Wasn’t sure to post this under tools or joinery the cafe, or here. After all these years I’m finally getting ’round to making a pair of round side tables. This led to a big decision on how to make the aprons. My first instinct was bent laminations, but thought I’d try something new (to me). So I went with the hexagonal approach and will bandsaw and trammel rout them round. Another first – loose tenons were in order for every other joint. The butt mitres will be sawn out for the legs. Sheesh another jig to make. So I had to figure out how to cut the mortises for the loose tenons. I like the multi-router, but $1,500 is too steep so I made my own version. David Marks eat your heart out :).
John O’Connell – JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The board won’t let me upload pictures right now. I’ll try later. How do I get a hold of an administrator.
The more things change …
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Edited 5/9/2005 11:21 pm ET by ELCOHOLIC
Replies
RE: <<"How do I get a hold of an administrator.">>
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"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
I'd be interested to see what you came up with. I've been an advocate of horizontal slot mortisers for the last twenty years and have been collecting info on every type of slot mortiser and other options since then. Were you aware of the Grizzly G0540 and it's simple modifiction by putting some loctite on the chuck spindle and you have a servicable slot mortiser for well under $400?
I looked at the slot mortiser at their site, and I'm wondering why you would have to LocTite the spindle?
Have you seen one in person? I like the idea of the 3450 RPM. Don't have to listen to a screaming router. Could use HSS end mills.
Because the spindle is a jacobs tapers and the lateral forces will have a tendency to loosen the chuck. Haven't seen one in person but have talked to a few local folks who are using them successfully. Commercial mortisers run in that rpm and the idea of using it as a doweling machine and horizontal borer increases it usefulness. Funny thing is Grizzly was just making a low budget doweler and didn't even see the ramifications of a slot mortiser. It would be worth the money even if it didn't come with a motor.
On the intriductory end would be the homemade one featutred in the latest FWW Shops and Tools. Next would be the one featured in FWW #141...slick!
Then would be the Grizzly G0540.
Next is the Matchmaker in Woodworkers Supply
Next up is the Robland/Laguna...around $600 and add in a router and making a stand. Basically it's mortiser off a combo machine.
Next up would be the Rojek at $1,600 or so.
Maybe someday I'll complile the definitive slot mortiser compendium.
I have the Grizzly. It does do as advertised. I have not had much chance to use it, but when I got it I tested on various pieces and it performed well. I use a whiteside spiral bit and it did ok, but due to the slower speed (3450), you have to be sure to take it slow and not attempt to take a big chunck at a time. I don't think it would be practicle in a production shop, but Im a hobbyist, so the speed does not matter to me.
We use center cutting 2 flute HSS spiral end mills rated for machining aluminum and it's in a production set up. Works great and inexpensive to buy endmills as well as to resharpen.
I was told this was the case that E-mills would work. Where do you purchase them? Secondly, just curious, but do you do a full depth cut on each end and then remove the center material, or do you do full side to side passes removing a small amount as you go?
Endmills are easy to find. http://www.mcmaster.com http://www.mscdirect.com http://www.wttool.com http://www.use-enco.com For the smaller sizes it's a wash between sharpening and tossing. HSS will last a few hundred mortises easily. Most of the time I plunge in a 1/4" or so and go side to side as I advance the depth. Certain applications I plunge the full depth and clean up side to side. Center cutting endmills will plunge.
It's looking better all the time, as I do a lot of face frame mortising, and the router set-up is time consuming. How is the table action, and is supporting long 4/4 stock for end-mortising a pain? Where do you get your HSS endmills? I usually use Whiteside bits.
Thanks again for your information.
A support stand is fine for the long pieces. We have an industrial Griggio so it's a lot beefier. See FWW #174 Shop and Tools page 178 for a simple mortiser you can make. The one pictured is from FWW #141. Haven't made it myself but a friend made one similar one a few years before the article and it worked surprisingly well.
How's the table action? Much slop? Did you LocTite the bits or not?
Thanks for the info.
Table action is smooth, no slop that I detected in my limited use so far, and I did not use any loc-tite. It is advertised as a horizontal boring machine. I figured for the 300 I paid it was worth a chance. My biggest concern was the squareness of the bit to the table, but it was fine. I would like the bit to turn at router speads, but it will get the job done and at a nifty price. I was surprised to see a production shop using it though. Oh well if it does the job and cheap nothing wrong with that.
Check out the spec sheet. They're calling it a boring machine and a "basic mortiser."
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=g0540
Let me know when you use it some more, and what you think then.
Thanks again.
Interesting. This language add is new! When I bought mine, it was not there. It was only listed as a HB machine. Hey if I was selling a machine that the customer was using for a different purpose and was doing well, I would add it to description too. It was the second cheapest slot mortiser I could find. Pat warner has jig on his site that was my second choice.
Sorry to butt in Rick, I have a Kity woodworking machine which includes a horizontal slot morticer, the morticer is organized in such a way that it uses a slot morticing bit in a chuck on the end of the jointer spindle. The chuck rotates clockwise and therefore the mortice cutter rotates in the opposite direction to normal router cutters. Do you klnow of any organization which provides a source of these type of cutters? By the way, Kity is a French firm which has been producing woodworking machinery for a long while but I have never seen it referred to in this forum
Many thanks John
If your belt is accessable, loosen the adjustment, twist the belt, and the cutter will turn the correct direction...if you have enough slack.
Left hand endmills are available. I'm familiar with Kity as I do peruse the UK mags at the local big box bookstores. You might try contacting Rojek as they sell the European mortising bits which will run in either direction. I would expect Kity to sell the tooling for their machines. Kity isn't really available in the states so you wouldn't see any mention of the brand. You might look in the UK and Australian forums for more likely sources. I do have some sources for the Euro mortise bits but they are located in the states.
many thanks for the info Rick, I will follow up the Rojek line etc.
Woodsy
Rick,
Before I say anything, yes I admit, you are correct and I'm wrong.
I have tried a big 3phase slot mortise machine in a friends shop, using end mills designed for Aluminum and made some floating tenons, but it's not for me.
My hollow chisel is quicker (excluding cutting the tenons) and I was taught way back that a mortise and tenon joint should be a neat snug "tap" fit and it should be pinned. The pins show the craftsmanship and the glue is just thrown in as insurance.
It's kind of like comparing a good bottle of 10 year old red wine, with something you just buy at the grocery store.
Edited 5/13/2005 4:27 pm ET by Jellyrug
I thought it was the other way around. The pins are just insurance for when the glue fails.But my experience is with chairs and those M&T's or floating M&T's are stressed so much in tension and compression that I pin just to be safe.As far as the difference between floating tenons and standard mortise and tenon I think its more like the difference between canola oil and sunflower oil. Slots aren't pocket screws after all! ;) Both are very strong joints, I think FWW documented that at some point. I don't see how a chisel mortiser could be faster but I guess if you get good on one system it would be close. Takes about fifteen to twenty seconds to cut a mortise with a Multi-router, and if you have compound angles then it really makes a difference. Very fast to set up.Its how fast a MR does tenons that really opens the gap. I don't know of a faster way to cut tenons. (other than a fully automatic tenoner) Fifteen-twenty seconds each again.To each his own.
It's kind of like comparing a good bottle of 10 year old red wine, with something you just buy at the grocery store.
Gee I sort of like my old Thunderbird wine!
I bet you wouldn't get much life out of the Grizzly. You'll be putting alot of side load on the bearings using it as a mortiser. I'm sure they have a thrust bearing to take the drilling load, but the side load will kill it quickly. It's still not a bad deal, but I would put on a vertical plate on the back and mount a plunge router on it.
Rich
I wouldn't worry about the bearings. I'm willing to bet they are not even thrust bearings, just regular bearings. If you look at routers, they only use a standard bearing and take plenty of lateral forces. I spent a number of years repairing power tools for a dealer so I got to see what goes inside all the tools we all use...all use regular grade bearings until you get into shapers, moulders and pin routers. For what the Grizzly G0540 costs it would still be worth the money if it came with no motor. Personally I prefer the slot mortiser to run in the 3,600 rpm range to use it as a drill as well. My background is more with the commecrcial slot mortisers plus I'd rather not hear the whine of a router any more than necessary.
Besides the side load isn't that great. Typically I run the mortise cut 1/4" deep as I move it side to side. The commercial slot mortisers often have a direct drive motor and the bearings are nothing special on the ones I've taken apart.
Edited 5/16/2005 2:06 pm ET by rick3ddd
You better take another look at David Marks web page:
http://www.djmarks.com/multirouter.asp
According to what I just saw it's $2695 - even HIGHER than you thought, if you can get it for $1500 that's a good deal!!
Dave in Tampa
Oops! I must have got it mixed up with somthing else. $2700 is just plane nuts.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Did you ever get your photos to work? I'm interested in your solution.
I cobbled together an alternative using an X-Y table from an Inca saw and a router. Work OK, but I will still buy a MR someday. I've used them professionally and am sold.
But it does seem they could be a lot cheaper, like half-price. But its their idea and a good product.
However I keep thinking someone must be making a hobby CNC milling kit that could be modified to do what an MR does.
Still couldn't attach files at home as of last night. Nor did I get a response from the forum email address. No problem at work though. Well this is my 1st attempt and although crude it did cut very accurate mortises and was built in a couple of hours with scrap. I just used a pair of short K bodies on the rails for stops and went at it. I think with some surplus linear bearings. Drill rod and some 1/2" aluminum plate I could make a very serviceable and accurate slot mortiser for a whole lot less than aMulti-Router.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
And here is my version.The shop where I used to work had an old Inca table saw with the mortising attachment sitting in storage gathering dust. Someone had given it to them in partial payment for a job they had done. Belonged to a doctor. Anyway I saw the value right away. I think I paid $150 for it. Removed the mortiser, sold the saw. Plan on adding a Z-axis with hardened chrome shaft and bronze bearing pillow blocks. But not with the setup shown, I'll rebuild the jig when I do that.Anyway it works pretty well. Just use Inca cam clamps to hold the stock. Didn't dig them out but they're just cam-lever hold downs.Works pretty well, needs dust collection.But I will use it to make the money to get a multi-router. I still think they are worth it after using them in a production shop. Especially with air clamps. Very fast.
Nice. Too bad you had to spend the $150 to get it. Otherwise you could afford better beer ;)John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Ha! Its early summer here in Kansas, hot and muggy. So 'tis the season for light and crisp. Mix it with lemonade and beat the heat! We call them "trailer-park Radler" The English call it Shandy I think. Newcastle's pretty tasty, if you're ever in the Pacific NW; do yourself a favor and try some Obsidian Stout or Full Sail Amber. You won't regret it.BTW I sold the Inca for $550. ;)Cheers.
Edited 5/12/2005 10:34 pm ET by adastra
NOT BAD AT ALL! Nice work..
I like that little beadlock jig for loose mortises. It is very adaptable.
I tried to borrow a little from every shop built version I saw, here is mine (results will just have to be in a follow up! fridge is out of Texas Longnecks).
I built the router carriage mounted on drill rod with bronze bushings, the locks (in the carriage-a photo) are 1/4" wing nuts that press on a nylon slug. The nylon slug then clamps to the drill rod.
Steve
So does your carriage have free travel in the Z-axis? (up and down, I hope thats right)If so, did you counterweight? Curious as I haven't done my Z movement yet. I was planning on using hardened chrome shaft and bronze bushings. Same idea I think.
It travels along the Z axis using a threaded lead screw. So I would say it is not free travel. I am using a Trend Tenon jig to cut mortices so really didn't think about needing floating Z travel.
regards - Steve
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