Hello All.
I am looking at getting a new tablesaw and I am finding that there is so much out there that deciding what to get leaves me gun shy as to what is important and what is too much. I was wondering if anyone has looked into the new stuff from Steel City with Granite. Would it be worth the money.
Ok, some background. I am a novice. I know enough to get me though the few projects that I have done. I wish I can do projects every day, but I would be lucky to have something once a month. I have a Craftsman Hybrid saw (not happy with) now that I want to sell and get a cabinet saw.
Space is no longer an issue with the new shop/garage.
I was looking at Grizzly and Steel City. Grizzly has a great price on there G1023slwx with the 5 hp, but Steel City has the granite top which is a great idea. I could be overlooking some other brand.
I wanted to keep the price below $1500.00
Thanks for any advice.
Replies
There has been a good deal of discussion at Knots about the granite top idea. SargeGrinder47 is our direct pipline to Steel City, he's made himself an expert on their big tools such as the table saws, jointers and band saws. If you want to do some research, click here for the earliest discussion on the granite top. It's important to read all the way through, as some early concerns are answered further on. Also, if you do an advanced search using Steel City granite and go back to the Beginning of time, you'll find some other discussions.
If the granite top goes over your budget, you can still get a 3HP Steel City cabinet saw, 50", on sale for $1199.
View Image
It's on sale at Woodworker's Supply, drop-shipped directly from Steel City, for $1200. At least one Knots member has purchased, maybe he'll speak up. Look at the saw with the Catalog Number 035630DV
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/15/2008 11:46 am by forestgirl
Thanks Forestgirl.
I have done some research, but I have not ran across those blogs.
Besides the obvious advantages of no rust, warps and extra weight (which speaks volumes), and that its new tech, I really can not see any additional advantages. I looked at one at Woodcraft down the street and the Steel City Granite is sharp. It looks like most of the standard upgrade can be applied to the granite, as long as it can bolt to the stock anchor points, but I would not want to have to create new ones. It can be done, but that would not be fun. The slot just looks like a dato so aftermarker jig should fit just fine.
The Steel City I was looking at was the 3 hp with a 30" fence. The Grizzly I found also had a 42" Shop Fox fence. The Grizzy has a 5 hp motor. Not being in woodworking that long makes me wonder what the real difference between the 3 and 5 hp motor really applies to. Would I need that extra hp or just slow fead rate.
So I have been torn between a 1200.00 Grizzly with a longer fence and more powerful motor, and a Steel City with a granite top for 1200.00
I can get a little more bang for my buck, or pay for the better quality. I guest the question is "how much difference in the quality is there?"
Thanks for your reply
We need Sarge in here, he can comment on the HP differences and when they are "worth it." I'll drop hiim an email.
I didn't totally follow your comment about the granite, upgrade and "stock anchor points" but I do remember that Steel City had to redesign the inards (innards?) of the saw to accomodate the thicker granite. Use of a stock or aftermarket miter gauge is discussed in at least one of the threads that will show up on a search. If I remember correctly it is recommended that an over-large washer be adapted to something like an Incra or other aftermarket gauge to keep it from chipping out the granite as it reaches the end of it's travel and tries to fall out of the miter slot.
Sorry I'm vague on details, but that granite isn't in my future, so memories aren't very specific.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
On the SC, there are 4 anchor point (bolt holes) on the front to accommodate the rip fence. Although other aftermarket fences should bolt on directly, there are other options that might not, like outfeed rollers on the back. Is there a possibility that an aftermarket option wont be able to be attached to the saw? that is my concern. I probably will not "Trick Out" the saw for some time, but not knowing what will come out in the near future, a saying comes to mind. "Luck favors the prepared". I have a bad habit of finding something I like, then finding out there is something that I want to do, but now I cant with what I have. So I am forcing myself to be extra careful on this.
Re outfeed rollers on the back. The rear rail of the SC is basically just an angle iron like all the others. Some people like to use it as the support for an outfeed table that's level with the table top, without a gap between. The Biesemeyer fence is no impediment to this, because it rides on a nylon pad on the cast-iron top -- that may be why Bies. changed to that system? The SC fence rides on an adjustable foot on the back rail, so you couldn't use the rail to support outfeed. There are ways around that, such as brackets below the rail and the outfeed -- Sarge shows his method on the other thread. There's no reason why you couldn't remove the rear foot on the fence and add a nylon pad further back on the fence a la Bies. The foot like the pad is there just to glide on.
Jim
The Craftsman you have is made by Ryobi for Sears. It is basically a Ryobi BT 3100. I had a BT3000 for several years and it is a good saw considering it cost $300 at the time. But... the 3 HP and up saws are in a different league with both power and castings.
The Steel City with granite fence in 3 HP is a fine saw. It comes with a riving knife and there will be a granite router table extension soon as already mentioned. The Steel City Forest Girl linked is a cast iron table with 50" rails. The big difference in that saw and the Grizzly is the Griz you are looking at is 5 HP and has to run off a 30 A 220 v circuit. The 3 HP SC runs off a 20 A 220 v circuit. And the Steel City Industrial fence is the best on the market IMO. No fence is so micro adjustable and it glides on the rails like a greased pig on a flag-pole ball.
To address 3 HP vs 5 HP... most don't need 5 HP. I just sold a 3 HP to get it because I rip a lot of 2" - 3" hardwood and the 5 HP will handle it better. A lot of cabinet shops use 5 HP but most suffice fine with 3 HP as they mainly rip plywood and face frames from 1" or less stock. So... if you intend to rip a lot of thick hardwood as I do for hire... you would be better served with 5 HP but unless you do 3 HP is plenty as it will rip 3" stock... just not a fast which is irrelevant to most of us as amateurs.
I like the granite top.. but the price FG mentioned at Woodworkers Supply would be hard to over-look with 50" rails and a Steel City Industrial fence. The fence is just that good.
Any questions feel free to ask.. I demonstrated both saws at the International WW Show in Atlanta two weeks ago for Steel City. Both are excellent saws. So is the Grizzly but.. the fence won't compare nor will Griz's warranty compare to the 5 Year of Steel City..
Here's my new Steel City 5 HP...tricked out a bit.. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 9/15/2008 5:20 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
I have the Grizzly you talked about with the 3HP motor.
On occasion I cut 10 foot long 2 inch thick Oak planks with NO problem at all.
A very good and sharp blade is MUCH more important than the extra 2 HP.I also like the shop fox fence.
I had a Ryobi 1 1/2 HP for around 5 years and I pretty much did the same thing on up to 1 1/2" stock. But it would burp on occasion. I have cut many thousands feet of 2" - 3" stock with my former 3 HP Uni-saw. It will cut it also but it will burp also on occasion when you get into some tension wood or wood with squirrel grain.
Frankly I would have kept the 3 HP Uni-saw as I always got by but... I had a chance to grab a 5 HP without putting a $ into the up-grade and I am very glad I did just that. I also agree whole-heartily about a sharp blade. I have 4 rip blades and two stay at my local sharpener. He gives me about a 3 day turn-a-round and charges $7.50 for 24 T and my 20 tooth rip blades.
Sharp blades are important as you say.. very important.
The Shop-fox is an excellent fence Roggy. So was the Biesemeyer I used for years. But the Steel City fence will glide down the rails much easier than either and there is a reason it will. Drop by a Woodcraft and slide one sometime... look it over carefully and see if you discover why it will glide along much smoother than the other T-Square fences.
Sarge..
Edited 9/16/2008 1:37 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Cool red paddle, Sarge! Is that hinged to the fence rail??
Every time you write about that SC fence, I get jealous. But I'm learning to use the Unifence, it has its advantages.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/16/2008 12:19 am by forestgirl
It is indeed hinged with a $2.50 door hinge. I love that paddle as even an old blind squirrel as I am can find it with my knee without any thought what-so-ever. It would be hard to miss.
The Uni-fence is an excellent fence as the Shop-fox. But.. neither will glide on the rails like the Steel City. I thought my Biesemeyer was the best T square fence I had ever seen.. until I used this fence.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge, thanks for the info.
Power will not be an issue. The plan for the new building is to have 110 on all walls and 220 in various locations. I live out in the woods so 3 phase will not be possible without a lot of extra money. Both units run on 220 single phase.
I will agree that 5 hp will rarely be needed, especially for a hobbyist. I am dreaming, one day, that I can do this full time, but that is a few years away. We can only dream.
Love your analogy "glides on the rails like a greased pig on a flag-pole ball"
I am looking to move up in class (or a few compared to sears) as far as saws. Space and power will no longer be an issue. Quality and price are and as you know, they go hand in hand. Quality goes up, so does the price. The Grizzled 1023 series has received a lot of good reviews but not excellent ones.
So lets level the playing field a bit. If I compare grizzly's 3 hp with SC 3hp it would still be worth the extra 2-4 hundred dollars just for the fence and warranty. If I understand what you are saying.
If I was looking a iron top on both, I would have to go with Griz. I have a hard time seeing the quality difference worth the price. I could put an aftermarket fence on it and still be cheaper. But put granite on one, and 5hp motor on the other, now we have a fight on our hands. Power versus quality. Too bad Grizzly has no plans to put granite on their table yet ( I asked them already).
I guess when it comes down to it, its better to have quality all of the time, than to have extra power in the rare times when you need it. I do cut rough lumber occasionally, but not all the time.
thanks Sarge.
You're welcome John... and good luck with your decision. Regardless of which you get.. both are good saws and a value. Or... you could just wait till the new Uni-saw hits the market in January.. save your money and get a drawer under the extention table for Only $2900 if it doesn't go up before then.
Then again... you could just build a drawer for about $8 and save a few coins. ..
Out in the woods.... when can I move all my machinery into a little spot in the corner. I can just go fishing when you are in the shop and work latet to not bother you. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
Corner? you can set it up in my shop as long as I can use it :D
I am sure 750 sqft will work. Or I can move my tractor out and double that space.
I will even let you use my boat!
I dont think I can swing 2900.00. Beside, what fun is it to buy a drawer when you can make it. Plus I would not call myself a woodworker if I bought things.
I have around 1200 sq. ft. to work with that is dedicated... but the woods sure sound good. I am surrounded by hard-wood and pine but... there are no woods to roam in as there was when I was growing up in what then was a rural county.
38,000 people in my county when I graduated HS in 1965. Last count around 900,000 now. As I said... they ain't no woods to speak of any more sadly...
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,There may not be woods around like they used to have, but at least the streets are all named for the woods that were once there, aren't they? You know, Cypress Lane, Ponderosa Avenue, or even Cherry Orchard Shopping Center.
Ha.. ha... I suppose you are right JM. A guy here on Oak St. does have a piece of Oak furniture in his condo as I saw it. He didn't know what wood it was made from and after I told him.. he still didn't know. But... I'm sure he would recognize concrete with no problem. :>)
Sarge..
I think you will get a laugh from this attached file!!!
LMAO all day today. That is one funny video. "I'll drag her over to Oak street..."
I've sent that clip to a bunch of people--thanks for the day brightener!
yeah,-
That is sad. The housing boom did not reach my area. A co-worker calls them nuclear neighborhood because they first level everything, including all of the trees. Then they plant houses 3 feet apart. So close you can reach out your window and touch your neighbors house. There is enough room to hunt using bow, but not firearms. We had several dear last year, but someone allowed a logging company in and they destroyed a good chunk of woods nearby. we are lucky to see two. Our 4.31 acres has a mix of hardwood, pine a junk trees like sweetgum. I am tempted to cut the pines down to give more room to the hardwoods.
I will be using the other side (where the tractor will be parked) for finishing on occasion. At least for the big pieces. I will make a plastic paint booth to help keep the dust down.
By what you have told me, I guess I will be looking more closely at the Steel City Granite. so the debate switches to 30 or 50 inch. And if it goes to 50 inch, I guess I will have to save up so extra. The saw is still under 1500.00 before shipping, but I am sure there are a few accessories I will need to get, or make, like a dedicated router table. My biggest fear is that this granite might end up just a fad. But it seems like such a great idea, its hard to see it not catching on with the other companies.
I missed the trade show. One day I will need to put these things on a calendar. I live in SC (South Carolina) so it might be a few years before the show return to this area.
Thanks again for your advice Sarge.
And thanks to you forestgirl and Jim and everyone else.
The next debate will be on shop layout. ha..ha..ha.
Just a closing thought John. If you do large ply panels the 50" is definitely warranted. If you break them down with circular saw first to get them to manageable size.. or if you more or less strictly rip on a TS as I do (probably not) the 30" is fine. I just cut my 50" rails to 40" as I don't use much ply. Basically for drawer bottoms.. chest dust shields and the odd construction job around the house. I do use it for shop cabinets (mainly MDF) etc.
I have had 5 kick-backs over 37 years (not counting numerous launches to the rear straight behind the blade) and 4 of them were from larger sheets of ply. It is difficult to keep it against the fence when working alone and if it gets out of control off the fence and turns into the blade... bingo. Basically I don't do ply anymore until it is cut down to under 36" with a circular. That is manageable IMO.
I do all cross-cutting on a SCMS that has extensions so I have capability of cross-cutting 14' stock coming into the shop with full support. I wouldn't try that on a TS either. A circular saw or chop saw first makes more sense. But I have seen folks asking for trouble and attempting it.
So... 30" if you do small sheets and mainly rip.. 50" if you work with a lot of ply is my rule of thumb on that decision. Space falls into play also.
BTW.. I kind of know what a pine is. I live in Lawrenceville, Ga. just NE of Atlanta off I-85 heading to Greenville.. Spartanburg.. etc. I took eight large pines from the rear of my wooded yard that were too close to the house. I had a pine fall on the house in the ice storm in 2000 (?) and had to re-roof.
Regards and good luck...
Sarge..
I work just off I-385 and I-85 in Greenville. Small world.
I do work alone and I do use ply for most large projects. I usually cut the panels down to size because my current shop is too small. 12x24 stuffed with tools. The reason for a new shop. having a 50" would almost eliminate the need to downsize the panels first. ah why not and its only 100.00 buck more. Sizing things down first just means I can spend more time in my shop. nothing wrong with that :)
I remember that storm. Our power was out for a week. Watch out this year. I have a feeling that we will have two good ice storms this year to make up for the lack of rainfall during the summer.
Enjoy and have fun.
Probably a case of too much and not need at the moment than too little and need. You can alway cut them down if you originally have them and re-sale value is higher also if you have the space. Just more fuel for thought as I have already been there years ago at this point.
Well neighbor.. if you happen to be coming through on I-85.. give me a call and drop by the shop. The welcome mat is always out. And stay away from the Beacon drive-in... that much tea is just too much caffiene for Clemson fans. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
oh, no you didn't.
I am not now, nor ever be a Clemson fan (except during the clemson/carolina game just to tease the wife). The wife's family is strictly GameCocks fans. And don't think I did not notice the Ga bulldog on your saw.
The invitation is also extended to you. And if you time it right, I might be able to talk to my neighbor into acting like a hunting/fishing guild. Dear season just opened for primitive weapons. I think GA and SC have an agreement on the licenses.
And hopefully by this time next year, I will have a small fishing hole NEXT to my shop.
ahhh, nothing like woodworking and fishing.
The only thing you have to watch out for here are yankees and yuppies.
I'll take you up on the fishing but will pass on hunting. I loved to hunt (especially quail and dave) and am a still a pretty good skeet shooter. But.. I haven't hunted since 1969. I was a team leader on a Hunter-Killer Team with 75th Ranger Reg. in Vietnam and the luster of hunting was just never there when I returned.
I do some skeet shooting and spend some time on the pistol range though as I have a Georgia Concealed Weapons Permit which is accepted on about 35 States I believe. But... I am strickly defense now as I oaid my dues on the offense.
Just kidding on Clemson.. Once a Game-cock.. always a Game-cock as it is with most college fans regardless of schiool.
Sarge..
I am not really a gamecock fan. I am just along for the ride because of the wife and her family. I don't get into football that much. But I do like to aggravate her when the big game is played.
Your Vietnam history explains why they call you 'Sarge'. I am ex Air Force (86-92), but I missed deployment to Dessert Shield by 3 days. I was cross training out of one field into another at that time, and still in training when Storm hit.
I, like you, don't do much hunting. Except I have yet to get anything, so I kind lost interest. Although sometimes I do have the temptation to just sit out on the back deck and wait. (now that's real hunting :-) ).
Come spingtime, when the pollen is about to fall, give me a call and we will get some crappy. The water in our area (what there is of it) is already cooling down so fish are very difficult to catch.
here is my direct email address.
[email protected]
I have your e-mail on file now.. John. If ya need anything just holler.
Sarge..
Dear Sarge:
I noticed your recent comment on the SC industrial fence: "No fence is so micro adjustable and it glides on the rails like a greased pig on a flag-pole ball".
I agree with the greased pig part, but I'm not sure what you mean about micro adjustable. In fact, I find it harder to make small movements with it...harder than my previous saw's Unifence.
So, I'm wondering if I'm just missing a feature that the saw has that I'm not aware of. What do you mean by microadjustable and how do you accomplish this?
Thanks,
"In fact, I find it harder to make small movements with it...harder than my previous saw's Unifence"...
And I'm not sure what you refer to on making small movements?......
But let me go over the adjustments as you should have.....
The standard right-left metal Allen heads (2) on the back side just as a Biesemeyer... these are the adjusters for making the fence rear move in or out.. or right to left. The difference in the Biesemeyer is you have to turn the fence over and lay it down on it's back to get to these two metal Allen heads. The Steel City just has to be raised as the Allen head wrench inserts on the outside of the back instead of the inside which is why the Biese must be flipped over on it's back.
Now.. on top of the "T" there should be two Teflon screws with allen heads. These are what raise and lower the "T" on the rail in the front.
Then on the front of the "T" that angles down to the floor there are two more Teflon Allen head screws opposite the two metal Allen heads on the back side. They micro adjust the right-left movement as the ones on the back get the "T" close to the rail so the lock cam had to be only gently suppressed to positive lock. These basically sandwich the T and front down angle to allow no movement.
That is why you can walk to the rear of the saw.. move the fence with your hand in either direction and when you walk back around and lock it... the fence rear won't kick left as on a Biesemeyer or any clone knock-off of the Biesemeyer which is a T - Square.
And of course the rear has a bolt that is attached under the fence body with a Teflon pad on the end. The pad rides the rail and the bolt can be screwed so it moves up and down. With that bolt and Teflon pad.. the fence main body does not touch the table and cause drag as on all other T-square fences. The original Biesemeyer had that bolt also but it was taken away from the design latter.
Now... if you don't have all those adjuster Teflon screws inserted where I mentioned.... I would guess you got a saw with the standard T-square fence as Steel City had at one time as an option. But.. they discontinued that fence not too long ago and went with just one.. the Industrial T-square as I have described.
So.. if you could explain the small movements.... I am busy in the shop until around mid-night and will check for your post on coffee breaks.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 9/17/2008 6:44 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Thanks Sarge. I think we're talking about two different things (although I really appreciate the time you spent going through it all). Your micro adjust comment refers to adjusting the fence so that it's square and accurate, and I am aware of all those adjustments (which I agree work very well).
What I'm speaking of is that when I rip a board and it's just a hair to wide, and I want to take off just a little bit more or less, I find that the SC fence is more difficult to unlock, slide just a hair right or left, then relock 1/32 away from my first attempt. These small changes seemed to be easier with the Unifence. Any tricks or techniques you use to make this easier with the SC?
That is the one reason why I STILL miss my old Vega Pro. It has a micro adjuster. For those that have never seen it, basically it had a mini version of the locking system that was attached to the right side of the main lock, and had a threaded wheel that when the micro lock was down and the main lock was not allowed you to adjust the fence either way, Then when you were dialed in you closed the main lock and away you went. I LOVED that devise. Of course the Vega did not get out of square as much as the Biesemeyer does before you lock it in.
To bad no one else has picked up on this idea. It would go great with SC fence. Heck I may be tempted to replace my Biesemeyer with a SC if it had that feature. (Micro adjustment during use, and the way the SC slides? That would be a great combo!)
Doug M
Still in morning for my Lost Vega Pro.
Ahhhh... ye old "bump right"... "bump left".... now that I would have understood as I have made a million of them. Maybe a zillion.. who knows. :>)
First... I must know the exact width I want the rip to result in. I just about always add 1/8" on my rip as my jointer is set exact for a 1/16" pass. The extra 1/8" is for a 1/16" pass on each side for a final edge I have a tape on my rail as you and was very careful to apply it so it is exact when I set if up. But.. cursors can get bumped if one is not careful. And exactly where did you put the pointer on the cursor on the line marker on the tape.. dead center (you thought).. slightly left or slightly right? The cursor line is often wider than the tape line. Not sure as I am not sure, huh....? :>)
So.. my tape and cursor get me in the general area "almost" exact in the majority of cases but.... I never trust the tape to get my final size. I have a framing square hanging on the wall beside my TS. Is it dead 90* degrees in it's L shape? Probably not off the shelf and what can you expect from a $6 framing square. But mine is now as I had my BIL (the shift foreman at Delta Air Lines machine shop) grind it so it is almost a perfect 90* at this point. Probably over-kill but it didn't cost me anything.
Do I trust the crude metal inch markers on a $6 framing square? I simply Don't... I put a self-adhesive Starrett tape over the line marking on the now square, framing square. So... I run the fence to the rail tape marker and lock it. I now place the short section of the L on the FMS on the fence with the added Starrett tape running to the front outside tip of the blade. If an adjustment is necessary.. I un-lock with the sqare still on place on the exact measurement and "bump left" .. "bump right" to bring it home on the short L section then lock the fence.
But... not done yet. Even though I know the fence is square to the blade in the rear I reverse the L on the FS and measure from the fence to the rear tip of the tooth on the fence side. Same measurement... I cut. Measure twice and cut once.
I have not put enough stock through at this point on this saw to know if bump right and bump left is easy or not. I have around 2000 linear feet of pecan coming in next week in 6" - 9" widths. So... I will know more about that next week when the fence gets a heavy duty work-out. From what I have encountered so far.. bump left and bump right is not a problem. But I will add that I may not notice so much as I totally concentrate on exact placement as opposed to how the fence felt getting in on exact placement.
Sarge..
Edited 9/18/2008 9:51 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Just think, you're only $2,500 from saving 5 fingers and a hand. . .Save your money, do yourself a favor and buy a SawStop.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
The big question is why hasn't the other saw mfg followed suit with such a major safety feature. I am sure that there are other ways of accomplishing the same thing that will not violate copyright laws. Also, just like airbags on automobiles, why hasn't the gov. /OSHA stepped in and require it on such devices.
2500.00, 10000.00, 1000000.00. Either way I would be waiting a long time. I only have a budget of 1500.00
After a few years of hobby level woodworking I still have all of my digits. I attribute it to a fear to the saw blade spinning. It keeps me from getting complacent as to safety. I also follow the safty rules (most anyway) that are outlined in the manuals. Yes, someone actually reads them. I also take my time. Its a hobby, there are no deadline in my shop.
thanks joe.
Well you clearly put a lot of effort into making sure the rip is accurate! Meanwhile, I just slide my fence to the tape mark and cut, such the amatuer I am!
Anyway, I have my answer...there is no "micro-adjust in use" feature on the SC fence. I initially thought (hoped) that there was a little knob somewhere that I hadn't discovered. And, it sounds like Doug once used something like this. It's funny...you see these microadjusters on router fences all the time, so it's a wonder that the fence people haven't developed what seems like a simple technology.
Perhaps I'll invent it, patent it, commercialize it, and make $billions. Watch for my picture on the cover of Fortune Magazine
Sorry,
Sears, Jet and a few others beat you to it on there saws plus a few aftermarket fences have it. SC needs to start offering it on there fences.
And a great idea.. it would probably not require that much thinking as it is done daily with router fences as you mentioned. BTW.. when sizing rough stock as I will be doing next week.. I simply just use the tape. Once you accomplish one straight edge on the jointer.. you simply measure a long board at the narrowest point. Then set the cursor on you fence tape to around 1/8" narrower than the narrowest point to get as much from that rough board.
But... when building furniture I use the framing square to be exact. It only takes about 15 seconds to go through the procedure and has become almost as automatic a reflex as driving a straight shift transmission. Usually a set up will include several rips of the same size so you don't really have to set up often when working with final rips on furniture projects.
Sarge..
It would be easy to design a micro adjustment into play on a fence (assuming you are making new fences) Take a look at the way the Vega Pro fence works (you can still find them if you look hard) It is just a small version of the main lock, that moves on pins with a threaded rod and a wheel that runs on it. The thing to remember when using it was to keep it about a 1/2" away from the main locking head so you could move the fence either way. Worked like a charm.
So if you can use your influence with SC I am willing to test out any prototype they may come up with (having used a Vega with Micro adjustment and a Biesemeyer with out) I promise that I will be fair and get them back good input, but I may have to keep test the fence for 10 or 12 years just to be sure :)
It is kind of sad, the Vega was a better fence (IMHO) then the Biesemeyer, but the Biesemeyer is the one everyone copied.
Doug M
I'm afraid I could only mention the micro-adjuster to Steel City as I have a table for their excellent drill press similar to the Delta table. You can get a good DP table with the Delta DP. You can get a great DP with SC but a marginal table at best. Their theory is keep cost down and put the money into a well made machine.
Interestingly enough... I have never seen the Vega fence other than pictures. If they are not being made that may make a statement as to isolating an item to produce. Perhaps not a big enough market to only offer one item. I really don't know as I am not familiar with why they are not being made.
But as with the DP... I had rather have a good drill press than a mediocre one with a great table. I can add a table exactly like what I want for my needs as only I know my needs.
Regards...
Sarge..
General makes an add-on micro-adjuster for their own T-fence, and another for Sawstop and PM. http://www.general.ca/pagemach/acces/saw_text/55050_80.html
I wonder if you caould adapt that for an SC?
Jim
I'm not sure if it would adapt or not but... from the picture I would bet it would. I looked closely at the picture and decided there is no rocket science to that adjuster. Simple attachment to the outer face frame on the outside face opposite cut side... then attach the screw bracket to the bottom of the T bracket. A simple design really.
I do believe I could make one from a veneer press screw or whatever without doing too much advance thinking here. And I might just do that between projects as I need to start a coffee table Monday to keep on "her" good side. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
When you say you have a Craftsman hybrid, which saw do you mean? The SC granite isn't that different from the latest Cr. version. Craftsman model #s are a nightmare, but I believe it's currently 22124 or 22804. SC doesn't call theirs a hybrid, but it has much the same innards, except for the riving knife, and was made in the same factory. For instance, it has a single drive belt rather than the three in the "deluxe" line of SC. It also has the same indifferent dust collection.
What is different is the level of service you can expect. Second to none from SC, next to none from Sears. Unfortunately people get to know about great service because they need it. SC's quality control at the Chinese factory is not the greatest.
I have the cast-iron 3hp equivalent of the granite, and it's a pretty good saw once you get the QC issues sorted. Whether it's a whole lot better than the Craftsman I don't know, though for me the riving knife makes it a better buy. If I had to do it again I'd get the granite version, now that SC is bringing out a router-table wing for it. The price difference is negligible, and the granite gives you more weight and a better guarantee of continued flatness.
Jim
Ryobi made the saw (BT3000), with craftsman stickers. I am not sure of the exact craftsman model right now (at work). Its one of the first Craftsman that had a sliding miter table. It also uses one wheel to control blade height and tilt.
Sears is out of the picture as far as a new saw. I am sure anything is better that Craftsman (in my opinion). The debate is between a Grizzly 5 hp with a cast iron top and the SC Granite 3 hp. Or anything else, delta, jet, Rikon. I am open to recommendation under 1500.00.
I own a Grizzly G0555 bandsaw and I am very happy with it. Getting a 5 hp tablesaw does seem appealing, but 1200 is a lot of money so I am being sure I am going to be happy and get my money's worth.
If I understand what you are saying, and please correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are or have been happy with the cast iron top, but are a little nervous about what can come from Chinese quality on this new produce.
I did notice that the Grizzly did come with a router wing, but I did not see one for the SC. Will that be stock with the saws?
From the sounds of things, its better to have a the smaller motor and not have the router wing and get the granite top.
Thanks.
The Craftsman in question is their top of the line model which (I believe) retails in the same price range as the SC entry level. Most saws in that price range come from China and Taiwan, and you hear complaints about QC from most of them. I didn't want to imply that SC didn't have these problems, but they do stand out for me because they address them fully and promptly.
At the moment SC doesn't have a router wing for sale, but they did show a granite one at IWF recently which should be available soon. Whether they'll have a cast-iron one I don't know, but there are other sources for these. After-sales service is important to me, because many manufacturers don't have a strong -- or any -- presence in Canada. Grizzly don't sell anything here, so I don't know what they're like. A 3hp saw will tackle just about anything a part-time woodworker needs. The SC that Forest Girl recommended is a heavier duty 3hp machine at a bargain price if you feel you need the extra muscle. In a recent thread Sargegrinder gave a pretty full account of his new 5hp SC, with reasons why he wanted that much power. I think for the amount of use you describe the SC granite would have plenty of power.
Jim
Jim,
The unit I have is nowhere near the top of the line.
here is a link that has a picture if it.
http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/bt3000-1.shtml
This units retail price was around 500.00, but I caught it on sale plus an addition 10% off. I could not turn down that price. I have added a few more things to it like a router wing, fence extensions and built a roll around stand for it.
Every company can have QC problems. But those that continually have one get exposed in forums like this one. In fact, the ones that have great QC also get exposed in places like this as you mentioned.
I bought a Rikon pen lathe last year that out of the box had issues. The indexing piece was missing and the wrench broke on the first use. I called there service department to get these issue taken care of. They were prompt, but it took a couple of tries to get it right. I had everything taken care of within 6 business days. Plus I have an extra wrench and belt just in case.
I also have a Grizzly G0555 14 in bandsaw I put a riser on. Out of the box works great. no issues. A bit of a pain to assemble, but still a great saw. I have had no need to contact them. This is one of the reasons I am looking at another grizzly product.
I did read that thread and was impressed. This is why I am torn between the grizzly with extra muscle if I need it and the SC which I am sure will have slightly better quality , especially with the all important top, but not the same amount of muscle.
The 5hp SC is out if my price range. 1500 is only in my price range after you include the shipping. I do have other means of cutting larger stock, like a chainsaw :). I have a radial arm I inherited from father that I use to cut things like 4x4.
Thanks for your advise.
With a $1500 budget you can get 2 or 3 used saws.
DJK
I will agree with you on that. I have been keeping my eyes open in our local papers and a few other places but no luck. Plus - I have had some bad luck with used tools. So I am hesitant about a used saw.
Thanks.
I'm one of the Knots members that purchased the 3HP SC $1200 version that ForrestGirl mentioned. I've had it for about 5 months and so far so good. For the money, it's an amazing value. Let me know if you have specific questions about it.
Just my thoughts,, 5 Hp is about 25 Amps! Not sure what your Electric rates are but by me.. I'd have to move to another state to pay for it! That's 10 gauge wire for a 120 outlet. My Village Electrical code would not allow it unless Hard wired with a cutoff switch (As in no plug/socket) ... 3 Hp motor, about 18 Amps, so may be a good choice..
For general use I would see no reason to have 5 Hp. Three is plenty! But then again just me.
Nothing about which saw.. Sorry.. I do not have either but I would think either is a good choice. Maybe Steel City a bit better because they are 'new' and making an 'marketing image'? I have no idea and I am NOT knocking either one..
I like the Granite top idea but I could not mount my existing cast iron router table and slider table that expect the 'common' cast iron mounting holes at the edges. Yes, I could probably work something out.. BUT!
Thanks WillGeorge.
You did bring up a good point that I did not think about. the extra cost in electricity for a 5 hp saw. As far as the wiring, its a blank slate. The saw will be going into a new building that has yet to be completed. I have about 40% left on the roof, one door and one window. Then I can worry about wiring and layout. The building will have 220 in at least 6 places and 110 in 3 places on every wall. There will not be a shortage of outlets. I have a 2008 builders code book (not yet adopted by my county) so I will be able to make sure its done right.
I have seen great reviews about SC product lines but no personal experience. I have a Grizzly bandsaw (the G0555 is great btw) but no tablesaw experience. I was keyed to grizzly because of there price. They are cheaper than the big boys, but they are not discount tools. SC cost about the same pound for pound and have a better warranty.
It has been a tough choice between extra power and router wing versus a better top and warranty.
The other thing I was worried about was any future enhancements like jigs and rollers and who know what. I have a bad habit to find thing that end up I can not use to the extent I thought I could. Story of my life. So I want to be careful about this choice.
Believe me, I do not mind having to build a router table. That is if my tablesaw did not have the wing. Which the SC does not have at this time.
Thanks again.
Will,Just a comment... For me, I probably wouldn't run a saw long enough to to see a noticeable jump in electricity costs even going from my current 1.5 HP Contractor's saw to a 5HP Cabinet Saw. My main consideration for a 5HP is that I had my garage wired for 5HP saw just in case I was to get one. Now I keep thinking that if I'm going to spend the money for a new saw, I might as well go for the 5HP. You know, to make it worthwhile that I spent the extra money in wiring.
I might as well go for the 5HP. You know, to make it worthwhile that I spent the extra money in wiring...OK... nothing I can offer except GO FOR IT!!!I live on SS so cannot affords it! I just gave a thought when the house tax bill comes!
If only funding were available. I wonder if I can convince my wife that the Home Equity credit should be used for a new saw.
Is there anything that can make a WWer more gitty that a new TS? Or even a "new" used one. I bought a "previously owned" Grizzly 1023 with a 30" fence and could not be happier. Until that deal came along, I was eyeing lustfully the 1.5 hp SC.
The point I want to make is that although granite is tough as nails, given the right circumstances, it can scratch, chip and crack. I'm not saying a SC granite top will crack under normal use but as a geologist by profession, I know you can scratch and chip granite, sometimes without trying. Given that no granite is perfect, it can have microfractures that are hard to detect. These factures line up sometimes and create a line of weakness. Don't drop a 2-pounder on it. Of course cast iron will crack also, and rust and chip and scratch, etc.
The upside to granite is that is polishes out real smooth. Granite can have iron minerals that will rust but is probably not a problem for this application. A true granite is light colored (pinkish or creamy) and is made of quartz and feldspar with a touch of iron minerals. Those are the dark flecks that sparkle. Darker granites obtain their color from iron minerals. In fact SC may be using the term "granite" in a general sense, but I don't mean to dwell on that aspect. It can also be ground dead flat. And the weight, ah the weight.
Whatever your decision, I know you will be in sawdust heaven for a long time.
Thanks stillfigurinitout.
I am a little familiar with granite with my metrology background. We use granite surface plates when calibrating some dimensional equipment, and the good ones are pink or cream in color. I have been in a few manufacturing facilities with coordinate measuring machines that are larger than some cars. But those machines had a charcoal looking slab.
I am sure that the granite will hold up to a hobbyist workload without issue. Besides, that why there is a good 5 year warranty.
I still keep my eyes open for used tablesaw, but nothing has come up yet. I still have some time before I buy a saw, with the work on the shop and all, so I can hopefully run into one or catch a good sale.
Thanks again for your input.
I had looked for literally quite a few months for a good deal on a quality used tablesaw - Unisaw, SC, Grizzly. I just missed a "used twice" Jet contractor saw by a couple of hours. On a Saturday night I decided to open a special bank account to fund a future TS that I could use for a long, long time. On Sunday morning, just out of habit, I opened Craig's list and there it was, a lady selling all her husbands WWing equipment. She had just posted minutes before. My hand trimbled as I dialed her number. The rest is blissful history. By the way, they are still married. Go figure.
And what did your get at such a great bargain?
One Grizzly G1023S right tilt, three years old and like new, with 30" fence and mobile base.
One 20-foot extension cord (not cheap)
One Woodworker II blade (sharp enough that I nicked my finger with a slight passing glance).
One King dado blade set (I still cannot believe she put this in the deal, maybe used a couple of times, no wear on the letttering).
One Jet tendoning jig (brand new)
Assorted magnetic featherboards, push blocks, etc.
All for $600. I didn't try to negociate. I just gratefully handed her the cash. Heck it cost me $100 just to get it home.
I attribute this to my wife's good luck cause I just don't get that lucky by myself.
And to think I had walked away from a $600 Delta contractor saw that Saturday at Lowes. Not a bad saw, but I just wanted a little more.
Brother, you really hit the Craig's List jackpot! The old saying of, "cheap at twice the price" is certainly true in this case! Congratulations! Post some photos once you have everything set up.
I haven't been here for a while, but skimming through this thread, I was surprised there weren't more people flogging the virtues of SawStop.Has the bloom diminished from this rose in the last couple of years?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Don't know what Sarge would reply, but I'm going to intrude and point out that it's pretty obvious the OP, Mr. Solomon, isn't looking in that price range. I think the rose is just as beautiful, NW, but he's looking for a different flower, LOL!
PS: Thanks for the input in the hammer drill thread.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/27/2008 11:46 am by forestgirl
Currently... i.e. before the end of September here's the SS price:3HP Sawstop
36 inch T-Square Fence
Right Extension Wood Table board
---$3207Mobile Base (if you're buying a SS, might as well go for the hydraulic base too)
---$300CA Tax= 8.25% Total = $3796.33
PlusShipping = $220-$275This is a lot of money. Although this isn't my original thread, I've been shopping for saws too. It's a great added safety feature and a nice saw, but it's just a lot of money! I went to look at the SS again yesterday. Both me and an MD were there contemplating the saw; both of us left still thinking about it!
I don't know what a Unisaw or Powermatic 66 is going for these days, but the SawStop price you quoted sounds like a steep premium. What struck me though, is that a couple of years ago, you would not see a TS thread here, without a cadre of people beating the drum for the SawStop, claiming that anybody who didn't buy one was an idiot and irresponsible about their personal safety. I'm happy to see that kind of brow beating has apparently subsided around here.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I think there are still a great number that taut it Nikki... and still a few that will call you an idiot and irresponsible for not spending over $4000 on one when you can get a very good saw for under $2000. Just not as many on this forum but that idea still exist on some others it appears to me. I think the concept is fantastic but... at that price I would not purchase it point blank.
I do believe that every school.. pro shop should consider it as you have students that seem to worry more about their next cell phone call than what they are doing with a very potentially dangerous machine. And their is always liability in a pro shop where dead-lines have to be met and some workers just seem to let their mind and hands wander. And the very expensive price of insurance premiums could potentially go down.
But frankly I have a great saw without a hot dog gadget and I take precautions... always.. So the fact I don't have one is not going to be a "show stopper" until I do (which I won't period) get one. But again.. in certain situations and certain individuals... really a great idea.
But... I start a coffee table tomorrow and without a blade brake on my brand new TS.. Imagine that?.... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
In fact SC may be using the term "granite" in a general sense, but I don't mean to dwell on that aspect. I for one would like to hear your.. , but I don't mean to dwell on that aspect. I love stone!
Mr. WillGeorge:
I'm probably just a bit envious of the stone top owners. It's a great idea. At first I thought of it as a novelty. But I think it has some staying power. I need to get up early to leave town for a few days, but next week, if you would like, I can post a simple explanation to my comment about using the term granite in a general sense. Thanks.
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