I have an old steel spine backsaw that I think I would like to have sharpened.
It has a 16″ long sawplate that extends 3.5″ below the spine, and it’s sawplate is nominally 38 thousands thick. It is straight and clean with only minor pitting in the center of the plate (none at the teeth) and an unbroken, comfortable handle. It is really dull.
I bought it in 1970 as a ‘miter saw’ (complete with wooden miter box) back when the Craftsman brand still meant that you were purchasing a decent tool.
I know next to nothing about hand saws. Is this one worth having sharpened? If so, can anyone recommend a service for having it sharpened? According to Google, no one advertises sharpening hand saws.
Mike D
Replies
It's not a fine old Disston, but still might be worth a try. Cooke's (York, PA) does a fine job for around $20.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Mike_D,
Value is relative. I picked up a sharp Disston back saw for $5 bucks that works as well as the LN in my opinion. However, we do have many places around here to find those deals, your location may differ.
38 thou thick? Pass.
I think as a tenon saw, this saw has too thick a plate to be practical. That, I believe, is what Adam was getting at in his brief message.
If you intend to keep using it as a hearty miterbox saw, then yes, it would be worthwhile to sharpen it--but...you do it. It isn't difficult. As long as you follow the directions available at vintagesaws.com, you will do fine.
Take care, Mike
Hi Mike,
While the saw plate is a little thick (.038" vs. a nominal .032", according to Holtzapffel, for a tenon saw of 16 to 20 inches in length by 3 1/4 to 4 inch width), I certainly wouldn't summarily reject it for that reason alone. Especially if the saw plate is straight, free of pitting near the teeth and the handle is comfortable and intact.
The big unknown is the quality of the steel. I'm thinking a practical way to ascertain that would be to sharpen it and use it for a while. Even if you find that it's not a great saw, it would give you a chance to find out if a saw of that size, etc. is useful for the type of work you do.
Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
Hi Don,
Earlier than Holtzappfel and thinner was the norm, of course. And I do believe it makes a tremendous difference. The resultant kerf differece--the amount of wood being removed--is a sum of greater than the 6 thou difference Mr. Holtzappfel lists. But, should we go below the nominal difference, down to the 29 thou plate thickness at the thin end of his chart, and there is about a ten thou difference just in plate thickness to the subject saw. Even with an equal amount of set, the effort required as one goes to thicker plate isn't a linear expression.
The difference in sawing effort for more than a couple tenons is apparent in the feeling of the muscles when done. Tying into that, I believe one of the greatest cause of sawing errors is user fatigue when doing tenons.
However, you are correct. I hope I didn't summarily dismiss this saw. While I do believe sawing tenons is "easier" with a thinner plate, I have certainly cut some with small panel saws that are in the 35 thou plate thickness range at the toothline.
When push comes to shove, a saw one has is better than a saw one doesn't have (assuming the items you mention about the/a saw are true).
Take care, Mike
Too thick to make a decent tenon, too short to make a decent miter box saw. I would pass. This is probably one of the saws that turned America off of hand tools. Let's burn it! Teach it a lesson! Chances are if they got the plate thickness wrong, the length wrong, the handle can't be that good either. Perhaps like the Ford Pinto, this saw was made for people who hate to saw. "Yeah I hate to drive..I think I'll take that Pinto over there, the cheapest car on the lot. I mean, it's a car, right? What do you want?"Adam
P.S. That quote was essentially what my grandfather said when he bought his Pinto in 76.
Given the age and source of this saw, I agree that it is not necessarily an "ideal" or "perfect" saw - especially if one were to be using it a lot over long periods of time. And were I cruising flea markets for saws, I would probably pass on it in the hopes of finding an older one with features more to my liking.However, it appears that Mike D has found it worthwhile and useful enough, over the years, to have thoroughly dulled it. And, unless he is actually looking for a reason to buy a new/old tool, I think he'd find it worthwhile to sharpen it, or have it sharpened. I'm assuming he sees some potential continued use for it, or he wouldn't have asked the question in the first place. Other than that, none of us know exactly how he intends to use it.I fully understand that taking a slightly wider kerf than necessary requires more effort than ideal. Also, it may be a tad short according to some people's rather arbitrary "perfect" length. But, my contention is that properly sharpening and setting a saw (assuming decent steel), for its intended usage, will have more impact on its functionality and utility than these physical characteristics.I realize this isn't a very clever response, but I believe/hope it's more useful than questionable analogies.Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
"I realize this isn't a very clever response, but I believe/hope it's more useful than questionable analogies."
I agree it's a questionable analogy, so this being KNOTS we should of course carry it further!
Old saws are like project cars. You can choose grandfather's lime green pinto, or your can choose an old porsche. And people do both. Their choice reveals their sense of values etc. Let's assume (as is probably the case here) that either choice requires the same amount of effort. I would tend to put my effort into the better performing object.
Interesting side note-- Ray Pine chose the Pinto and drove it for 10 years. Remember younger KNOT heads that the Pinto enjoys the dubious distinction of being such a bad car that it's designers were criminally prosecuted. Clearly one of the worst cars ever built.
I, on the other hand, chose a porsche 944S2, the pinnacle of porsche's water cooled 4 cylinders. It made over 200hp in a viscously torquey 3.0l normally aspirated engine. It's superior suspension components made it a comfortable daily driver while remaining to this day a sought after club racer. Top speed was in excess of 150 mph.
So the question is which item do you put your effort into?
Don's right. You have the saw, and nothing to lose but your time sharpening it. And you'll learn something in the process. One thing you'll learn is how thicker saw plates are harder to set and file than thin. You'll also learn that porsches new or old are desirable for a reason. If you've got the scratch, just go get a new one. If you don't and you're willing to take on a project, I say get the porsche and fix that. (yes I'm talking about saws)
Adam
Well gee, Adam - all very clever. And I'm duly impressed that you chose a Porsche. It must get you lots of attention.I don't remember Mike D indicating that he wanted to get into road racing, though, so am not sure all that cleverness really answers his question as to whether his saw is worth sharpening. If his "project" saw were going to require huge amounts of time and money to return it to functionality, then your analogy might carry some weight. But, I don't see it.Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
Same amount of effort whether he restores the clunker or a better tool. I say go for the better tool and skip the clunker. No matter how good a job he does restoring it, it will still be a clunker
Adam
Don,As you have no doubt surmised, Adam does not suffer fools gladly. Or wise men. Or the moderately intelligent. Or those that have a different opinion. Or who drive M3s.I would pay to see him get pulled over in his Porsche, wearing breeches, leggings and a sock cap, with buckled shoes. It is an indelible image: highway patrol vs the 18th century.Alas, I too am an apostate. If the saw works for the user, I'd sharpen it. If it requires just a little work to do so, then do it yourself and learn how to... if it is in sad shape, I'd send it out. I had Cooke's sharpen some serviceable but distressed Disston's for me a while back- they did a fine job in less than 2 weeks for ~$20-25/saw, I think. Seems a modest investment- you could bank your nickels and save up for a Porsche (lol).Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Another example of why I love this group - answers, insight, philosophy, and fun.
As to the teeth, it has 11 points (printed on the side of the sawplate) so I guess that means 10 tpi.
I've bundled it off to be sharpened, just to see what it will do when professionally sharpened. I'm looking forward to getting it back.P.S. We also owned a Pinto that we drove until the wheels fell off. It was actually a pretty decent car if one wasn't rear-ended by a beer truck - it that case it was known for spectacularly disastrous gas tank ruptures that sprayed fuel into the passenger compartment before explosive ignition - think fuel-air bomb!Hopefully the saw, once returned, will not detonate in my hands.
"Another example of why I love this group - answers, insight, philosophy, and fun."Agreed! One of the aspects of this thread that I find interesting is the views from such distinguished folks. I hope you know who they are. You have 2-1/2 professional tool makers (I'm the 1/2), you have a couple professional furniture makers and several very accomplished hand tool users.In other threads where folks not unlike yourself are asking for opinions on tools, by far the predominant answer is to get the biggest and best one can afford. These purchases always far exceed the cost of a hand saw you'll have and find use for all of your life. In two of the respondents cases, they make tools which are rapidly becoming collectors items. I have little doubt their tools will be cherished for generations to come. Yet, these same fellows are suggesting the restoration of an older, and in one case admittedly not particularly good Craftsman tool.I poked fun at Ray. He gives me a lot of grief so he deserves it, but he's a professional furniture maker and a good one. And he doesn't have the very best of everything. I think that's an indication of skill trumping stuff. And again, this is not a common theme here on KNOTS.I don't know if you got lucky in hearing from these folks or if hand tool users approach their woodwork differently from the folks recommending the $1000 bandsaws in another thread.I started my woodworking career with antique tools, restoring at least a 100 saws. I still work with a fair number of clapped out older tools. Some are dogs. Some, I feel, are superior to new tools. But obviously (from this thread) I've become sympathetic to the "buy the best you can afford" sensibility we hear so often here on KNOTS. One thing we didn't hear however was more specifics. That's a question you probably should have asked. If one was to file this saw how should it be filed? If it is to be used in a miter box it should have cross cut teeth. I think 11ppi is not too coarse for a tenon saw, tho I like coarse saws. 11 MAY be too coarse for a 16" miter saw tho. Miter saws are typically much longer, often in excess of 20". You're not going to get much of a stroke in a 4" box at a 45 degree angle. So does the service file x-cut? Do they charge extra? How much for retoothing? The devil really is in the details.Adam
Lets see if I can provide intelligent answers to your questions.Based on Chris Schwarz's early recommendation, I've sent the saw to Mark Harrell at TechnoPrimitives (http://www.technoprimitives.com). Mark says he resharpens saws for $35, plus $10 if he has to retooth. This is a little more than others have suggested since, but not bad from my perspective. I get the impression that Mark also cleans up the saw and it's hardware as he works on it - I'll know more when I get the saw back.I won't be using it in a miter box - I agree - too short! But I've asked Mark to resharpen it as a cross cut saw - it's about the right size for a carcase or sash saw, and I'll ask him to suggest if he thinks it should be recut to a finer pattern for that usage. I really don't know how well this saw is going to work out - I'm looking forward to finding out, though!Best Regards,Mike D
And potentially the loss of a good deal of beer.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
G,
I would like to see Adam in a buggy-chase, inclusive of whips and C18th expletives or insults.
"You handle that horse, sir, like a strumpet with a boil"!
"Your buggy is claptrap, varlet; and you are the trapped clap"!
(Sound of snapping whips, defecating horses and small ragged urchins cheering-on the combatants).
Then the sheriff arrives with a blunderbuss.........
Lataxe
Adam:
Your statement "One thing you'll learn is how thicker saw plates are harder to set and file than thin" tells me I need to attend a really good class on saw sharpening. To learn, I bought a couple of books and a video. To get started I also bought some $5 flea market saws. I found it easier to practice and develop some skill on thicker saw plate (and larger teeth) before I tackled my first backsaw.
I don't recall Mike stating how many points per inch his saw has, but if it is 13 or fewer, it seems to me to be a good saw to learn sharpening on.
GD
Ah Adam,
Continuing your analogy:
Piloting your Porche with your kydex suit & kid gloves, or putting along in my blue collar Pinto, the trick really is all in being able to stay on the right side of the line, eh?
Ray
Edited 12/13/2008 9:59 pm ET by joinerswork
Absolutely. And I'm here to tell you my vehicle is easier to drive and goes faster. And everyone who's driven one says as much.I think it's cool that guys like you can cut decent joints with any hand saw. I have a lot of respect for that. But the question is what do we recommend for Mike D? I've gone back and forth on this issue. I've restored a lot of saws and made many saws. I've filed a lot of teeth in my day. You and i have had this discussion before. Strange, it was a similar analogy- do you have to be a great auto mechanic to be a great driver? I remember the discussion but don't remember who argued which side. Honestly I don't know the answer. At this point in time, I guess I feel like life is too short to screw around restoring second rate tools. Mike has access to saws of a design and quality that weren't available to you when you started. Am I wrong? Guys in your age group (not a slam) didn't have the choices in hand tools that we have today. One can buy a decent tenon saw today. Several companies make really excellent dovetail saws. Rob Lee gave me his new composite spined dt saw in Berea. It's really not a bad little saw. This has been a good discussion. I hope my analogy didn't grate on your nerves too much. Adam
Adam,
Don't worry, when you grate on my nerves, I'll tell you. Heh, heh.
You feel like life is too short to screw around with 2d rate tools. Yet you've spent a lot of time making and restoring saws. Do you wish someone had told you to quit screwing around, when you were gaining all that experience? Would you have listened? I think I know the answer to that ;-)
Guys in my age group didn't have the tool choices that you have? Where were those "golden oldies" you've restored, when I was a young pup? Did they pop out of the twilight zone into your worthy hands? Maybe they hadn't been built yet-- when I was starting out, we had to use Dis-stones,and Stanley-saurus teeth hah?
If you, or anyone else, is captivated by the cachet of your boutique tools, or the latest space age technology or swoopy modern lines, or simply by being able to afford the priciest offerings in the catalogs, all well and good. My point is that there are perfectly adequate tools, that inexpensive Kunz gent's saw included, that perform just as satisfactorily as more costly ones. Is that composite back better than a steel one? Does a handle of exotic wood with lots of tricky curves transfer force better than a simple beech one? Does a prettier tool make you better, as a craftsman? Or does it just make you feel better? Does it makes you feel better than those other shmucks? The neener-neener-nee-ner factor is worth a lot...
Ray
"My point is that there are perfectly adequate tools, that inexpensive Kunz gent's saw included, that perform just as satisfactorily as more costly ones."I'm just asking here- Have you tried the new "boutique" saws? Have you used Gramercy or Wenzloff dovetails? Have you tried a 19" Wenzloff tenon? I have a crown gent's saw that I bought in Woodcraft many years ago. And I remember how that felt and I remember what I did to it to make it work. That saw really isn't in the same league as these new saws. Like you, I can (and have) cut dt's with a hack saw. I've also cut dt's (at Pennsbury) with a 10 tooth framed tenon saw.Forget about the DT's the difference between a disston .032" tenon and a kenyon style .025" tenon is night and day. The plate thickness alone makes a huge difference. But the teeth are also better. The teeth on my saws change shape and size from toe to heel. Then there are the handles (hang angle) and blade lengths. These are really really nice tools. Adam
I've always been curious how one "tries" one of these saws as is often your recommendation. Are the manufacturers mailing them out for free trials? Is a five minute or less spin at a woodworking show enough time to make a decision? Should we order them and send them back until we find the right one?
Or is the reality that guys buy, and keep, several of these saws and end up with a collection of boutique saws that they flit back and forth between?
Specifics, please.
Edited 12/14/2008 8:36 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
Charles,
Well, it's a bit like fud & drink - you have to buy-to-try and then you've sullied it on your lip so return is to the kitchen is problematic. This is the nature of business. Even I know that! Cuh!! Although ....
I undrstand that there are various laws or commercial practices in the USA that do indeed allow a consumer to try & return, even if a "restocking" fee must be forefeited....? (One wishes there was such practice in Blighty).
Of course, you might consider establishing a relationship of trust with other humans whereby you eventually award (or don't) a good reputation to them and their recommendations. Then you might buy & try (on their recommendation) and have some degree of confidence that you won't be getting a pup. Sometimes you will get a-one nevetheless, as your two respective defintions of "pup" will differ.
Even if you don't trust a recommender (from whatever cause, endemic distrust in your case it seems) this does not logically equate to the recommended thing being inadequate, as you always seem to imply.
*****
How do you ever experience novel things? Are you stuck at some arbitrary time when you drew a cutoff line labelled "I know all I need to know"? Ah, but it is no longer 1579 and things change most rapid, sir, most rapid. Moreover, what you need to know is not what everyone else may need to know, in this oh-so-variable world.
I suppose all this is difficult if not impossible for a solipsist such as yoursen to grok.
Lataxe
There is little question that low-quality or improperly designed tools can be made to work, but that's not something to recommend to a beginner. Generally (though not always), when an experienced person states "I do just as well with tool XX, and it cost way less money than the current high-end offerrings", they are forgetting that they had the knowledge to modify and/or tune the particular tool to suit their purposes, that they've learned to get around the tools shortcomings (to the point that they don't even recognize those work-arounds as shortcomings any more), and that the particular example that they have in their possession is typical of that particular model/design (it often isn't in lower-priced categories).
So what it boils down to in a lot of cases is "I learned (the hard way) how to deal with the inadequacies of a particular tool, I've paid my dues, and you have to as well". I've heard almost this exact argument stated flatly to beginners on regular basis. However, I think this is mis-guided. Just because I put up with a really crappy Record with plastic handles for years, and learned to tune it to the point where it works pretty well, doesn't mean that I would ever recommend that an inexperienced person do the same - that's cruel. More importantly, there are a great many of beginners that are not nearly as stubborn as I was, and a significant fraction of those beginners will get frustrated and give up on a particular technique (hand sawing dovetails, for example), a particular handtool (like a plane), or the hobby altogether. And that, in my opinion, is a bad outcome, which is why I never recommend that a newbie interested in hand-planing get an old Stanley at the flea market.
dkeller,
I would not put my gent's saw in the same category as that plastic handled record. I did not need to modify or tune it, other than filing it as it gets dull, and initially drilling a hole in the handle for hanging. As far as working around its shortcomings, if learning to saw to a line is in that category, I guess it was so long ago that I've forgotten when that occurred, with this saw or some other one. I would contend that an even set to the teeth, stance, hand eye coordination and muscle memory have more to do with sawing to a line than the quality of steel in the blade or the type of wood in the handle. I'll concede the point that handle type is apparently important to most folks, and maybe my gent's saw handle type is my "work around", if you want to call it that, the product of my experience. But, I could say the same about your preference for what you like to use. I don't dislike pistol handled back saws, I have a backsaw with that type, and a tenon saw with a closed handle. I use them all as I need to, no drama.
Ray
"I would contend that an even set to the teeth, stance, hand eye coordination and muscle memory have more to do with sawing to a line than the quality of steel in the blade or the type of wood in the handle."
Indeed, but in many, many of the bargain-basement saws out there, the set is not appropriate for the task (usually too much set). The teeth are often not filed correctly (crosscut when they should be rip), the saw plate is sometimes far too thick. All of these things can be worked around, but I've seen enough beginners struggle with such a saw and not struggle with a well-made saw to think that it makes a big difference, and the money difference is just not significant enough to matter over the chance of a frustrating time. Moreover, I don't recommend that someone commit to memory the muscle and hand-eye coordination necessary to use a poor tool just because it can be done - the high-end saws from Lie-Nielsen, Adria, Mike Wenzloff, etc..., are just too inexpensive for that. Were they $500 or more, that might be different...
Since there are no suppliers than truly encourage such activity, "try such and such" is nothing more than a euphemism for amassing a collection of redundant tools and then making posts on an internet forum of one's impressions of them. Either that or be a total dic*head by buying a lot of stuff and returning it, knowing full well there was never any intention of keeping all of it even if found perfectly serviceable.If anybody wants to send me some tools to "try" please contact me by email and I'll be happy to provide a shipping address.I'd be thrilled to receive, for instance, one of each from Mike Wenzloff's line of fine saws. Who knows, I might buy.Mike?
Edited 12/15/2008 2:54 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
I'd be thrilled to receive, for instance, one of each from Mike Wenzloff's range. Who knows, I might buy. Mike?
It's the thought that counts, Charles!
Either that or be a total dic*head by buying a lot of stuff and returning it, knowing full well there was never an intention of keeping all of it even if found perfectly serviceable.
I have my own thoughts on this practice. I have always found this type of thing deplorable. Now that I make widgets, I would find it more so.
If people don't think that the couple hand tool companies who take back items with a smile haven't added this activity into the cost of the tools when new, they're wrong. These companies have to (and do) sell these tools at a discount via eBay and elsewhere. The profit in some circumstances is completely gone. Who pays for that? We all do, of course.
Same with companies such as grocery stores. A goodly portion of the cost of a box of cereal (and each of the other 30,000 items in the store) is predicated upon their huge loss through theft.
Take care, Mike
Charles,
Go to some ww shows! I think we held a ww show less than 150 miles from you. You just didn't go. I know you are busy and this isn't the bright blip on your radar screen. But folks DO have access to these tools.
I think guys should attend, join or start, a local ww guild. The neat thing about hand tools is that you can get together and bring your tools.
I moved my entire shop to Kentucky in the back of a minivan. I'm currently contemplating moving an entire class room because it's technically feasible with a hand tool shop. I mean, we don't shop in stores that have physical locations anymore. Why not go to a ww school that has no permanent residence? Why should 8 people travel? So image Colonial Williamsburg coming to Texas, Colorado, California, or Rhode Isalnd in the back of a U-Haul. I digress.
We're going to do something like this in Philly next month. I'm sure there will be more information about this in the near future. I'll have the new LV, A Wenz rip saw and a few of my new tools for guys to sample. The Gramercy saws will be there in force. And I can probably dig up several LN's if anyone is interested.
My point is we don't really need manufacturers' support for this kind of stuff. As hand tool woodworkers, we can move our stuff easily and therefore we should!
Adam
I'd rather sit at home and make bad sketches of furniture I'll probably never be able to build, no matter how nice a toolkit I have.Trust me, if I thought tools were the answer wild horses couldn't keep me away from the shows, tool catalogs, and out of my own bank account.I honestly don't think I've ever made a mistake that was the tool's fault. How do I know this? Because usually I had performed the operation before with the same tool and all went well. I made the mistake for the same reason that all humans do - lack of attention and simply being "off" that day. I don't get pissed and start looking for a new saw if I happen to saw off the mark. I've sawn perfectly straight with the same saw before. Why all of a sudden would it be the saw's fault? It isn't. Ditto planing, turning, etc., etc.I don't own one "cheap" tool - every model of every tool that I own has been used before by an outright master to produce fine works of decorative art. Every single one of them. This being the case, I can only look inward at my own decrepitude when it so often evidences itself. Maybe I'll get over all this introspection and start spending money like crazy. Then, could I join in all the reindeer games?
I don't think I've ever made a mistake that was the tool's fault (the fool's fault yes). But after getting really good tools I have been amazed at how much easier some jobs are that I used to struggle with without even knowing I was doing so.
Case in point, in 1985 I bought a Tyzack Turner "dovetail" saw from a cool little tool store in Portland Maine, cost $35.00 (a day's pay back then). It was wonderful, sharp and well balanced (compared to the little steel backed Stanley gents saw I was using). What a difference it made. My sawing got much more accurate I rarely needed to pare any cuts, it was great. I had to sharpen it and botched it up until I got good enough but it was still a beautiful thing.
Then when LN first bought out Independence Saws I bought one of them for the sexy open handle and man, what a difference! Maybe it was my lousey sharpening or the Tyzack's big clunky handle, but the LN just sang compared to the Tyzack (which is now my toolbox saw).
Then last year I got one of Mike's Kenyon sets and I picked up the small joinery saw to cut a small joinery-tail joint (dunno why we're not supposed to call them dovetail saws anymore). And I couldn't believe the difference! It was like a laser beam. My cutting accuracy improved and I thought "where has this been all my life!"
Funny thing is I never knew what I was missing. My dovetails were fine with the Stanley gent saw, better tools didn't (for me) make better work. They just felt better and made things easier and nicer. The Kenyon saw from Mike hurt me less to buy today at a well North of a hundred (a day's pay) than the Tyzack saw did at $35.00 twenty some odd years ago.
So bad tools don't make for bad work, but great tools in skilled hands add a sense of joy that's beyond function. Since I am a hobbiest I don't have to justify them as a business expense... I can just indulge.
David
I have a reasonably decent set of tools. Any improvement noticed by buying another brand would be well out at the margins, not enough to warrant the exercise I'm sure.When I need a tool to provide a certain capability I buy it. I think I have everything that I need. The tools at this point are of secondary concern - well not even that really. They just don't excite me at all I'm afraid. I know that some find this incomprehensible.
Edited 12/17/2008 9:02 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
I'm really enjoying this thread, and I can't wait to get my sharpened saws back, but a word about keeping the little dears sharp once you've got them.This, by the way isn't for you wiser, experienced bunch, but for newer knot-heads like myself. Don't make your replacement bench hook out of MDF. (I know ... duh!). I did because it was handy, flat, and I had a piece just the right size.I had forgotten that MDF is very abrasive to saw teeth. I now remember this because I pressed a little, formerly really sharp razor saw into service to trim a piece of wood required for a patch I needed to make, and it cut the first piece like butter. The second piece did not go so well. What's this? Dull already? Yep, just like it's daddy.Hummmm. Then I saw the saw mark on the MDF bench hook and the little gray cells remembered that MDF is very hard on non-carbide edges. Especially little ones. Rats!Mike D
Adam:Back to poor old OP and his question -- there are a couple of points yet to be made (or else they got made and I missed them). First, for a newcomer, repairing old tools is pretty good initial instruction on the tool. Secondly, in lots of cases with saws, as you know far better than I, the sharpening makes far more difference than anything else. I restored an badly abused Disston 4 a couple of years ago. It was so rusty that even now it looks like Damascus steel. The handle had to be completely refinished. I am not yet a competent sharpener, so I sent it out to one of the really good ones. That saw now cuts beautifully and effortlessly, even with the less than smooth plate. I don't like it near as well as I like my Wenzloff saws, but it does the job quite nicely. I paid about $10 for it, and another $15 or $20 for the sharpening, plus postage and the labor of cleaning it.Charles:Yes, you can tell a whole lot about a saw with a brief test drive. I've done it with old saws and new. However, in most cases, what you are feeling is the teeth -- the sharpening -- along with the weight and balance.Cheers!Joe
Adam,
I am in no way saying they are not really really really great saws. Just that you don't really really really need one of them to saw a tenon or a dovetail.
Ray
Hi Ray,
And this is where I would plug the new LV DT saw, and most likely the carcass saw they will eventually come out with...
I think from a new purchase perspective, the LV DT saw is comparable in price to a vintage DT saw that is in good shape. It is more price attractive than a vintage DT saw in excellent shape. Not to say one cannot on occassion get one from the 'Bay for less, but if one doesn't want to risk getting a dud or waiting to cut joinery until that time they happen on a less expensive vintage saw, they might as well get it from LV.
While there are less expensive offerings in the way of new gent's saws, I think for open handled saws, there isn't one better than LV's at that price point.
And fwiw, if you did a purchasing power comparison from the late 1800s until last year, you would find that today's saws cost today's buyers less than from that earlier period.
From one such calculator:$127.36 in the year 2007 has the same "purchase power" as $5 in the year 1900.And another:"What cost $5 in 1900 would cost $123.07 in 2007.
Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2007 and 1900,they would cost you $5 and $0.21 respectively."
And the first DT saw I bought in 1970 for just under $30 new? Now it takes roughly $154 to purchase that value, which is more than most DT saw offerings today. I well remember I was making $4.92 an hour in 1970.
Anyway, it is a fun exercise to remember how much our hard earned money bought us back in the day and try to not impose that romantic sense of value to today.
Take care, Mike
Dear Mike,
I sincerely hope that my thoughts on the usability of inexpensive saws did not come across as any kind of a criticism of your work or its value. That was the furthest thing from my mind. I would say the same thing (Here it is!) about custom made furniture. One of my chairs will not hold your butt off the floor any better than one purchased at Ethan Allen. The difference in cost will not matter to those who want the best, has an appreciation for style, and can afford it. But if someone just wants dining room furniture, it is disingenuous to say that Ray Pine's chairs are necessary for a properly furnished dining room.
I keep buying lottery tickets. I wasn't in the group in Piqua OH who hit the Mega Millions jackpot on Friday. But when that glorious day comes, you and philip will be among the first to know.
Best,
Ray
Ray,
Gamblin' is a SIN, my boy. It will corrupt you both before and after you win (which you won't - phew, you are saved).
That's a nice simile atween the furntiture of quality and the saws. Don't put it about too widely or IKEA may start flogging MDF frou-frou stuff in flat packs and there's another 5 of your customers gone. :-)
The trick is to concentrate on the quality of the things (tools, furniture, whatever) that you would prefer and then find the dosh to pay for them. You are thnking first of dosh, which always leads to the accountant's life (lived down to a price). One day I will show you my paltry pension and you will gasp that I even think about a Marcou.
It helps if one avoids gambling and other money drains. Getting the child-rearing over at an early stage in life is a good strategy. (I am hoping mine will keep me in my dotage). Then there is the incredible cost of maintaining old and knackered motorsickles.............
Lataxe, whose many mickles make muckles (or is it the other way aboot, I forget since the currency went metric).
PS I agree entirely with DK concerning the "don't be cruel to newbies" sentiment. It happened to me when I were a-one(sob).
Lataxe,
This must be a British thing - "The trick is to concentrate on the quality of the things (tools, furniture, whatever) that you would prefer and then find the dosh to pay for them."
I had a British girlfriend once (twenty five years ago), a ballet dancer, who never had a cent of money. She always looked smashing though - having great legs was a great help in that department, of course.
Her philosophy was that you didn't need to own very much. But what you did own had to be of the best quality. Her wardrobe consisted of very few articles of clothing, but it was all high end stuff. She was able to combine those few pieces artistically to create modern and stylish looks.
I learned a lot from that woman and never forgot her lessons..
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Hey Ray--absolutely not!
I liken the issue of hand saws to other tools I bought when I actually built stuff. There are some tools I purposefully didn't spend a lot on and didn't seem to matter. And there are some that cost dearly--even to the point of borrowing money on 90 day notes or on credit.
The the function of those spendy tools well could have been met by less expensive ones. I looked at those purchases from the perspective that I wanted those tools in a certain performance, longevity and useablility standpoint. To me, hand tools are no different--not now nor when I got paid to make stuff.
I know a local shop that has either 2 or 3 Multi-Routers (perhaps more now). While I never bought one, it would have been a handy tool. They have saved time and hence been more profitable because of it over the years. I know quite a few other shops that use less expensive tools to accomplish the same work, decrying the cost of the things. Which shop made the correct decision?
As regards saws, I do think that the new LV saw is the best bang for the buck in DT saws. And, even to this cheapo, is pretty cost effective.
Again, no worries. I think we are a pretty civil bunch by and large and, with few exceptions, mean no ill towards others whether we would disagree or not.
Take care, Mikeitching to be done today so I can play a bit in the snow...
"One can buy a decent tenon saw today."
FWIW, I just used the new Gramercy today. What a fantastic saw. Thin blade, good compromise between cutting fast and cutting smooth. I'm sure their are others that I haven't had the pleasure to use, but Joel's recent offerings are great!
Adam,
To turn your analogy in a different direction. In August of '72, I bought a brand new Pinto. It must have been built on a wednesday, when all the workers were neither hung over, nor thinking about the coming weekend. It was a good car. I drove it for about 10 years, put 140 some thousand miles on it. Paid $2000, sold it for $900. In between, I replaced two or three headlights, brake linings, tires, and just before I sold it, a timing chain.
Now, it was nothing like driving the Buick or the Chrysler that I had afterwards, for effort, comfort or safety, but you know, despite the looks cast down the noses of my betters, it got me down the highway until I could afford something nicer.
Of course this is coming from a fellow who still cuts his dovetails with a $10 Kunz gent's saw. Full disclosure, I haven't measured how thick its blade is.
Ray
Unless you're going to use the saw again with the miter box (or unless you intend to make a new miter box to go with the saw), you'll probably never use it for anything. So having it sharpened might be considered a waste of money.
That's a big, heavy, thick saw, and its only use is in a miter box application. It's too big for sawing tenons, for instance, or dovetails. So, unless it's going back into service doing miter work, with a box made for it, you'd be better off saving your money for a saw that will work for the specific purpose you have in mind.
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
I agree with MWENZ -- do the job yourself. In fact, you have enough material there to grind the teeth off and start over several times if need be, so it's a great opportunity to learn to do your own sharpening. And, you save a few bucks to use for another saw if you want one.
Aside from saving money, there are some real advantages to sharpening your own saws. I've always found factory jobs - at least on less expensive saws - have the teeth over-set. When you do it yourself, you can adjust the set to cut a much narrower kerf and the saw will track better.
Mike, sharpen the saw to the best of your ability and use the damn thing to cut some wood.
Hi Mike.... I love to swim against the tide, so I'll vote TO sharpen it. It's 'just a good user' saw. I have no idea of where you are located, so with that in mind, open your 'Yellow Pages' to sharpening services or saw sharpening. Everyone I know who sharpens circular saws also sharpens streight saws. You didn't say how many teeth or points to the inch, but I'll bet it can be sharpened easily. Another option is to stop in at the local hardware store (not HD or Lowes) and ask them if they have a sharpening service. Another option is to stop in at a local cabinet shop and ask where they get their saws sharpened. The only saw I can not get sharpened is a dovetail saw with 26 teet to the inch. It's just too small for commercial sharpening machinery, so I impose on a friend who likes to do hand-sharpening.
SawdustSteve Long Island, NY (E of NYC)
Hi Steve,
Great input. I didn't know that those that sharpen circular saws typically will also sharpen hand saws - good to know.
Mike D
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