I scored a collection of miscellaneous tailings from a cabinet shop. I was planning to use this material in the construction of my new benchtop. The material is mostly poplar, with a few bits of oak, maple and pine. Since the material is all 1.5″ at least on one side and is mostly about 50″ in length. I figured I would just glue up small sections of 5 pieces at a time then join those together for a finished benchtop of 4’x7′-8′ .
Is 1.5″ thick enough for a benchtop ? Should I use a sheet of 1/2″ or 3/4″ MDF for a backing sheet ?
Any problem with using various materials ? for example 3 poplar then 1 oak then 3 poplar then 1 maple then 3 poplar then 1 pine etc etc.
Any problems with using biscuits to join up the strips to assure a smoother/easier benchtop to finish ?
Dimensional movement, wood swell across the grain ?
What finish, if any, should be applied ?
Any suggestions ?
Thanks.
Replies
Perle,
Sure, you can build an excellent bench with 1 1/2" top...however, you may want the 3/4 MDF to help add weight and more stiffness to the unit.
Many of us like thicker benches (2 1/2-4") because of tradition...and the inspiration that comes from that look and feel. As a tool for planing and joinery, the workbench needs be heavy so it stays put...keeping the top flat and level is important too...therefore, picking wood that is hard and stable is preferred...but not necessary.
You mentioned the wood was 50" long...not sure how you plan to make that into a 7-8' long bench. Personally, I'd prefer a 2' wide workbench and maybe a second table to hold the prepared stock, setup, etc. The two foot wide would allow me to get to both sides for planing and, hopefully, keep my workbench clear of things so I can use it as a tool.
But, I lean on the fact that a person builds five workbenches over a lifetime...so, build something, if you don't like it ...no biggie..
BG
"You mentioned the wood was 50" long... not sure how you plan to make that into a 7-8' long bench".
I am currently making a new work-bench that will be 6' (72") long. But yet it will support a 7' (84") long piece of stock laid on top, meaning that the top will touch the 7' stock at both ends under-neath it. The core (20" wide) of the 72" long top is made with peoples throw-way maple scraps. The outer edges are solid maple. The top width total is 26". None of the core pieces were over 10" long averaging 6" to 8" and widths varying from 1" to 6", yet it is a solid, one piece core 72" long 2" thick for the entire 72". The entire top thickness is 3 1/2".
I thought you might enjoy a brain-teaser. Can you tell me how I can do what I have described above? And don't go sneaking down to my shop to peek, cause what I have described is not fictional. It's sitting down in the shop at this moment. Will get some pics in the next few weeks if all goes well.
Have fun thinking about this... ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Sorry, had to edit as I entered wrong dimentions and didn't realize till after posting... jt
Edited 9/15/2003 3:53:11 PM ET by SARGE
Sarge,
Hmmmm...brain teaser....I guess if I was going to have a field (that is, a portion only)of sort pieces for my workbench...I'd put full length boards on the outside and maybe run a tongue and dado to join the smaller pieces together...at glue up I would make sure the end joints were staggered in the field. But your probably gonna paint it red and blue....(your so into fashion....lol)
When we moved out to the Midwest I was shocked to see hardwood floors made up of short pieces..in NE we only use long pieces of wood....:-) Likewise when I asked my builder to get me clear cedar clapboard for the siding he thought I was crazy..we did it his way.
BG
Trying to keep it cheap as usual. The small shorts are finger-jointed (had use of a shaper from a cabinet shop owner ) and glued into longer stock. Then the longer stock is glued into 6" wide sections. Jointed and planed and then glued together into a 20" wide core. Ran 6 threaded bolts completely through it for additional strenght.
A sub top base of recovered oak tongue and groove flooring is added on top of the core. Then a sheet of maple plywood goes on top of that. The ply is attached from the bottom of the core so it can be removed and replaced down the road if necessary. The entire sand-wiched core is capped outside with solid stock maple. ( I had to buy about 40 board feet ).
The base is made from a single re-covered Doug Fir beam that has been re-sawed and re-trued. It was 8" x 12" and originally about 24' long. I re-covered several years ago from an old warehouse being torn down.
The bench is 72" long, but extends another 12" because it has a twin screw vise mounted across the entire 26" end width. That gives you up to 84" of top support and 4 point clamping ability. Hence, support a 7' piece of stock.
Got to get back to work. Will fore-go the red, white and blue on this one. ........ Hmmmm... Wonder how an American Eagle in-laid on the top surface would hold up. Nah, trying to keep it simple and cheap. Estimated cost as it stands now is about $260 and the big part of that is vise hardware.
I like Beauty, but for a work-bench I prefer Beast.. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Sarge,
260 bucks, eh? That's pretty cheap, considering most commercial "professional" benches run anywhere from a grand to 1500 bucks. Actually, that's almost exactly what I spent when I built my bench roughly three years ago. I was just about to fork out a sizable chunk of change for the maple to build my top, when I came across an incredible sale on pre-fab tops. I picked up my 2 1/4" top for a song and used poplar for the base. The top I purchased isn't as thick as I was originally planning to build, but the deal was so good I couldn't pass it up. It's definitely heavier than needed, and will be even more so when I get around to building the drawers underneath. What a fun project, though. I don't think any project, regardless of complexity, is as satisfying.
R R
Yep, it's been a lot of work and I enjoyed every minute of it. Cutting finger joints and glueing all those together was a time comsumer. I had about 30 clamps working at all times. The maple scraps are finger-jointed into 72" lenghts and ripped to 2" wide. They were 3/4" thick. Then I face glued them into 4 1/2" to 6" sections. Shot through the jointer and planer and then all laminated together to form a solid maple 20" wide core 2" high. Added a tonge and grove red oak to that which is glued down. On the top part of the sandwich is a 15" piece of maple ply that can be removed, bordered by 6" of solid maple glued in the traditional way on the outside borders. I did have to buy about 40 bd. ft. to pull it off as I came up short of shorts.
I have no clue how it will react to seasonal changes at this point, but took that into consideration. All the scraps were between 8% and 10% moisture content. A few of those ideas will be posted in the next post to Dennis to answer some of his questions.
It's been fun and challenging taking the shorts I had to work with and coming up with a working design that they could be used on. What happens with time will remain to be seen. The bad news is it could fail. The good news is, "I did something nobody has tried as far as I know". I stand to gain both economically and in knowledge. If someone ask a question related to how mixing materials and joints will react a year from now, I will have first hand knowledge and can answer with a when, why and how it failed or succeeded.
So in essence, I have much to gain but nothing to lose. $30 won't buy a decent morticing chisel anymore.
Thanks for the encouragement...
sarge..jt
1 1/2" Top will be fine for most work you will do. I fact most benches only have thicker timbers near the edge where you are going to be using bench dogs and attaching clamp fixtures. The field as it is called can be much thinner as all it is doing is supporting the work and not much else.
As for using different types of wood this to is alright. I have seen several different benches that have had different woods in the surface. It can be for purpose or looks. I have seen then laid out every so many inches apart to be used as reference to getting panels to a rough square while gluing up work. Then only thing you have to keep in middle is different woods move differently over the seasons and therefore you should only use one type of wood in each strip.
As for finish I use thinned linseed on the top and varnish on the base. But as you will find out there are many different finishes out there.
Scott C. Frankland
"This all could have been prevented if their parents had just used birth control"
Nice find. Use the wood. You will need to stagger the end joints, of course. I think 1.5" is a bit thin for the first 4-8" of the top. This is where you will be using bench dogs, and do most of your pounding. Some go with 3-4" of thickness on the front edge, then thinner to the back. The Landis book as an example of this style.
I would use the harder woods for the front edge, and get them thicker somehow. Glue up if need be. I might shy away from the pine. For the first strip, forming the actual edge, I would go with the maple as it will hold a square corner better than the oak, and be less splintery.
Good luck.
Alan
Perle
I would add the 3/4" MDF or ply under-neath. This will help with stability and add weigh at the same time. There is no problem using various woods. It all boils down to having a work-horse design when they are joined together.
I use Watco for the top and wax it with Butchers Wax after it is complety dry and cured. When re-flattening time comes, it is easily removed with mineral spirits.
I am currently building a new work-bench that has several different woods used effectively in appropriate places. I would stay with harder wood on the outer edges (already been suggested wisely) as that is where the dog-holes are and will be most subject to abuse. (Pounding, slicing, dicing, shredding, etc.)
Don't worry about the looks, build it to take a "lickin' and keep on tickin'". ha..ha..
Enjoy...
sarge..jt
Perle
Sorry, missed one on the initial post. The idea of glueing up 4 or 6 pieces at a time is sound. I would glue them to just under 6" if you have a 6" jointer or 8" if you have a 8" jointer. The 6" sections will give you two advantages.
#1 Open glue time. That is a lot of area to cover. I would use a glue like Tite-Bond Extend that gives you about 10 to 12 minutes open. Set up the clamps in advance and stand the end piece up. Lay the other pieces flat and cover them quickly with glue using a cheap disposable 2" or 3" wide china bristle brush. Then you can just flip them up and mate the standing piece before you tighten the clamps.
#2 If you make 6" wide sections, this will allow you to run them through a jointer and planer before you glue the individual sections together. This will save a lot of hand-planing in the long run, even though some would still be required to get it flat. If you don't have or can't use a friends jointer and planer, then that point is mute.
sarge..jt
The benchtop being the 'business end' of the whole affair I'd suggest less of an attempt at an economical approach. The finger-jointing, the relatively short length (unless you build a lot of smalls) really leaves me with a less than excited feeling about what will be the most important tool in your shop.
What one usually sees is a first-class top set upon a base made of serviceable, but utility grade lumber, if economics are a real concern.
I'm all for a can-do attitude as has been posted by the other participants. But in some cases, and maybe this is one, the best advice is that which you may not have wanted to hear.
Sometimes you really can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Edited 9/16/2003 10:07:46 AM ET by BossCrunk
Boss
Since Perle didn't mention finger-joints and I did, I will ask why you think the finger-joints won't work. Have you tried this method and it failed, or is it just theory? I have already done it with about $30 invested in the longer maple stock used on the outside. The rest is no cost.
If the top fails, I am out $30 and I can build a new traditional one in about a week. If it proves to be satisfactory, I have a new top that cost me $30. Until I do it, I don't know what will happen. I view it as a win-win situation. Either way I have learned something and that's the real bottom-line as I see it.
sarge..jt
I was planning on just laying the pieces side by side, using a few biscuits for strength and to help maintain a level top surface. This is very much a project in the works. I have the bottom support structure finished and need to add a few crossbraces, then I will start the construction on the top.
I understand the need for additional thickness. Can I use common Douglas Fir 2x4's or some cheap pine 2x2 underneath the laminated worktop and forget the MDF ?
I have enough "nice" wood for the top, but I need more thickness to help with strength and structure. Suggestions ?
What if the lumber underneath is running perpendicular to the benchtop ?
Method of attachment ?
I appreciate all the responses......thanks.
Perle, you can make your top out of face-glued two-by-four Fir (Pine or whatever) boards . Then you'll have a benchtop that's three and a half inches thick. Save this other stuff for something else.
This much thickness will give you PLENTY of room to flatten the unit after it has been glued up.
You'll need 17 to 18 boards to glue up a top about two feet wide. At $3.00 per eight foot two-by-four you're going to spend about $60 on the top. Maybe you can't get the two-by stock that cheaply. But you're not going to spend more than a $100 unless I'm having a bad math day.
SARGE: Nope, I haven't tried it and wouldn't given the strategy above. Why bother?
Boss
Read my post concerning my top carefully. I don't think you will find I am using the same "strategy" as Perle described. I finger-jointed many shorts together with the grain length-wise. Then glued them into longer stock. Squared and trued those pieces and glued the 72" lengths into 6" wide sections. Jointed and planed again and then glued the 6" wide sections into a 20" wide core. There are threaded rods running from side to side for additional strenght. Added a 3/4" tongue and groove layer of re-covered oak flooring on top and then another 3/4" layer of maple on top of it. All glued to each other. Shoot 3" sheet metal screws in from the bottom side. They can be removed and the glue neutralized on the top layer to simply replace instead of re-flatten. Capped the outsides with maple in the traditional manner.
Why did I put so much effort into this? Because I had the free scrap material, the time and the curiousity. I think it will show little movement. When I read you post to-nite when I got home, I decided to see if you are correct without having to wait for normal events to take their toll.
I took the top and placed the ends on top of two 6" x 6" creosete post. Covered it with 6 painters tarps and put a portable drive up oil-changing ramp on both ends of the bench-top. Drove the left side of a 3/4 ton C-10 pickup down the center of the bench. Parked it and changed the ramps to the side. Drove over the center of the bench from side to side twice.
At this point I seem to be OK with strength. I will have to wait through the seasons to see what kind of movement it gets. Then again, even those through-bred Ulmia's do go out of square. All that money and they still go out of square. That's wood for you..
I wonder if anyone has ever drove their pick-up over an Ulmia to test for strenght? All I know is I've already had $30 worth of fun out of this so far. I might just split a cord of wood on top of it this week-end. And to boot, I think I might just have a "keeper" work-bench top. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
That sounds like a winner to me, Sarge.
Perle
I agree with Boss on face glueing the boards together. You need the grain running length-wise and some thickness to get the structual strenght you need for heavy duty work on the top. What you are comtemplating would be OK for assembly, but for heavy planing or chopping mortices in hard-wood un-acceptable.
My first bench in 1972 was a face to face 2 x 4 construction as Boss noted. I ran 6 steel threaded screws through it from side to side for additional strenght. The top, placed on a heavy base with plenty of under-neath support was excellent for a first bench.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Sarge -
I noticed you mentioned you placed threaded rods across your new bench for added strength. The first ever bench (and the only one to date) that I built was more of a mechanic's workbench in my garage that was simply a bunch of 2x4's laminated & glued together in much the same fashion. And with 4 or so allthread through the width as well.
Trust me ... (grin) - as the wood swells with moisture changes, which we all know by now it will, the allthread stays the same length and the nuts (and washers) merely get seated a little deeper in their counterbores. Then when the wood dries out in the winter (dryer around here in the winter than summer), the allthread becomes loose again.
I suppose taken to its logical absurdity, you could keep tightening the nuts on the allthread until you had compressed the wood under the washers to some subatomic threshold (grin).
I'll be planning my new workbench for the new shop soon but don't think I'll venture forth with the allthread this time (hehe)
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis
Took a few things into account with the "mix and match". The stock was all kept between 8% and 10% moisture content back in the wood-rack room until I got ready to work a particular section.
I have "been there, done that with the threaded rods as I en-countered the same with the first work-bench back in 72'. I counter-sunk 1" holes in the outer maple stock for the 1/2" rods. Plugged the counter-sunk holes loosely so I can pop the 1" dowel caps out to either tighten or loosen as required with the expansion or contraction.
I designed the top cross stretchers to inter-act the 4 legs with a open bridle joint or what some call a slot-mortice. That allows them to expand length-wise and width-wise. I intentionally left 1/8" of that stretcher above the leg tops so the actual bench-top sits on them instead of the legs. This allows the top to move width wise without contacting the legs. If the top were attached directly to the legs, un-even expansion on the the diagonal or opposite side might torque the top into twist or cup.
The center section of maple ply and the strip for the dog holes were intentionally left with a 3/64" gap to allow for expansion. This allows the center to free-float within the solid hard-wood outer perimeter.
The base is all made from a piece of re-covered Doug Fir beam re-sawn into 3/4" pieces. The stretchers are attached front and rear with through tenons that are pinned. The leg bases are morticed and tenoned into a 5" laminated base. The base won't budge as it weights a ton and I have built quite a few of these in a modified German fashion. No concern here.
Even though materials are mixed, I did a little home-work and found their is only a slight variation of shrinkage between the top materials of maple and red oak. I am optomistic and don't thing that will be a major factor. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I have already seen changes between high humidity to dryer fall weather here in Atlanta just in the last few weeks. I put the winding sticks to the top to-nite after the C-10 test and all is still flat an at 9% average moisture content. When I crank up that gas heater in the cooler weather is when the real test will come. Nice part is I can keep the shop betweem 60* and 78* a good portion of the year.
If you detect anything I might have over-looked, give me a shout. I sat down with a cup of coffee and did a little thinking before I under-took this project as usual. I'm sure I missed something to take into consideration though. At this point I just don't know what. I did the best I could with what I had to work with.
Time will tell if she sinks or floats. Either way, I come out ahead with knowledge gained that can be used latter in the journey. "Nobody knows all there is about WW and never will". (Spoken to me by Tage Frid a long time ago)
Evening my friend.... how's the new crib coming?
sarge..jt
Dennis, your comments are dead on. Threaded rod serves no purpose in a laminated glue up. It's actually a detriment. In addition to the compressing of the wood along the rod and the pulling in of the washers and nuts, it can actually cause a major deformation of the panel.
I'm always surprised when this comes up. Everyone seems to know the negatives of a cross grain glue up (ala breadboard end) but then suggest the ultimate cross grain situation of a threaded rod.
Howie
OK, Ok... I just read your post. Went down to the shop and popped 6 wooden caps. Took a socket wrench and removed the threaded rods. You can rest easy now.
Here I go dis-manteling my $30 bench-top. I will probably follow my wife's instructions to cut the grass tomorrow. Life just isn't any fun anymore. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Sarge,
Replace the threaded rod with a non-threaded rod of the same diameter. Let them float freely inside of the table (e.g. no glue) and cap the table top's edges as usual. You'll get the strength of the steel rods, without the compression warping problems of locked down threaded rods.
Resist the temptation to wax the non-threaded rods when sliding them into the top - wax and moisture go hand in hand.
How did the mounting of the Veritas Twin-Screw vice go? Do you have it up and running?
Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
Edited 9/20/2003 2:52:59 PM ET by Jackie Chan
Dan
Anything that had a metal rod through it and I could run over with a pick-up truck, can't be all that bad. I was one step ahead on this one. I took the threaded rods out, but put in a call for some smooth titanium or other hard metal rod. I won't mention my BIL at the Delta AL machine shop as the source. ha..ha..
The vise and jaws are ready, but not mounted yet. I will be assembling the base today. After assembly, I will Watco the whole shooting match and let it cure a week. Then I Butchers Wax it. At that point, I can add the vises.
I work on it when I feel the mood. Like everything else I do, I do one piece at a time. The luxury of not depending on it for a liveli-hood. Will post a pic when it's done. I do have to hurry a little, as my Xmas toys for the needy kids starts cranking in Oct.
Regards...
sarge..jt
If stock is face glued then expansion and contraction is through the thickness of the slab and not across its width (think about a series of 2x4's face glued to make a thick slab).
Avoid intermixing any composition material (particleboard, plywood or MDF) in your top. Solid wood will expand and contract and the composition material won't. Result--warping, splitting, etc. Even using solid wood but of differing species can frequently lead to trouble. Woods have differing expansion/contraction properties and two adjacent boards of differing degrees of stability can be problematic. It can even be worse if you glue a flatsawn board to a quartersawn board.
You can certainly attempt what you want but there may be problems.
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