What is the best way to layout for a mortise? I will then cut the mortise with mortise machine. Thanks for any help.
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Replies
Uh, with a pencil?
Did I win anything? ;-)
Seriously, I'm not sure what you're asking. Wanna clarify?
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, A
I agree with John. Also once you mark your mortise location you can scribe the line with a knife in greater accuracy is needed. But a pencil (sharp or mechanical) will do just great since all your set up will then be repeated on the machine.
Adam
Laying the mortises out with a pencil guided by a combination square will be adequate for machine work since most of the accuracy will come from the fence and stop settings on the mortiser.
John White
Do I need to make sure all my faces are against the fence or all my faces are away from the fence? I don't want my stiles and rails to be off set. Thanks Kelly Handwerk.
Thanks to all for your info.Kelly Handwerk
One of the basic rules of woodworking is that all work is laid out by measuring off of a reference face on the stock. You would designate two sides and one end of each leg as the reference surfaces in this case. On a table with a tenoned in apron, the reference surfaces would normally be the out facing sides of each leg. You would measure all of your mortise locations off of those surfaces and then clamp down the legs so that the reference surface is against the fence when you make the mortise.Done this way, all of the mortises will be the exact same distance in from the outer face of the legs, even if the legs aren't quite equal in dimension. Then, if you make the tenons on the apron accurately, the tenons should also be referenced off the side of the apron facing out, the fit between the legs and the apron will match on all four legs.John White
Pencil will work, but if you're cutting through tenons I'd still knife the endlines on the outside edge so they'll look really clean (even though you cut from both sides toward the middle).
All,
What ever happened to the marking guage? I wouldn't fiddle fart around juggling a square and pencil to draw two parallel lines.
Just me.
Ray
I wouldn't mark anything but the endlines, would you? Maybe a dash for a center mark for alignment but that's about it. Not much need for the cheek marks.
When you are laying out for a mortising machine, you only need one lengthwise line, and the two end points, on the first piece for doing the set up. On all of the remaining pieces you will probably only need one end point, the stops and the fence will handle everything else.
John W.
John, and Boss,
Well, I usually lay out the whole mortise, unless it's a big run of multiples. Why, you ask?
1) Easier to find center of an edgewise piece (like a door stile) if the cheek lines are laid out from both edges. You can then center the bit between the parallel lines, or split the difference.
2) that crumb of a shaving ejected from the bit, that you didn't notice was holding the workpiece away from the fence, is more apparent with guidelines present.
3) ditto the one piece of stock that is inexplicably out of square, throwing the mortise almost a s'teenth away from where you want it.
4) layout lines are more "authentic" on a reproduction
5) faster for me to lay out a stack of parts (4 legs) than to bother with stop blocks and spacers. Unless it's a run of multiples.
6) most importantly, it's a habit of mine to do so, and I'm too old to change now.
Your mileage, as they say...
Ray
Is it legitimate to then transfer the mortise on a through tenon joint as you would the tails onto the pin board for through dovetails? What I've seen seems to recommend laying both halves of the joint out separately, but it seems to me that if you want the same accuracy as a dovetail you should cut the mortise, and then use it to mark the tenon.
Am I on the right track?
Thanks,
---Pedro
Pedro,
In terms of using a marking guage to lay out the joint, yes. If you are wanting the faces of the mortised member and the one with the tenon to be flush, as a door frame, you would use the same setting on the guage to lay out both the mortise and the tenon. If you have run all your stock thru a thickness planer at the same time, it is safe enough to guage from both faces toward the center, yielding a centered joint. Alternatively, if there is any question of vatiation in stock thickness (as in a table leg to apron joint) or if the joint for any reason (allowance for the thickness of a molding around a frame, panel setback, etc) is offset from the center of the stock, all references should be made only from the "show" face of the materials
It isn't practical to scribe the tenon's location using the mortise as a guide, as, (1) most mortises are blind :-0 and (2) through mortises are often so deep as to make accurate scribing difficult.
Ray
Hi Ray,
Thanks for your reply. Of course I'm only talking about through mortises as that is what I'm using on my current project. In this case the mortise is 7/8" deep, so it seems that using it to mark the tenon just as I would for a dovetail makes sense. But if I'm reading you correctly this is the exception, in general everything should be marked using a marking gauge set at a constant setting for both mortise and tenon and always referencing off the side which will be visible most of the time.
I think I understand, thank you.
---Pedro
Well, it seems like me and Ray are the only turkeys that use a marking gauge (actually I call it a mortising gauge) for this.
Seems like the most convenient and reliable way. In addition to what Ray has said: 1)you only have to mark one piece, be it a work piece or test piece .2)The gauge leaves incised parallel lines along the grain-easy to see when lining up the hollow chisel, helps the chisel start the cut and get centred correctly and 3)no messing with rulers pencils measuring etc-you just transfer the width of the mortice right off of that hollow chisel, so to to speak.
So I think use of a mortice gauge is the best way and I prefer to use a test piece for the first one: preferably from an offcut from the same leg stock or whatever is to be mortised. If the mortice is to be in the centre then this is convenient for any small adjustments,(flip end for end) and for use as a test piece when cutting the tenons.
That mortice gauge...Philip Marcou
Sir Philip,
Seems like coachk's approach works only for machine-made mortises, and your approach works with a machine and also if you're doing these bad boys by hand. Which way do you do them?
---Pedro
Pedro,
I do them painlessly by machine. Same for tenons,using shaper with sliding table.Philip Marcou
Ah yes. I'm still going through my stubborn everything-by-hand phase. Just chopped out 16 mortises by hand this morning with my new Ray Iles chisel. That thing is more of a polearm than a chisel. Works great though. The tip is a bit skewed, but that doesn't seem to matter. When I get home I'm going to smooth the four legs for the shelf unit using this marvelous new smoother I have :) Then it's on to cutting the tenons on the shelves. I'll post pictures when I'm done with this new project so everyone can critique and aid my ongoing education.
---Pedro
Well it pays to know how to do it by hand- in fact I think it is necessary to learn to work wood by hand first before using machines, but masochism is the domain of some humans (;)
Bring on the pictures of w.i.p.
I am off to work now.Philip Marcou
I use a marking gauge for this all the time. We're mearly giving advice on the subject at hand. He asked, we answered. Simple as that. I use an old Veritas wheel gauge given to me by a fellow student years ago. Works great. I wouldn't want to be without it, FYI.
Adam
Adam,
Are you using a marking gauge or a mortice gauge for mortice layout? I just want to clarify this point.Philip Marcou
Hi philip,
I know you were asking adam, but I'll throw in my .02 worth. I use both a marking guage, and a mortise guage, depending on the application. For instance, if I want to center the mortise, and the stock is consistant in thickness, I'll frequently use a marking guage, referencing from both faces of the stock. Otherwise, I mostly use a mortise guage. I have two, one is left set up with the spacing between the points at 5/16"-- the size mortise I most often use. The other I set and reset the points as needed for other size mortises.
Ray
Morning Ray and Phillip..
I use a mortise gauge and a marking gauge also as drawing the long grain lines with only a pencil is sometimes off. A pencil will not always follow a straight edge on a square. It has a tendency to follow the grain. So... the mortise gauge to make the precise mark and then drag it with a very sharp pencil so old eyes can see it.
I use the marking gauge to mark the cross grain. And it probably should be pointed out what the difference is in the two for clarification as I went for several years not knowing. A seminar by Tage Frid back in the late 70's turned on the light finally.
For those that don't know: a mortise gauge has two pins with a point used on long grain. The pins are set to the width of the mortise and referenced off the gages' fence. Most mortise gauges have a 3rd pin on the back-side for versatility, but it also is a great way to prick yourself and little use.. so just grind it off. ha.. ha...
A marking gauge has one cutter which is a blade and used to slice across grain. A slice is needed on cross grain as the pins will tear fiber. Again, I will scribe it with a pencil after I cut the line to see it better.
And I also do as Ray and mark both sides of the mortise and the ends. If you have a mortise machine you know that not all mortise chisels are "not" equal. Measure your 3/8" or 5/16" with a mic and see if it is 3/8" or 5/16" respectively. And if it is.. let me know what brand and I will get some. :>)
Again.. I use both lines to reference as Ray.. as the true mortise marks can be split in difference if there is a discrepancy between true lay-out and actual width of the chisel head. And from what I have found.. you can just about take it to the bank even though even that seems a bit risky these days. ha.. ha...
Ray and Phillip know the basics, but IMO I think that the new amateur (an I am most definitely an amateur.. especially compared to these two guys) WW's coming on the scene today are lulled into by-passing the basics with the purchase of the newer, very technological machines that take thinking out of the process to a degree. At least in advertising hype but not necessarily in real truth, IMO.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 1/25/2008 9:48 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
"Ray and Phillip know the basics" Give that kudo to philip. I'm the only person on the face of the Earth who thinks a mortising attachment on a drill press can do a perfectly adequate job of making rectangular holes. So what do I know?
And maybe this should be in the woodworking terms thread, but your definition of a marking guage (blade vs point) sounds like a cutting (or slitting) guage to me... I learnt that marking guage (1) is the generic term for all instruments of that ilk, or (2) had one point (or wheel), and mortise guage had a pair, combination guage has all three. As long as I know what I mean when I'm talking to myself, though, it's all right.
Retrogradedly yours,
Ray
And cutting gauge would be correct also, I think as long as you know the difference. I "learnt" marking gauge with the knife from that old Frid guy and latter from Ian Kirby when he had his school about 13 miles up the road in Cummings, Georgia.
But.. in retrospect... I also "learnt" from that Jones character (the one that travels aka as Sgain Dubh), that them European "boys" like to drink that burnt motor oil beer and pull us dumb southern "boys" legs just to have a little fun. So.. they could have lied all along just to trip me up.
After our conversation, I think I will go put a piece of masking tape on my gauges and hand write.. Festool knife gauge and Festool pin gauge on them to gain a little esteem and try to keep things organized to a point I don't become confused over which is which. ha.. ha...
Have a good day Ray and hope to find you and family well...
Highest Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 1/25/2008 4:00 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Hi Sarge,
My go-to guy on tool ?'s is Salaman, he of the Dictionary of Tools fame, who,I believe is also a Brit. Who knows what effects that dark motor oil textured beer has on tool nomenclature? I'll let you know, later, if I can remember the question... Hah h..urp.
Forget the masking tape. I wrote it right on the rosewood shaft, with red paint.
Doing fine, thanks. After a coronary, any day spent above ground, is a good one.
Take care,
Ray
Was not aware of the coronary, Ray. I had a stent put in a leg artery over a year ago.. Fortunatley the heart arteries were OK.. at the moment anyway. Hey.. watch those fried "fat-back" biscuits! :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Hi Sarge,
I thought I was paying attention to the amt of fat in my diet before, but am a lot more careful now. Makes the sausage gravy more of a treat, when you make a conscious decision of how often you will have it, and how many biscuits you will slather it onto.
One eye opener for me in cardio rehab, was discovering that once you have had a blockage in a coronary artery, you are at risk for others in legs, neck, etc. not just heart.
Take care,
Ray
Yep.. once at risk, it could pop up anywhere. I weight the same as HS and not a pound of fat. But.. my dad died in 1959 with blocked arteries as they didn't have the procedures then they do now. He was not a pound over-weight either.
They have me on a cholesterol management program where I have to keep LDL (bad) under 65 and raise HDL (good). Tri-cyclerides under 90. I hit it the first month and can we say, Hello... beans.. rice..potatoes.. veggies.. fish.. grains.. etc. The good news is I love it all as I grew up eating mainly vegetables raised in a rural setting.
Forget pizza.. omelets (love them).. cheese (could eat a pound a day).. steak.. pork.. and all the other things that one loves and it's no problem at all.. Life is so simple when you decide you want to wake up after you go to sleep. :>)
But... I do eat a hamburger steak (extreme lean) about every week-end and every two months when I do a cholesterol blood monitor that breaks into LDL and HDL and comes up great... Hello IHOP an International Omelet covered in Tabasco with ketchup on the side! Life is "good again"... for about 10 minutes and then "turn out the lights, the parties over". ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
I see. I just use the jolly mortice gauge because it incises the two lines at once, their distance apart having not been measured but taken from the actual hollow chisel at almost the lowest point.
The objective is to cut the mortice in the right place (central or otherwise), not to place layout lines/cuts somewhere.
I might appear to be splitting hairs or making a remote point, but for those of us who have cut a mortice "a bit off" (all) it will have relevance-hopefully.
Philip Marcou
philip,
Wish I had a dollar for every mortise that ended up a bit off, even locating them as carefully as I could. Splitting hairs is about how close you want to be, in setting that fence. But sometimes, the tenon ends up a skosh away from right on. That's what you make those luscious smoothing planes to take care of, correct?
Regards,
Ray
Seeing as my name's been dragged into this murky conversation, i'll join in and stir things around a bit.
Mortises I mark with a mortice gauge. A common mortice gauge has two adjustable pins in the arm to set the mortice width tenon thickness and a stock or fence to set the distance in from the face of the wood. This works for both morticed and the tenoned part. I'm pretty sloppy about the spelling of mortice, or mortise. For handwork I mark every mortice and tenon with this gauge along with the knife lines that determine shoulders, and marking gauge lines for haunches and the like.
For machine made M&T's I mark one of each part of the joint on, ideally, two extra parts machined to match the actual parts, but not always. I mark the length of the mortise with a 0.5 mm mechanical pencil for machine chopped mortices. The mortice usually needs to be a bit longer than the tenon width to allow for a bo'hair of axpansion and contraction. The wider the tenon the greater the tolerance needed in the mortice. I cut the mortices first and then make the tenon to suit-- standard practice.
Marking gauges have a single pin. Handy for marking things like rebates, the position of grooves and so on. Groove widths are mostly determined by the cutter used to work it, eg, a 9 mm router cutter cuts a 9 mm groove. The tongue on the mating piece is simply machined to match.
Cutting gauges have a knife in the arm and make marks across the grain. Useful for marking things like the shoulder line on dovetails.
Lastly, there's nowt wrong with sump oil type beer. A pint of diesel will suffice if the beer's run out. Unstented as of now, I'm afraid so I can't be a member of the chattering 'Stent Club'. classes. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
So... those Euro "boys" weren't pulling my leg. And I was on the verge of asking for my money back...
There is nothing wrong with the "sump oil" beer except, Ray and I both have beards. When that stuff over-flows your mouth that's where it ends up. And that requires we have to walk through a commercial car wash with those big brushes to tidy up for the lady folks before they allow us back in the house.
And we're not reserving a seat for you in the "Stent Club" as you probably won't require a member-ship. I have a strong feeling that if they did a blood monitor to check for cholesterol on you they would find very little trace of blood.
More than likely what they would find would be enough alcohol content in your veins that you could spend the night outside in approximately -300 degree temperatures and there would be no chance of your heart freezing and cracking the block.
Have a good day as I'm going on-line to invest in British diesel stock as I think I just got a "hot tip" on the possiblity of it rising in case of a brewery strike in Great Britain. ha.. ha...
Regards sir...
Sarge.. john t
You're not far off Sarge. The cholesterol stuff was checked for just a couple of weeks ago. They told me it was fine, and to come back when I'd got the proportion of blood to alcohol closer to normal. For some odd reason they reckoned 95% alcohol to 5% blood was a bit out. They reckoned it was hard to find enough blood to test for cholesterol.
I told them that some people are born a whisky or two short, but I wasn't one of those sad creatures, and I left in a bit of a huff. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I'm glad you don't have the problem that so many of us do have. Mine.. probably by heredity as it runs on my dad's side. My mom's side lives forever with the youngest of 12 passing at 93. I hope to make it somewhere between.
Life is short... beer taste good and makes you happy. It's full of malt which contains fiber. You got to have fiber if you want to make it through the short life. So.. what could be better than being happy and feeling good?
About the only thing left is physical exercise and we won't go where I would lead you with that. Just think of being happy and feeling good and you've got the answer that I feel certain you already know. And wear sunglasses to filter out the "red" glare that you might en-counter after dark. ha.. ha...
Highest regards from the colonies... that was to make Lataxe feel good!
Sarge..
Heck, you don't have to lay out anything. Just use the Domino and eyeball it.
:) Paul
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