I’ve gotten specifications from 2 clients for several different small-item projects. Problem I’ve run into is when they want 1 or 3 “samples” before doing a whole run of objects. Obviously, the first one costs way the heck more to make than the rest! How do you guys handle this? I’ve responded to 2 project requests and it’s really cost me, though I’ll probably make most of it up by projects end.
So, for instance, how might you handle these:
- Client A is expecting to order between 50 and 100 sets of “handles” (4 different ones) for some tools he’s making. Would like 3 sets to examine quality and fit. I can probably pull some wood-in-stock out for the materials, one part is to be painted, so a few bucks there. Do I charge up front? How much? (e.g., the equation). Since I’m pretty new to this, it’s hard for me to tell how long something will take to make until I make it!
- Client B is the tough one. She orders months in advance, but sometimes wants a one-off sample before giving me the total she needs down the road. I’m giving her “wholesale prices” for the lot that she orders, but am now realizing I need to charge her more for these one-off samples. Am thinking full retail would be more appropriate. Your take?
- In general, do you ask for 50% up-front money once a project is decided upon?
TIA!
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Another proud member of the “I Rocked With ToolDoc Club” …. :>)
Replies
Charge them on the order of 5X the large quantity per item cost, with the stipulation that the sample cost will be refunded upon return of the samples if not satisfied, or discounted against a large quantity order. And, don't send the samples till payment has been received.
Or, charge them a set-up fee with the same stipulation. This might be best as you could vary the set-up fee based on the complexity of the initial work.
I've had several people ask for samples and I said no - you pay, I send, you no like, return merchandise and I refund. I've only had a couple of guys return something and one never cashed the refund check! Never could find him.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
You certainly want to get the [potential] client to see a sample, lest you lose the entire sale. But having the client understand the cost and trouble to make the samples is also in your interest. So I agree that you should charge for the sample (perhaps at a premium price), but offer to refund it either in part or in whole for a reasonable sized run.
The alternative is to get a down payment (25-33% of the total) on the large run, refundable if the sample is not acceptable. Then you are both motivated to make it work out!
Good luck,
Paul
Thanks to Mike, Paul and JD for all this valuable (literally!) information. It is a godsend! forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi FG,
I agree with Planewood.
Additionally, whenever I prepare finish test pieces (or other items that are used to reach agreement on aesthetic decisions), I always have the client initial the back of the test piece, on the reference label. Sometimes, I'll also ask them to sign and date a document that's cross-referenced to the test piece.
Before I started doing this, a few customers equivocated about the color, sheen etc. after the project had been completed.
Since I started doing this (part of which is a "requirement" that the customer examine the test pieces in their environment before they sign-off on a finish), the customers have been very pleased to have been invited to participate in the selection of "their custom finish," and I've had no problems (knock on wood!).
In some instances, this process has saved me considerable time. For example, I'll prepare a test piece that shows 3 or 4 different levels of finish (each with their own price), and encourage the customer to decide whether, for example, a finish rubbed-out to a mirror shine is worth the added cost to them. When providing unfinished pieces (like samples), are they willing to pay for a perfect prototype, or do they just want a down & dirty sample - especially in the early design stages?
This was difficult in the beginning, because I wanted all of my work to reflect my very best efforts; being up front about the different processes, and their respective cost, has saved me and the customer time, aggravation, and money.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
The way I have treated this in the past is that proto-types are built on a time and material basis and a bid if necessary. I also let them know that there is tooling involved on the proto-type that will be use in the approved production run and I remain in possesion of the tooling at all times, even though they paid for it. I also explain that setting up for one is sometimes as time consuming as a set up for 100. Just takes a little longer to make 100 parts.
I also will have the client prepay for the proto-type and there is no refund if the part comes out as per approved plans. This way you wont get burned if they don't like it or change their mind. Any changes to the proto-type ressult in more set-up time on the production run
I have also know to make the 100 parts when I do the proto-type and I just don't tell them. When I have this, it only back fired once. That is when they wanted larger order.
" That is when they wanted larger order." No downside to that! Thanks, Brian, appreciate it! Hope things are going well with you in your new locale.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I have always done well by showing them a portfolio of similar items and perhaps something that shows off well something they are very concerned with like precision or finish.
Fully completed samples cost you money and time, who would you rather have pay, them or you? Paying for prototypes is why their are job shops that specialize in prototypes.
A value added process is to offer to work with them to design the item so that it both works for them AND is designed to be mass produced. I have done that a few times and it has always worked out well, plus it makes you out to be not only a professional, but someone with an edge most firms don't have.
Showing them a sample of a similar project never hurts. Someone once asked me if I could work to tight tolerances on small parts. I just showed them this item, off a run of a few hundred sets.
Thanks for the input Michael. However, since I've just started with this kind of stuff, I don't really have a portfolio! The tool handles are fully described in CAD drawings with specs, and he's been very specific about various tolerances, and where I can improvise after running it by him. The gal I referenced brings me items she's bought elsewhere and is having me make "very similar" ones (these are pretty generic pieces) for her painting classes. Now that she's seen the first sample, she seems more willing to just order several, rather than asking for a sample (whew!).
You're right though, once I get a few of these under my belt, I can put together a notebook and some references, it'll be much easier.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"Someone once asked me if I could work to tight tolerances on small parts. I just showed them this item, off a run of a few hundred sets." Wow! Sorry I missed that on first reading. What were those for??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Forestgirl,
If your shop is an established one in your area with proper references and a good track record, these folks should be comfortable with the concept of hiring you to produce these jobs for them in their entirety. Asking them to make a financial commitment to you is not unreasonable in this case. The samples are going to be a part of most jobs and should be absorbed in the production costs, ideally.
If they know they will be ordering 100 parts from you, define these parts with a drawing and a price for the whole job which includes the price for design time, and jigs or fixtures. The initial deposit should be half of the parts plus this set-up and tooling charge. Say the handles are $20.00 each, and you will have about $350 in shop time and materials for building production jigs. The deposit should be $1350, with the remaining $1000 to be paid on delivery. Any subsequent orders for these parts will not require the tooling charge, since you have already built these jigs. State how long you will preserve these jigs in your shop (3 years for me) for reuse.
If they want the sample piece to use in selling the part, then the job doesn't exist yet, and you must charge full but reasonable price for it. Remember, a one-off will nearly always be different from a production unit, so this is not the most accurate way to sell the piece. Always expect the customer to commit to you and bear the financial risk of their project, otherwise they may have you jumping through hoops toward no profitable conclusion.
Forest.. No help here because I usually work free or just break even sometimes these days..
I worked in Marketing.. We NEVER gave anything away unless we KNEW the customer was 'special'.. We checked bank references first...
My best customer when making doors was a old lady.. VERY PICKI! She always wanted free stuff.. Which stupid me obliged... Finally I said to her.. NO MORE FREE STUFF.. She just laughed and said back.. 'I was wondering when your business sense would be as good as your work'...
The only time I had a situation like that was a set of chairs that I charged 1200 each. I built the first one for $1200 out of soft maple and did the upulstry my self (not pretty). After delivering the "sample" we agreed on a couple of changes then I started on the set. I didn't glue up the sample and it became my template for all the others. I would have built a "practice" chair anyway just to help me work out the details on cheep lumber. I charged $800 up front for the sample then the ballance for the chair was due on delivery no matter what. Because she liked the sample I got the job. So instead of paying the ballance I applied the $800 to the down payment which was %50 (there are 10 chairs). That is sort of convoluted, but I had never built a chair before and she was going out on a limb. This deal was fair for both of us.
I don't know of any buisness that gives free samples of custom work.
MIke
"I didn't glue up the sample and it became my template for all the others." Clever! I wonder if I would have thought of that?
I don't plan on doing any samples for free, but on the first two jobs, I sure underpriced them. Must be getting old, it took it awhile for me to realize how much time it took to get these things settled. I really appreciate all the advice I'm getting from you and the others!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
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