I can imagine all sorts of potential methods, but does anyone know the generally accepted traditional method for excavating the field on a pie crust table with hand tools?
Also, was all that edge work hand carved? I can’t imagine a plane or scratch stock doing all that on some of the circular saw blade type points and valleys I’ve seen.
Replies
Sir I have no idea. I have never made anything like that.
Maybe something for you to look at. The post it is in multiple parts...
I 'think' I got link No. 1??/
http://lumberjocks.com/GaryK/blog/8559
EDIT: I took a quick look and seems better that just good info. I saved the link so I can read later...
Edited 5/19/2009 11:37 am by WillGeorge
Thanks, Will. He uses an alectric router and jig. I'm curious what the ol'boys did.
I use my routers all the time.. OK, so when the shop is warm enought for me to tolerate the tempature...
I find 'hogging' out wood with my routers and bits. Some good, some bad, for both.. Leaves less than what I would consider the 'ideal' finished surface. I always have to finish off with my card scrapers..
I'm curious what the ol'boys did.
A Draw Knife and a Small Curved Head Adze?
As I recall, my old grandpa, had a 'flexable blade' draw knife. I could be wrong, but I am sure he could bend the blade with the handles!
And then again my grandpa was nobody you wanted to mess with if you liked your face...!
Edited 5/19/2009 12:20 pm by WillGeorge
Sean - While there's certainly evidence that round table tops were generally done on a lathe, there are some examples of solid tops with carved moldings where it would not be possible to use a lathe, because the top is an overall roughly retangular shape with a scalloped, cyma-curve edge profile. There's a couple of ways to do this with hand tools - one could carefully excavate with a router plane in stripes, then remove the wood left for the router plane to run on with gouges.
But (and I'm speculating here), I suspect that these tops were done with a "quick gouge" to hog off most of the wood, then smoothed out with planes and scrapers. It's possible to get pretty dang close with carving tools if you've had some practice, and it's very quick compared to using planes. Of the few examples of integral moldings on dished, rectangular tops that I've been able to examine closely, the molding shows evidence of having been carved.
I suppose it might be possible to use a scratch stock to refine the molding, but I doubt that - the blade's edge would've had to be pretty far away from the fence and holder to get to the inside edges of the molding, and I'd think that it would've flexed too much in use to be practical.
Sticks in my mind that I vaguely remember an article by Gene Langdon, that was in FWW years ago. Same article may have been reprinted in one of their book compilations. May want to do a search on the FWW site to see if you can find it.
T.Z.
Old timers dished out the top on a lathe.
Gottshall recommends a heavy duty lathe. If not available, he suggests a couple of router jigs, one of them with the tabletop attached to the faceplate. He adds "The inside of such a rim may be hand carved to shape, if one is very careful and if no better method is available..." (!)
Jim
There is a great article by Eugene Landon in Issue 67, Nov/Dec 1987 "Turning and Carving Piecrust". I don't have it in front of me at the moment but I believe he excavates the field using a lathe. Yes, the edge is all done by hand; the article has a lot of good close-up photos.
Sam,
I wasn't there at the time, of course, ( ;-) ) but I have seen old tabletops that look to me (undulating tracks longwise of the grain of the top) as if they were excavated by ploughing grooves (using a plough plane and/ or a router plane) every couple inches to a set depth, then cleaned up by planing down to the depth of the grooves, and then scraping. No doubt, some were lathe turned as has been suggested as well-- but, such tops have a tendency to want to warp as the stock is removed, removal of the material all from the top side has a tendency to relieve stresses that make them want to cup, and the edge of the thing will start wobbling, even as you are turning it. This movement is not so much a problem when you are hand digging, as you (the plane) are referencing off the surface itself, and not an independent fence, as in turning.
The perimeter molding must be hand carved. Truth to tell, most of the old tables I've seen were not dug out that deep, and the molding around the edge is frequently not in really high relief. It is not as unpleasant a job as you might imagine to carve one once you get into the routine, the chisel shapes determine the profiles of the molding, and allowing for the switching direction of the grain comes naturally after a bit of practice.
Ray
Thanks, Ray, and everyone else. That all helps. By the way, I'm not thinking of reproducing a pie crust, but more generally thinking of adding a similar raised edge element to an upcoming effort.
Traditionally, the center was evacuated on a lathe, usually a hand lathe powered by your apprentice, the edges are hand carved. This is a terrible picture, shot through dirty plexiglass in poor light, but you can see the hand lathe in the back. This is a recreation of the famous Dominy shop.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
"usually a hand lathe powered by your apprentice,"Actually, apprentices weren't used for this job. The turner himself would spin up teh crank on the great wheel, then RUN over to the lathe, chisel in hand cut some chips, then RUN back as the wheel slowed. That's where we got the phrase "running a lathe".Adam
That's where we got the phrase "running a lathe". Good one!
Geesh, don't tell my apprentice! Talk about a workout.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
The "generally accepted" traditional method of excavation is to use a lathe that has an out board turning facility-such as the Wadkin lathe here. The tripod independent tool post is made for turning these large diameters. I made one (1) pie crust tripod table once upon a time but had the hard part done by a professional carver. It was easy because the wood behaved and the lathe has suitable speeds- there is a need to slow the spindle down at maximum diameter in order to preserve the work piece and life and limb.
You can see the tripod tool post in the picture but I now use that part of the lathe as an "outboard disc sander"-and most useful it is too.
The other way, seen as inferior, is to plant the carved rim onto a flat thin top-but then it is not "excavated".
Lathe for basic recess, and the outermost edges. Then lots of hand carving, and use a scratch stock. The forms can be laid out quite easily with a compass.
Two things should be remembered. First, people who start at age twelve working most of the daylight hours and persevering to become journeymen or masters really did have hand skills.
Second, the geometric precision that you think of when looking at a pie crust top isn't likely quite the reality if one measured closely. Our eyes correct those things.
Samson,
Check out "Making A Pie Crust Tea Table" by Tom Heller and Ron Clarkson. Its a Schiffer Publishing LTD at 77 Lower Valley Road, Atglen, Pa 19310.
I have a copy and used it to guide me in making my own pie crust table which is a hybrid of a few designs I found. The book is very self explanatory and very easy to follow with clear photos and instructions. Making the table top looks more overwhelming than it is. Its a great project to just take your time and enjoy each moment.
Regards
Jabe
Samson,
The idea for bandsaw boxes originated with how the first piecrust tables were made. Most people don't know this so please don't spread the word. If you look closely at the old tables, you will see that they started off as single wide boards.
If they had big bandsaws, they could have just resawn the big board into two boards, and then sawn out the fancy edge from the "top" board, and glued it back on. THis is very logical but was not practical So they sawed the "big board" length-wise into four inch wide boards, and marked them so they could be reglued in the right order.
Each of the four inch wide boards was then resawn to half its original thickness. The pieces were reglued so that they ended up with two wide boards which were half as thick as they started. Now they easily handcut the edge out of the top piece and reglued it onto the bottom piece. Voila. Now all you have to do is the carving.
They did this very carefully and most people don't notice the edgegluing. It looks like a single piece.
Now you know. Bandsaw boxes use a technique that was originally used in preparing to make piecrust tables.
Enjoy,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
If you look closely at the old tables, you will see that they started off as single wide boards.
Mell you have the gift of words that just crack me up,,,
I thought ALL my stuff started with single wide boards.
And Sir.. Do you have any patterns for Barbie Doll furniture.. Both of my China Dolls fell in love with them and I want to make some furniture for them.. They will not let me measure them.. I am one that never argues with a woman! (Pissed my wife off sometimes)
Edited 5/23/2009 9:25 pm by WillGeorge
Will George,
Glad you liked my attempt at woodworking humor. No, I don't have any plans for Barbie furniture. I made a dollhouse and lots of furniture but I kind of made it up as I went along. Also, I found kits every once in a while. I just went to Google, and I typed in "Barbie doll house furniture" and got lots of hits. I hope you find something.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I highly recommend Gene Langdon for the true skinny but I just saw an episode of Scott Philips turning a pie table using a lathe. You may find it of interest.
It was a rather strange episode. He had sapwood running next to dark wood down the middle of the table. I could maybe see putting the lighter sap wood on the outer rim but seemed amateurish the way it was laid up.
Then the table top was waaaay too thick for the diameter. And to top it off he had a paduke top on a walnut bottom.
Legs held to pedestal with one giant screw stud per leg rather than sliding dovetail. It was used to hold the leg for alignment when glued with his signature Gorilla so now that I am verbalizing it maybe it is a good way to go about it. Creeped me out at the time. Not the traditional way though.
He does show how to turn the top and a way to sculpt the edge on the bandsaw.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
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