellets and consumed nearly all of them. Not a good thing. Each year we've been able to cut down with improvements in insulation and buttoning up this old house.
Last year we bought 3 ton and used a little over 2 and will buy 3 more this year whilst the price is still reasonable. $225/ton - prebuy. Have lots of storage space.
Our heating budget is down from $1,800/yr. to less than $1,000/yr. now, even at todays prices. Of course closing off the upstairs for 3 months in the dead of winter has made a significant improvement. No need for 2 bedrooms and office up there for that time.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi, Bob. That's major savings, for sure! Our house is extremely poorly insulated. Nick's going to work on the underneath this summer, I tend to think that will make the biggest difference in how cold I feel. Within a few minutes of the heater going off, I start feeling chilled again, in the dead of winter.
Our house is small so there's not that much square footage, or cubic feet -- low ceiling. But it leaks!
Do you know anything about the spray-on/in foam insulation? I'm wondering if that might be a good way to go for underneath the house. Might be pretty expensive though.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
My father in law had the foam sprayed under the floor from the crawl space. He told me it was guaranteed bla bla bla... well it shrunk or decomposed or whatever but all fell down and now it is a mess under there when I have to crawl under there for some reason-like to pull all of it out - using a respirator.
he had it installed more than 20 years ago so I hope they have made advancements since then, but that is just one thing to be aware of.
Dave
Children are our future, unless we stop them now -- Homer Simpson
Thanks, Dave. I'd need to learn what the prep procedure is and judge whether it'd be possible to accomplish it on this old house.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
That's the old urea formaldehyde foam. It was known for falling apart like that if not mixed properly. On top of that, it can also emit formaldehyde for quite a long time.
The newer generation of insulating foams are polyurethane, and have a very good track record.
-Steve
As Steve said, spray foam installation has improved markedly from when it was first on the market. It sticks very well now, though how it would perform in the application you cited - in a crawlspace (and possibly exposed to the elements?) - is unknown. Foam deteriorates quickly with exposure to sunlight, and even when not exposed to light the surface does oxidize over time.
Here's an idea that would save some money, do essentially the same thing as spray foam, and is DIY-friendly if you don't mind getting a bit dirty...
Buy some rigid foam boards (pink or blue) and cut them to fit loosely between your floor joists. This is easily done on a tablesaw, though it's pretty messy. The pieces don't have to be a tight fit because you'll seal the edges with expanding spray foam. Secure the foam temporarily in place with wires or screws until the foam hardens. You can use two layers of two inch foam, for instance, to get quite a good R-value, and an airtight seal that's also a vapor retarder all at once.
One drawback to this method is working around pipes or ductwork. It's possible, but it does take some time and cutting and fitting.
Zolton If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Thanks, Zolton. Between you and Bob, I'm feeling much more optimistic about the insulation thing, and I have a feeling we'll be kicking ourselves for not doing it a long time ago! Nick worked out-of-state for 7 years or so, and we just didn't get big home projects going during that period of time.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hey Lady,
Do you know anything about the spray-on/in foam insulation?
The price I was quoted was about 30% higher than batts/rolls and would work quite well for the cellar, according to the installer. About ½ of our cellar is crawl space so installation was going to be a real pain in that part with the foam.
Being the cheapskate that I am I just happened to have a bunch of 2" x 4' x 8' sheets of the rigid stuff and many rolls of R-11, salvaged from the landfill so that won the money angle. :-)
I bought a reel of heavy gauge electric horse fence, cut into 20" lengths to hold the R-11 up in the joists, then stuffed two layers of the 2" rigid up between the joists, kinda friction fitted it so it would stay there. We then stapled some 40 mil white plastic sheeting (leftover liner material for the landfill cap) stretched tightly across the joists.
Life is good.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks, Bob, you and my husband see eye-to-eye on the costs issue, so I'll pass your technique along to him. It gets quite damp under the house, so I've been concerned that whatever we do can stand up to the humidity.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
What soil type do you have under the house? What type of vapor barrier? We have primarily sand on clay. We have about 85 inches per year but the crawl space stays dry with just the standard mil plastic over it. Built in 67.
I say crawl space but it's more like George Carlin's famous room - "the room is so small the mice are stoop shouldered!" I'm intrested in what you are going to do"up" there...might have application for us down here.John
Are you familiar with the rocket stove?Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
Ahhh, it's justa stove. :-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
It's got some attractive features, I was thinking about a way to build one of the mass stoves for the shop. Some info here.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
Don,
Hmmmmmm, the more I dig into it the more interesting it gets.
http://www.peacemaking.org
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I can't really tell you the type of soil, I try not to go under there, LOL! Problem is, the house sits downhill from the treed land above, and the highway above that, so the crawl space gets standing water in it. Nick's just put a drain pipe in to make that water drain out the front side and into the field below.
If that works, we'll be in much better shape. I'm going to show Nick the posts about ridgid foam and batting-type, see if he'll go for that. Then we need to tighten up the doors and one wall in the bathroom that I've insulated twice, but we're still having problems with leaks.
House was built in the early 1940's as a project for a trade class or something like that, and then added onto by subsequent owners. It has its challenges, to say the least!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl,
I've often thought that if I could gunnite the crawl space that would be the cats meow.
Boiler: But it might be hell for all the stoop shouldered mice! :-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Come on down to Texas--we got heat to burn! We occasionally have to turn on the furnace in the winter. 9 months of summer and 3 months of hell is our weather. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Not a chance, Tom! I'll visit San Antonio and drift down the river, stuff like that, but I can no longer take heat! When I was young, 100 degrees was no big deal, outdoors, working and riding hard and loving it, but that dolerance came to a screeching halt somewhere in my 30's..
It's been in the high 70's, low 80's this week here, and I'm wilting, LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Gee, I think our low yesterday was in the lower 80's....LOL. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
One option not mentioned yet is a wood burning fireplace insert. A little different than a wood stove, is very attractive and is very efficient.
Three types of heat that haven't been mentioned yet:
I. Used engine oil heat. I have a friend who's bro in law heats his shop with used engine oil. There is a company that makes a furnace just for that. The oil is usually free or some concerns even pay to have you take it off of their hands. Can't beat that price. I understand the furnace is quite pricey and you would need a chimney.
II. Geothermal. I have geothermal in my house. I've had it for about 1½ years now. Here is the hard part - Last year I used about $150 less in electric than I did when I used wood heat and I am heating an extra floor. Can't figure that one out. Again, the installation is very expensive. One third of the price is in the drilling of the wells.
III. Outside boiler. I have an outside boiler for my shop with radiant heat in the concrete floor. Very nice heat. I think the comfort zone is probably 8° F less for the radiant in floor heat than conventional convection.
Edited 7/9/2008 12:02 am ET by Tinkerer3
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