I am going to purchase a good plain and try to learn to use it. On an earlier post, it was recommended that I start with a good one like a Lie Nelson to learn what one should work like. Then maybe look for some of the older ones and tune them up. I think this is good advice. I have read several articles and knots posts on the subject. However, there seems to be conflicting information regarding a bench plane and a smoother.
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In some places, a #4 is considered a bench plane and a #41/2 is a smother. In other articles, both are considered smoothers or bench planes. Lin Nelson lists both the 4 and 41/2 as smothers with the number 3 and 51/5 as bench planes, and the number 5 as a jack plane.
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The number 4 seems to be the preferred go to plane for a lot of uses. My question is for a serious plane what to start with. Bench plane ie 3 or 51/2, Jack plane ie #5 to a smoother 4 or 41/2. Also would a number 4 and 41/2 be interchangeable? Would there be any reason to buy both a 4 and a 41/2. I am leaning towered the #41/2 just because it is larger and seems to fit my hands better. But bigger may not always be better.
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What’s a good starting number?
Replies
y1ret,
You on the right track. Generally speaking there are Bench planes, Block planes and Molding planes and probably a bunch more I'm not familiar with. Within the Bench plane family there are subsets: Smoother, jointer, jack, etc.
I put my money on the 4 1/2 because that is the last plane I use on the surface and I want it as good as it can be. The 4 1/2 has the high frog which helps with narly wood too. I want a plane that can make fine feathery cuts which implies everything is in tune. So it also acts as a standard for my other planes that I picked up at the flea market.
It has always been my understanding that "bench plane" merely refers to this general style of plane (like block plane, rabbett plane, molding plane, etc. are general categories).
Within the family bench planes, there are several species, and people use different terms to refer to these species, but the main ones are smoother, jack, and jointer. You may also hear about try planes, for example.
Any size plane can, depending upon how it is set up and the scale of work it is being used upon can do smooth, jack, and jointing tasks. Thus, choosing a size depends upon what you are using the plane for and personal preference. For example, a 4 1/2 is simply a slightly wider 4. Some guys swear the extra heft and width works better for their smoothing needs - fits their hands better or what have you. Either will smooth a board just fine. I might prefer the 4 1/2 if I were smoothing a large table top because it covers more area with each pass, but another guy might want to use a lighter plane and make more passes, or might be concentrating on smaller areas for clean up and find a 4 better. It all depends, and there are no hard and fast rules.
Hope this helps.
Y1RET,
Any plane with the iron/blade bevel facing up is a block plane and any plane with the bevel facing down is a bench plane. Jack, smoother, and jointer are terms used to identify a particular plane's purpose (generally speaking).
As for whether you should get a 4 or a 4 1/2, I would go with a 4. They are a bit more versatile than a 4 1/2, because they're not as wide. A 4 1/2 really is a smoothing plane. A 4 can smooth, but can also be used for rougher work. But really it doesn't matter. Get a good plane and use it. You'll figure out where it works well and where it doesn't, and that will help you decide which plane should be your second one.
Matt
"Any plane with the iron/blade bevel facing up is a block plane ".
I think that is not quite correct correct.
All block planes do have their irons set bevel up, but there are other planes such as mitre planes which use a bevel up iron, and may not be small at all. Then there are shoulder planes, rebate planes, chisel planes, low angle (therefore bevel up) jack planes, smoothers and jointers.
Just splitting a shaving, you understand....
Philip Marcou
I consider a miter plane a style of block plane. In fact, I don't think the size of the plane matters at all. Although I hesitate to cite this in support of my claim, take a look at the block plane page on the Lie-Nielsen website. Also, Stanley considered their low angle jack (the #62) a block plane.At any rate, I do think the difference between the two is whether the bevel is up or down. It is the most significant and fundamental functional distinction that can be used to subdivide "planes" into two groups.This is my personal signature.
A #4 1/2 with a high angle 50 or 55 deg. frog and a #4 with a standard 45 deg. frog, that will cover it all.
I recently purchased a LV 4 1/2 smoother and I am delighted with it. It is heavier than the 4 but the frog is adjustable so you can close up the mouth without taking the whole plane apart. I have used it on end grain and I am pleased with the results.
Greg
I have, and recommend, the LN 4 1/2. I like the additional heft over the 4. Otherwise, when I first contacted LN about which plane to buy first and they recommended a jointer. So, my first hand plane was a 7, and it is awsome.
I would still recommend you start with a low-angle plane, either a smoother or jack, as they are ultimately more versatile.
As far as bench planes go, however, I think you're best off with a jack (#5). It has the mass needed to be an effective smoother. Mass really does help. Also, the length makes it easier to produce flat surfaces.
The first plane I bought was an antique #4. It served me well. Then I got a #4-1/2, and that was all that I used. I found the short toe before the blade a little trick to start the cut with. So I got myself a jack plane. That is what I use for almost all my stock preparation now. I also have a LA block for smaller tasks. I reground the blade in my #4 and removed the cap iron and use it as a scrub plane.
Matt is right, in saying that a bench plane is a plane in which the blade is installed bevel down. The terms smoother, jack, jointer, etc. describe the length and width of plane.
If you're leaning towards the 4-1/2", I'd suggest complementing it with a jack. If you still feel that you need the #4, you can acquire that later.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hi,
I've read before where folks have removed the cap iron of their #4 and used the plane as a scrub plane. On my old Stanley #4, it's the cap iron that has the little slots used by the depth adjuster. So, how do we adjust the depth once the little slots are gone?I know, dumb question, but it's got me stumped.Mike D
Mike,
Dumb answer: manually. You just position the blade by hand, eyeballing it, then clamp it in place as usual. There's just no fine adjust.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Oh, that's just too easy.
Thanks,
Mike D
Y1,
The question you have asked, has been asked many times on Knots. The answers are always much like the ones you have received.
Let me give you a different answer.
"IT DOESN"T MATTER MUCH WHICH PLANE YOU BUY FIRST."
My rationale is: Many woodworkers who have used power tools for years get the urge to try their hand at manual tools. Some do it successfully and some don't. If you are successful in becoming adept at using hand tools, you will not be able to get away with only one plane. You will have a dozen or more. They will all be used for different things. It doesn't matter which you start with. The hard part is sticking with the learning process.
My belief is that it doesn't matter at all if you get a 4 or a 4 1/2 first. They really are pretty close. But how are you going to get your wood to the point where you need one of those two. You might need a jack plane and a jointer plane, and maybe even a #6, But you'll never know until you try.
So MY SUGGESTION is that you NOT buy a plane at first. Go visit a friend or fellow woodworker with a nice selection of planes, and get a free lesson, and try using the 4, 4 1/2, 5, 5 1/2, 6, 7, 8, some shoulder planes, a router plane or two, a rabbet plane, etc. Try using some wood planes, some old Stanleys and some new LVs and LNs. Try using some that are sharp and some that are dull. Notice the difference.
Notice that using a hand plane will give you a workout. Are you ready for that?
There are books and videos on taking rough stock and turning it into dimensioned lumber. You should do a bunch of reading about this.
You may decide that there are only a few things you want to do with hand planes, and you may decide to keep your motorized planer and jointer.
I urge you to think of hand planes as a system of tools. It is like Cracker Jacks. You can't stop with just one. You might become an avid collector and user, or you may give up the idea altogether after trying our a #4 on a recalcitrant piece of wood.
I wish you the best of luck in your journey. Many woodworkers have gone through that journey, and have found different destinations. These Knots conversations are fun and useful, but there is nothing like trying some planes, and working up a sweat. There is nothing like going to the shop of a person who is an afficianado of planes, and getting a lesson.
Whatever you do, have fun. Don't let the questions get you down. There is no one single answer.
I hope this helps.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Recommend "The Handplane Book" by Hack. It got me to think that, for beginners, the tuning of the plane is more important to learn than which # to buy. You could have two identical planes--one tuned for rough work and one for smoothing--and it would save a lot of time in between tasks. Of course Hack swears by mass for smoothing.
Brian
Brian,
Right on. Great answer, and to the point.Unfortunately there is a problem with giving advice on Knots or anywhere else. Sometimes the newbie can understand each of the words, but not the message. That is part of learning any new field. I have read Hack's book and I know your advice is wise, but how would a newbie know that? You mentioned "mass". If a newbie is wondering about the difference between a 4 and a 4 1/2, he probably doesn't have any idea of what the major parameters of goodness are for a plane. One has to be wise to recognize wisdom. Such is the plight of being young and/or being a newbie in any area. That is why I recommend that people not only read widely, but try things out before they buy. There is nothing like visiting a well stocked woodworking shop and trying out some planes. That, together with even more practice, and with reading Hack's book, is a good way to go.Have fun.
Mel
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel: excellent. When Brian goes to try out a smoother he must be sure to try the #41/2, since it has more mass than the #4 and G Hack advocates mass when smoothing (;).
But seriously now: the #41/2 size is widely acknowledged by cognoscenti world wide to be of more use then a #4 and also it performs better.
Ofcourse, if one were making only small boxes and other small items such as miniature furniture then the #4 would be less inappropriate than the #41/2.
I agree: there is (almost) nothing like visiting a well stocked tool shop.(;)Philip Marcou
Philip,
Great to hear from you. I believe that it is easy for an experienced woodworker to sift through 20 different pieces of advice and determine which he should try. For a newbie, this is terribly difficult, since he has nothing to go on -- no background to judge the usefulness of one piece of advice over another. I believe that we do a great job on Knots of giving advice to each other, but we do a terrible job of giving advice to newbies. I guess that we have forgotten how we used to think when we were newbies.Newbies are always looking for "THE ONE RIGHT ANSWER". Usually they are asking the wrong question, but somehow we answer the one they asked rather than helping them rephrase the question.I have a lot of fun at Woodcraft for two days a week. When people come in and say, should I use a big mallet or a small mallet for carving, I know they have never used a mallet. My response, "Here, try five or six of them, and see how they feel." They often seem astounded that they can actually try them out. It always leads to a good conclusion.With regard to #4 versus #4 1/2, I do the same thing: "Here, try them out." Interestingly enough, some of them don't like the #4 because it has a smaller tote to grab on to. I know that I can only do so much for them because they really need to use the planes for a while to notice the difference.Talk to your good friend, Derek, about a psychological term "JND" = "Just Noticeable Difference". A newbie probably wouldn't be able to notice the difference in what they could do with a 4 vs a 4 1/2 when they first use them. As we get more skilled, we can notice smaller differences. You, good friend, can notice very small differences because of your great experience with differences in planes, and your expertise in how to create differences to achieve different effects. We often forget that a JND for a newbie is much bigger than for an oldbie. To me, the challenges in helping newbies are very interesting. The difficult part is putting oneself in their head, and trying to figure out just what they are asking. It is like a five year old asking where babies come from. They are surely asking a different question than we think they are. That is what makes it fun.Hope all is well in your part of the world.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks for all of your replies to my question. I have been working at my day job and haven’t had time to respond to everyone individually, however I have read every ones replies and I do appreciate your taking the time to answer. That is what makes this sight so great.
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After much (probably too much) consideration I am going with the 41/2. It just seems to fit in my hands better and I believe the comments are accurate that there is not a lot of difference between the 4 and 41/2. It would be great to have a shop I could go try tools in before I buy, but unfortunately, I really don’t know any other wood workers. I know a lot of gear heads and computer geeks but no other wood workers. I do a lot of reading and trying thing out on my own. I also value the knots postings. Lots of good experience here.
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Thanks for your input
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Bob T.
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Y1RET,You might want to keep your eyes open for a LN Tools show in your area http://www.lie-nielsen.com/?pg=1 I've gone to a couple and they are great for trying out the hand tools. Usually they'll have competitors there too so you get to try everything.
Hi, Mel. That's really a great book, huh? But thanks to it now I feel I've got more 'book knowledge' of planes than practical knowledge. I need more planes in the cabinet! Your observations are facinating, as always. So hard to be objective. The part I need to work on is trying things out before I buy (thread 'You wouldn't like me when I'm angy . . ."--if you read it, go easy. I could use an aly over there.) But that's so often not practical. Yesterday I noticed a bronze LN block plane under the glass--there's an opportunity! Always a pleasure to talk to you.Brian
Brian,
Glad you liked my strange nonstandard thoughts. You have an ally anytime you want or need one. Please do the same for me. I value friendship far far far more than "winning arguments". Where are you located? Do you ever get near Washington, DC?
If so, please come on over and try my humble set of planes. I have gotten addicted to the things. For example, one of my favorites is an old Stanley router plane. I learned to use it to trim tenons. Works wonderfully, and guarantees that the tenon is parallel to the outside of the board. With one of those expensive shoulder planes, there is no such guarantee. But that is just my off-the-wall way of thinking. I really believe that reading is a great way to stand on the shoulders of others, BUT, without hands-on experience, it is impossible to evaluate the experience of others, so I really recommend that folks try out tools before buying them. Enjoy. Thanks for writing.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Yes, I do indeed like your nonstandard thoughts. I'm in N. California so I'll bet you a lunch that I never get to try you planes. You work at Woodcraft now? Sounds like a good deal for them. Hope its a good deal for you, too.Brian
Brian,
No. CA is far away. Too bad.I do enjoy spending two days a week at Woodcraft.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Brian:
I saw your comments about Hack's book, right on! Right on! I like the 4 1/2 and the comments of the other folks who've said to buy a new one so you can see what a well tuned plane should feel like.
I have collected a bunch of old planes over the years and tuned them up and enjoy them as well. Check with Clarence over at the Fine Tool Journal for his periodic tool auctions http://www.finetooljournal.com He's honest and really knows his tools!
See I'm really nice and I think we're off to a great start. Sorry about the other day!
Madison
Some thoughts to a Newbie about hand planes.
In this era of power tools, hand planes (and waterstones) are not a necessity to satisfying woodworking or quality work. But they're cool, and all the cool guys and girls have them - so we want them, too.
Handplanes is a complex subject.
- It inspires near religious fervor in some of us - and yet, it's still just a tool.
- There are lots of cheap, badly made planes out there. Leave them out there for now.
- A new, sharp, actually useful handplane from Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen will make your first experience with handplanes potentially enjoyable. I recommend a low angle jack plane, but it almost doesn't matter which one.
- Here's advice almost no one gives, but is essential none the less. A TRULY SHARP BLADE COMES FIRST.
An almost sharp plane blade is very close to useless. It is a dull ax, a mud-encrusted shovel, a chipped hammer with a big crack in it's handle and a loose head. Yes, it will move wood, but you have no chance of experiencing the good handplane experience with an almost sharp tool no matter how much you paid for it. Lee Valley and Lie Nelson both ship their excellent handplanes with blades ALMOST sharp enough to use. Don't be tempted - finish sharpening the blade!
Read a couple of woodworking articles on what sharp IS. For a start, research the scary sharp method, buy the selection of paper recommended, find a piece of glass to put it on, buy a good sharpening guide and practice with same until you can make the blade so darn sharp that you just have to show it to someone. This will take you several sessions over several days if you've never done it before. Think of it as apprenticeship.
Get a hardwood board, and a softwood board, and, with your new, sharp hand plane, play with it on them. Learn what it will do and will not do by experience on a couple of boards dedicated to that purpose.
Things that you will discover with your new LV or LN jack plane with it's newly, truly sharpened blade.
- Sharp good :)
- A deeply set blade removes wood quickly - this can be a good thing or a bad thing
- A finely set blade makes lovely, thin, curly shavings (a SHARP blade in a GOOD plane) - This can also be a good thing ("wow, just look at that surface") or a bad thing ("geez, am I ever going to get down to the line I'm aiming for?").
- Sharp quickly goes away and handplane no longer works like it should - darn! Time to touch up that edge.
Finally, if you can find a person who actually owns and uses handplanes on a daily basis in your area (wood working club is a good start - local woodworking school is another), and who will agree to spend an hour with you showing you how one works and how you use one, it will be worth much in avoiding aggravation, disappointment, and self doubt.
The mantra for today is OMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm..........
Mike D
Edited 7/27/2008 3:41 pm ET by Mike_D
Edited 7/27/2008 3:42 pm ET by Mike_D
My suggestion is to keep reading, I figured out exactly which planes I wanted to buy first, second, and third just by watching enough videos and reading enough articles.
One thing that no one has mentioned here is the new arrivals of bevel up smooth, jack, and jointer planes offered from Lee Valley (Veritas) I opted for the bevel up smooth plane as my first and only "number 4" smooth plane. The bevel up planes are very versatile, because you can just change blades to change your bevel angle. There is a great article in the fine woodworking archives comparing plane bevel angles, and also touches on comparing some of the traditional fixed angle planes against the new bevel up planes.
But that being said, most will agree that the most often used plane in the shop is not the smooth plane, but rather the block plane. Get a nice Lee Valley or Lie Nieslen block plane first, (probably of the bevel-up variety with an adjustable mouth.)
If you go use the 150 dollar tool, and then go back to using your off the shelf stanley, or worse, buck brothers or some other big box brand, you will never go back to the inferior tool. Then you can decide which bench plane to buy first. A smooth ranges from 9 to 11 inches or so. Jack plane is about 14-15 inches, and a Jointer plane is about 18-24 inches.
You mentioned the 3 and 3 1/2 planes, these are just smaller smooth planes. I suppose LN just didn't know what to call them, so they called them a bench. A lot of people never need a plane in this category since a well tuned block plane will normally accomplish the same task.
As for deciding whether to buy the 4 or 4 1/2 first. Doesn't matter one bit. Pick the one that does the job you need it to do.
I for instance have not bought a jack plane, or jointer plane yet, because I do most of this tooling with power tools. But I couldn't live without a smooth plane. Incidentally, the Lee Valley bevel up smoother is somewhat similar to a Lie Nielsen 4 1/2 in that it has a little more width and weight to it. But then the 4 1/2 proponents would probably balk at my choice of a bevel up smoother in the first place.
Yam,
After reading your post I would like to know what type of woodworking do you do?
I am not sure that "most will agree that the most often used plane in the shop is not the smooth plane, but rather the block plane." If this is reality then I would want to know why this is so. I am assuming that you are referring to items such as that #91/2 made by Stanley.
(Actually I find your post intriguing , but let us see about the above for the moment).Philip Marcou
OK, maybe "most will agree" was a guess on my part. But let me explain. I personally grab my block plane more than any other. I know I have tuned my block plane and sharpened its blade probably twice as much as my smooth, and jointer. I do not own a jack plane. But I mostly build cabinets, and I use a lot of power tools for those tasks. I believe that Norm (an avid power tool user) has said the block plane is his most used plane. (Someone correct me if they heard otherwise) Also, if you watch David Marks show "wood-works" (I have tivo'd and watched every single episode) You will see David go for the block plane more than any other. Its the go-to tool for trimming dovetail pins flush, trimming endgrain, works pretty well for trimming tenons (chisel plane specifically) and I personally grab the tool mostly to trim plywood edges, drawer slides, and to just generally make things fit. Also, I build wooden surfboards, and I have never once used anything but a block plane for those. I love to watch skilled rough planing, or a skilled worker actually joining an edge straight without a guide is pretty amazing. I personally don't work that way.So, thats just me. There are plenty out there who use smooth, jack, and jointers on a daily basis. Those who prefer to do all hand work might use a jointer plane much more than someone who owns a power jointer.
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