Ok. I’m sure this will start a barrage of posts, but can anyone tell me why a lot of people seem to be down on Norm Abram?
As a new woodworker, I find his style easy to follow and understand.
I was reading an old Fine Woodworking magazine and one of the letters smacked of snobbism as the person wrote that since Norm uses a biscuit joiner he is a heathen. Wouldn’t a biscuit joiner just be considered a new tool, just like when dowels were invented?
I’m putting on my Nomex suit, so flame away. :o)
Michael
Replies
Michael,
No flame from me. I personally am "down" on Norm because he makes fundamental, technical mistakes, along with what I would call procedural mistakes, or perhaps colloquially called "philosophical" mistakes--usually because of his complete reliance on power tools.
As examples of both of these: he was making "quilt racks" (if I remember right) and one featured wedged, through tenons. He put the wedges in along the grain of the mortised member. In other words, he drove in a wedge so that it would split the wood. I doubt that piece lasted its first New England winter. This is the sort of technical error he routinely makes.
An example of the sort of procedural error I refer to is the treatment of some of antique lumber he so often uses. (I don't know why this one sticks with me, but it is the example I most often use.) This lumber was old pine. He went on and on about how beautiful it was, how tight the grain was, and so on. But most of all he raved about how wide it was; about how rare lumber that wide was; how each piece is a precious resource... Then he ripped that lovely wide board in two--only to later joint the sawed edges and glue it back together the way it was before he ripped it. Why did he cut it in two? Because otherwise it would not fit through his thickness planer.
I also have some aesthetic differences with Norm. for example, I think his original turnings--when he's not copying an existing turning--are too "clunky"; they look heavy and lack grace. This is, I think, typical of his original designs. But, again, these are aesthetics and others will disagree.
But perhaps the biggest complaint is that he is the only "mentor" many beginners have. So many neophyte woodworkers learn many wrong lessons. I'm one of them. For many years I couldn't figure out how anyone made anything without power tools. I liked designing and making things, but I certainly didn't enjoy working with power tools. It took a real mentor to show me the true joys of woodworking.
Alan
I am lazy. I like power tools, I like Norm, and similar to Norm and being human, I too make mistakes. One mans wine is another mans poison.
Just yesterday I was talking with a wood worker who owns nothing in the way of power tools except a battery driven drill. He was extolling the "clean sweep of the tempered steel chisel" as it removed shavings of wood and the joy he experienced working with hand tools. He is so basic that he cuts his wood, be it walnut venerred panels or studs, with a hand saw and uses a miter box and hand saw for miters.
I asked him if he bought his wood already cut or if he treaked through the forests looking for the perfect tree which he could fell with his stone ax and then process with stone tools. He didn't think I was very funny. Merely making a point.
I agree with many of the opinions here...both for and against Norm, but the cons far out-weigh the pros.
You will not hear me saying that I'm a pro. Technically, I have had 5 years formal training in overall woodworking. However, that was 8th grade shop through Advanced Woodworking-Independent Study. In reality, I count the last two years of that training as true study. My I.A. instructor was truly a master at his trade. (All of this was to give you a background on me so you can weight my response accordingly...I am a hobbiest...very enthusiastic....but a hobbiest none the less)
When I first saw Norm, I thought the show was awesome because I loved woodworking. It was that simple. Then, as my skills advanced, I saw Norm build projects that DEFINITELY WOULD NOT STAND THE TEST OF TIME. For example, he built a bed with a peice of curved trim. Instead of steam bending the trim, he cut a piece of maple and cut a dado down the center of its length. That straight piece of trim was then bent around the curve (about a 12' radius)he showed the first clamp and the last clamp that he used to bend it around and he showed the audience how to use the porter cable trim nailer to put ONE BRAD into each end of the trim. He did not even use glue. as soon as those clamps were taken off, which he never showed, he had a time bomb waiting to smack someone in the teeth. I watched in awe.
I will admit that Norm has brought MANY people into the woodworking industry, hobbiest and pro alike. This feat, along with the education of others in the field of woodworking is why he was inducted into the Woodworking hall of fame. the emphasis was on "HE". Not the 1000 people involved with the shows that he's been involved with, nor the producer(s) that probably had the idea for the show in the first place. I highly doubt that 50% of the ideas on the show are originally his. But regardless of these facts, his name is up there with the likes of Sam Maloof...what a crock.
The guy on Woodwright's shop shows ten times more talent than Norm does. Furthermore, I would guess that AT LEAST 15% of the member of this forum have skills that exceed Norm's... If the WW Hall of Fame was designed for the top 15%, then why isn't it bigger?
-Del
Well first and foremost I would like to say that Norm has brought woodworking to the fore front of the general public. Much like Bruce Lee brought the martial arts to the publics eye and popularized it.
Now I would like to comment on his show in general. Norm is in the market to sell tools. He does a good job at it. he makes people believe they actually cant perform certain operations with out dedicated tools that a lot of us have made jigs to perform.
I liked the NYW when he first started with the contractors saw and the makita router, using half laps ILO mortise and tenon for doors and using his router to make M&T joints. He was more into woodworking and showing/teaching skills then he is now. Now he is into selling tools and finishes for sponsors and selling videos and plans for himself as well as books and endorcements and personal appearances. I would like to see once just once a picture of his scrap pile... Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Another show, I lke better is WOODWORKS on DIY network? With David Marks, Yes he uses some advanced machines, but does more projects that I have a liking to. Never seen Norm use a hand scraper, hand plane?
makinsawdust
I was on vacation recently where we were able to get Norm's show. He is very clever in making jigs and I think there are things to learn from this very nice man. There are things he does I don't care for such as using biscuits for structural joints and some of the finishes he uses.
I think you need to keep an open mind when trying to learn from anyone and be selective about what you walk away with.
Frank
These days I do alot more reading from good woodworking books , nice to be able to have it open when you are making something. the Andy Rae cabinetmaking book from FWW is a good onemakinsawdust
The "New" yankee workshop refers to power tools not, hand tools.
I personally like the variety of his projects; the furniture is more like my wfe likes. But, Woodworks shows weekend projects as often as Norm and seems even cheaper in quality. None of these shows can show in depth joinery; pity, due to sponsor and time constraints! They just give us a few ideas to start with that require us to find the appropriate joinery and details.
I reiterate an earlier comment, the experts don't do these shows because the take too long to properly show the procedures and the sponsors want to restict how its done. Norm sells machines well but, I believe his projects have better methods at times. The little tables and such can be done quicker and better with a combination of hand/power tools.
Still wish the "experts" could do a show the common schmoe could see weekly for an hour or so on PBS.
Del,
I would have to disagree with your assessment that 15% of the people here have skills better than Norm. My guess would be that 70-80% of the people here have Norm's skill level. You put anybody with an interest in woodworking in his shop, give them his budget and editing capabilities and anyone could be 'Norm'.
I'm not 'bashing' Norm for what he is, but I have yet to see him display any above average skills. Anyone can set a machine and get the results desired. His continual 'boastings' that, "I made this entire (table) and used only one hand tool" isn't something that I would be particularly proud of myself. A reliance on machines is a good place to start, but 'woodworking' is different than 'machine operating'. Wood is a 'substance with a soul' and I am not sure Norm honors that aspect of the craft.
I think Norm has done wonders for the entry level woodworker and thank him for providing a format for basic information. I just think he is an slightly above average woodworker with a great PR team.
Tom
Tom,
I may agree with you regarding the 70-80% value. But I wanted a conservative value that would be indisputable. That was why I said AT LEAST (I even capitalized it in the original post). However, the points of my post were:
1) If Norm was inducted into the woodworking hall of fame for his skills, then there are AT LEAST 15% (could be 30%, could be 50%, etc.) of the members within this forum that should also be inducted.
2) If Norm was NOT inducted for his skills, but was instead inducted for his educational contributions to the woodworking industry, then they should not give such an honor to him. They should instead split the honor between the producer, the staff, the writers, the camera operators, etc. He plays such a small part in the production of the show.
I may not have mentioned this earlier, but I have a sneaky suspicion that Porter Cable, DeWalt, Delta, etc all chipped in and bought his hall of fame nomination for him so he could get more recognition and get viewers and sell more tools. This forces me to reduce the amount of respect I have for the Hall of Fame. I have no data, nor proof what-so-ever, to support this claim. But it would not surprise me.
-Del
I have no critique of what you wrote. You call it as you see it and rightly so.
I too have differing opinions but that is what makes life interesting. Norm is doing what each of us would like to be doing and is succesful at it - He is making a very good living presenting a subject he obviously enjoys doing. How many of the purists who critique Norm can say the same thing. I doubt that it is Norms intention to be a mentor to any budding wood worker. Norm is in the business to make the best living he can and I suspect he is more than satisfied with his results.
To those who believe his procedures are too flawed to watch - then don't watch. If you who critique Norm are better at what he does than Norm is - then go into the TV wood working shows yourself and find out what you can accomplish in 1/2 hour. As to constructing something to last forever, the only people I know of who have done that are the ancient Egyptians and then only because their work was protected in the pyramids.
What difference does it make, how big his scrap pile gets, or that an occasional dowel is incorrectly placed, and that he is more or less advertising tools. We all know that in 1/2 hour a project cannot be completed from beginning to end - so what - what we see are a few of the highlights of the project. what more is to be expected in 1/2 hour.
As to "safety" - I catch very few of Norms shows, however he mentions safety enough to satisfy myself. As too SAFETY - mechanical safety devices encourage carelessness - little more. I never use a blade guard or splitter on a saw. Those items in themselves create an unsafe condition for several obvious reasons prime among which is that they encourage carelessness near the saw blade. I use ear protectors only when a screaming router is running because ear protectors can prevent me from hearing a warning from someone watching me, or the snap of an electrical arc from a frayed cord stricking metal. They can also lead me to momentarily moving of my eyes away from the saw blade to glance toward someone who may said something I couldn't understand when I have the ear protectors on.
My safty glasses consists of very strong regular eye glasses (glass) which will deflect any wood product, except a piece of iron or steel (broken carbide sawtooth) hurtling at me. The regular safety glass purchased in a hardware store will do no more.
The safety I practice does not encumber my hearing, my eyesight, my body with "leather motorcycle attire" or the machines I use with needless and questionable mechanical safety devices- each of which contributes little to nothing in the way of real safety, which is the minimizing of the potential for carelessness by myself.
I do not and will never encourage people to discard safety devices. (If I did not wear strong glasses - I would certainly wear eye protection in the shop). My safety is in the way of never wearing long sleeves or at least keeping long sleeves rolled up, not wearing rings and watches, or anything whatsoever around my neck, never wearing gloves to keep from picking up slivers - gloves decensitise the touch. Not playing radios, TV or HI FI each of which can and will distract attention from a moving cutter blade of any type. Last but certainly not least - never standing directly in the way of anything kicked back by a saw blade.
On the other hand I have had my share of near misses, not a single one which would have been prevented by the pelthora of available safety devices. Each of my accidents was the result of a moment of distraction or sheer stupidity on my part, none of which would have been prevented by a blade guard, a splitter or shield.
Point? Careless for whatever the reason is the primary cause of accidents in the work shop, not Norms failure to stress the use of mechanical safety devices which do not compensate for carelessness.
Your comment about Norm mentoring many newbies is true but, Why? Because most television stations can't sell these shows. I don't have cable or satellite further limiting my options. I'd love to watch a master like Mr. Bird but, don't see him on tv and the powers that be around he probably would't pick it up anyway; what a shame.
One can only learn so much from the magazines. Sometimes you have to see it done! Just wish I could afford to go to some of the classes. Indy isn't but a couple of hours and Conover in Oh is still within driving if I could afford a little more expense. The wife and kid like to eat, though. Maybe someday.
I think Norm is fine. He is probably terribly compromised becuase of the time and pace of the show. He probably is a great woodworker outside the show. My biggest problem is how he glosses over certain KEY parts of a project, like jigs. We all know it could take you all day to make a jig that represents only a few minutes of actual working time on a piece. I would also like to see Norms failures, and how he goes about fixing them. We all know about mistakes, and rarely do I throw the whole part out. I fix it, it becomes a design change etc. There, I've just added my 2 cents worth, and now I'm broke.
Norms projects are geared towards selling the sponsors products which is what pays his wages. Most projects he completes in two days or less which makes them good projects for the "Weekend Warrior". The "Weekend Warrior" is the person that will run down to a big box store and buy something that Norm used on his show so that he can build the project like Norm did. His neighbor will admire the collection of tools in his garage which might just be more important than any work he actually does.
I've never timed the actual air time for a two day project but I would guess it ends up being about 18-20 minutes total. In order to get enough information to make the project look doable, he's probably forced to take shortcuts and bypass the traditional methods. Sometimes he does scare me but lately there have been caveats popping up at the bottom of the screen. That's and improvement over the past.
My personal take is that he produces satisfactory results that would be substandard from a professional view but adequate for the non professional. He's not the non professional, the viewer is.
If nothing else, he's certainly figured out how to market himself and I'm pretty sure his bank account looks a lot better than mine.
David Marks is certainly a fine woodworker. If that is what your after then you can catch him, Saturday mornings on HGTV. Check the schedule, the times seem to change. He skips a lot of the basic stuff and tries to show the more difficult procedures. Unfortunately, time is also his enemy.
Steve - in Northern California
Edited 7/16/2002 2:57:08 PM ET by Steve Schefer
Edited 7/16/2002 3:00:39 PM ET by Steve Schefer
I'm with Mark - I think Norm and the producers of the show work within many time contraints. Think of all the other stuff Norm spends time on - TOH, personal appearances, etc. And lets face it - Norm is a carpenter by trade - not a truely devoted woodworker, he's in it to make money. As an alternative there a a couple of shows on DIY hosted by true woodworkers of different levels.
Well, as a relatively inexperienced woodworker, let me share my feelings about Norm.
6 or 7 years ago, I would have never thought of trying to make furniture, seeing it perhaps as too complex, or too difficult to learn. I didn't (and still don't) have any friends who do any woodworking, so there's no one close to ask. However, Norm got me INTERESTED in woodworking, and I built my first couple of pieces years ago that are still just as sound and beautiful. From there, I read as much as I can, do research on the web, and anything else it takes to make sure I'm doing something correctly and safely.
I can understand how a professional woodworker (i.e. one who makes his/her living building furniture) might be down on Norm, because there are certain things you learn through training, education, or years of experince that you can't get from Norm. I have a degree in economics, and hearing people talk about the economy gives me the same shivers the pros must get from Norm.
So maybe you got the impression that I'm not a pro- it's true. I may end up pounding a through tenon the wrong way through the grain, or splitting a panel, but at least I'm trying. I would love to take a year or two from my career and do nothing but learn woodworking, but for now I've at least got the Knots forum which is pretty darn cool.
Finally, I'd like to say a personal "thanks" to Norm Abram for giving me a marvelous creative oultet, and a second personal thanks to the pros here who, this week helped me figure out how to attach a marble top to a bedside stand.
We've all got our place.
Kevin
I agree with you, Norm Helped me learn some tricks when I started out woodworking about 12yrs ago, I know he gets his tools free from DELTA.. but HECK Its a TV show , someone has to pay for it. I still buy tools based on reviews from on the NEt or even on here , Norm Doesn't "plug" the brand he is using..
Also, anyone with some sense knows it takes alot longer to make the projects he makes...PBS only alots him a 1/2 hr to show it ...so why whine about it.
I am like all the others who got interested in woodworking because of Norm. In that respect he has probably done as much if not more to promote woodworking than anyone else has. For me , he took alot of the mystery out of making things. He presented in a way that when I watched I felt confident that I could do the same things. After a while, like most things, you grow, you get better and in this case perhaps, some get better than Norm is and in some cases they do not ,who cares. I like to sit back in the security of my own home and pick out the things he does differently than I do, maybe say that they are wrong or I can do better, make myself feel good. But then again , no matter how good we are ( or think we are) there is always someone better. I still watch him and still enjoy watching him .
My objection to Norm centers upon his abysmal lack of safety in his shop. He routinely uses a table saw without a guard or splitter. I rarely see him use hearing protection or a good dust mask when these items are clearly needed. For me, Roy Underhill has been a far superior teacher of woodworking.
the guards are off for visual instructions. warnings often tell viewers not to try it at home. he wears visual, inhalational and hearing protection(earplugs) all the time.
My favorite cut that I saw Norm perform was the free hand tablesaw cut. Now I ask you, how many of us can use our tablesaws like they were handtools?
The problem with Norm is the way he is represented, "featuring the craftsmenship of Norm Abrams". Words like craftmanship have become so overused that they have become diluted. I am a professional woodworker and an employer of wannabe woodworkers and I think that Norm has done us a disservice as I get these people coming in that have seen him on tv and don't understand how much work actually goes into a piece of furniture and why after three months their still spending all their time sanding and aren't cranking out pieces of furniture yet. As far as the argument of his use of so many power tools the issue is really what tool is appropriate to the task at hand. There are many times when a hand plane is faster than setting up to do the same job with a power tool and I've never seen Norm address this issue. I feel sorry for those of you whose first exposure to woodworking was Norm. There are so many woodworkers out there that are worlds beyond him. There are numerous places these days offering great workshops with world class woodworkers where one can learn more in one week than they are ever going to learn from Norm in a lifetime. If you don"t know what is wrong with Norm, you really need to get out more.
It's not that I don't get out, but I just wanted to know what others think of Norm. Sure he was really my first introduction to woodworking, other than in high school a loooong time ago, but I also understand that there is more to woodworking than what is covered in 20+ minutes at a time.
What he did was get my enthusiasm going and that made me increase my knowledge of woodworking with books, forums, etc.
Michael
Yes, he makes mistakes, and contradicts himself too often. But part of his shows problem is they are trying to cover too wide an audience, which holds them back- they are still showing ripping a board on a table saw to cover the beginners and trying to keep it interesting for the middle skilled people. And you can't do that in 25 min. They try to keep you from having to have seen an earlier show- which TV wants, a nice self contained 1/2 show, but PBS does series after all. He could go on to more stuff if he could just assume you know how to glue two pieces of wood together....
do you think norm may lurk here occasionally, i would bet he does. maybe even a contributor, whether we like it not norm is here to stay i believe he trims his woodworking prowess down for both shows. i still have learned more here than any place else. cheers bear
p.s. david marks has a more palatable approach for me
Edited 7/17/2002 8:04:59 PM ET by the bear
Was just thinking, with all the (Pro's) on this site...NOT me
Why bother watching him at all? makinsawdust
my humble advice, turn off the tv and get out to the shop.
sincerly, David J. Peschio
damn dave i wish i said that cheers bear
Maybe we should change the forum, split it in two, and call one "Fine handtool woodworking" and the other "Fine whatever tool will do the job woodworking" I'll jump in on the second.
I like Norm. He is fun to watch, I may not watch it to learn, but for entertainment. I love powertools. Some of us remember a time before power miter boxes, and when they came along I got one quick. In the early shows of TOH he had a 9" Rockwell that we ALL had back then. It was THE only choice.
He has turned a trade into a very lucrative career. And if someone tried to film me trimming a house, or building cabinets in my shop, I would be so nervous and shaky, I would probably cut all my fingers off and pee my pants.
I'm jelous and I wish I was him.
Good question Ed. Actually I think I watch it occasionally just to aggravate my wife as she tells me I'm not allowed to watch because I sit and yell at the tv too much.
Folks,
I was a student for a long time. I am a physician and spent 10 years in medical training learning four different specialties. I was always blessed with great teachers who took great efforts to teach me.
Some of those felows were great diagnosticians, others were very good at medical problem solving and others were master of physical diagnosis. Only a few were good at all of these things and exceptional at everything (by the way the best of them was a consumate woodworker).
If I only tried to learn from those who I thought were exceptionally good at everything, I certainly would have missed out on alot of good information.
One learns through humility, diligence and a little cynical selectivity.
There are lots of good woodworking programs, books and magazines.Learn from whom you will, be civil and remember that the haughty student is invariably turned away by every teacher.
Frank
Frank, I agree with your points ...reality is in Arizona is NO woodworking schools here locally ( I am not traveling around the country )...I have many tapes by some of the fine craftsman out the Kingshott, Klaus, Etc. So I know where you are coming from.
I just get sick of the same old song about Norm, He still knows more than the average DIY..makinsawdust
Very well phrased!!!!
I don't think the problem is Norm, he's just another guy on TV doing whatever it takes to get rich, because riches is more important than anything.
The problem is with people who look at free television and expect to find anything of truth. The purpose of TV is to convince us to buy things any they'll say and do whatever is necessary to accomplish that. Just look what Cable TV shows did to the stock market. They told mom and pop to stuff their 401K's with fraudulently pumped up stocks and ripped them off to the tune of 3 trillion and then blamed it on the polliticians.
Norm's little shills are tame in comparison. But look at it this way: without him and others to promote those tools, we wouldn't have the huge variety of choices available that we do. And as that other shill, Martha Stewart would say, "That's a good thing." With that in mind, I'll forgive him his inaccuracies and continue to snicker as I continue to watch him.
Dave of Florida
O.K. Normites, whats wrong with this picture?
View Image
Steve - in Northern California
I KEEP CLICKING ON THE PICTURE BUT THE BARTENDER WON'T POUR ME A DRINK.
makinsawdust
I do not see any olives for the martini glasses.
O.K. I'll give you all a hint... Trademarks....Steve - in Northern California
THINK PLAID?
Congratulations -- thats one, whats the other.Steve - in Northern California
He's too skinny?!
Thats close.. think about whats normally at his waste line.Steve - in Northern California
If anyone is interested the website - http://www.newyankee.com/ - has a shop notes and letters section. A lot of the questions we're asking here are answered there. I just scanned a few and found them to be honest and sincere. Steve - in Northern California
FYI - I just sent this note off to Norm. If I get a reply I'll post it.
Norm, you're not what got me into woodworking but you certainly played a hand in my new career decision. Over at the Taunton Press, Fine Wood Working forum "Knots" there have been several times when your name has come up.
Inevitably there are bashes as to the way you conduct your shows and to the methods that you use. Some of these are safety issues and others just woodworking skill issues.
Have no fear, I have always come to your defense. I would however, love to know why you would show, up and comming wood workers, techniques that are not all that good. Some things that come to mind are the overuse of the brad nailer and the biscuit jointer. I havent seen you free handing on the table saw lately so thats certainly an improvement (actually I think that was "This Old House"). By the way I understand why the power tools take precedence over hand tools. If it wasnt for them, you're projects would take forever to complete.
Thank you for taking time from your busy schedule to answer these questions.
Steve - in Northern California
By the way, this is what Norm thinks of this place:
Question: I'm looking for a Father's Day gift and thought a subscription to a woodworking magazine would be a good idea. I don't "see" one offered-Does New Yankee offer that??? If not, do you have a suggestion?? Thanks, Terri Keller Belton, Tx
Answer: We absolutely love This Old House magazing (but what else would you expect from us.... Seriously, "Fine Woodworking" is awfully good.
Edited 7/18/2002 5:35:00 PM ET by Steve Schefer
I kind of feel bad trashing Norm. The reason I feel bad is because, when I first started doing woodworking, I felt comfortable watching him. He relaxed me quite a bit and got me to feel confident trying things out. You have to admit, whatever his skill level, he has a gentlemanly kind of approach, and a very friendly face.
But I have definitely outgrown his techniques at this point. Which raises an interesting question. If someone like me were exposed, right from the start, to a better role model, would I still end up in the same place? Maybe someone more skilled than Norm would have scared me away? Watching Norm made me think, "Hey, woodworking is not that complicated." Of course, that was because Norm didn't really show the complicated details. The things I do now are far more advanced than what I was able to do three or four years ago. Today, I look at some of the things Norm does and I cringe. For example, he uses way too much glue. I don't like some of his ideas for MDF.
But on the other hand, maybe I wouldn't have been scared away at all. Maybe someone more skilled than Norm would have gotten me up to speed faster?
Well, we can't live two lives, so I'll never know the answer.
So, my feelings are mixed: I appreciate his attitude, but have a problen with his approaches.
PS: I also noticed a serious safety issue in one of his New Yankee Workshop books recently. He shows the "proper" way to cut on a table saw, and in the photo, he is standing directly behind the work piece, perfectly in line with the blade! I have a feeling this MUST be an editing mistake, since Norm could not possibly have done that on purpose.
Interesting comments about Norm. You should read his book. He really does make some mistakes.
I met Tom Silva a few years ago when they were out pushing the new magazine. What a great guy. He had a whole bunch of photos of the bloopers from this old house, that we never see.
Tom is just a down to earth as he is on the show.
I cannot disagree with any of the comments about Norm and his workmanship, but I like him and can relate to him and some of the stuff he does. It is apparent that a lot of people do.
I get tired of his clunky old tool belt. In his book he says he does as well. But he does as he is told, and that is to wear it. I cringe evey time I see his table saw without the guard, and I do not accept the statement that it is removed to make it easy to photograph. OSHA rules, even on a TV show, where is OSHA?
I envey his wide belt sander, and his 12" delta radial arm saw. My Unisaw is the same age as his, my dust collector still sets in the middle of the floor. I only have 6 routers and 5 sanders, no 6 sanders, it looks like he has three times that, at least the producer does. Norms real shop is in his new home per his book, wonder what it is like?
I like old pine boards, but can't find them, so I make due with the few new ones I can get locally.
I still like Norm and try not to mis his show, even the repeats.
Curt
You did start a storm of conversation. I am a Norm fan -- warts and all. I took a course from Frank Klausz several years ago and he was down on Norm, but Frank was not bashful in promoting his videos and cabinet shop. Norm has done a world of good for woodworking and he continues to promote the craft. I say keep up the good work!! I wish I had a shop like Norm's or David Marks'.
Nothing better than the sweet, sweet sound of sour grapes being served icy cold.
Bottom line - it is OK to hate Norm, more power to you. Complain that Norm teaches to a Kindergarten through High School of woodworking skills (this is a valid point, he doesn't try to do a master's class), and of course you are far, far beyond that level... Great! To think you are better than Norm is just stupid. Say it a different way, you can't do what Norm has done... he has worked very, very hard for many years; he took a flyer and hooked up with Bob Villa many years ago to do a nothing local show that is now the most watched show on PBS; he has a methodology for success and he has his ego in check.
We don't really know, but I'm pretty sure that the guy can make "fine furniture" if he wanted to. Making high quality fine furniture isn't very hard on the scale of human achevement, it is just very time consuming. It would be much harder to run a money making furniture factory for example.
Jealousy is such a waste of time.
Well said Peter!
I have been watching Norm semi-faithfully for more years than I care to count. I remember when his lines were pretty much "yep" and "nope" and Bob Villa would go on for 5 minutes explaining what Norm meant. But as time went by, Norm seemed to gain courage and started explaning himself, and did it well. Suddenly he had his own show.
While I have said that Norm would use an electric pencil if he could find one, I think he he is quite capable of turning out fine by hand. The problem, as I see it, is that a show where Norm turns out one or two pieces a season would probably not make it. We are in too much of a rush and do not have the patience. Not even sure if I would stick with it, and I consider myself a patient man.
I have watched all the tv woodworkers mentioned in this thread and enjoyed them all. My philosophy is that there are may ways to accomplish most any thing and as long as you reach the goal, your method is valid.
I particlarly enjoyed Roy Underhill, mainly because he was such a clutse(sp? Couldn't find this word in my 1859 page dictionary. Guess I have dictionary envy). I often thought that it was a good thing he didn't use machinery, because he wouldn't have any fingers left! LOL
Gotta go Norm's coming on on H>V!
Another Peter
I know clutse! I am one, just do not know how to spell it ethier. And I even have two computer based spell/definetion programs. Like Roy, I too sport bandaids on fingers quite well. Right now I only have one finger taped up, but the day is young! All of the before mentioned TV woodworkers are my hero's, they make a living at what I enjoy doing.
God bless, B.
K-L-U-T-Z
Be seeing you...
Thank you for the correct spelling of Klutz. The way you spelled it out with the hyphins, does this mean that there is a support group that I may join? LOL.
h-y-p-h-e-n-s
I was just wondering if anyone has actually been to Norm's house and seen him working on a piece for himself that will never be done into a show? And I am not talking about the NYW which I belive is actually on Russal Morash's (the producer) proerty. I bet the two places are quite different. Norm is making a tv show. that is all. a tv show. I recently watched the behind the scenes of TOH show on HGTV. And there is one scene in particular where Morash clearly tells Norm to change his opinion on some pre-fab moulding for the sake of the show. How often does this happen on the NYW? There was a comment made awhile back that most of the readers here would prefer a show along the lines of the Tage Frid Woodshop, but that obviously it would not have the audience that the present NYW has. I bet there would be many who would still complain about some of his techniques and styles, as well. If you agree that he is not worthy of receiving his hall fo fame recognition, becasue there is so much behind the scenes involvment form writers, producers, sponsers, etc. then why would you not take that into account as you gauge his skill level. How much of Norm's real talent, and skill is alowed onto the show. or for that matter is particular area of interest in woodworking, or his stlye preference.
If Porter Cable came to me and said make a 25min. show, doing a small semi-basic wood working piece, make it look easy, and we will give you this trailer load of tools and cash, which one of you would say no thanks... that would be stuipid. I would quickly respond where do I sign? If it is something he enjoys and it pays his bills so what? If his show introduced you to woodworking, or you once met Sam Maloof who cares? isn't what really counts what you do with your talents and skills, and how you improve them? and ultimatley what makes your boat float?
I really could care less about if Norm is a stud pusher, or if he uses his ponka ponka too much, I do think that everyone should chill just a little, and give the guy a break... I wonder if we took 2 days out of your life, edited it down to 25 min. with 15 other people's opinions on which parts to show, what reflection that would leave of you, and how favorably your image would turn out..
I like the show.. better than watching Barney with the kids
I couldn't agree more. I believe if Norm was left on his own to do whatever he wanted without the producers input, we would be seeing better and more interesting items being built. But the producers, sponsers and whoever else are running the show. Norm has been in the carpenter/cabinet maker trades many many years. Also, Norm is just a nice honest guy.
Peter,
I could not have said it better myself !!makinsawdust
I been watching Norm for many years, maybe he's not the greatest woodworker of all times, but he inspired me and for that I'm grateful. I also met Norm and he was very down to earth. Granted he uses a lot of power tools, who doesn't? I also watch Mark and he also does a great shop, and he uses some very expensive tools like the Multi Router which costs around $2500.00. If our for farthers had these tools I'll bet they would use them too.
I did read all the replies in this thread, and I guess I'm the only one in here that likes to watch NYW to get ideas for projects, maybe learn a short-cut, or to catch something that I haven't tried before. I should go on to say that I spend time with other woodworkers to share methodology, brag, or just to shoot the bull.
To say that Norm is money crazy, a buffoon, or whatever is each person's opinion. I'll continue to watch for the above-mentioned reasons.
Len (Len's Custom Woodworking)
Len, probably one of the best examples of comparisons concerning Norm happened just this weekend on HGTV. I missed the first NYW and started with Dave Marks. Dave built a beautiful walnut and purple heart Blanket Chest with a book matched raised panel top. Not all that complicated but certainly a showpiece.
Immediately following on the second NYW, Norm built a toy chest. The construction and design were not all that different but it was certainly geared towards a different group of people.
The average person would take on the challenge of building the toy chest first because they could probably get it done in a weekend or two. Later, after the toy chest was done they might attempt the Blanket Chest.
Pretty much everything you said and that I said in this post became graphically apparent with these two back to back shows.Steve - in Northern California
You're not alone. I also like the show. I don't watch it all the time, but that's because I hardly ever watch any kind of TV show.
Of course, Norm is not doing "top-level" woodworking -- at least not on the TV show. He's not going to be using Felders and Altendorfs on his show. But that's the point, isn't it? He's there to get you involved, interested, and excited about possibilities. He's attracting the AVERAGE hobbyist, not the professional. That's what we call a niche.
Does Norm do marketing on the show? Well, no more than Masterpiece Theater does when they put in a plug for Exxon, or National Public Radio when they do a spot for General Electric. I recently went to classic music concert at University of Massachusetts, and the program had two pages of corporate sponsors (everything from Coca-Cola to local businesses). The point here is that every non-profit enterprise has to bow to marketing in order to deliver on its purpose. That, on it's face, does not harm the value of the product. Bach and Beethoven both wrote some of their best music while employed by rich benefactors, and the music had to please those benefactors. Does that mean that Bach's Brandenburg Concertos, or Beethoven's Rassumovski Quartets are no good? From my experience, Norm has never told us to use a machine that is simply wrong for the job just because it's made by a sponsor company.
If you're a professional woodworker, well, of course you're beyond the New Yankee Workshop level. So, if you don't like it, then don't watch the show. Better yet, if you think you're so much better, see if you can start your own show. I think you'll find that the people who have wide appeal have other skills beyond technical ones.
For me, the show delivers, honestly, what it states as its purpose -- no more and no less.
no, he doesn't use an altendorf, but i don't see why he couldn't start. after all, he puts everything through a wide belt sander. now how many hobbiests out there have one??? i think that is overkill for the crappy projects that norms making on his show. because of things like that i don't like the show. what's next, norm coming out with a new CNC router. he'd probably say something like "i'll just take these sheets of plywood over to my CNC router and in a few minutes our new kitchen will be done" having all those routers is one thing, but i think if norm wants to cater to beginers he should have the kind of "ultimate shop" that you could get from a big box store. i think it's pretty stupid to show him making something like a birdhouse with a unisaw. I really hope that David Marks takes over norms time slot. while his projects may not be the most difficult, his show is much more enjoyable then the NYW IMO.
C'mon! We need someone to make bird houses on a Unisaw! Why, everytime he nails something together, sales of nails go up across the country. In these hard times we need that!
Gees, and that tool belt that he wears. Like, we can't tell that it's Norm without the belt. It's one thing to walk around with a belt on a job site where you don't want to walk back to the truck 50 times an hour. But in your own work shop?! Who the heck can do any kind of work with that stupid thing hanging off your waist?
Rich
Yea, if I hung around the shop wearing a tool belt like that I would hang up on my vise handles and more!makinsawdust
I think alot of money is involved. Look at all the glossy catalogues and all this hype that you have to have all this mechanization to do cabinet work- even if you are a hobbyist.
There was an article several years ago in FWW about this fellow who was overseas in asia. He visited these incredible woodworkers who could make beautiful pieces with old junk handplanes, homemade chisels and bowsaws.
Can you imagine a show in the US that shows you how to make your own tools out of salvedged rubbish? Alot of this is driven by money for good or for ill.
Yes money does have a play on his show, I look at it this way, My little one bay shop with most of the basic machines, and a nice collection of handplanes. Is STILL worth about Half what i got when I sold my Harley 4yrs ago..AND I get more enjoyment from it..:o)makinsawdust
The answer to your question is The Woodwright's Shop.
Roband,
Well, I think Roy goes a bit far too. I don't see myself splitting boards out of stumps to make lumber.
Roy also has alot of very expensie tools. I like him though as he doesn't take himself too seriously.
Frank
If I could afford a belt like Norm wears....I would have one. And so would you!!!!
*sigh*
Well, a guy can always dream! Maybe for Christmas?
I must have missed the memo that states that you can't build birdhouses with a Unisaw, only fine furniture. Hell, if I had a Unisaw I would build them too...along with many other things, such as Norm does. Norm is in the business of showing people how to make things. Sure he may be geared toward the hobbiest but that's how most people get started. He's also in the business and gets tool people to give him the nicest stuff so he can help sell it for them to those who want the "neatest" stuff. I don't hear anyone ripping David Marks for using a 12" jointer to flatten a board, or having a monster router table, or a horizontal router for mortises, etc.. So he makes "finer" pieces. I like the show but I find his delivery very hesitant and jerky. Norm's delivery is very casual and comfortable. I watch both and try to learn from both.
My 2¢...you're mileage may vary.
Michael
Norm,
How do I love thee? Let me count the ways:
Where's my tool pouch???
Where's my brad gun???
Where's my finish nailer???
Expansion and contraction......what's that???
Where's my satin poly and my foam brush???
Whaddya mean, I have to design it myself???
Where's my claw hammer???
Okay, so I'm in the mood to be a WA on this topic. Suffice it to say that Norm's lucky he doesn't have to make his living building high-end furniture for demanding clients as he'd never be able to support his apparent appetite. My biggest beef with Norm and the producers of the show is that they're encouraging viewers to develop, use,diseminate,beleive in and promote some very poor furniture constructing and finishing practices........and he's got quite a following. I'm sure glad that it's not a show about practicing medicine.
That's kind of the idea -- it's NOT medicine. It's woodworking, which is a hobby (in other words, it's supposed to be FUN). Medicine is NOT a hobby -- it's life and death.
I'm not a huge fan of Norm, and like I've said before, I don't even watch his show very much any more. I've developed beyond a lot of what he does on the show. However, I just can't understand the level of criticism against him.
What bothers me is that so many professional woodworkers think they would do so much better in his position. What do you think, if you had a show you'd be doing master-level projects all the time, never make a mistake, and never do anything that other people disagreed with? And before you comment on someone else's stomach, take a look at your own! By the way, commenting on Norm's stomach all but proves that you have a PERSONAL not a PROFESSIONAL issue here.
Would you rather there was no woodworking show on PBS? Do you think you have a solution to doing a better show? If so, propose your ideas (diet and all) to the producers at PBS, and see if they bite.
Edited 7/25/2002 9:33:55 AM ET by MattSchenker
Edited 7/25/2002 9:34:59 AM ET by MattSchenker
Amen & Hallelujah.....
When I win the Power Ball Lottery or any Lottery....then I will buy a work belt like Norm wears.
Matt, well said!.... I might have started the stomach thing by accident. I was referring to the lack of the trademark set of bags he usually wears and the lack of the plaid shirt in the picture that I found on his site. It was supposed to be a Norm trivia thing.
I watched him this morning,, yawn,, he's on at 4:30am here. He built a shaker basin stand and did an acceptable job. No, it was nothing that would impress an art buyer but then that was never the idea of the Shakers anyway. Yep, the foam brush and satin poly were there along with a good dose of biscuts but he also did some nice angled dovetails with 45deg miters on the top tails. He did screw up with the sides of the angled top and then fixed it with a rasp... The producer probably wouldn't give him the time to fix it correctly.Steve - in Northern California
A part of your note made me think why people put down the use of biscuits? Are they a poor alternative to dowels? Are they just too "new" and therefore fodder for those who "do things the old way?" I feel that biscuits are the newest tool in ones arsenal. Not a replacement, but just another tool.
Kind of reminds me when I taught myself graphic design (my current profession) and the computer was my main tool. I got tons of "real" designers look down on me because I was doing my designing, sketching, etc. on the computer. They thought I was cheating. I thought of it as another tool for me to use. Now some years later those same "real" designers are using the computer and couldn't do their job effectively without it.
I kinda think this might be the same with biscuits. It's just new and that bothers some.
My 2¢.
Michael
Hmm Matt, interesting. My hobby is rugby. I try to do the furnituremaking thing for a living during the week. Just like any other job, it's not all fun and frolicking, and I really try to avoid going to the workshop at nights and the weekends--- and also the afternoons during the working week from May to September down here in Houston-- it's much too hot to work really. At times off I prefer to read a book, watch TV, actually play a little very slow old man rugby, or go for a beer or six at the bar and watch a game or three with all the other rugby minded types, ha, ha. As to the subject of the topic,... no comment. Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture
Sgian,
Glad to see you back. Check out my bit of good luck at "A fine Old Craftsman" under tools.
Sorry to hijack the thread.
Frank
P.S. Actually, I am not sorry at all.
I haven't been away Frank. The subject of the thread is only slightly interesting to me as I've never paid any serious attention to the gentleman under discussion, and I don't recall how many years ago it was that I last saw even a part of the woodworking show he hosts. The comment in this thread that caught my eye as interesting was when Scott seemed to say-- which i may have misinterpreted of course-- that furnituremaking/woodworking is, here, collectively, a hobby. That might be the case for many visitors and contributors, but not all. As I pointed out, I choose hobbies to get me away from wood-whacking. Slainte, RJ. RJFurniture
I still have a brand new Elu Biscuit joiner in the case(Norm's first model) I was thinking the grandkids could go to college on it, if they could get the right price out of it on e-bay...
RJ,
It was Matt who said that "woodworking is a hobby, that it's supposed to be fun. So lighten up on Norm" . . . or something to that effect
That caught my attention, too. I have no problem with the notion that a hobby ought to be fun. And if Norm is only doing the job he's doing as a hobby, why then heck, let the ol' boy have fun. Might as well use peanut butter for glue! (oh, but then the dog might chew on it and inadvertantly give us a "distressed" finish. Or a distressing finish.
But why does the hobby aspect permit shoddy work? AND woodworking is not a hobby to everyone. And why is it "fun" to do things poorly. Why isn't it "fun" to take pride in doing things. Why is it "fun" to promote "Woodworking for Dummies?" Why is good work not fun?
What's wrong with showing correct methods, craftsmanship, sensitivity to the material, intelligent use of tools (read safe), and a general level of dignity and inate inteligence which is just dumbed down on the show? That's not fun?
Read this month's issue of "Woodworking" magazine There's an article by a highschool wood shop teacher who has inspired an entire town in his role. There are many pictures of work by high school boys and girls that is exemplary in it's scope and quality. Most appears professional level. He encouraged them to reach beyond their perceived abilities. He has 150 applicants yearly, for 75 places. Students beg to work till late into the night. They stay in the course for 4 years. Their families get involved. Younger siblings of graduating students join the class. Their pride is visible. The entire program is the antithesis of the Norm Show approach.
Rich
Yes, Rich. It was indeed Matt. My error. In defence of hobbiest's, many do very fine work. They have the time, the will, the skill, no customer deadlines to concern themselves with, and they have an alternative income to support their pastime. Many are bodgers too. There again, one can find examples of fine craftsmanship and of the 'bodger extraordinaire' amongst the professionals, from both contemporary examples and from old pieces. I've fixed up quite a few examples of bodged Victoriana-- tarted it up a bit and made it look passable for a few more years by doing a bit of bodging and fixing myself. At its lowest level-- for the working furnituremaker and the weekend hack, that is-- woodworking is pretty undemanding. Just about any fool with a piece of ply, a saw, a hammer, a lick of glue, a few nails, a brush and a can of varnish can fashion up a box-- it's where the 'fool' goes from there that seems to matter. If Norm has inspired some people to work wood, and perhaps aim for even better, that seems fine by me.
By the way, I was always crap at rugby, and now I'm old and even crappier, and you no longer need a slo-mo (non)action replay to see all my faults as a player ingraphic detail-- in fact if you've got any sense, you don't want to see a replay at all because it takes too long. I had no ambition to be good. I do enjoy the camaraderie, the craic, the boozy weekends, etc., etc.. There's room for all sorts in rugby, from the incompetent buffoon (me) to top class athletes playing for their country at international level. I think there's room for a similar range of us wood-whackers too. Slainte, RJ. RJFurniture
Sgian,
Now this discussion has turned into something more substantial -- a quest to understand who we are as woodworkers...
I have a lot of respect for your opinion and your skills (and your sense of humor). What I said was that Norm is aiming at the hobbiest -- that's his niche. I didn't mean to suggest that woodworking is only for hobbiests. Of course not. Believe me, I am very aware that professional woodworkers are an entirely different type of person than myself, and I am very aware of the hard work and dedication skilled woodworkers apply to their craft. I am saying all this with as much seriousness as I can muster. Well, I gained that respect for professional woodworkers because I first ventured into woodworking as a hobbiest, learned a lot, then eventually reached a point where I was good enough to understand the value of well-crafted furniture, which led me to realize how much more there is to learn, which led me to realize how amazing it is when someone out there really did learn so much more. I went to a woodworking show with my wife recently, and it made me very proud to point out to her how beatiful the work of a particular artist was. She asked if I could do the same kind of work one day, and it didn't even bother me to say that that other woodworker is operating on a completely different level. Again, I only gained this kind of respect and understanding because I ventured out as a hobbiest. Shows like New Yankee Workshop helped me make those first steps that got me where I am now.
You have to analyze something for what it intends to be. Norm intends to produce a show for people who are at a very basic level. Hopefully, by seeing things done at a basic level, you will be inspired to do more, on your own. I have indeed moved beyond the level of NYW, and today I hardly watch the show, and even when I do I don't get much out of it. But I still say that NYW helped me a few years ago to build a cuiriosity about woodworking. From there, I got interested in reading publications like Fine Woodworking and a great British woodworking magazine, and I've built a library of "classic" woodworking books that I study all the time.
If you are a professional, of course you're not going to get a lot out of Norm's show. It's not meant for you. As a matter of fact, if you're a professional woodworker, I don't know why you're lurking around on NYW, unless you are just searching for something to be critical about.
I am a professional writer. You want to feel nervous about your next job, try my profession for a while! There are vast numbers of writers groups, people who call themselves "poets" who have never read a word of poetry, hack writers who make the best-seller list, then there's "Oprah's list" of best books, and on and on -- things to make a professional writer and true language lover cringe. This is relevant to the discussion at hand. I would not read a book just because Oprah suggested it. However, nor would I say that she is doing a disservice to literature. She is, hopefully, providing a sense of curiosity about the reading/writing world. That's about all I would expect Norm to do.
Edited 7/26/2002 9:29:33 AM ET by Matt Schenker
Edited 7/26/2002 9:31:08 AM ET by Matt Schenker
Good morning Matt,
I read your message with interest and I agree with you that Norm is for us 'weekend warriors'. What I don't agree with is that the mistakes made by Norm, as mentioned by a few other contributors to this thread, seem to be acceptable. In fact the show should be 'proof read' before transmission to ensure that these mistakes are edited out. It matters not what level one is aiming for - if you are going to do it, do it right or don't bother because other people will copy those errors.
I personally have not seen these errors as I rarely watch his show anymore. I would rather be 'doing' than 'watching'.
I must also mention that without the NYW to stimulate my interest, I would not have started making furniture.
I agree completely with Matt. I could not have said it better myself, but, will try anyway.
The true artisans of any craft will never be invited to teach their rare skills weekly on a 30 minute television show. Very few people would watch. They are not relatable to the general audience. Norm's show is aimed at the hobbyist. Period. If you feel your skills are well beyond his, and are agonizing over the content of his programs, there is relief. It's called a remote control. Among its features are a channel selector, and better yet, a power switch. Don't subject yourself to this; it's not healthy. Turn off the TV and visit with the family.
In regard to BRIGGO's comment, "If you are going to do it, do it right or don't bother...": That's a precarious philosophy. Most of us never do everything right. In fact, the true line between what is the correct method and what is not is sometimes distinct only in the mind of the critic. To extend this philosophy a bit, 50% or more of the posts in this thread should never have been posted since they are grammatically incorrect or have misspellings. I you are going to do it, do it right......, remember? Surely you don't speak in front of your children using this flawed sentence construction, etc. Apologies for the sarcasm, but, you get the point.
Norm held my interest in woodworking during a time when I couldn't afford to buy glue, let alone tools or lumber. I enjoyed woodworking vicariously, watching someone I could relate to. He was accessible. I saw safety lapses, too. So what. I'm bright enough to figure out safety on my own. If I get hurt, it's my fault, not Norm's. Now that I am able to put money into my interest in woodworking, I'm expanding my knowledge beyond what I can pick up from any TV show and learning to appreciate the finer details of high quality woodworking. I am also gaining more respect for those of you who have acheived that higher level of accomplishment. I shake my head in amazement every time I open a new issue of FWW. I also experience some degree of disappointment knowing that I will likely never acheive that level of ability, but, it doesn't matter. I don't have to make my living working wood and, most importantly, I'm having fun.
So, ease up on NYW and Norm. I suspect he's capable of many things never seen on TV. And so what if he's not. If you're bothered by his show. Turn it off, and take comfort that there are many hobbyists having a good time and wishing they were as skilled as you.
You need to watch your spelling more carefully Philko, ha, ha. Slainte, RJ. RJFurniture
Funny, just seconds after I hit the post button, I thought to myself, someone's going to find a spelling or grammatical error and make a comment about it. Sorry you missed the point. The point is: It doesn't matter. I make mistakes every day I work in my shop. I learn from them and I have a good time. Hobbyists have that luxury. It doesn't mean that I'm not always trying to do better. As far as I know, Norm never claimed to be trying to help people do museum quality work.
If you find spelling errors, no need to let me know. It doesn't matter.
My wee comment was meant as a wee joke, hence the ha, ha at the end, Philko. I make plenty of spelling mistakes too, especially in places like this where I don't run a spell check, and speed to me is of the essence. Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture
My bad. Thanks for the reply.
O.K. This is enough...ROFLOL :-)) This thread caused me to get up at 3:30 am to watch the first HGTV Norm, then David Marks, then Norm again. Jeeze the coffee was stale by 8:30 and I had to make a new pot. All I did during all of the shows was look for mistakes and "Weekend Warrior" methods of work.
Oddly enough, there was a weird sort of balance between the two this week. I doubt that its David slipping or Norm improving. My bet is that they are both under the pressures of the producers. My current vote is to let Dave and Norm write their own scripts next season and see what happens.
Steve - in Northern California
Edited 7/27/2002 12:59:09 PM ET by Steve Schefer
I was watching here on the right coast at 6:30...coffee was all gone by 8:30. I thought Norm did a wonderful job cutting the cheeks of the 6' long board for the m&t joint....on a table saw..holding the board straight up ! I like Norm and I did feel like building a trundel bed for my daughter after the show.
David Marks is great also..and his night table was nice..especially the finish..good stuff.
I havent been in watching him lately Ive been to busy in MY shop using MY table saw and glueing up panels using MY clamps after biscuiting them using MY biscuit jointer and then routing the raised panels useing MY table mounted router..
Ever notice how he says everything is My this and MY that when its all been loaned to him by tool manufacturers.... Norm if ya read this PLEASE PLEASE knock the MY out ok.... Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Three thoughts -
First - just read a book review in Business Week about American Snobs. Let's be sure that we are complaining about something real and not just being a snob.
Second - What I notice is "professional custom furniture makers" seem to be generating a weird kind of sales pitch in this thread. Since everything Norm makes on the NYW is nicer than every piece of furniture in my house (with a couple exceptions of my own fine furniture efforts :)), does that mean we should only buy furniture that costs over $5K and is lovingly handmade by a independent craftsperson? Is no store bought furniture good enough for our houses? I like the quality of Norm's furniture, it is not as nice as 2 or 3 of my pieces which I have lovingly handmade, it isn't as nice as Sam Maloof's stuff either.
Third - I have to laugh about people complaining about the equipment in the NYW. There just isn't that much money in there. For example, one dinner table, 6 chairs and one nice cabinet, handmade to the better than Norm quality, would cost more than all of the NYW equipment. It is less than a Porsche, an SUV, a good ski boat. You guys don't go into your rich clients and tell them they are stupid because they gave you so much money do you?
Have a nice day and don't forget to keep you nose in the air and pinkies high on your tea cup. :)
My favorite Norm moments:
When he assembles his "reproduction" of a fine antique with power driven drywall screws.
Hearing him extol the virtues of MDO, "The highway department uses it for exit signs ! !"
Watching, teeth on edge, while he bumps and grinds his way to a profile using his lathe duplicator attachment.
And, of course, when he dons smock and slaps on yet another Danish Oil finish.
Amen.......
This place is the same as Fine Homebuilding. I brawl with some of the snobs over there from time to time also. Vinyl siding, Pergo floors...blah, blah, blah. Some of the guys screaming about the best are also the ones driving 20 year old rusted buckets of crap and bragging. Seems to me they should be driving Ferraris and Rolls Royce if they were true to their philosophy.
I build homes, not temples. I build furniture, and kitchen cabinets, not alters to the furniture gods. I use biscuits, glue, screws, and wood putty when needed. I don't believe I will be judged poorly on it in the end..................... Probably be something like this ......." oh yeah, my son was a carpenter, he goofed off alot and did alright, that cross thing was a drag, but he got over it, he's around here somewhere, probably down at the pub, you and he should get along fine"
I happened to catch a rerun of TOH this afternoon in which Norm, himself, certainly could have been interpreted as being that to which you’re referring. The client/homeowner was questioning him about the possibility and cost of relocating a built-in china cabinet from the ground floor to the second floor because that’s where he’ll be residing. The first floor will be used as rental unit. Norm didn’t lose any time criticizing the under-built “flimsiness” of the shelves, the “not quite right” hardware that had been used on the piece, the fact that the drawers are “only nailed together, rather than dovetailed”, and the fact that the carcass was only nailed together, as well. After his critique, the final decision was that Norm would use the leaded glass doors only, for which he would then build a “higher quality” cabinet to be installed on the second floor, with “more appropriate hardware”, better construction, and he would “improve” on the style and appearance. After all, Norm pointed out, this would be a better expenditure of money even though it “will cost plenty” to do. And he suggested that the unit that is left behind without the glass doors would be “good enough for renters”.
Seems to me that Norm was about the business of criticizing the work of another and boasting that he could build a piece that is “better”. And……..the original builders of said piece weren’t present either, to defend themselves or explain why it had been constructed in that fashion in the first place. Perhaps it was because the original homeowner(s) simply couldn’t afford “the best” or didn’t care to invest the money to get that better quality. Should we now believe that Norm is some sort of elitist worthy of our distain? Does this make him another “American snob”? I hardly think so. He was simply assessing the situation, as he saw it. His pinkie was no higher on the teacup than any of us out here. Just like Norm, we’re calling it as we see it. I'll bet that's what we all do......all the time.
Yep, you have it! Almost every piece of furniture ever made is worse than what Norm builds on NYW. It is all crap and he calls it crap and so would we. I have made better furniture than Norm has made on NYW and so have you. There is better furniture made than Norm makes on NYW all over this great world of ours. I think we agree!
Then there is a problem... some people think that what is shown on TV is real and somehow they can understand what a TV personality thinks because of what happens in front of the camera. Next thing you know this group of posters will be taking a contract out on Erica from All My Children or falling in love with someone from Friends. Basically, this anti-Norm stuff is about snobbery and jealousy. We simply don't know what he thinks or knows. We do know he has published 10 or 15 books and none of us ever will, but who cares if he can teach?
At any time you can be on the road to success and fame. It would just take some hard work and some good luck. If you sit and complain to us it will never happen, so get busy. :) That is correct, I know this path and it is hard and rewarding, succeed or fail it is fun if you try.
I got to go on vacation now, so you guys are on your own to debunk all this stuff while I'm gone. Have fun.
Very nicely said Peter, have a nice vacation. Hope you run into Norm.Steve - in Northern California
Quite evidently, Peter, you missed my two previous postings concerning Norm.
There are 108 posts in this thread. I don't know or care what you wrote earlier, I will not review it. This is my 4th post of the 109 that will be here after I'm done. I have written basically the same thing each of the first three.
I wrote we agreed that the pieces represented on NYW are pretty darn good. For example, I would put them in my house. I wrote that some posters in this thread seem to think that TV is real and it isn't (we agree about this as well?).
If your memory is good enough to remember all the posts of this thread in detail I suggest a career in Computers. It is almost like woodworking, but there is real money to be made there. It is a lot less fun and even less fun to do well. :)
Off to the beach. See you guys in 3 weeks. - Peter G
Here, Here!
Goldhiler hit it on the head. If you don't like Norm, go down in your shop and do better.
If you like Norm- bully for you.
Personally, I don't think he is such a bad guy,even if I wouldn't do things the way he does.
Make sawdust and stop kvetching.
Frank
I don't attempt to watch the New Yankee Workshop Matt, but once in a blue moon I see a bit of an episode. As far as my philosophy or purpose as a woodworker, I don't really have one. I design and make furniture for paying clients-- hopefully. It's just my job. I could be a train driver, or a computer technician, or whatever, but I'm not, so there's not very much to think about from my perspective. Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture
Ive been thinking about this Norm bashing thing, i think its because hes marketed as a "Master Carpenter". The title kinda reeks of a flame fest about him...... Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
I think Norm may qualify as a master carpenter. He certainly is no master cabinetmaker, master joiner, or master woodworker but he does seem to know his carpentry.
You stated - "My biggest beef with Norm and the producers of the show is that they're encouraging viewers to develop, use,diseminate,beleive in and promote some very poor furniture constructing and finishing practices......."
Regret that I must disagree....Norm has his first time with myself - "to develop, use,diseminate,believe in and promote some very poor furniture constructing and finishing practices.......".
I really can't lay my wood working deficiencies at Norm's door.....they are all of my own creation & carelessness. The techniques I use, discard or alter are based on decisions I make, not Norm. I, and I suspect nearly everyone on this forum when it comes to woodworking create their own tecniques based on their own judgments of what works for them. Frankly, I doubt that there are as many wood working sheep following the black sheep leader as you imagine. And if I be wrong, what of it...Norm's techiques are as good as any one elses.
Tell me, please, and explain in detail, not merely generalities, exactly what you believe determines the level of what you refer to as - "some very poor furniture constructing and finishing practices...." How would you make any given product produced by Norm to be better than the finished product he displays.
Wow!!!! I’m somewhat flabbergasted by the ferocity of perceived need for defense of Norm and his show. I guess my WA sarcastic critique has stepped on some extremely tender toes. Could it be that Norm has more relatives than I ever conceived possible? Why, you’d think that I had just thrown a rotten egg at the Pope, if you get my drift. Obviously, some of you, at least on this particular subject, have no sense of humor. It would serve you well to find one, even if only on a rental basis. (Also intended as humor)
Now, allow me to address some of your responses.
I’m 51 years old, have been making my living building furniture since the age of 24, and have had numerous articles published in well-known woodworking magazines and journals over the years.
It started out as a hobby when I was 17, but is no longer a hobby, but rather is how I have helped provide food, shelter, and clothing for my family for many years. Those of you who hobby at this may not have experienced the angst associated with a call from a client whose piece has “misbehaved”. I have always stood behind my work and consequently have been bound to correct the problem/problems at no expense to the client. Sometimes, corrections could not be made. This then entailed building them a completely new piece without the inherent engineering flaws of the original attempt. The vast majority of my works over the years have been high-end one-off pieces. Understanding proper engineering and construction of these pieces is critical, not only to me, but also to my clients who’ve put their hard earned money on the table for my wares. And on that note, it is serious business and some days it is no fun, at all. In a situation such as this, one is highly motivated to sort out the myths from the reality. Despite some of my novice attempts/desires to alter the laws of physics to comply with my wishes, they have never yielded. They are no more likely to yield for Norm or anyone else.
Not only is it how I’ve made my living, but I realize the importance of passing on valid information to others, rather than popularly accepted notions and dis-information, no matter the source. I doubt that I am alone when I say that to me, quality matters. Unfortunately, in my early years when I thought I was “all that”, and having an ego that needed constant stroking, I, with great conviction, passed on some poor advice and practices because I truly believed or wanted the information to be true. Time and physics taught me otherwise. Attitude is no substitute for knowledge and its’ application. Fortunately, none of these false notions or practices were disseminated to a large audience of eager ears and eyes via mass media, i.e., none of them made it into any of the published articles as the mistaken notions preceded publication by years. For this, I am thankful.
. Everyone and anyone is free to read my posts or not, take the advice/suggestion or not. I offer it not because I’m looking for an adoring public or a substantial amount of money, but rather to be helpful to those who are interested in learning this craft whether it be for the purposes of income or self-satisfaction. And, yes, I realize that there can be more than one legitimate approach to a desired result. I offer those that are time-proven to me and that I am familiar with. I, unlike the producers of Norm’s show, have no vested interest in making something look easier than it is or glossing over critical parts of construction or engineering for want of footage time.
I have not bothered to make a mental catalog of the obvious errors on Norm’s show, as I’ve reserved the use of my brain for more important enterprises, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t see them when they occur. And no, I don’t watch his show with weekly regularity. I see it occasionally on Sunday afternoons on PBS, if I happen to be in front of the set when it comes on. This is usually during the winter months when the weather here makes outdoor activities less inviting than watching TV.
Let me make one thing perfectly clear………. I don’t know Norm personally, nor do I dislike him personally. I’d gladly invite him over for barbeque and beer. We might become the best of friends and he could probably teach me a few things about carpentry that I don’t know, but should. Norm does what Norm does, knows what he knows, and doesn’t know what he doesn’t know. The same holds true for all of us. There are plenty of people out there that can educate me about things that I don’t know, but their efforts to help me will be futile if I am not receptive. And I’m sure that he’s just as valuable and as nice of a person as any of the rest of us. And just like the rest of us, even friends will take shots at him, for the sake of humor, that are not intended to be declarations of war or dislike.
Even Norm knows that he’s promoted poor practices in the past and has made mention of them on his show. For instance, he eventually learned about the need to let a panel float inside of a frame rather than gluing it fast as he did years ago, and I managed to see the show where this previous mistake was admitted. Perhaps some of you will now want to write to Norm and tell him to stop criticizing himself and his shop practices, no matter what.
I personally have met several people over the years who had admittedly followed his lead on this matter, and consequently, their pieces tore themselves asunder. They came to my shop seeking explanations as to what went wrong. What should I have told them?
Norm is, like the rest of us, a work in progress. He, however, is developing on national television and an audience of eager ears and eyes are watching, chewing, and swallowing. This is not always beneficial to their woodworking skills. Note: notice that I said “not always” as I’m not criticizing everything that’s done on the show. Please realize that the producers of the show are not furniture makers. They are television show producers. WARNING: More intended humor about to be inserted…………..This is not Moses coming down from the mountain with the tablets nor you should expect it to be so.
Let me reiterate………Norm does not make his living producing and selling furniture. He makes his living as a TV personality. There’s nothing inherently wrong with this or with Norm for filling the role, but………as a friend of mine puts it, “If I’m going to learn to fish, I’m going to pick out the guy with the biggest stringer of fish to teach me how, not the guy with the flashiest fishing rod.” I suppose there are times when the two are the same, but IME this is rare. I frequently answer posts on these boards by directing people to books written by authors who have proven extensive knowledge in their area of expertise. I read these books and benefit from them also.
I do not understand how what was supposed to be a light- hearted free- airing of opinions about Norm’s show has managed to turn itself into such a verbal battlefield unless it indeed has religious overtones for some people. Yikes!!! It’s just a TV show, folks, but nowhere is it written that anyone who knows better is required to turn a blind-eye to the mistakes that are made and keep their collective mouths shut for fear of offending the die-hards. I haven’t seen the KGB prowling around here for some time now, so I thought it would be okay to voice my opinion, albeit somewhat sarcastically. Perhaps I should have checked behind the bushes first. No offense was intended, but obviously some was taken. I had previously constrained myself to answering posts about material and technique questions and am likely to return to that practice in the future. Hope I can be helpful to some of you as this is my intent. LOL
But how do you really feel about Norm?
I promiseed not to post here anymore after a fellow WW showed his/her ignorance, but here goes.
Norm is Norm at thats all there is to that. He promotes tools, Yes he does and he shows us what they do and how to use it. He scares me to death when he doesn't use the proper safety equipment. To bash Norm is human nature, he is doing something we all want to do, have are own show. I went to PBS with an idea of a woodworking show. All I was going to do was joinery, how to do dovetails, rabbets, M&T by hand then by machine. I was told that it wouldn't fly because the way I do the joints may not be the way everyone else would do them. There were many other reasons which opened up my eyes to the real TV land.
Norm is ok in my eyes. He got me back into woodworking after an absence of 9 years or so. I went out and bought a $150 table saw to do little projects around the house so the "Mrs." could have that "country" look inside. It has grown since then and now I am back into woodworking part time, no more full time for me. To be honest with you I do enjoy it as a hobby. Thanks Norm.
Edited 7/26/2002 10:44:37 AM ET by DAVE6281
As long as Norm has a show some people will continue to beat him down...
Would be nice to have a Fine Woodworking show (at least 1hr long) with guest woodworkers, but I am sure someone would find fault with that show too. I can hear it now, to complex projects, all hand tools. hand scraper whats that?
makinsawdust
I am not a professional ww, nor am I a rank beginner, but I can't praise enough Norm Abram. I know he makes mistakes, but who out there is perfect. The answer is ZERO. We all can learn from everyone else. Those arrogant enough to think they can't learn something new shouldn't even be reading this forum. They might find it offensive. I learn all the time. (I'm 67). When you stop learning, you are dead. They say the difference between an amateur and a professional is, the pro covers up his mistakes better. Is that you? Lighten up and don't be so critical of others or is it jealous. Maybe you could get your own TV show if you are so good and pass on your vast knowledge to others.
I think Norm puts out a good message to all woodworkers, he may use alot more power tools than the average guy and gal would but who wouldn't with an unlimited budget. He promotes the craft well. I have always liked Norm and will continue to watch his show. I think he does a good job at building reproductions of antiques. Wheather he is just a craftsman or an artist or top notch doesn't really matter. He is good at what he does or he wouldn't be on television.
Steve
After "lurking" on the site for a few weeks, I felt it was time to "come out of the woodwork", so to speak and add my $.02 worth. So here goes...
I am by no means a professional woodworker. I would consider myself a very serious amateur at times (and at others times an inept woodwacker). I have made various pieces for my family and friends and have a good time doing so. Some day I hope to move on to the next level in my woodworking career and, in fact, plan to take a cabinet building course at the local community college this Fall.
In any event, I am so appreciative that I "found" Norm those many years ago. He got me interested in woodworking and for that I am thankful.
I have never really viewed in a negative light the fact that he has all those cool power tools that I do not have to build his projects. For those projects he built that I have attempted, I viewed my lack of certain power tools as a challenge to come up with an alternate method based upon the tools I had. In fact, many times this caused me to learn to use certain hand tools that I probably would have never tried. And for this, I am extremely thankful. Otherwise, I would have missed out on quite a bit, in my opinion.
Also, I would suspect that many, like myself, realize that you can't do certain things just because you see it done on TV (otherwise, I would be able to fly because I saw Superman do it!). Therefore, when I saw Norm do something that appeared unsafe or questionable even to a rookie like me, I made sure to research the method further before trying to attempt it. I try to always remember that if it does not "feel" safe, it is probably not!
Therefore, I am a Norm fan for getting me interested in woodworking and for providing me with ongoing creative thoughts and expanding my woodworking knowledge, either directly or indirectly.
Thanks!
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