Hello Everyone, I am new to woodworking and this forum and have some very basic questions about window and door trim.
My wife and I want to put up Craftsman-style trim throughout a house. On some larger windows we are planning on building up a header piece from 3 separate pieces of wood (from bottom to top): 1) a 3/8″, rounded piece of 5/4″ stock that will sit directly on the side trim pieces; 2) a 4″ wide piece of 1X (3/4″) on top of that; and 3) a piece of (roughly) 1 1/2″ wide, 5/4″ stock on the top. The bottom and top pieces of 5/4 will be slightly longer than the middle piece (i.e., will overhang the center piece on each end – drawing attached).
OK here are the naive questions:
1) How best to join the 3 header pieces together? I saw a carpenter build up window/door headers once using biscuit joints, but how would (could?) biscuits work with the lower thin strip of only 3/8″?
2) Since we have lots of trim to put up, should I get a nail gun (vs. hand nailing with finish nails)? If yes, what kind?
3) As for the wood itself, I have been thinking of VG fir. Unfortunately it is about 2X the cost of clear pine, but we really like the look of it (we intend to stain it, not paint it). Good choice?
4) I’m also new to finishing so I got a Taunton press wood finishing book by Michael Dresdner. Hopefully it will answer all my questions but an initial basic one that I’m sure has been asked a million times is, “Is it easier/better to stain/finish the wood before putting it up”?
Thanks in advance for helping with such basic questions!
Derek
Replies
Derek,
I think your question might be better suited to Breaktime. Guys over there run miles of trim each month.
However since I lurk in both forums I will give my opinnion.
I would do it all with brad and finish nailers and maybe some titebond molding and trim glue.
Nail or brad the bottom peice to the middle and the top peice to the middle. Then install. The 'assembly; would then sit on the side casings and can be nailed into place.
You can't use biscuits for the bottom peice but nails should be fine. You could use biscuits for the top peice. However it reallly is not necessary. But is would be solid.
The header assembly need not be fastened to the side casings. As long as the header assembly is level and care is taken a nice tight joint should result where the header assembly joins the side casings.
As a diy'er it might also be better to install the header first with proper reveal on the jambs and level or as close as the old window jamb will let you, keeeping the reveal relatively consistent. Then cut your side casings with a slight back bevel, and fit them to the header and window stool.
As far as hand nailing, no way. A decent compressor small one, is about 299.00 often this includes a brad nalier and 16 gauge straight finish gun. I would probably use both if I had them, 16 gauge to mount the trim to the wall and a brad nailer to assemble the header. However you could use the 16 for everything.
Actually 15 gauge guns are better in my opinnion to run trim with however they are not usually offered in kits, w/ compressor.
One thing to watch out for pine and fir are generally soft and a nail gun can dent the wood where you set the tip so use the rubber foot that comes with the gun.
As for wood choice Vg fir is nice, it is up to you if that is what you want. I wouldn't settle for anything less than select pine that is knot free, if you choose pine. How about oak? It is a traditional craftsman wood.
There is probably a ton of good info in your book. Read it. I would recommend a thorough sanding before sealing and staining. And a good protective coat of poly or shellac.
if you should try the titebond molding and trim glue a damp sponge would take care of any excess otherwise you will see it when you stain.
As far as staining, it is easier to stain/finish the molding before putting it up. With a nailgun very little trace is left of nailing usually just a hole to fill, vs a dent from the slip of a hammer. Running trim is not usually considered woodworking, and thereby not much glue is used. However where you are building up, you might elect to use a dab of glue. so I would build my assembly then stain it as a whole. Poly, install, fill nail holes w/ putty and you are done.
Hope this helps.
Webby
Edited 8/4/2008 7:12 pm ET by webby
Edited 8/4/2008 7:14 pm ET by webby
Edited 8/4/2008 7:15 pm ET by webby
Edited 8/4/2008 7:16 pm ET by webby
Edited 8/4/2008 7:30 pm ET by webby
Edited 8/4/2008 7:34 pm ET by webby
Hi Derek,
I was in the same boat as you were about 9 months ago when I decided to trim out our house remodel. We did craftsman style trim too. Depending on the room, we did Cherry, VGDF, and paint grade stuff. For the Doug Fir, We only did clear coat, I have seen some beautiful dark stained Fir, but I decided natural was good too! :).
Anyway, I went through the same struggles on using a biscuit jointer or just nailing. I believe that the only place that I've seen the biscuits used are from the casing to the header or the casing to a plinth block at the base. Any way, after many discussions on the Fine Homebuilding forum, I went with nails and glue. I'd highly recommend a nail gun or two to do this kind of work. I wouldn't try this without a nail gun and a power miter saw.
I cheated a little on my trim and built part of it up in the garage. The fillet or 3/8 inch rounded piece on mine is flush with the header at the sides. I also put a 3/8 cap on header and topped it with a 3/4 inch chamfered top cap. But this way I was able to pre-assemble the headers and just size the top cap.
I've attached a photo of my finished VGDF trim. You should check out some of the trim posts by Ragnar17 on the Breaktime forum.
In regards to your biscuit question-
Look in to a Kreg Jig.
One of the best way to join the header to the legs.
It is very popular over at Break time and a little searching over
there will yield many threads on the subject.
Derek ,
Imo Skip the biscuits and glue and clamp each set before gluing / fastening to the walls. This is a very traditional and typical shape and style of what some call a craftsman cabinet head .
Enclosed is a picture of a similar style with different but authentic details .
dusty
1) When I do these, I make them up before installing. I generally just glue them up with a few 23 ga pins, if needed, to hold things together until I get the clamps on and the glue dries. You definately do not need biscuits for this -- especially the bottom bead. The glue/pins (or glue/no pins) will work fine.
2) A lot of trim? A nail gun? No. Do not get a nail gun. Get three nail guns -- 16, 18 and 23 ga. Oh, and a compressor. (I don't like the Paslodes -- too fussy.) If your budget does not allow this, hand nailing is fine. Slower, but fine. But plan to pre-drill a lot of it.
3) Only you can decide what wood to use. Fir is fine. The only question is how much you are you willing to pay for *the* look you want (but that most other people who walk in the room won't notice).
4) I HATE to stain/finish trim before installing. With a passion. I just wanna get it up. But, if the trim touches another finished surface, like a wall or a floor, and I plan to stain and clearcoat it, I always bite the bullet and finish it first. It's just too tough to do it in place without mucking up the surrounding area.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Derek. This kind of work is sure a lot faster and easier with guns. If you go with the fir, the only thing I would caution you is that it is really prone to splitting when you shoot closer than about 1' from the end. However it is much less, if you hold the gun right. Look at the ends of the nail strips. They are wedge points, and the wedge should be across the grain for best results.
I would pre-finish, and even paint the walls before installing. Maybe do one more coat after filling the nail holes.
I don't know why anybody would bother with a kreg for this, unless they just like to make life more difficult than it needs to be.
Keith/All,
Thanks so much for your responses and great advice... I wasn't even sure where to start! Looks like consensus is to go with guns and pre-assemble/stain before putting up. Jointerman & oldusty...the pics look great...if I can do half as good I'll be happy.
I will definitely find the Breaktime forum as suggested, and will post any future questions there as well.
Thanks again for your help...I'm sure I'll be back for more!
Derek
Derek, don't go away completely. You'll probably get some more responses here at Knots. My tip relates to your intention to "stain" the wood. If you're thinking about using VG fir, test a piece with your stain before you commit to a bunch of wood. Depending on what color you're aiming for, you may or may not be pleased.
Most of the VG fir I see used around here (Puget Sound) for trim is finished pretty naturally, without stain near as I can tell. I would think the soft/hard (early/late) growth areas would make any attempt at a medium to dark stain problematic.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 8/5/2008 11:34 am by forestgirl
forestgirl....thank you! Yes, I have been concerned about the staining issue you raise.
We were hoping to end up with sort of a medium brown shade...not as dark as some true craftsman homes, but darker than "natural". Here's what I've done so far...please jump in and keep me from doing something stupid!...
I've tested a couple stains on both fir and pine boards. One is a pigment stain (Jel'd stain by Wood Kote); the other, I believe a combination of pigment and dye (Minwax). I like the Jel'd stain for its ease of applicability (at least for me), and was hoping to use it if it tested OK. On the first fir board I was not happy with the result. It was exactly as you cautioned...with the larger pore grain areas holding more of the stain and looking darker than the other areas. The overall look was "stripey", and although the grain is pretty, its not the look we were after. After reading some of a book on wood finishing, I tried again. This time I sanded better, down to 180, and used a pre-stain wood conditioner. This helped a considerable amount. Although the grain is still visible, the overall look from a distance is more solid. I think if I could repeat this, and maybe even leave a little more stain on than I did in the test, I could get close to the look we want. The other route is to use a dye or combination pigment/dye stain. I'm now sitting on the fence! One thing I'm not sure of is how easy the Jel'd stain will be to apply with a brush to the actual window frames. These as you know have a lot of nooks and crannys and I can't see being able to rub the stain on those areas effectively. I suppose I should make up a mock window frame and try it. Although it is a gel, it is very soft and I'm hoping it will go on fine with a brish. Finally, Wood Kote does also have a liquid product in the same shades, so if the gel didn't work for the windows I could always use the liquid stain for that.
That's where I'm at right now. If anyone out there has experience staining VG fir I would really love to hear their advice!
Thanks again forestgirl...I will indeed hang in here in this forum!
(PS: I was planning on using spar varnish as a finish)
Derek
I'll leave it to the experts out there to help with specifics on handling such a staining job. I know just enough to give you a "head's up" in this particular situation, as I live at the center of the Vertical Grain Fir universe. ROFL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I just finished some similar styles in my house. Did you catch the article in FHB about two months ago? They had a detailed article on this exact thing.
Keep in mind that the large style craftsman trim does not flex like the narrow strips. Unless your walls are perfect you will end up scribing pieces to fit properly. If you use biscuits and pre-assemble the window heads and stools you will end up completing the scribing task with hand tools and much patience. Scribing the individual pieces with the bandsaw or other electric tools is much quicker. I learned this the hardway because I did pre-assemble about three window frames before figuring this out.
I assume one of the reasons you are considering biscuits is to avoid the nails. For the lower head piece and the window stools I screwed a 2x4" to the wall and then another atop this to clamp the pieces in place while the glue set. Make sure the screws go behind the boards and you do not have any holes to fix. Worked like a charm.
Nailgun? For sure. I agree the 15g bostich is great, but it is kinda big for some applications. I used the 15g for nailing down floor edge boards, but went to the 18g bostich for the casings.
I would suggest you stain in advance and touch up in place as needed. This leads to quite a bit less protection of existing wall finishes and the likes. I would think carefully about staining. It will add quite a bit of sanding time if you are the fussy type. I may not be too bad since you are using square sections, but mine were profiled so I ended up hand sanding.
Good luck
Brad
Edited 8/5/2008 7:22 pm ET by brad805
Brad, wow your trim looks great! What type of wood and finish did you use?
As for the biscuits, I only thought of them because I saw a carpenter use them on a different style trim (advice given to me here is just to nail/glue).
And for the walls...no way are they absolutely flat, so thanks for the heads up about scribing. I have never scribed before...looks like I have another task to learn! I know I sound like a beginner (I am). But I am not in a hurry and I am willing to put in some time learning/experimenting to get an acceptable result.
Should I look for a book on carpentry to learn more about scribing, or do you think there are threads on this site on that? (I'll look)
Thanks...pls. keep coming with the advice!
Derek
That is Cherry wood and a custom profile I came up with. I made the trim myself on the shaper. I finished it with a washcoat of shellac, cherry gel stain, shellac and then a final wax coat. I am prepared to re-finish in a few years as I suspect it will not hold up well, but it is hard to beat the "in the wood" finish of shellac. Plus it matched my base trim.
You will likely find that the window or door frames may not be flush in some locations. They can be inside or outside the drywall in some locations. I chatted with some pros and they general concensus was to scribe the pieces whether the window or door frames were inside or outside the wall. I asked about this as I was contemplating planing the frames flush where I could instead of scribing to fit. The main reason it was suggested to avoid planing in place was most found it was difficult to avoid damaging the existing wall finish.
Scribing is not too bad. It will take a little practice. I wouldnt bother much looking for a book. Practice on pieces if you are not in a hurry. You will need a jig saw or circular saw, a good handsaw and at least one sharp chisel to make final cleanups. I suggest you try it on some pieces. There was a discussion of scribing on Breaktime a couple weeks back and a few pros mentioned a couple of neat little markers (one from Hafele) that they use, I just use a pencil and make a few trips back and forth to the shop. The marking is the important part. If that is correct, then it is merely following a line.
If their are lots of places where you have thickness differentials above or below the window where you have the wide boards you could find that a belt sander or a plane will be necessary.
Brad
Brad, forgot to ask earlier...do you have the issue number of the FHB article you cited in your message? Hope you're still out there.
Thanks....Derek
I found the article on FHB's site. If you become a member there too, you can download the .pdf file. It sounds like you are doing a bunch of finish work yourself and are not quite to the woodworking stage yet (cabs'...). The Breaktimers are very helpful and you will find more pros there to help with this kind of thing. Anyway, the article number is below.
From Fine Homebuilding 196, pp. 60-65
May 14, 2008
Brad
Brad, thanks so much for your advice. No, I am not even close to a woodworker wannabee yet, so I will shuffle over to Breaktime. I had no idea where I was when I started with Knots!
Thx again for your help....I will get that article...
Derek
I've done a lot of these & the fastest method I've come up.I don't care for exposed endgrain so I take the 3 sections of the build-up, place them on a work table, then glue & nail off staying 3" to 6" back from both ends. Take the whole assembly to the sliding chopsaw & miter both ends such that the main portion of the header stock it the length you want it to be. Since the beaded fillet & top caseing are wider they will project farther. Cut mitered returns for all 3 pieces on both ends. Then use hot-glue to attach the retruns. I've done hundreds & never had one fall off yet.
I found the titebond trim glue works very well for the little returns too. I cut mitre pieces that were longer than needed and trimmed off with a japanese saw once the glue was dry. It sets up very quickly so I just held for a bit and it was good. Clamped a few too. I ended up machining or sanding a few pieces after too and none fell off.
http://www.titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP?UserType=1&ProdSel=ProductIntroTB.asp
Brad
Thanks Brad...will get some of that glue...Derek
Whats good about the molding and trim glue is it is extremely thick and will not run. Thickest glue I have ever seen in my life.Webby
Maybe we're talking about the same thing. I use Tite bond's HiPurformer hot glue. I used to use Titebond 1 or II with Collins clamps but found the hot glue worked as well & was faster.
Nope, I checked their site and you are using something different. I just noticed this titebond a while back. I used it on my project and it worked well without clamps. I did have to set the pieces aside for a bit before making the final cut, but that was ok for my slow project. I am no expert on this, just tossing out another idea. The hot bond system you use may be a better choice and you have the experience to back it up.
Excerpt from Titebond site for their Molding glue:
Titebond Molding & Trim Glue is the thickest, fastest-drying glue available for use with porous and semi-porous materials. It is ideal for finish trim, crown molding, baseboards, window casings and other applications requiring a professional-strength, no-run wood glue.Titebond Molding & Trim provides a strong initial tack and fast speed of set, yet allows realignment of working pieces. It also develops a bond stronger than the wood itself, offers excellent sandability and is unaffected by finishes
Brad
Now I know what you are using. That works well in area where you don't want the glue to drip. Crown molding, vertical pieces, etc.
Brad, that's the stuff I thought you were talking about...the Molding & Trim Glue listed on their web site.
Where did you get yours? Do the big box stores carry it or did you have to order online?
Thx...Derek
I found it at a local hardware store.
mathewson, thx for the tip! I think I understand & will try a few practice pieces to make sure I've got the idea...
Derek
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