Good Morning,
Have you ever thought about the accuracy acheived by some 18c craftsmen? How were they able to acheive these fruits of their labor or labour? Did they also chase the elusive .001 of an inch the sharpening fanatics seek? Are there teeth on a sharp blade? Mebbe they just got lucky? I mean they didn’t have Worksharp thangs, an MK-II, or the latest sharpening gew gaw.
Don’t all woodworkers think about these things, wake up in the middle of the night shouting Eureka, I’ve found it?
Time to tortur some more wood,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Replies
Bob,
You go off and "torture wood" while leaving the rest of us to wrestle with the imponderables you have posed. Thanks a lot!
Frosty
"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Frosty,
I know, that was kinda mean. Hey, did you ever have to go pee right in the middle of a glueup?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"Hey, did you ever have to go pee right in the middle of a glueup?"
Not all of us are as old as you, Bob.
-Steve
>gotta go right in the middle of a glueup?That is how the QuickClamp got popularhttp://shop1.actinicexpress.co.uk/shops/Jandsfasteners/images/catalog/15l-5.jpgThey started out small and short( : )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 4/27/2009 10:06 pm by roc
Edited 4/27/2009 10:56 pm by roc
Bob,
There are many uses for a jubilee clip and you have just discovered another - although plenty lads have got there afore ye and some come to enjoy the experience so much they buy a boxful, of assorted sizes. (Or so I have heard).
Don't forget to take the screwdriver with you when you eventually head for the bog'ole otherwise there might be a bad case of bladderwreck. Need I say, wash your hands - beforehand, if you have been gluing, as well as after. A&E departments down at the hospital enjoy a laugh but why should it be at your expense?
Lataxe, a urologist.
Only once! That occasion was brought on by a very complicated glue-up with polyurethane. Everything was sticky with foam. (Except my privates which I dast not touch for fear of * * *).Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
OK Bob,
Time for a bit of a not so tall tale: About ten years ago or so, I was finishing the installation of kitchen cabinets in a kitchen addition to our home. One evening I was fitting and then gluing the cherry veneer to the front of the island. I had just coated the island front and veneer with contact adhesive when I received a telephone call. It was my dear wife who was frantic. She was at the grocery store with her brand spanking new Acura and one of our daughters. She came out of the store and claimed the new car was gone! Stolen! Vanished! Anyhow, she demanded I come to the store RIGHT NOW! I explained to her to call the police and that I had just glued the cherry veneer, but she screamed again RIGHT NOW! So I did as I always do - scream back that I had just glued up the panel, and then dutifully left for the grocery store.
When I got there, there was my wife and daughter in front of the store, with the police just leaving. I went over and asked if that was our car parked out there in the lot. She said yes it was and that she forgot we got a new one and that she was looking for the old one.
Rushed back home and fortunately didn't lose that much time to affect the contact adhesive, as it worked fine to apply the fully dried veneer. Also, we don't talk about the "stolen car fiasco" at our house.
T.Z.
Referring to the comments about the quality of "ancient steel":Some years back the president of the ASBC (American Society of brewing Chemists) had this to say during the inaugural speech at a Quality Seminar:"All memories of past glories should be discounted by at least fifty percent."
Tony,
Good one!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
At least you can see your nethers. mine are now an abdominal organ.
Birthday yesterday. Nice supper and all. Wake up at 5:45 look outside 4 inches of heavy wet snow. Roll over wake up at 7 still snow not a bad dream?? Wife has to drive i hour to work she is not smiling. I feel like some one hit me with a stick (metric or imperial) they all hurt.Clean snow off truck drive to work. Electricials didn't show up. Plumbers did not show up. I am on a 15 ft ladder shaking and sweating sanding drywall. I'm thinking what is wrong here.Eat lunch feel like Re fried dog poop decide to go home. Lay on couch for a nap and have cat jump on the nethers. Get up, sweat shake as nessecary. Wonders why I feel like heck. Ahh the stick that was beating me was hand planed on two sides, and ran through a planer for two sides. Therefore a Bi stick.
Why could they do it the old way? they didn't have to pay the teenagers, cel phone, ipod, internet and long distance. I need a nap, I have no energy to flip a switch, pick up a plane or even walk to the shop.
I sincerely hope you feel better soon. You mentioned that you felt like refried dog poop. You haven't been to Mexico lately have you?
Also curiously enough there was no mention of an attitude either. You really must be under the weather as they are wont to say.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Shoe,
I notice your remark, "Birthday yesterday. Nice supper and all".
Now, a birfday boy often goes over the top a bit when it comes to cake and grog. How much ice cream did you have with that cake and did you remember to enumerate the glasses of grog tossed down, not to mention the index of their proofness? It is all too easy to overload one's fud-processor and grog-cracker, then the headache comes; and perhaps also the lower safety valve operates with alarming efficiency.
As to the snow - please keep it and the cold air that makes it, as we do not want it over this side of the pond, where Spring has sprung most nicely and the air is filled with birdsong, the sweet smell of blossom and a ton of bluddy birch pollen making me sneeze my heed off.
Finally, do not cause the cat to leave the nethers too quickly as the rascals have the habit of seeking leap-purchase by inserting their claws into the softer parts or even the vital ones. I will not disrobe via a jpeg, as you yourself are wont to do, to show my own cat-scar on the nether. Also, I have no modesty-fish.
Lataxe, currently suffering from a minor lower-rot caused by far too much time on the rock 'ard bicycle saddle just lately.
Edited 4/29/2009 8:17 am ET by Lataxe
I did watch the intake of Grog as to not fall asleep and miss the "birthday Present". No ice cream. and no trips to Mexico. I am leaving the 18 year old single malt for the weekend.We have a trio of Feline rodent protection so claw awarness lives here. I really like when you open the bedroom door and step on a dead mouse, a good way to start the day.As for the modisty fish, I am still waiting for my used pencil, and the calander to be published.
Just listening to the radio and more snow/rain for next two days, Heavy snow warning for parts south of here. This winter is just not going away, maybe cabin fever is setting in!
Uncle Bobby Boy ,
Yes , I have pondered the same thoughts .
Heck , we can barely do the same thing with all our fancy motorized equipment , how'd they do that back then to the fine degree they did ?
The answers are many but in general the way I learned it as well was the apprentice learned from the floor up .I learned to sharpen almost first thing , chisels , plane irons then hand saw and circular saw blade teeth setting and all.
That took me about a year , I know I'm a slow learner , then you need to learn to draw , for me that was the hardest part not being naturally artistic I learned to copy what I saw and figured out how to put it on paper .
The work ethics taught and the acceptable level of craftsmanship were not dictated by the clock , quality had no time limits then .
In making matching woodwork for older homes I have seen some things that really made you wonder how could they do that , well not as complicated as the making of the Great Pyramids this work was performed by highly dedicated skilled workers , imo the attitude and work ethics of today are a far cry from that of yesterday in general .
I think that in part is why to this day skilled and dedicated workers stay in demand .
regards dusty, graduate of PNW school of hard knocks
I often wonder the same but sometimes I think about todays woodworker and how much he/she can do with little or no skill and call it done!
Skills with hand tools cannot be replaced but lots of folks that work in cabinetry shops and such have 0 skills with hand tools. They let the CNC do all the work! A
ll they have to do is assembly, and even that's a no brainier (everythings labelled)
Chaim
D,
I see you have the "anti not-me" proclivity. This attitude automatically condemns 99.99999999% of other folk, which seems unfortunate.
Do you know anything about CNC and the necessary skills to program/operate one or are you just hissing off a bit of vitriol through your nether?
I see also that you class all woodworkers ("today's woodworkers") who don't use handtools into one lumpen mass of hignorant CNCers. Ah ha! This tends to give away the paucity of your other contentions and proposals concerning "today's woodworkers". Here is a revelation - there are many different sorts!!
Back to making olde wooden planes in an obssesive fashion for you, I think, before thoughts of modern practices and their un-rightness cause you a brain-blot or some other dangerous organ-fizzle. ;->
Lataxe, the epitome of tolerance hisself (except for intolerant lads).
I think you misunderstood what I meant!
Believe me I use power tools I would even use a CNC unit if I had one. I only meant that a lot of the people working in today's modern shops have no clue as to the ins and outs of wood working. They fulfill a function like layout, cutting and assembly, the art of the work itself is lost on them only the function remains. I did not mean to imply this of the home hobbyist.
I've seen many examples of your fine work you posted here! You can't tell me you don't benefit from the knowledge of hand tool use (even when working with machines)
As for my condemnation of 99.99999999% of woodworkers I can honestly put myself in the "still much to learn" group! which includes making comments that can be easily misunderstood.
Chaim
Edited 5/2/2009 4:20 pm by chaim
C,
I wondered where you were. :-)
Well, I suppose that the unfortunates caught up as wage slaves in furniture production shops are no different to the poor souls caught up in other modern production facilities. They are cogs in a production-line machine. I blame that Henry Ford.
But is it not the case, as you mention in fact, that there are many, many folk not content with that kind of cog-life? Some are woodworkers doing the end-to-end production and even a bit of the design, rather than drilling the same three holes in a piece of MDF 700 times a day. Perhaps this holistic work ethic is even a growing trend; and not just amongst the hobbyists (lucky lads that we are, being free to indulge ourselves in muses of every kind an' all). Designer-makers are legion out there, albeit some do more making than designing.
***
It's also true that I've personally learnt a lot from being handtoolised by Knots influences. On the other hand, I learnt a lot, before getting to that happy state, about machine-tool production. All is grist to the mill - although I confess that a CNC thang doesn't really attract just now (but that's just me).
***
Perhaps I leap up too readily to bite a chap who might be doing the handtool snobbery thang. In truth, I am one myself but since I'm ashamed of the condition I try to hide it. And I do believe (quite fervently) that there is a lot of skill and knowledge required to make machine tools produce good furniture, such that I have come to abhor that handtool fetishism, even when I am a-one meself.
Lataxe, who likes all woodworkers to be in the clubhouse.
Lataxe , Chaim ,
The hand tool crowd who shames the machine tool workers are full of themselves and are not really fooling us anymore .
I , the most dependent on machines have questioned a few of the crowd who is indeed talented and use hand tool methods for much of what they do .
Without exception even our hand tool makers of fine reproductions and such have told us they do run the stock through the thickness planer and of course they rip the stock on the TS to get the stock ready and saves much time .
Then they take out the hand tools and create , well you need both in most cases I have tried to only use machines to create pieces but in reality even I use a block plane and chisel as well as many more hand tools once I started to notice .
In all forms of occupations you have bored workers and I agree most folks do not love the job they do , we who enjoy and earn a living at doing are lucky .
The CNC thang is a whole other animal , and has been mentioned in today's larger modern commercial shops the workers really need fewer skills then in a smaller shop where the more you can do the farther you will go .Being computer literate and knowing how to program , run , and integrate custom operations into the program of a CNC will keep you in demand .
regards dusty,old school boxmaker sans cnc
I'm installing CNC in my shop, but the 3-fingered pincer hand doesn't always grip the hand planes correctly. ;-)
I can personal attest to the fact that it is faster and (for me) more accurate to thickness stock through a planer.
Not always so for my jointer as it takes to much tinkering on really long boards! (its bed is too short)
I also like to resaw on my 14" bandsaw but it obviously has some limitations (only 6" of resaw capacity). Until recently I had many problems with this saw! (a no name Taiwanese model) I thought it was the saw or blades or both and now I'm sure it is mostly the blades but the saw is still far from perfect. I don't own a bow saw nor would it ever replace the bandsaw as I don't relish the thought of that much hand sawing!
I enjoy working with hand tools but they are not always the most expedient tools for the job and time is money. Sometimes I find hand tools are faster, better or the only alternative for the job at hand.
Mostly allot of my cheaper hand tools exasperate me to the point of exhaustion and therefor I made some of my own.
My shop is small by most standards so large industrial models are off limits to me (for the time being)
Getting back to the origins of the thread, Looking at allot of the 17th century work it definitely has a show side and they put most of their skill and effort where it would be seen!
Chaim
Bob: It does make you wonder about the 18c craftsman heading to the barber for a shave every couple of weeks (whether he needed it or not). Do you think the barber tried to cut hairs on his forearm prior to attacking his victim's beard. It may be that those guys knew steel and sharp. My understanding is that in this modern day we still can't replicate the qualities of some steel from some made hundreds of years ago. More stuff to ponder while torturing wood and whiskers...
Randy
Bob, here in New Mexico, we have a secret that dates back to the Anasazi woodworkers, well known for their sub-.001 accuracy in woodworking. (Unfortunately, none of the wooden furniture has surviced to support the reputation, however.)
Anyway, if you take a New Mexico brown field mouse, and give it an afro-style perm, the fur is equivalent to about 8-ought steel wool. Great for cutting gloss on a finish, or stropping the obsidian blades (can't call 'em "irons") of smoothing planes. That, and an arrow board (shooting boards came much later), and you can get the accuracy down to less than .00l".
Ralph,
You may be on to a quantum leap in wood finishing. If you can train a herd (flock, school, pack?) of those New Mexican field mice with Afro-perms to run up and down a workpiece they could probably put a mirror finish on rough lumber overnight.
As a side benefit, their droppings would probably work as good or better than Forestgirl's chicken poop in creating a faux antique finish.
GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Ah--the famous "Hanta" finish!Ron
Yes, it has a hanta-ing luster.
Edited 4/29/2009 9:30 am by RalphBarker
Ralph,
One question and is meant as a complement too: Are you related to Andy Rooney?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
No relation to Andy Rooney, but I appreciate the compliment.
Ralph,
This is kinda like a bunch of old pharts sittin around the stove chewin the fat.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
'Round these parts, we chew on Roadrunner jerky, and sip tequila while engaging in intellectual conversation. ;-)
Does being compared to Andy Rooney constitute a compliment?
-Steve
In my book it does, since I appreciate his style of humor/satire.
Bob,
Sometimes you would think we crafting high tolerance turbine parts rather than wood. Oh machine A is .001 off on this plane but only .0000001 on the other.
My grandfather wan't 18th C, but he was a talented man who spent his life in southeastern Saskatchewan. He had to quit school in Grade 3 because they couldn't afford shoes. Not the most exciting place on the planet, but in his 100 years of life he managed to not only teach himself how to play the violin and cello, but he made his instruments, and for his 10 children. The last time I visited him was in the late 60's. He finally had an electric scroll saw.
He wasn't in a hurry, took the time to do it right +/- whatever he thought was needed.
I loved the glue up thought......
Don
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