I am going to replace my table saw and need some recomendations on what to buy. I have a Bosch 4000 contractor (10″) table saw that I have used for about 5 years. The Bosch has served me well but is under powered and is starting to break down. I have a very small workshop (10′ x 14′) and thus a smaller, portable saw is desirable. I have a budget of about $1,000.00 to work with. I will be using the saw for general wood working usually 3-4 times per month. If possible I would like a saw with a riving knife or one that can be retro-fitted with a riving knife later.
I am considering the following saws:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-2-HP-Contractor-Style-Table-Saw-with-riving-knife/G0661
http://www.ridgid.com/ASSETS/6DD2A6415D714AACB56E601C3B990E30/TS3660_2_Final.jpg
Suggestions or other models I should consider?
Cheers,
Velo
Replies
You might also consider a Delta contractor saw, or even one of their hybrids in the 1.5 to 2hp range.
I have a Delta Hydrid and it is the worst tool in my shop. Complete and total disaster of a saw. I am still trying to get it to stay in adjustment 1.5 years after I bought, 3 repair trips to my house, and one to the repair center. It still will not remain in alignment. Bad castings or what I do not know, but it is beyond frustrating. I need it to finish some projects, and then it will be crated back up and taken back to the repair center. Lot of fun loading and unloading a saw..... settingit up etc.
DO NOT BUY a DELTA HYBRID SAW!!
AZMO <!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
AZMO, have you tried replacing the trunnion contact washers with higher grade metal, and filing the mating surfaces between the trunnions and table smooth...probably obvious stuff but just wanted to be sure.
the problem seems to be misdrilled holes. Either the holes in the table are not correct of the trunion. They replaced the trunion but it is still pushed as far to the side with a bar to keep it parallel. So as you tighten the bolts it likes to move back. You can't redrill the holes in the table, they don't need to move that far. They have replaced several of the parts of the hybrid trunion system.
What happens over time, running sheet goods esp, is you get a little side pressure on the blade and it starts to creep. Soon it is over 1/16" out of alignment.... Now, I could do as you asked, and I would on a used saw, but if I do it on a saw in warranty then what happens...
Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Can you enlarge/elongate the holes on the trunnion bracket itself, allowing the bolts to go straight away into the female thread?
Yes that is a possiblity, but by doing so, you are getting very close to no material at the end for strength... Generally not a robust casting to start with. The Delta Repair facility nor the Delta on site repair person recomended this.
Morgan
<!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
If it's still under warranty, tell them to either replace both trunnion brackets or the entire saw....they didn't get it right and you shouldn't have to go through all this. You should also get a nice new blade or something comparable for your trouble.
My feeling exactly, soon as I finish up this closet system..... I can have time to deal with them. Can't afford to lose the saw right now. Thanks for your thougths and suggestions, nice to know I did not miss the obvious!
Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
If you're considering Grizzly, for another $125, I'd get the hybrid saw. (I have a similar saw that General used to sell.) The enclosed base makes dust collection easier for one thing, and you'll still have enough money left in your budget to get a mobile base for it, which I highly recommend.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP-Hybrid-Cabinet-Saw/G0478
Norman
Buy a used Delta Unisaw or General 350.
Velo, I think you are wise to try and get a saw with a riving knife, and I know how challenging it can be to fit a saw into such a small shop. My take on the situation is that $1,000 is an amount that falls in a void between the best contractor saws and the saw you seem to need.
A contractor saw actually is much less amenable to a small shop than a cabinet saw is, because of that darned motor sticking out the back. Hybrid saws don't have that problem, but so many of them are constructed on the same faulty design as a contractor saw, but with the motor underneath. The Ridgid saw, IIRC, is an exception. But it doesn't have a riving knife.
You could get a contractor saw, and end up having to save up and buy yet another saw in just a few years, or try to find another $300-$400 and get a cabinet saw with a riving knife now (check out Grizzly's offerings).
Another option, mentioned above, is to buy a used Unisaw, which is what I did. You will need an aftermarket splitter, though. There is an add-on riving-knife-wannabee, someone will probably post about it here, but it's not like an original equipment knife.
because of that darned motor sticking out the back... I AGREE and then some. I like my Ridgid saw and it works for me. However, than dang motor is more than a pain and always in the way! Especially if want a extension table off the back and you have to tip the motor to 45 degrees. It is always in the way no matter what you try to do.
Okay, that stupid outboard motor has hit me for the last time! I've been threatening to buy a new saw for a few years now and today I did it! I ordered a the small Grizzly slider!
Nice! Watch out for the sliding table.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I plan to be on the pushing end of the slider. So stay out of the way! :)
Slider......................................... NICE!!!!John
Velo - If you've got 220v, the Grizzly G1023SL is on sale for $1075 shipped and is considerably more substantial than a hybrid. You can also add a BORK aftermarket "wannabe" riving knife to it. If you don't have 220v, a hybrid will certainly do the job....I'd look at the Jet Proshop, Grizzly G0478, G0661, Steel City, GI, or Shop Fox.
I've had the General International contractor saw left tilt. Cast about 850 CAN. Good fence, got there mobile base. ok. Bought the tenon jig very happy.
Has the motor out of the back but space, is not a huge issue here.
Easy to set up and no problems since.
Only problem is I thought it came with a lacey little outfit for the DW to wear while she helps you assemble the saw. Quality time yea know.
I'll second the Grizzly 1023! I recently got a good used one to replace a Jet hybrid that I had acquired 3-4 years ago. The Jet is not even in the same league with the Grizzly IMHO. I found the Grizzly in our local classifieds for about $550, complete with mobile base, carbide blade, Frued dado set and 3 table inserts.
furndr
I completely second your recommendation of the Grizzly 1023. I recently bought a used one to replace a Jet hybrid and have been grinning ever since. It's a great machine! I have recently been ripping some 1 1/2 inch cumaru decking which is nearly three times as hard as white oak and the Grizzly doesn't even work up a sweat.
furndr
Dear V,
I have been a contractor for more years then I care to think about and my experience with "contractor" saws is that they are powerful enough to get hurt with, but really are lacking in general. FG hit on a basic design issue: the motor hanging out the back door. The first hundred or so times you bang into it, aren't too bad, but after that, it does become a pain. In the power department, they don't have it.... period. My guess is that you will be wishing that you had the Bosch back. For the 1K, you should be able to get a decent cabinet saw, perhaps an older unit, that won't take up any more space than the Contractor saw, will offer you the power and stability that you seek, while giving you a nice, flat surface to clutter up. If you were ever going to stretch your budget, now is the time.
Best,
John
I found these:
1) http://cgi.ebay.com/Steel-City-Tool-35900G-10-1-3-4hp-Granite-Cabinet-Saw_W0QQitemZ390060631788QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5ad16ce6ec&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A16%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
2) http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-UNISAW-1947-Table-saw-Cabinet-saw_W0QQitemZ300326438140QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45ecd9c4fc&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A16%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
3) http://cgi.ebay.com/Steel-City-10-Cabinet-Table-Saw-1-75-HP-30-Fence_W0QQitemZ160070045436QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2544eb0efc&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
John, even with the motor underneath, but keeping the table-attached trunnions (as many, if not most, hybrids do) it's a faulty design, IMHO. I've lost track of which hybrids are designed with cabinet-mounted trunnions, but if I were to buy a hybrid, that's the only design I would consider. Too bad it takes that extra$$$ to get the cabinet saw with riving knife! Hope our OP can find what he needs within his budget.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Dear FG,
I really don't have any experience with Hybrids, but I agree with your assessment of designs. The gap between the lower end cabinet saws and the Hybrids seems so small, I am not sure why they would be a consideration. For raw power, a bench top will beat a contractor saw all day. Again, for a hybrid, I really can't say. Have a happy Fourth!Best,John
"For raw power, a bench top will beat a contractor saw all day." Whaaaaaat??? Can't join you on that one, John!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Dear FG,
Perhaps my experience is too limited,or they have improved greatly in the past 15 - 20 years, but the times that I have used contractor type saws (Mostly Deltas and an older Craftsman) I found them to be easy to stall. When ripping, say 2x material, my experience has been that the contractor saw will stall before the bench top. Both can be stalled, but the contractor saws that I have seen on job sites usually become abandoned once a decent bench top is set up. On jobs I use a Makita 10" dropped into a Rousseau table with extensions. With a decent blade, I would choose it over a contractor saw. Best,John
Hi, John. Most probably, as a contractor you had access to much better benchtop saws than I've ever used. I hope to be using a nice new Bosch by the end of the summer, out at the stables, so will probably learn a thing or two about them!
My 1.5HP Jet contractor saw performed admirably, but it had a brand-new motor, and I used a 24-tooth thin-kerf Diablo blade for ripping.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 7/4/2009 12:18 pm by forestgirl
Hi Forestgirl,
I've always had the understand that the definition of a hybrid was that it had table mounted trunions and that the definition of a cabinet saw was that the trunions were cabinet mounted.
Back in the day, the gap between a contractor and a cabinet saw was big and the hybrid was a good compromise. You got some of the mass, a larger motor, and larger cast iron table/extensions of a true cabinet saw for considerably less cash. And, though table mounted, the trunions on the older hybrids were beefier than on a contractor's saw and usually had twin belts.
These days, as another poster pointed out, the gap has closed and the step up from a good hybrid to a cabinet saw isn't very large, making the better hybrids a bad value, in my opinion. Not bad saws, mind you, I've been using a good hybrid for 16 years now - just not worth it at only a few hundred less than a true cabinet saw.
I think the definition of hybrid has moved around a little in the last few years. The Craftsman "ZIP Code" saw is "officially" a hybrid, but has frame-mounted trunnions. I think there are one or two others, but I've forgotten what they are (It's kinda funny, once I bought my Unisaw, I stopped remembering all this stuff. ROFL!!)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forestgirl,
Re: Hybrids
I'm finding out things have changed. It all used to be so easy to understand.
Thanks for the info.
Frank
The true definition of a hybrid which consisted of the DW and Jet was it had table mounted trunnions as a contractor. They simply moved the motor inside which shortened the belts. But... along came Orion (owned by Steel City) with the Sears Zip Code TS and the rules changed as they opted to re-design to mount to cabinet.
So.. many of what are called Hybrids today are basically scaled down cabinet saws with cabinet mounted trunnions... slightly smaller trunnions.. usually a 2 HP or under motor (but not always as some can be had in 3 HP on special order) which of course puts the price somewhat under the main player cabinet saws.
So... hybrid for the most part is kind of a generic term with the exception of the DW and Jet and they may even have changed them? You might say small cabinet saw referring to them... medium cabinet saw referring to the Uni-saw.. Jet Exacta.. PM 2000.. Grizzly 1023.. etc... and then you have the Industrial cabinet saw with larger trunnions and motor in most cases.
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Sarge,
Thanks for the clarification. It looks like a lot of things have changed when I wasn't looking. Sounds like the definition of hybrid has become somewhat arbitrary.
There seems to be so many incrimental levels at which to buy a table saw these days. I'm almost glad I'm not in the market for one.
Frank
Steel City has a couple of new hybrid granite top saws. Highland woodworking is selling them for $650 and $950 respectively, based on size. Both have totally enclosed mobile bases (included in price), granite tops (lile your current bosch, these will not rust) and riving knives. Small footprints which is a win given your space limitations. I also have the Bosch saw and am considering an upgrade..... I saw these at Highland a couple of months ago and was impressed.
I agree that a cabinet saw is your best bet...... but in this price range this is my vote for best hybrid.
Take a look at the Dewalt table saw 746 considered to be a hybrid.
I've had mine for 5 years and its never had a problem. http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/tool_detail.asp?productID=253
I went with the sliding table attachment and the 52" rails (real life 50" usable). I have changed it to 220v and it does work better. (i know the theory it should'nt).
I would replace with the same again. You have many to pick from and in a recent test by FWW almost all were the same with little to guide selection other than price and color! One thing with Dewalt when I have needed a part for a tool, when ordered it arrived quickly.
How soon are you planning to make your purchase? If you are patient and a little diligent, there are some good buys available occasionally on Craig's List. Most of what you will see (under "tools") will be Craftsman table and radial arm saws, but you will also see Powermatic 66 and Unisaws and other well made table saws that would be an instant upgrade to your shop. Of course, like e-bay, you will most likely have to go pick the saw up and haul it to your shop, but you have a great opportunity to stay within your budget with a bit of hard work.
Jmartinsky in post number 8 has lead you to the watering hole.
There are some major bargains there.
Good luck
Thanks to everyone for the great advice and suggestions. I do appreciate it. I've decided to reorganize my work shop and to build a smaller work bench before purchasing the saw.Cheers,
Velo
One last recommendation. I have a Woodtek left tilt hybrid saw purchased for less than a thousand that I LOVE. Outfitted with a quality thin kerf blade I have never needed more power- ever. It saws through anything I throw at it with ease. I had a problem with the fence and they sent a new fence the next day overnight! They sell them at woodworker.com. I believe it to be an excellent value. Also have a dust collector by woodtek that I am very happy with...Ralph
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled