On the principle of put up or shut up and stop griping I offer the following:-
The hardest part to get right in cutting dovetails, in my experience was the advice to cut beside the line after transfering tails to pin board, or vice versa. Eliminate that and even I can produce adequate joints. Here’s how to do it.
1) Cut a kerf in scrap and find a metal shim that just fits it, I used an old feeler gauge. Width must not be greater than stock thickness so as to not bind in clamping.
2) After cutting tail kerfs by eye place tail stock on top of edge of pin stock to transfer marks. However butt the right hand sides up against a bit of (in my case) 3inch ally angle fixed to the bench and before clamping insert the shim between the pin board edge and the ally. Transfer all the kerfs leaning to the left. Now switch the shim to position it between the tail board and ally, snug everything up and transfer kerfs leaning to the right. I can do it faster than reading about it!
3) Cut tail kerfs on lines made, no need to adjust. Remove waste and assemble joint. Avoid trying a shim thinner than the kerf for the joint will be loose.
Photos available if interested.
Replies
David,
Sounds like another FWW dovetail article is in the wings awaiting its debut. :-)
Lets have them photos then. I am ready to order a fine tooth saw, not to mention brass shim stock!
Lataxe
Thank you David, no humour here I must get this right. Will George, HELP!
The first image shows tail bd cuts. Now my eyes need help so I cover end of bd with wide masking tape and then use cutting gauge as a guide to depth of cut. Peel off tape above the shoulder line. A line of tape has no thickness and is easy to cut down to. I used instinct for spacing but no harm in measuring.
The next two images are the key and do not simply show a kerf marker. We are borrowing from the metalworkers use of slip gauges for accuracy. The first image shows the tail bd touching the aluminium angle but the pin bd clamped vertically is set to the left by a shim inserted between the bd and the aluminium. In this state we transfer all the kerfs leaning to the left, by any means we like so long as a kerf groove is shown on the pin bd. The marker I used was just convenient.
The missing image is on the next post.
I just read another How To article on dovetails...
One thing that was stressed...
During the layout, ALWAYS mark the WASTE areas...
... when cutting, just remember to cut ALL of the waste out.
I think that will help me... remains to be seen... But, it's sure clearer in my mind.
"Photos available if interested." That's the only way I'll figure it out -- yes, please!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Having dug a hole I must continue. Please bear with me! The first image shows the second stage of marking the pin bd. The spacer has been removed from the side of the pin bd which is slid to the right to snug up to the aluminium angle. The tail bd is slid to the left to allow the kerf spacer to be put there instead. I used a ruler as a shim becos no one would have seen the narrow feeler gauge.
Now all kerfs leaning to the right are marked. Next photo shows those marks.
I cover the sides of the pin bd with tape and cut with cutting gauge as for tail board.the pin kerfs can now be cut EXACTLY on those marks. No fitting or paring adjustments on the sides of the saw cuts will be needed. My dovetail saw is modified, I filed off the teeth at the front by about 2inches and sharpened that section to a knife edge. Thus in cutting the blade flows in to any kerf marks and makes life easier.
The rest is on the next reply.
Thanks for the pics, Multi! In between customers here at work, I cropped and resized them for our dial-uppers. So, I'll plug in line right here for viewing.
View Image
View Image
View ImageView Imageforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl,Thank you very much for reducing the size of those pics...
... it's so much easier to see the smaller pics in that small Frame!Joe
You're welcome! Here are a couple of tips for the large pictures -- first of all, when you see an attachment, right click on it and select "Open in new window." That way, you get an entire window available instead of just the small frame here at Knots.
Secondly (this is all assuming you're using Windows XP and Internet Explorer), go to Internet Tools...Internet Options...Advanced and scroll down to Multimedia and select "Enable Automatic Image Resizing." Using that option, no matter how large the original image is, the IE browser will resize it to fit your window.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thank you for the resizing advice, you are a great help to all. I was tired and astonished to see what I had posted!
Just a small point, I have repressed my alter ego so can I go back to being mufti instead of multi?
Cheers, David I think (but not much).
"can I go back to being mufti instead of multi?" ROFL!!! You can tell how bad my eyes are! I thought "Hmmmmm, m-u-l-t-i.....funny name, wonder what he means by that...." Sorry, mufti!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
has a nice ring to it though!
Forestfrill, it also works on Firepox.Philip Marcou
Cool, glad to hear it. I never know what computer behaviors cross over between browsers.
I'd hoped to be more than a frill, but guess I can live with it, LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Wow, for a minute I thought you had cut that outstanding joint instead of just cleaning up Mufti's graphics.
Edited 6/28/2006 7:53 am ET by BossCrunk
Thank you for the resizing job, I have spent many hours looking for the tool to do that. Now have it so as a treat I am sending you a photo of my adjustable d******l gauge and, would you believe it ,made in the USA! By altering the screws you can fix any acceptable angle. Any reasonable s/hand metalworking tool shop may have one.
Teasingly yours,
Minimufti.
David
If you are looking for a programme to resize images, the best I have come across is JPEG Resampler
http://software.macek.cc/resampler.php
It is freeware.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Thanks Derek, strangely enough I have just found the built in sizing tool here but now have downloaded your suggestion.
Earlier in this thread (post 31 & 33) Derek Cohen posted pictures of his jig for paring dovetails. I had been looking for a method to cut sliding dovetails with hand tools and landed on this method at Furnituremasters.org http://www.furnituremasters.org/moreby.cfm?ID=26
As it turns out the guide bar described at Furnituremasters adapted very well to Derek's jig. One side of the guide is cut at 90 degrees for paring dovetails and guiding the sliding dovetail plane. The opposite surface of the guide is cut at 80 degrees to serve as a guide when paring the sliding dovetail socket. The modified jig eliminates all the awkward clamping you see in the original article.
The plane is a modified skewed shoulder plane. A real clunker I picked up on Ebay, but it served the purpose well. The sole and blade must be cut at a 10 degree angle to match the guide bar. The article at Furnituremasters explains it all. Hopefully my pictures will give a better explanation for modifying Derek's jig.
Hi Chuck
That's an excellent adaptation. I must give it some thought!
With regards sliding dovetails, what you request has been done by a few, myself included. Here is a link to an article I recently completed, "Evolving a Dovetail Plane".
http://www.wkfinetools.com/MUTools/mTools/dovPlane/index.asp
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Nice job on the article. Did you just post that recently because I thought I had found all there was on the subject. It's nice to see a couple of clunkers get a new lease on life:)
I actually thought about fitting up an adjustable fence but I think I like the taller guide bar better. I'm still debating the addition of a nicker. On 1/2 to 1" stock that shoulder isn't that deep. I just score the line a couple of times with a knife, take a few swipes with the plane, score again and watch as the planed surface moves out to outer edge. Then your done. The whole process only takes a few minutes, but like anything it takes a little practice.
The groove takes more time and I'd like to see what kind of plane you come up with for doing that part.
Regards from Greensburg,
-Chuck
Derek, I tried the Jpeg resampler and found all sorts of strange side effects, leading to the loss of outlook express. Removal of the program corrected everything, so I tried again later, to find other programs turning turtle. Strangely enough when I ran a listing of programs on the PC it did not show. I slid it into the bin and emptied it and all is well again.
I am mentioning this just in case anyone gives it a try and has similar problems. I still am grateful for the suggestion which obviously works for some.
MicroSoft Picture Manager (included with Windows XP) has a resize function that works well.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
I looked at their web page, but I tend to be leary of shareware programs, especially when I already have e or 4 programs that do the same thing. Anyone with a camera or scanner should, by definition, have a picture editing program on their computer, LOL!
I did buy (cheap on eBay; old version) Jasc PhotoShop Album which is picture editing and organizing program. One of the things I really, really like about it is the ability to do batch operations. Click on 10 thumbnails, and resize all of them at once. Or rename them. Or convert to B&W. It has an excellent "Quick Fix" button, and more specific editing capabilities that are very user friendly. When I want to do something more technical, I use PaintShop Pro. Though that program has gotten so complicated, my capabilities are far exceeded now.
If you have time, perhaps you could write the authors and tell them what happened. I'd be interested to know what their response is. One of the things I'm uncertain about, in general, is when I need to turn off security. It seems security stuff might affect program installations sometimes?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thank you and rennie for your help. It was your mentioning of batch resizing in an earlier post that prompted mine.
My pain in the butt (daughter) came home to find she could not use her computer and I had to think fast- I blamed the server- system restored twice and then removed the last program installed!
Looking on the bright side I can now type. I never turn security off and scans say we are clean.
David
I am sorry to hear of your experience. It is a first for me. JPEG Resampler has always worked perfectly for me (and others). It can dial in the exact size one wants, and it works with batches of images as well.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Thanks FG for resizing!. I live 5 miles from town (pop. 100,000) but can't get ANY kind of broadband. Dial-up is a bummer.Frosty/Jerry
"Dial-up is a bummer." Amen to that! I'm a recent conversion to DSL, so the agony of dial-up is a fresh memory. It's hard to educate folks to keep their file sizes down, though. In truth, it's rare that a photo needs to be more than 40 or 50 kb (hint, hint, hint).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Great lesson. Even at 25 KB they are plenty legible.Did you ever get to saw your cedar logs to make your picket fence?Frosty/Jerry
Case in point: I batch resized the latest attachments, reducing them from 1016 x 762 (overkill) to 450 x 337 (a fine size for most monitors). Took about 10 seconds. If I'd done them individually, it might have take a minute total. What I don't know is if they might have been compressed a bit more, but still.... Here they are:
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 7/24/2006 11:28 am by forestgirl
Forestgirl,
Thanks for the resizing. This was my first attempt at posting pictures and I fussed with them for some time. I did resize them 50% in Paint Shop Pro but the next time I'll try 25%. I know too well what life in dial-up is like:)
-Chuck
Hi Chuck
Google for "JPEG Resampler". It is a free program and the best for resizing images.
The article was written recently, but the work was done about a year ago, and this included much discussion on the 'net.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi Chuck. I used to use PSP all the time, and used percentages. Now I've gotten used to specifying a pixel-oriented size. Generally, 350-400 wide works fine.
I've lost my discs for the older Paint Shop Pro program, so I bought #9. The new interface (post-JASC) is so confusing and I have no real reason to learn it, so I've relied on Paint Shop Photo Album for most of my editing. I think I'm getting old.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Me again. A question for you: With Paint Shop Pro, when you connect the camera and download, is there any way to keep all the pictures from opening?? This just drives me nuts! I don't mind if thumbnails appear, in a directory view for instance, but I don't want the full-size pictures actually opening up.
Thanks for any help!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Get a card reader (about $20 or less), connect it to your USB, and don't connect your camera at all. Just slide in the chip. Then you can access it like a disk drive, and you don't have to use any image processing program at all, just use Windows Explorer to copy the files around.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Hi John. I don't like to handle the memory card any more than absolutely necessary. I really like to "view camera images" and then select and download, which I can do with the Photo Album software. It's just the Paint Shop Pro has this aggravating setting where it opens all of them, instead of just showing the thumbnails. When I've got 100 pictures there from a family gathering, it just kills my computer, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have PSP ver 8.1 and can't find any way to stop it from loading every picture. I like it for editing but that sure is a nasty feature/bug. I use ThumbsPlus to download thumbnails from the camera.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Yep, that is an incredibly dumb "feature." It's the only program I've used that doesn't have options on downloading.
We have a computer we picked up at an estate last year, which has 1 gig of video memory. The PSP thing probably won't bother it, LOL. But sheesh, you still have to close all the darned things. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
Someday when time is long I'll get onto the Corel web site and ask at the forum about that problem.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
To tell you the truth I don't download from the camera with PSP. I have the Kodak Easy Share software that boots that automatically and I can control the transfer with that. I would have thought I could resize with the Kodak software but I couldn't find where. I'm not that good with PSP myself but we use it at work so I know a little about it. Actually I have Ver 6 on my home PC.
Sorry,
-Chuck
Hi Mufti
I'd love to see your version. I did this too some time ago (sorry, there is nothing new under the sun - someone will likely chip in with an even earlier version):
View Image
Here is a link to how I made the chisel (out of a steel trowel):
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=186201#post186201
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 6/27/2006 7:47 am ET by derekcohen
Derek,
Maybe I'm missing something... but, the link you gave, to me, just points to a similar post that you posted here...
Has nothing to do about...
"Here is a link to how I made the chisel (out of a steel trowel):".
Am I missing something?
Is the link supposed to be different?
That really looks unique... Looks like you ground down a regular chisel... But, it's so thin... looks like it could break very easily.
Thank you for sharing,
Little Joe
Hi Joe
For some reason the link takes you to the middle of the thread. It is all there, just go up.
For ease, here is a quote:
Here are a couple of doo-dads I made today. They have been on my To Do list for a while. Nothing particularly innovative or even pretty, just useful.The first is (what I call) a "chisel marking knife". Well, it is really a chisel-shaped marking knife for skinny dovetails. I decided that I needed a marking knife for very skinny dovetails - to be able to slide a blade between the kerf-wide gap at the top - as I could not use any of the the others that I have because they were just too thick. I have used a Stanley Knife blade to do this to date. I wanted something that could be punched downward on the inside face of the tail or, alternately, could be used as a standard double-sided marking knife. It would just have to be very thin, as thin as a Stanley Knife blade.This one is made out of a steel plaster trowel (really tough steel - I wonder what it is?). Its final dimensions are 3/4" wide x 1" long and 1mm thick. It is bevelled at the front and sides (45 degree bevels). The plan is to do the saw cuts for the tails - but not cut out the waste - then place the tail piece over the pin piece and mark off the pin placement through the kerfs. Only then cut the tail waste.
View Image
Hope this all makes more sense now.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,Thank you!!If I understand, the bottom one that looks like a chisel is what you're using now?Made out of a plaster trowel...I wonder if a putty knife would work? Might be a little flimsy... In yours, I like the strong metal going into the handle... for sturdiness.The technique is good too... Providing one can saw those Tail slits nice and straight... :) You can actually cut those Tail slits anywhere you want, as long as they're in the general form to make a Tail (after the dots are connected)... Your pins MUST match... without question.The tail slit / guide also stops any possible mis-marking due to off-angle-alignment... the pin marks will be EXACT without ANY deviation whatsoever!Am I thinking right now?!Thanks again,
LJ
Am I thinking right now?!
LJ
Yes.
This thread was begun by Mufti. I butted in excitedly because we had come up with the same idea. But now I'd really like to give Mufti the opportunity to share some of his work (as he did say he had pictures to show).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Apologies, Derek but may I ask you to read my previous replies? The posted images here show the tail bd partly cleaned up and the final result oiled so it can be seen.
Traditional chopping does not make sense to me. Why start chiseling in front of the line just in case the edge moves back over the shoulder line? I start by sawing those little verticle wedges at the side of the pins and then place the chisel edge on the line and, leaning the chisel at 45degrees cut a wedge away from the shoulder. Then when I chop vertically I have created a weak point on the waste side and the shoulder is not harmed.
I thank you for your comments and realise I did not make the slip gauge connection clear at the outset. If the shoulders are clean then the parts go together without any attention, provided the spacer used is the same width as the kerfs cut.
Now I'm going to lie down in a dark room.
Hi Mufti
We are not quite done yet, so have a little snooze, rest your eyes for a while, then we can complete a dovetail strategy that will increase the confidence of would-be handcut dovetailers.
I like the idea of yours to use masking tape as a fence for the baselines. You did not say how you removed the pin/tail waste, whether you chop or saw-and-pare. You did say that getting it to the line is an issue, and I agree. This is difficult for many, and so I developed a jig to help keep the baselines straight and make this process a quicker and easier one. This jig has just been published in the latest Popular Woodworking Tip section, so I am not sure if I can post it here. PW did draw it, and I do have photos of my own one. Am I allowed to post the pics here?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Unless you are restricted by agreement and compensation from the magazine, you can post any of your original work anywhere you wish. And, I for one, would like to see the jig.
This is a great series of exchanges and I am certainly learning form it.
Thanks
Unless you are restricted by agreement and compensation from the magazine, you can post any of your original work anywhere you wish. And, I for one, would like to see the jig.
Doug, thanks for confirming this. My only agreement was that it was not published in another magazine beforehand. I am aware that copyrite exists with the author. There is no reason that I cannot post a picture of the one I made (PW used drawings) or describe its use with different wording.
The description and drawings in PW are better and the mag is worth getting just for this jig :)
View Image
What we have here is a one-piece 90-degree L-shaped fence and a sliding depth stop. This is loose and tightened down by the bolts in sight.
This is used after you have cut the tails and are now seeking to pare the baselines in a straight line and with vertical faces.
Slide your board against the side fence and align the scribed baseline with the front fence. Slide up the depth stop. You are now set.
The front fence permits vertical paring. When you need to pare the other side (halfway from each side, remember), simply loosen the fences, slide out the board, flip it over, slide it up against the depth stop, and retighten the fences. For the flip side, only the front fence needs to be aligned.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Thank you posting the photo and description. One question: the jig seems fixed to handle one size board. Unless I'm missing something I can't see how you accommodate boards of varying widths.
Doug?
One question: the jig seems fixed to handle one size board. Unless I'm missing something I can't see how you accommodate boards of varying widths.
Doug
That jig can handle a drawer/box with a depth of 12" and an indefinite width/length.
You are looking at the end of the board (that determines the depth of the drawer/box). The width of this extends as far back as you wish to go.
Here is another perspective. Just consider that the board here is the side of a drawer.
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Aah! This perspective clears it up. Thanks.
Thanks Derek, sorry for the delay in reply but I can only come out in the dark. The pin/tail waste removal is done according to the wood, a dense and fine beech I find will chop clean whilst for softer and less dense woods I use a jewelers saw. In both cases however I remove the 45degree wedge each side as mentioned in another post because it creates a weakness on the waste side and chisel,sawblade (or Hegner) will deviate in that direction in preference to mucking up another shoulder. In my case if there is a chance of a mistake I can be relied upon.
I buy PW but are we looking at issue 155?
Cheers, David.
I buy PW but are we looking at issue 155?
Hi David
Just a quick reply this time inbetween consultations. The jig is in the latest version of PW - not sure the number - it is the one with the write up on the gathering of the planemakers (sounds like something occult, doesn't it!).
Regards from Perth
Derek
And now I forgot the photo's Sorry!
If it works, perfect it and don't look back.
i like the idea of it. if you've got the pics, by all means, let's see'um. i just watched cosman's dvd on dovetails last night, so this is very timely.
a couple thousand word's worth can only help more.
mufti,
By all means, show us your pictures...
We are interested...
Thank you... Thanks again to Derek...
This IS very interesting,
Little Joe
Dear Sir, I regret to inform all that Mufti has been taken into care suffering with a severe case of the doolalies, consequent with attempting to think beyond his cell brain, (mono-cell). Rest and soothing words accompanied by international money orders may help. Sincere thanks to all, his wife and sixteen starving waifs.
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