We’re thinking about running an article on old machines being used in current shops. Are any of you making use of old iron? Given that most folks aren’t likely to, say, pour new babbit bearings, what machines make sense from the standpoints of money, accuracy, fiddling around time, and safety?
Thanks for your comments,
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. –Robert M. Pirsig
Replies
1953 Sears Craftsman tablesaw, highly modified.
Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
Thanks for the reply, Alan. Got a picture?
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
This 1953 Sears Craftsman now sports a 2 horsepower, 220 V., TEFC, industrial quality motor. It will rip 8/4 oak without hesitation. I've replaced the arbor bearings, installed a heavy duty link belt and machined pulleys, a magnetic starter with a 'panic paddle', a Mulecab Accusquare fence, 4'x4' outfeed table and a router table to the right. I used to make my own zero clearance inserts, but now buy them from Highland Hardware.
In all fairness, I have to admit I'm looking for a cabinet saw and thinking about passing the old Craftsman down to my son, who is drooling over it. (He built a bed for he and his new bride using a circular saw, and it looks pretty darn good!)
Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
"This 1953 Sears Craftsman now sports a 2 horsepower, 220 V., TEFC, industrial quality motor. It will rip 8/4 oak without hesitation. I've replaced the arbor bearings, installed a heavy duty link belt and machined pulleys, a magnetic starter with a 'panic paddle', a Mulecab Accusquare fence, 4'x4' outfeed table and a router table to the right. I used to make my own zero clearance inserts, but now buy them from Highland Hardware."
I'd love to find a saw like yours, to match my Craftsman drill press and jointer from the same era. That, or a nice cheap Unisaw to match the '40s era Delta lathe I have that my dad bought new.
I regularly stop over the Old Woodworking Machines website to see what kinds of neat stuff has shown up since the last time I was there.
Nice, compact set up, Alan. What's going on with the dust collection manifold? It looks pretty clever.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
I have a manifold on both sides of the saw. One side picks up the saw, a vacuum hose hook-up and has an empty hole (from some previous installations). The other side picks up the router fence, the router cabinet, jointer and has a spot for a vacuum hose hook-up. Both manifolds feed into a 6" pvc pipe buried in the floor. Here's a few more pictures of the set up and some more shop pictures.Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
Nice shop, Alan! I recognize that bench, and I like the tool holder modification.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
That's one of the world's great bench designs! Courtesy of FWW, of course. The chisel rack was an afterthought, and my wife was concerned about small children (grandchildren) running around the work bench with razor sharp chisels hanging down, so I threw together a little trough to protect them.
The bench is well used. I built it the same month I received the FWW it was in and I can't remember when that was. I used 3/4" clamps instead of 1/2". I've thought several times about buying or building a maple top, but keeping the same design. I'd just like to have a top a bit harder than the vertical grain fir, but I shouldn't complain. It's dead flat and totally versatile. I used the plane horse side yesterday, in fact. Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
Alan, I tried to email you, but it bounced back. Could you email me so that I can get your address?
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Alan,
I was reading your post and I noticed that you said that you now purchase your inserts from Highland Hardware for your Vintage Craftsman table saw. I went to their website and noticed that the inserts are 1/2" thick. My 1962 model 10" Tilting Arbor craftsman table saw has a metal insert (the only one it came with) that is 3/32" thick. Do they have a thinner insert that you know of and what is the thickness of yours that you are using? I already sent away for some inserts that did not fit lengthwise (only was 12 1/4" and mine is 14 3/8") so I want to make sure I get the proper insert. I would appreciate anything you could tell me. BTW, I love your shop! Regards,
Buzzsaw
1930-1950 vintage Walker Turner 6" Jointer (with home made guard)
1960s craftsman table saw...Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
DANG... your saw bigger en' my old shop!
Alan,
I have about the same vintage of Craftsman table saw although I have not modified it. It was a hand-me-down from my Dad and I love it. I'm particularly interested in blade guards, splitter, and fence modifications. This came with no guards whatsoever and I'm wondering how others have modified their Craftsman table saw. Actually I did add a folding extension table that I built but that is all I have done to it. If you have a picture that would be great... Regards,
Buzzsaw
How about a 1944 Delta Milwaukee 12" lathe that worked in a war plant in NJ, and followed my grandfather home after the war? It's now spinning wood for my 14 year old son, the fourth generation of my family to use it. No babbit bearings, I'm afraid, but it has a pair of felt-seal single-row ball bearings which have to be shimmed for proper preload. The manual says to send the head unit back to the factory for bearing replacement and shimming. Yeah, right.
Be seeing you...
Edited 12/17/2004 5:20 pm ET by Tom Kanzler
I have a 1920's American Woodworking Machinery (Rochester NY) 12" jointer, used daily. Great piece of old iron. You are welcome to run it. Two changes since this pix was taken. I put a Byrd helical head on it. And, closed to bottom for dust collection. Same ugly color, however, which was not my doing. I still use the Surety guard which came with it, and that is an aftermarket item.
Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
I think many hobby shops have been using old iron. Price wise its cheaper then new and with a little tuning better then new. I have early 30's Oliver 12" jointer, 30 something 18" yates planer, 1951 Northfield tablesaw, 1958 Oliver bandsaw.
John
1940's 12" crescent jointer, 1960's Delta 12" lathe, 1950's 12" Delta Planer. Keeping my eye out for an old tablesaw to replace my Jet cabinet saw. May even consider an old band saw to replace my nearly new MiniMax. None are Babbit, but that doesnt scare me away.
Brian
Andy;
I currently have a 1930's 16" Frank H Clement jointer. Have a old navy man pour and scrape new babitts several years ago.
Jim
It's about time FW did a piece on older machines, sure it won't sit well with the advertisers of new machines. I'm currently running a 1942 Unisaw, 1955 Unisaw, 1944 Sidney 16" jointer, 1944 Cresent 20" bandsaw, 1927 JA Fay & Egan foot miter trimmer, 1963 Delta Unidrill and 1972 Delta 13" planer. In storage waiting rebuilding I have a 1954 Moak 36" bandsaw, 1952 Oliver 30" jointer and a 1965 Powermatic 20" planer. My 1985 PM66 is not considered older.
All of these machines in use have seen a total rebuild. Some were a pile of rust when purchased. The Unisaws were $150 for the '42 and $200 for the '55, $400 for the Sidney and $500 for the Cresent bandsaw. Purchased the Unidrill and PM220 planer together for $300.
Granted, alot of time is consumed for rebuilding but my time is free and I enjoy doing it. When one rebuilds a machine you learn the ins and outs of how it works and about proper setup. If more woodworkers rebuilt their own machines they would be able to fix their own problems and figure out why they have a bad cut, vibration or some other problem.
Dave Koury
Pre-'20's Crescent 32" bandsaw
Early 20's American 8" jointer
30's/40's Duro 12" wood lathe
'66 Delta HD shaper
'57 Delta 14" drill press
'50's/60's Newton Horiz borer
All ready for work, some used on a daily basis in my commercial shop.
Hello Dave;
Yours is the first Duro lathe I've encountered other than mine. Would yours have an 1 1/8 - 7 tpi headstock thread? Have factory enclosed twin pedistal stand under mine. Will exchange photos Had to make inboard and outboard faceplates. Have you worked on bearings? Mine are without dust shields! Enjoy it, but always wanted the unaffordable variable speed Delta!
John in Texas
I'm not sure about the diameter, or TPI on the spindle, but I have replaced the bearings a long time ago.
I like this little lathe for the limited amount of turning I need to do each year. Here is a photo of it with a Vega 36" duplicator attached. In this pic, I have been turning reproduction balusters for a Victorian restoration. You can see the original chucked in the duplicator. I had to turn a little over 100 of these balusters from Doug Fir, not an easy wood to get a smooth cut on.I also included a shot of the lathe without the Vega.
Hello!
Thanks for the info. I'm struggling with a sunny 60 degree December day and a framed up tool shed needing a roof and siding before breaking for Christmas. Will get a shot of mine tonight and share it. Very similar except mine has the enclosed headstock.
John
Andy
Old machines are not my thing (not that I have anything against them). However, I think that is a fabulous idea for an article. That is the type of thing everyone is clamoring for. Who knows, once you publish the article, maybe I'll start a new hobby: refurbishing old machinery.
Props for a good idea.
Kyle
Andy,
I would love to see an article on old machinery. Though I don't have anything in my shop, I am starting to look for a jointer and I'll be looking the old iron way.
Eric
I have a 1940's Delta Homecraft lathe, 1939 Craftsman/Atlas 10" table saw, 1940's Walker Turner drill press, 50's vintage Walker-Turner shaper, 1950's vintage Sprunger 6" jointer, 1940's Craftsman 24" scroll saw, and a (1910-1915?) vintage Berlin Machinery Works #199, 16" babbitt bearing jointer. The drill press, shaper, and small jointer are restored and running (actually the shaper is 100% original), the lathe and scroll saw need to be put back together and restored, and the big Berlin jointer needs a total rust removal, cleaning, and restoration as it had been sitting outside under a tarp when I bought it, and still is.
Andy, if you want to be overwhelmed by information on vintage machinery, and see dozens if not hundreds of these old machines in use, visit http://www.owwm.com and ask your questions to the membership there. One of the "regulars" is Bob Vaughn, who is an expert on the vintage machines and used to write articles for your magazine.
As for the criteria: money, accuracy, safety and time. The lathe, drill press and table saw are inherited, thus no cost. The shaper was the expensive one at $400, but in mint, original condition with about 40 cutters and bits included, and nothing missing. The scroll saw was $35 at a flea market, complete. The Sprunger jointer cost me $75 to obtain and another hundred in the rebuild, and it's better than new. The Berlin jointer, while it will be a bear to restore, weighs over a half ton and cost me fifty bucks. It is worth more as scrap. I find them all to be as accurate, if not more so, than any modern tooling. Safety is not an issue - everything that should have guards, does. Time - doesn't bother me. If you don't have the time to deal with restoration of an old machine, sell it to someone who does, and use that time saved to buy something new and ready to use.
I'm always looking for old machines to buy, restore and use. High on the list are a 1940's Unisaw, a Walker-Turner or Crescent bandsaw, and an Oliver patternmaker's lathe.
Thanks for all the responses! Post more pics!
Jon, I've been on the old Woodworking Tools site. In fact, I think I may have spent half the afternoon there yesterday, drooling, er, researching.
Old tools sure have charm, and can save money. How much time do you end up putting into refurbishing them? Do new accessories fit? Do you have safety concerns?
Off now to kill our Christmas tree,
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Old tools sure have charm, and can save money. How much time do you end up putting into refurbishing them? Do new accessories fit? Do you have safety concerns?
No idea how much time I have put into restoration of machines, because it has been an hour here, 15 minutes there, whenever I can fit it in. Drill press got partially cleaned and painted, maybe 10 hours. Jointer got a complete teardown, down to all it's individual parts, cleaned, painted, and rebuilt with new cutterhead shaft, bearings, blades, drive belt and shop-made stand. Probably put 30-40 hours or more into that one. The blades and bearings were off-the-shelf parts, but not all machines are going to be that easy.
I have no safety concerns. I look at machines in the store and in other shops and I don't notice much of a difference in safetey equipment, and I certainly don't think that an old machine is just going to fall apart on me. I'd be leery of a hundred-year-old squarehead jointer with no guard, but then again, I wouldn't own one anyway.
Andy
I only have one machine that could be considered old. It is a Gilbro Super Smoother 4" jointer that my grandfather bought sometime after WWI. He used it when he built his home between the wars, then handed it on to his son in law (my father) when he built his house in 1950. Dad returned it when we moved interstate in 1960. It was subsequently passed to Grandpa's eldest son about 1964 & then to me in 1996. I run a production shop & it is still in daily use.
I think you're on a winner with this type of article as I know a few other woodies who restore old machinery as a hobby & enjoy seeing what others are up to.
Don
Edited 12/18/2004 7:53 pm ET by Dondownunder
My apologies if the attachments don't work. I posted pictures of my Northfield tablesaw (with 46"X52" cast iron top and rolling table) that I got for $800.
The Oliver bandsaw is 9' tall and was brought over on the back of a tow truck and the driver used the hydralic arm to push the bottom of the saw out so it would fit under the 7' garage door.
Also pictured is a Walker-Turner drill press, a Powermatic 90 lathe, a Oliver 12" jointer (still uses the flat belt drive), a Yates-American 18" planer and a Northfield 16" radial arm saw. Everything was bought for less then a new DIY quality machine would cost. Some needed stripping and refinishing and new bearings but most worked well they way they came. I'm sure most woodworkers could do the required repairs and adjustments needed to make them run like new and when you are done you know how and why the machine works. Hope to see the article soon.
Thanks
John
Thanks for the post, John. Nicely equipped shop. Is there any chance you could email those pics to me? They're kind of small on this site.
[email protected]
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Hello John,How did you find your equipment?
I started by accident and continued to find them by accident. The first was the tablesaw. I was driving to check on some property and saw a sign for an auction. It was all big industrial stuff. On a whim I signed up and watched the first few items. Then this huge tablesaw comes up and the bidding starts at $600. Everyone was bidding and it went up $25 each time. When the bid was $800 I raised my card and it was like a light went on- STOP BIDDING- I was the proud owner of an 18" tablesaw. I hauled it home, found out it was 3 phase, spent another $300 on a phase converter and had a fantastic machine.
Once you have a phase converter it opens up a whole world of equipment you would have never considered before. After that I found the Oliver jointer in a pattern shop that closed down, the Yates-American planer from a college friend of my parents who was retiring, the Powermatic lathe on E-bay, and the Oliver bandsaw from a school that got rid of their woodshop program. The Northfield RAS came from a repo business that had no idea what to do with it. I got it for only $600 and it works perfectly.
The bandsaw was a spur of the moment decision. I bought and had a tow truck haul across town. When I was half way there it occured to me I had neglected to discuss with my wife. I didn't help that the only place the driver could fit it was in the wife's parking spot. Keep in mind its 9' tall and weighs maybe 3000 lbs. Since it was Feb 12 and I hadn't bought the Valentine present yet I wrapped it in black plastic, put a big bow on it and said SUPRISE! The kids were so excited, how could anyone be mad?
I think finding the equipment is more fun then buying from a supplier. You never know what will turn up and have to be ready to do the deal right away. You get more machine for your dollar and satisfaction keeping the old iron running.
John
I'm new to the forum, but not to woodworking (35years). I still use an old cast iron 36" paper core lathe that swings 16". Changed the babbet for pillow blocks and a new headstock shaft. Still runs great. Just completed 5 windsor stools seats and all.
I am using a 1938 Delta jig saw. It has a 24" throat so it is called a 48" jig saw. I purchased it 25 years ago from the original owner. I have put hundreds of hours on it cutting out parts for a client who tole paints and sells them. It was made in Milwaukee, Wisconson. Only had to replace the upper spring column. Parts are still available. Original cost was $39.00 as written in the owner's manuel. I paid $75.00 for it.
1950's Craftsman King Seeley bandsaw
2-1950's Craftsman King Seeley table saws
6" Craftsman King Seeley jointer
4" Craftsman King Seeley jointer
Only the bandsaw is currently in use in my basement. The rest are piled up as I'm saving my pennies to build a small shop in our backyard, hopefully this summer.
Andy:
Great idea for an article. The only drawback is that it will probably drive up the cost of the older machines once more people find out how nice they are.
I have outfitted most of my shop with vintage equipment including a 1940s Delta 1460 lathe, two 9" radial arm saws (a Delta 900 and a DeWalt GS), a Delta 14" band saw with a cast iron stand, and a State OSS. The newer tools just don't compare, and you can buy great vintage equipment for less money than the new Chinese imports.
You probably will want to check out http://www.owwm.com which is run by dedicated volunteers and has an outstanding complilation of information on the older machines including many manuals and pictures submitted by fans of the vintage tools. A picture of my lathe is at http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=25
Kevin
I love my 1950's Yates American J-170 lathe (about 400#), have had good service from the Sprunger 6" jointer, and the Powermatic 1100 ;drill press.
Tom Higby
Don't run the article in FWW just yet. I'm looking for an old 12" jointer. Shhhhh!There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
Andy-
Just piling on here. I've got a restored and beautiful 1957 Northfield HD 12" jointer. And, I can hook you up with the guy I got it from, who I'll be doing business very soon on an Oliver 299 planer, Oliver 36" bandsaw, and Oliver 287 shaper. He does a marvelous job with restorations, and without exagerating, has well over 100 old cast iron ww machines from the good old days waiting to be put back in the game for the next 50 or so years.
It was I who recommended this article to you with my post about tools and shops, and would absolutely love to see it. It brakes my heart when I read here about guys buying new tools made in foreign countries, and they can't keep the fence aligned on their jointer, or saw. They talk about snipe in planers, etc... and living with all these malfunctioning pieces of equipment. You can drop a railroad tie from 10 feet up right on top of my jointer, and the only issue will be that you might scratch the paint, which would definately make me cry.
Can't wait to read the article!!!!!
JC
I, too, would love to see an in-depth article on old machines.I have rebuilt several, but the only ones I now have are a 1960's Delta contractor's saw and a 1950's Craftsman drill press that my dad bought new.
I'm glad someone mentioned the OWWM website. There's a wealth of information there,from people who have actually done restorations on old machines.Those are the people you should talk to, not just people who have only done a few machines, like myself.I've seen too many articles, in FWW and other mags, where the author and informants don't know much more than the average person about their subject.I'd like to see a truly in-depth article, including pouring babbit.(Or at least a reference to the article in FWW #38.)
Rick W.
Andy,
If I may toot my own horn? I founded the OWWM online forum back in mid-2000. At the time we had a half dozen people (all friends of mine I'd pestered into joining) participating in the daily chat on the subject of old woodworking machines. Before long I was excitedly telling my wife (herself a saint for what she has had to endure the last four years) that we were up to a whopping 100 members. This excitement repeated itself at every milestone of 200, 250, 500, 1000, 1500 and finally 2000 members. Currently we sit at 2150ish members. To date there have been over 50,000 messages posted to the forum about old woodworking machines. One very interesting thing I have found is that the traffic there is consistently on topic, good hearted, helpful, humorous and this bunch are some of the best people I have come to know. I tend to think this can be explained away as "like minded people sharing a common obsession". In the world of online forums it's probably the best though I am somewhat and understandably biased.
One of our earliest members, Keith Rucker, actually takes responsibility for setting up and establishing the OWWM.com Web site. Considering Keith has a family and a day job that involves travel it's beyond me where he has found the time to build what has become one of the best woodworking machines site on Al Gore's Wonderful World Wide Web. Of all the links I see referenced on other online woodworking forums the OWWM site is usually mentioned the most. We of the forum owe a great debt to Keith's persistence. It's also through the efforts of machine owners (many not even members of the OWWM discussion forum) that the site is as large as it is. I still am in awe of the fact that prior to Y2K there was very little out there for our "like minded bunch".
Getting to what it is you are wanting, we have a number of members who aren't scared of something as "simple" like pouring new babbits for an old machines. The readership of the forum runs pretty diverse. Some members specialize (lust after) machines from the turn of the century while others may only have a couple of machines. My own shop is modeled after what a serious hobbyist woodworker from the 40's or 50's might have. All but a handful of my machines are older than I am (I'm working on getting to the 50th. year of my life). For me it was because I have a limited budget and could have never set up what I have without buying everything used and restoring it to new(er) usable condition. That has changed and now it's because I love the lure and lore of old woodworking machines that I continue on with what I've created in myself. My own specialty is the Unisaw (I own the oldest one known to exist) and the Delta line in general (to 1974).
We have members who are quite prolific and their entire shop consists of machines they have torn down to every screw, nut and casting, cleaned and re-painted to new condition. There is also a running joke about rat holes and who owns the most duplicates of a particular machine type. Currently drill presses and band saws are the most coveted of "the multiples" though I can tell you it's not hard to own a "few" table saws. On the Old Tools forum (cordless vintage tools) this is referred to as the "slippery slope". We of the corded vintage machine are no different except our rat holes are larger.
There is one thing that I think your article might want to touch on. All of our members are woodworkers, or at least started out as woodworkers, but something magical happens when you've taken some sad bastard of a machine and brought it back to factory spec. It's somewhat consuming to say the least and obsessive at it's worst but most will tell you that machinery restoration is as much fun as the fine art of "wood reduction".
I could go on forever with the subject and would if asked but I'll wrap it up here with a plea. I have been a Fine Woodworking subscriber since Issue 11. Fine Woodworking gives credence to every subject it covers. The magazine sets the standard. In the past other magazines have tried to do the subject of old woodworking machines but they have always turned in a flawed product. Mostly they have shown a complete disregard for the facts and history and the article is been just plain wrong or edited down into what amounts to a mis-quote. Please do not follow in their foot steps. I don't want to place you on the hot seat but it will be noticed by at least 2000 people who are interested in the subject.
Thanking you in advance for what you are about to do. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you need information. While I don't know everything, I can point you to some people who might.
Keith Bohn - OWWM Member No. 1
Andyengel,
When I was not much more than a kid I worked for a rigging company in CT. We moved many a large piece of machinery. It nice to see so many woodworkers are taking advantage (financially) of resurrecting these old over weight under engineered machines. I mean really, these were all made when resources were plentiful and ingenuity or safety was of little concern. I guess if wood was as available we'ed all be admiring in the gallery 16/4 slabs attached to tree stumps as examples of fine craftmanship.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Keith. I'll definitely be in touch with you.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Andy,
I just was handed down a a 1936 Delta Bandsaw. Runs great, need to take the rust off. It was working until I started to restore it. Given to me as well is a 1940ish Craftsman 6x48 belt sander and 6" open planer. I don't use the planer much. scare the tar out of me. Open on one end and no power feed. The sander works great but no dust collection.
I posted the bandsaw in it's original condition and I am de rusting it.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=18601.1
Here is some of the rust removal success.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=19526.1
When it's done. It's going to be a welcome addition to my shop.
Happy Holidays!
Hi Len. That's a great tool you've got there. It's a reminder that ours is not the first generation of woodworking fanatics. I was most impressed with the success you had with chemical de-rusting agents.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Brilliant article concept. There is an aesthetic quality to the old machinery that speaks of solidity, ruggedness, durability, quality and even "authenticity" that much of the newer machines do not. Also, every old machine has its unique life story, which may not influence what a person produces with the machine, but adds an appreciation for being part of a woodworking tradition or heritage that goes beyond oneself.
Although my shop operates both new and old machines, I find using the old machines to have a unique tactile pleasure. The three principle old machines that dominate my shop are the Powermatic 66 which dates to the mid 1980's, the 1972 Oliver 2159 lathe, and the 1947 Red Star Multiplex 50A radial arm saw. Every time I use these tools, or the old handtools I inherited from my father and grandfather, I am conscious of the generations of other woodworkers who used them before me, and my hope that my daughters, and grandchildren will use them after me.
Since 1989 I have done liturgical (ecclesiastical) woodwork professionally. I started out using my great grandfather's draw knife and the table saw my father built from a washing machine motor in 1946. Although I've added a number of new tools over the years, the old ones are the ones I treasure most and return to most frequently.
And finally, the Old Woodworking Machinery site is the definitive place for information on every aspect of these tools - including pouring babbit bearings about which there are at least two articles posted to the website.
Good luck with the article and I look forward to reading it.
George
I think this is a great idea for an article. I'm an amateur woodworker and subscriber to FWW. I imagine that there are a wide range of readers who use old iron, ranging from the professional shop with a couple of monsters, to people who got into woodworking with their grandfather's band saw and went on to buy shiny new machines to go with it, to people like me whose affinity for rebuilding machines goes hand in hand with using them to build furniture, to people who can take on a 1905 36" band saw with babbit bearings and bring it back to life.
I don't have a lot of old iron compared to many of the OWWM folks, but what I have is in the range from the 40s to the early 60s. I like these because they have ball bearings and are relatively easy to make functional. In general, safety of mine is similar to new.
I don't think advertisers should have any qualms about old iron. I've bought a fair number of new tools over the years, and companies like Woodcraft, Rockler, etc. would have had far less of my business over the years had it not been for my old iron.
Pete
I agree that the advertisers won't have any qualms about an article on old iron. While there are several reasons for this, the most basic one is that at Taunton, editorial and advertising have little to do with each other.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
As Keith suggested check out the owwm group.
As for pouring new babbitts... It's extremely easy to do and well within the skill of any woodworker. All you need is a hot plate, mapp gas torch, welding gloves, babbitt and babbitt damning material ( latter two avaiable from most industrial suppliers, ie: McMaster). I did it on my Porter jointer. A lot of good information out there on doing it properly.
As for safety there are a lot of things to consider with old jointers that use clamshell type heads. I've got one laying around the shop here (cutterhead that is). I replaced the cutterhead on my 16" Porter with a Whitney 40" cutterhead that I had modified. You should have seen that 40"ier. Heavier that most new 6" jointers. Another safety issue is with old bandsaws that don't have guards on the wheels. Can be very dangerous if that blade comes off.
Other safety issues are probably with wiring and powering these machines. I actually run my machines on 440v three phase in my home shop, but most old machinery will have three phase motor's on them. Phase converters are again easy to make and setup for not much money if you do it yourself.
Tuning machines can be teadius at times. Takes more time to set 16" or 18" blades that those tiny 6". Also, many older machines won't have the nice little adjustment screws to help setting the knives. I believe Bob V did a nice video for you guys on jointer setup which showed how to quickly setup an older jointer.
Great idea, Andy.
I've got a Rockwell/Delta 24" scroll saw, circa 1960-ish; a Rockwell/Delta 6" jointer, open chasis, that came out of the Norfolk & Western shops somewhere in Ohio, 1960-ish; a Boice-Crane 15" drill press that's probably about that same era (sixties) and a Rockwell/Delta 10" contractor's saw that's of unknown age — sometime in the past the serial number plate went on French leave.
The scroll saw was in three boxes when I bought it, the jointer was a summer rehab job and the Boice-Crane drill press started out as a table top model that I converted to a floor model.
Photos if asap, I'll e-mail them to you, probably after the Christmas rush in the body shop (I work in a hospital in real life).
Hope you all have a great holiday.
Regards,
Thanks to all of you for your responses. As I posted last night on the OWWM forums, a problem that I hadn't foreseen has raised its head. That is, making a choice. There are far more machines than we have room for. I'd like to hear your take on which ones in particular we should feature.
For example, I'm pretty certain that we'll have a tablesaw, a jointer, and a bandsaw. If you could add three other classes of machine, what would they be? And within those classes, which individual machines should we choose, and why?
Merry Christmas to all,
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Mortiser. I'd put a Greenlee 227 or a Oliver 92-D. I love these old machines. The new mortisers out there pale in comparison. Also, I don't think anything like them are made anymore. Except maybe a Maka, but their different enough.Oliver 92-D
http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=2051Greenlee 227
http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=1060
I want one of each!
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Marty:Powermatic: http://www.southern-tool.com/store/mortiser.htmlLeon Jester, Roanoke VA
"If you could add three other classes of machine, what would they be? And within those classes, which individual machines should we choose, and why?"
I think lathes would make a good category, because there are a lot of turners out there, and a lot of folks looking to get into it. An old lathe, in my opinion, will give you a lot more machine for the buck than much of the current offering. Assuming an old machine isn't broken or missing any parts, there isn't much that can wear out besides headstock bearings and motor, and you can often find one for sale with tooling and accessories (which is usually the more expensive part, anyway).
Since you're asking for nominations, I nominate the Delta/Milwaukee 1460 lathe. There was a picture or two posted in this thread, and I've also posted mine. It's the one I mentioned waay back, but didn't have a picture of. It was built in December 1944 and worked in a war plant in NJ. It followed my grandfather home after the war, and it's been in use in my family ever since. My dad taught me to turn on it, and now I'm teaching my 14 year old (fourth generation of my family to use it). It's also the same model David Marks had on his show about turning (his was painted blue and white, I think). As far as I know, the paint is original, but it's on it's third or fourth motor (I'm using an 1140 rpm Baldor now, to get slower speeds for large diameter work).
One good reason for suggesting the 1460 lathe is that there are plenty of them around, and they sell for relatively little money. I see them on ebay all the time. They have cast iron legs and heavy table and shelf boards. Mine's nothing fancy, but it's been working well for the last 60 years.Be seeing you...
Your three: tablesaw, jointer, bandsaw.
Add: planer, lathe, drill press.
There's also some of the more obscure but still popular machines like 20-36" dia. disk sanders, stroke sanders, shapers, mortisers, radial arm saws, etc.
You can get a good antique/vintage drill press by Clausing, Delta or Walker Turner that will be far superior to something five times the price today. Check out some of the older radial drill presses for versatility.
Likewise, the planers. Most guys can find a 12" Parks planer for $300 or less. Do a side-by-side comparison with one of those little lunchbox planers, and don't forget to mention the weight. Or, see how much a brand new 24" planer is, a good solid cast iron one that doesn't tip over when you feed it a 16' long 8/4 oak plank. Stack that up to an old Oliver, Yates or Crescent 24" planer that you need a rigger to move for you.
Lathe. The price of a vintage lathe is all over the place, but where they really shine is in the larger three-phase patternmaker's lathes. The really serious turners go out searching for a Oneway, Poolewood, Nova, Stubby or similar lathe, but how much do you have to spend to get a NEW lathe with a 24" swing and a 12' bed? My biggest problem with those monsters is finding the room to put one.
Andy,You wrote:"If you could add three other classes of machine, what would they be? And within those classes, which individual machines should we choose, and why?"I would pick items that have features that have been slowly dropped due to cost, as opposed to improvements in safety or improved features like ball bearings over babbit.Old drill presses are a great example. Many had side thrust bearings so you could do all sorts of things that would destroy a modern drill press. In addition, they had vastly more quill travel which is vital if you use a variety of tooling.Delta produced a number of fantastic booklets on each type of tool and what could be done with them. The books are common on Ebay and show how versatile older tooling is. I have most of them if you can't find them.Sounds like a great article!
Andy:
This is a terrific idea for a FWW article. I think that you'll be amazed to see that woodworkers aren't the the crazed consumers that the woodworking magazines and trade shows would lead you to believe. I would like to suggest that you stretch this idea out into a series of several articles or even a regular feature. How about:
• Sources of repair parts and accesories (such as rip fences)
• A photo gallery of old machines and their owners using their equipment.
• Expert advise on reconditioning and set-up of old equipment.
• An article showing the real heavy duty industrial machinery such as Northfield or Oliver. I bet that amatuer woodworkers have never seen this stuff.
• Info on options for converting older three phase tools to single phase or set up of phase converters for small shops since a lot of older equipment will have three phase motors.
By the way, I recently aquired a 1947 Northfield 20" band saw and an early 60's Delta radial arm saw. Both need only cleaning and painting to bring them back to life.
Also, I'd like to see some articles on small shop professional woodworkers that produce custom furniture - how they set-up their shops, develop their businesses, etc.
Good luck with the old machines article! I hope to read it soon in FWW.
I love old anything-old wine, old cars, and yes, old equipment.
I had a 1940 something Delta Unisaw with a Jet Lock Fence. Beautifull Art Deco frame and lettering. Wonderful old saw for like $500. Its only drawback was a 2hp motor. Regretably, I sold it, but to this day wish I had just upgraded the motor and fence.
I currently have a 1950 DeWalt Radial Arm Saw, when DeWalt was owned by Black and Decker in the 50's before they started using their own name. Wonderfull old cast iron saw that never needs adjustment, which is astonishing for a RAS.
I also own a 1948 Rockwell 14" Bandsaw which of course is a Delta, when Col. Rockwell bought the company in 1946. Great saw and wouldn't sell it for anything. It has a massive 1.5 horse motor and is 240 volt and runs like a top. Still have the manual for it to, with a moveable base and light. The knobs are unusual, and are 5 spoke knobs, unlike the plastic pieces of c r a p that were on the saw from the 50's to today.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Andy,
I think that your idea for an article on old machines is great. In fact, I think that you could easily do a series of articles, one on table saws, one on bandsaws, etc. I would particularly be interested in how older machines are modified to improve their performance.
Tom
I have a 1953 Shopsmith 10er, which I picked up off e-bay for $104. It needed new pulleys/belt and a new power cord. It's a beatiful old tool that I use primarily as a drill press/horizontal boring and for turning.
Picture can be found here:
http://www.crewsr.net/test/index.php?album=%2FRobs%2Fprojects
That is a cool tool. Nice bookcase, too.
Although you mainly use it as a horizontal borer, you might still be able to answer this question. How difficult is swapping between the functions?
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Hi AndyThe most difficult part of swapping machine functions comes into play when converting the machine from horizontal (as pictured) to vertical (like for use as a drill press). To do so, the user is required to lift one end to the machine, which pivots at the other end until it is vertical. The physical effort of raising the machine varies, depending on where the motor and powerhead have been positioned along the 'way tubes'. If the motor/powerhead is near the pivot point, lifting is relatively easy. If the motor/powerhead is closer to the opposite end of the tool, it is very heavy (at least for me). Depending on how late in the day it is, or how fatigued I am, raising the machine can be a real chore. Also, finger-smashing opportunities abound when converting the machine, so I have to be pretty careful on how I handle it.That being said, however, converting the machine takes only a minute or two, once you know how to do it, and the . Since the machine is typically dedicated to only 2 or 3 functions, I don't have to mess with it too much. If I didn't have other tools and had to rely on this machine (or a new shopsmith, for that matter) to be my tablesaw/drillpress/jointer/etc/etc/etc, I think I would quickly tire of constantly reconfiguring it.
I have a 1915 12" OshKosh table saw that I am planning on setting up to use as a heavy duty bowl lathe. It has a wooden top with metal inserts for various uses. It was disigned to be a combination machine. Tablesaw, Jointer, Miter, Jigsaw, etc. provided you purchased the options. I have some of these with it now, but I still have to do the refurbishment before I know what all I have.
Plumber1
Yes I think your correct in assuming that there are people using old iron.
Here is one that is getting rehabilitated to be put back into service soon I hope.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-knots&msg=20797.1
Edited 12/28/2004 1:29 am ET by Original-Bart
How about featuring one old machine in each issue as a running feature story. A few specs, a bit of history of the piece and the company would make a nice half page. KDM
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
That might make an interesting addition to Reader's Gallery. I'll bring it up at the next staff meeting.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Andy,
I am restoring a 1916 Crescent 26" bandsaw and a 1920's L. Power & Company 16" Jointer.
I will be re-pouring the Babbitt bearing on the bandsaw, as well as converting the original fast and slow drive wheels - the saw was originally powered by a flat belt system in a factory setting - to a four belt sheave. The replacement sheave is over 17" in diameter and close to 50 lbs. The total weight of the saw is just north of 850 lbs.
The jointer will need to be cleaned up, but the current Babbitt bearings are in tact and allow the cutter head to spin freely. It does have the original square head two blade cutter block, which will definitely be replaced before I put the machine back into service. The jointer tips the scales at just under 1,400 lbs.
Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
Dan:Resized your pic of the sheave.Leon Jester
Dangeeit J, boy,
We want to see Machines,preferably beeefore and aaaaafter, and not sheeves or pulleys that we have seen before.
just a gentle dig there.
M',
I've got the machine's tables are under electrolysis to remove any rust/oxidation - but I have enclosed some additional photos of the jointer (see link below). I'll keep them coming as I progress.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=20629.75Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
OK, anyone for a chorus of Bringing in the Sheaves? <G>
Any chance of some pics of the whole machines?
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Andy,
The machines - 1920's L. Power & Co. 16" Jointer and 1916 Crescent 26" Bandsaw - are in current states of disassembly for restoration.
I've enclosed some photos of the jointer. The tables sit on the top rails of the casting - but without a hoist or another person, they are too heavy for one person to place back on the machine. Without any sort of motor, this jointer tips the scales at just under 1400 lbs. The blades shown are original to the machine which came with two pair. There is a close up photo of the blade stamped with the jointer manufacturer's name - L. Power & Co.
I currently have the jointer's tables, as well as the tables from the bandsaw, under electrolysis to remove any rust/oxidation.
Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
Edited 6/21/2005 12:55 am ET by Jackie Chan
Any chance of some pics of the whole machines?
Andy,
This is an original catalog photo of the L. Power & Co. 16" Jointer that I have. (This is in addition to the photos that I just posted to you.)
Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
Right lad,
Get on with it now! That looks like that kind of superb machine that can be restored to a better than new condition and will last forever. I am envious.
What horse motor does it need? Is the block a square block-am asking this because in many coutries square blocks are no longer allowed, because of safety considerations.
"What horse motor does it need? Is the block a square block-am asking this because in many countries square blocks are no longer allowed, because of safety considerations."
M',
The jointer would run fairly well on a 3 HP motor. But for maximum performance, I'm going to use a 5 HP TEFC power plant.
You are correct, it does have it's original square block cutter head. This will be the first thing to go, and will be replaced with with a four blade round cutter head, or possibly a Tersa head.Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
A resized image for the dial up folks.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Hi Andy
Here is a shot of my 1953 Delta Unisaw after I finished it.
Also a picture of my 1930's Delta Double Duty Lathe.
I love those old machines. I hope that when I'm 70 some new bearings and a coat of paint will do as much for me.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Andy
Here's a picture of my 1957 Northfield 12" HD jointer. It has been completely restored, and the tables are flat to .0002! No kidding!
It has a 4 knife cutterhead, with matched and balanced knives. I can edge joint 1/2" off in one pass, which really speeds up the milling process when I've got to prepare stock for a large project.
I love it so much, I tried to make it my new teddy bear, but I couldn't get it up the stairs! It weighs in at over 1600 lbs.
Jeff
I've had a lot of luck at auctions lately. I bought an old Craftsman 8" bench saw and a Prairie tool co. wetstone for $15. I bought a 1960's Craftsman 10" contractor saw from my boss for $20. At another auction I got a Craftsman 6x48 belt sander w/9" disk for $35. See a trend here?
The 10" saw sports a mulecab ripfence. I was able to download a manual for it a OWWM.com and the saw cuts beautifully with the 1 1/2 hp motor. The 8" saw has a complete molding head set with it and does a nice job on oak with the original 1/2 hp motor.
After spending hours trying to sharpen everything from axes to drawknives by hand the wetstone is the only way to go.
This fall I plan to upgrade everything with link belts and machined pulleys. If it weren't for old machines I wouldn't have a shop.
I suppose I need to ask how old are you thinking. Being a young un at twenty five our scene shop has a few tools which are older than I am. But I don't think that's necessarily saying anything. By being a Rockwell is it automatically in the old tool category? We've got a rockwell radial arm saw and lathe, as well as a vintage delta bandsaw.
Datachanel
Doing things the hard way
I'm gonna be arbitrary here and say old means older than me - So that's pre-1960.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Andy:
In response to your question about old machines, I have a 1955 Rockwell Delta radial drill press that my father gave me. It is the old grey metal machine in great working order. It handles all my drilling needs.
I'm a OLD machine in a OLD shop.. Do I count?
I dunno - If a ScotchBrite pad and some WD-40 is your idea of a facial, you might qualify. <G>
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Andy I got an email from someone who had read one of my responses over in the woodweb forum. He wanted to know if I was willing to have a dialog with him while he re-built an old combination machine. He said that it was 1750 vintage. I ask if how he came up with that age, but he has not answered my email. I forgot about this thread. I will try to get him to post some photos here.
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