Replies

1. 
   Kevin | Jun 09, 2007 08:28pm | #1

   It's a little bit hard to tell from the picture but it appears to me that the wood on the distressed corners still have color, just not the opaque blackness of where it's not distressed. So...

   What I would do is first dye the piece whatever color you want the exposed distressed wood to look like - a dark brown seems to be what the linked coffee table has. Getting the dye even really isn't important because you're going to cover almost all of it with opaque black anyway. But I would take care to make sure you've got good saturation on the edges where you'll be distressing it. Then I would paint the entire thing with pigmented black lacquer, distress the edges and then topcoat the entire thing with a clear lacquer at the sheen that you want it to be.

   You'll probably get the best results if both the black lacquer and the clear lacquer are made by the same company and are compatible with each other. That will probably narrow down your options a bit. Keep in mind that since you'll be clearcoating over the entire thing, the pigmented black can be whatever sheen you wish it to be because once it's clearcoated it'll have the sheen of the clear. With that in mind I think you'll find a dead flat black lacquer the easiest to work with because you can treat it like a primer coat and with blacks, low sheens sand much easier than high sheens... particularly with lacquer.

   If you find that in distressing the edges you run into raw, uncolored wood then you can take some of the same dye and with a fine brush just recolor it until you are satisfied with the look. I would try to keep it off of the black lacquer as much as possible because it might be visible after you're done. Which is the only reason why I would dye first. Otherwise you could just skip the initial dye step and backcolor the distressed areas before topcoating. This would be worth trying out both ways on scrap wood, IMHO. If you find that dying the distressed wood after the black is on produces acceptable results then it would certainly be faster and easier to do it that way, although not radically so.

   Maybe that sounds complicated but I think you'll find it's actually pretty easy once it's all said and done. I've used dyes to precolor wood that will later get pigmented paint on it and it works very, very well.

   As for specific brands... Sherwin Williams is always a safe bet, as is M.L.Campbell. But there are others. I don't think the brand matters all that much. What's more important is that the products are compatible with each other. Any water/alcohol/acetone-based dye should work just fine. I personally would use nitrocellulose black lacquer and maybe a pre-cat clear. However I have heard good things about Oxford water-borne "lacquers" and rather suspect that they'd work very well too.

   
   

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   Edited 6/9/2007 1:34 pm by Kevin

1. 
   EBrandt | Jun 09, 2007 09:18pm | #2

   Hi Kevin,

   Thanks for the detailed response. Exactly what I needed.

   Prior to my post, I had called my local SW (they've never done me wrong yet) and asked about pigmented black lacquer. They said they have some in stock, and that it only comes in high gloss.  That surprised me a bit, but OK.  Keep in mind I am calling retail stores, not industrial/commercial coatings division, but the retail guy I deal with seems quite knowledgeable on most subjects I ask about. Can you point me to a particular product(s) on the SW website you would recommend?

   As for the top coat, will it matter if the top coat has a slight yellow/amber cast like many lacquers? What is my best choice for the clearest?

   Thanks again, very good information,

   Eric.

    

1. 
   Kevin | Jun 09, 2007 10:11pm | #3

   The SW website isn't the easiest to navigate. You want to choose the "Professional" tab and then about half way down the page you'll see "MSDS/Data Sheets" on the left-hand side of the page. Right below that is a link that will open a new window listing all of their products as well as a search function. Using the search function is faster with something like "black lacquer." But the "OEM Product Finish" selecter will be the one you want if you want to search for a specific type product which doesn't come up readily using the search engine.

   SW makes both dead flat black lacquer (M60B00016) and a "dull" black lacquer (M60B00010).

   As for the topcoat clear... there are really two different issues which often get confused. One is lacquers which immediately impart a yellow or amber color. The other is lacquers or clears which will yellow over time. Some clears will go on relatively water white but will yellow over time. As for whether that would be a problem for you... it's hard to say.

   If you're going with a dark brown dye for the distressed areas then an amber clear would seem to be fully compatible because it would compliment the brown since both are "warm" colors and if it were discernable over the black then that too might be fine because you've already got a dark brown which is a warm color.

   However... to be safe you could simply go with CAB/Acrylic lacquer which is water white and will stay water white over time. That's a choice only you can make. I'd have to physically see the piece you're trying to match before deciding which clear I would use if it were me trying to do it.

    

1. 
   byhammerandhand | Jun 10, 2007 12:49am | #4

   My local independent paint store carries Valspar. I just got a gallon of precat Lacquer, http://www.valsparwood.com/valsparwood/products/valtec.jsp made up black for me. We debated between 40 and 60 sheen, but I'm sure it comes in the whole range from dead flat to gloss.Likewise, the Valspar web site is not the easiest to navigate, either.I've also used Porter oil-based Glyptex paint with good results.

1. 
   Kevin | Jun 10, 2007 01:59am | #5

   That's certainly one advantage of the independent paint stores. Invariably they carry products by the big name brands and are usually more willing to jump through whatever hoops necessary to give you what you want rather than steering you towards something off the shelf. Even though I dealt with both Sherwin Williams and M.L. Campbell reps at my last job, I often turned to a favorite independent store when I ran into oddball jobs that required out-of-the-box solutions. In some respects I think the independent stores are almost better suited to such tasks because it kinda fits the nature of the market niche they thrive in.

2. 
   byhammerandhand | Jun 10, 2007 04:12am | #6

   Yep, I support them as often as I can. I have a couple that I visit regularly, depending upon what I need and where I'm at that day. I would have to have to rely on Homers. I tried to pick up some acetone at the Wal*mart just because I was there. The guy in the paint department had no idea what acetone was or what it might be used for.Either one has Pratt & Lambert or McCloskey's product lines.

   Edited 6/9/2007 9:13 pm ET by byhammerandhand

2. 
   EBrandt | Jun 11, 2007 04:40pm | #7

   Hi Kevin-

   Thanks for the additional info. My regular SW rep is 'off' today and his 'fill in help' won't be of much use, although they did think they could get me the black lacquer you mentioned. Excellent.

   A few quesitons though, if you don't mind (you've been very helpful so far...)

   First, I have some Sher-Wood LOVOC (Nitro) Lacquer that I am considering using for the top coat (they yellowing issue doesn't bother me, in fact, I think it may be good). Do you know if I can apply that right on top of this black lacquer? Will there be 'burn in' between the two clouding the top coat, or will it be 'all good'?

   Also, the data sheet for the black lacquer says the retarder to use is R7K27, but the retarder for the LOVOC Lacquer that I have is R6K30 or R6K35. I'm guessing the different numbers are the relative speeds, but want to make sure that all the retarders  are interchangeable (that is, I don't want to have 2 mostly-full gallons of retarder sitting around if I could get by only having one).

   Thanks in advance (again),

   Eric.

1. 
   Kevin | Jun 11, 2007 07:10pm | #8

   Well usually "burn in" refers to a melting into the preceeding coat and it's considered to be a good thing. I'm unsure how you're using it here. Unless you are concerned about the black being dissolved and clouding up the clear? If so then I wouldn't worry about that. I don't think the burn in layer is thich enough to run into that kind of a problem. If you were brushing a clear lacquer over a black lacuer then I could see it definitely being a potential problem. But without some sort of physical aggitation such as that caused by a brush, I don't foresee any problems between these two materials. But I would suggest that you test it on scrap regardless of what I say. That's always the acid test, so to speak.

   The retarder being recommended for the LOVOC lacquer is predicated on the reduced material meeting proposed federal VOC limits. As far as I can tell that's the crux of why the LOVOC PDS is recommending different retarders than the OPEX black PDS is. Unless you are concerned about adhering strictly to VOC limits (I'm pretty sure the federal limits don't apply to your situation), then you should be able to use whatever retarder you use for the LOVOC lacquer.

   I have a very strong personal preference for using PM Acetate (R7K132) blended with MEK (R6K10) instead of packaged thinner blends on all nitro-based lacquers. It's a preference that I've gone into detail about a number of times here at Knots. A quick search should produce one of those earlier rants.... er... posts.

    

2. 
   EBrandt | Jun 11, 2007 08:35pm | #9

   Thanks Kevin, I appreciate the detailed response. The 'burn in' question I was referring to is exactly what you answered.

   I'll search on the retarder preferences issue...its going to be getting humid here in the midwest soon...

   Many thanks again,

   -Eric.

2. 
   furndr | Jun 13, 2007 08:06pm | #10

   I can't add much to the really good advice you have already been given, but if you have access to an M.L. Campbell dealer they have a combination that works beautifully. I recently did what you are about to do and they recommended  their W.V.P. White  Vinyl Primer with added black pigment for the base coats.  One of the advantages to this product is that it is relatively tough, but sands like a dream (no paper clogging). I applied 2-3 coats (spraying) and then block-sanded to seal and build a base. Then applied several more coats and sanded again (220 grit). I then  distressed and rubbed through edges and other approapriate  areas and applied a cherry stain (M.L. Campbell Woodsong). I then clearcoated the entire piece with several coats of M.L. Campbell Klearplast (lacquer) satin.  I don't have pictures but the customer was tickled.

3. 
   allen1 | Jun 17, 2007 05:02am | #11

   Eric,  I was amused by your question since I recently completed a project for a client with the exact same request- to match a finish to a PotteryBarn dresser they already had.  I did a lot of experimentation and finally got a finish that both the client and I were pleased with.  I used hard maple, sanded to 180, then wiped with a damp rag to raise the grain.  I then brushed on one coat of Sherwin Williams Sherwood 3233 Midnight Black FAC wiping stain, let dry about 10 min. then brushed off the excess, not wiped.  After drying I sprayed on several coats of Minwax polyurethane satin spray.  Any deviation to this caused problems.  I'll probably never be asked to do it again.

   Allen Maddy

   Signaturewood.net

4. 
   peakbagger | Jun 23, 2007 05:01am | #12

   I just finished an entertainment center with a similar finish on oak (trying to match Crate and Barrel). I used black trans-tint as a base (about 1/4 oz. per liter of water), red mahogany pigmented stain because the water-based tint doesn't get in the grain, then three coats of water based poly with black trans-tint added (about 1 oz per liter).

   Came out pretty good.

1. 
   EBrandt | Jun 23, 2007 01:49pm | #13

   Thanks to all for their responses. Sounds like there are many ways to go about this.

   seems my responsibility now is to post some pictures when I finish, its the least I can do after each of you took time to share your ideas...

   Thanks again,

   E.