My wife and I are doing some fairly major work on our house this summer–relatively speaking.
I’m going to install hardwood flooring throughout the first floor (somewhere less than 800sq. ft.) and built-in book cases in one room.
I’ve done a fair amount of work over the years with my trusty lower-end Craftsman circular saw and my $120 Craftsman table saw (my second $120 Craftsman TS–I burned out the first one).
This time, DW wants the jobs done quickly, efficiently, and is willing to make an investment. In other words, I have authorization to buy some new tools.
So here’s the question: if you were going to install hardwood flooring and build built-ins, what “saw” tools would you use? The built-ins will be plywood, painted. A miter saw for the flooring? A Craftsman “zip code” saw?
I believe her words were to the effect of, “Can you buy a good table saw for less than $1,000?”
Replies
Everyone's methods are different, but I tend to use my table saw for 99% of my saw cuts. For very long boards like molding, and possibly flooring, I use a CMS. For $1000, you could probably get both saws, but I'd put the bulk of the budget and research into the TS, then would try pick up a decent deal on a modest CMS with the balance.
If you have 220v, the Grizzly G1023SL 3hp left tilt cabinet saw is on sale for $1075 shipped. That's an amazing saw for the price, but would blow your budget in a hurry....still food for thought.
You could certainly find a good used saw within budget, and get both types.
Well, flooring I would say the miter would be the trick because your cutting small stuff and you can easily pick it up and move it, but thats where the advantage ends in my opinion. The versatility of a good TS is much better. I have the Grizzly 1023slx and love it. I paid a little more than a grand but that was because I wanted the 7' rails. That same saw with a shorter rail is under a grand. Right now Grizzly has a 10" 3hp with riving knife and long rails for $1,295 with free shipping and a 10" 3hp with regular rails $1,075 free shipping. Hard to beat. Cut miters, rip, cut ply anything. Overall best there is is a TS. Thats my opinion and that and $1.75 might just get you a cup of Joe.
The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
Dear G,
Consider the following:
http://www.amazon.com/Hitachi-C10FSB-10-Inch-Sliding-Compound/dp/B00007J8CG/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=hiqid=1248012662&sr=8-9
http://www.amazon.com/Makita-2703-10-Inch-Benchtop-Table/dp/B0000223IK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hiqid=1248012727&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Rousseau-2700XL-Makita-Hitachi-DeWalt/dp/B0000224S3/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_text_b
http://www.amazon.com/Rousseau-PortaMax-18-Inch-48-Inch-Folding/dp/B0000224RZ/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_text_b
Now, granted, with two outfeed tables, thats setup will run around $1400.00. I can tell you from experience as a contractor that you will get MANY years from it. The tablesaw setup is surprisingly accurate and stable. I can easily rip sheet goods by myself. I have used this same setup daily for the past ten or fifteen years. The whole mess breaks down and fold up quite nicely as well.
Best,
John
GJ13
I just finished my bedroom and 660 sq ft of eng. maple floors. I did all the cuts with a battery powered circular saw. You want to leave the wood floor short of the walls and not get them to tight so they don't have room to move. The new baseboard will cover the gaps. A nice cross cut miter saw, I have a Makita in my shop, is great for baseboards, but you can cope the inside corners, and hand cut a few outside corners with circular saw as well.
For built ins, you will like a TS that will rip the materials you need. Depends on if you are using plywood sides, or full wood etc. I would spend my dollars on the TS first. I second or third the Griz saw. If you are moving your shop around and setting it up on job sites, then that is not the route to go. But if you are building bookcases and built ins in your shop at home and don't move, then the Griz is hard to beat.
AZMO
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-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
gj,
For the short term it sounds like you'd be better off with the mitre saw. But, once the flooring and baseboards are done then what? Your existing TS could be made portable without a lot of trouble and with a good sled you could get past the flooring.
The baseboards, at least to me, without a (S)CMS might be a bit of a challenge but doable. What about a good quality miter saw (hand powered) and get the Griz 1023?
For the bookcase I'd rather a TS. Since I upgraded to a Unisaw and made a new sled I hardly use my CMS at all. And your wife did ask about a TS for around $1,000, right? Think of it this way, kinda like saying, Hey I can do that in 4 hours!
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
But, once the flooring and baseboards are done then what?
Still a very useable saw!
Hands down!! the table saw is the stationary power tool to build your shop around. It will do everything a CMS will do and more. Granted it doesn't do compound miters as easily as the CMS but unless you buy a 10" CMS it will not have an advantage.
You can crosscut with the TS, but you can't rip with the miter saw. Since you'll be doing some cabinet making, I think you have no choice but to get a good TS. Of course you could do it all with a circular saw, but not advised, at least for the bookcase. If you do get a good TS and not a miter saw put some time and energy into building a large, smooth-running crosscut sled. You can build it all out of scrap, and I perfer this method in many cases compared to the miter saw. My miter saw cost $600, but if I had to choose between it and the use of a crosscut sled, I would take the sled, hands down (what does that expression mean?). Of course I am very confident with a wormdrive for all types of crosscutting, and don't do much crown moulding. Whereas the homebuilding toolset is circular saw, mitersaw, tablesaw, jigsaw; the woodworking toolset is tablesaw, jointer, planer, bandsaw. You are doing some of both. Both groups have a good tablesaw.
Brian
I have both and it's a fools errand to be overly invested in a table saw when working on home construction. I use mine for less than 10% of the cuts. My brother in law has a cheap chinese off brand he paid about $70.00 for and it helped him do some fantastic work. Both he and are were complete novices with regard to building our own homes. Look over to the left in the advanced search and enter the number 37759.1 & 34866.1
Scroll through those pictures and check out my work. I started with sawmill wood rough and green and wound up building that for my first (and only) time out of the chute.
Buy a good one because the poor ones have no way to adjust the inevitable slop out of them. Mikita makes a good one, I have a Dewalt which has been decent but I notice the new ones aren't built to the same standard as mine was..
Do look at the grizzly line of table saws and stay away from Delta.. I had such a bad experiance with mine that I wound up giving it away three years after I bought it !
Grizzly on the other hand has been flawless on everything I've purchased from them..
When I worked as a finish carpenter, I used both saws. The one area that a table saw worked best at was hardwood flooring. When you need to RIP a piece to fit along a wall, this is a job for a table saw. Can a Festool rip the tongue or groove off a piece so that it can be used as a "starter strip"? I have also worked as the "cut-man" for framers. Sometimes a miter saw was available, others it was a "worm-drive" saw that did rafter cuts. The worm-drive excelled at making "birdsmouth" cuts, and plumb cuts of rafter-tails AFTER all the rafters were already in place. Facia just looks better if all the rafter tails are in line, and the ends are plumb.
OK. you have a 12 foot long piece of flooring, How are you going to cut each end nice and square?
As for ripping, yes I've done a nice job with a straight edge and a skil saw.. you don't use one board, you set several along side it so the base of the saw has something nice flat and wide to sit upon.. put your striaght edge and go at it..
It's easier than trying to guide a 12 (or 18ft.) board through a table saw by yourself..
Yes you do need to change the blade to a finer tooth one so the edge winds up nice. So what!
When I'm up on the 3rd floor I should haul that plank down to the first floor, set up the infeed tables and outfeed tables and make the cut? Only to now have to haul it back up three flights of stairs.
Like I said I have a nice table saw, but far and away I use the SCMS a ton more..
Now I'll admit that if making little trinkets and boxes was my priority I could use a tabel saw. but long boards (10-20ft) do not crosscut clean and straight on anybodies table saw..
Edited 7/20/2009 6:54 pm ET by frenchy
Focus on the Objectives: 1) lay 800 sq ft flooring in one level in a house and 2)build plywood carcase built-in bookshelves.
Use 75% of the money for a table saw, 15% for a miter saw, 10% for the jamb saw and sabre saw. (already has a circular saw)
Not sure of others' experience laying flooring, but I was lucky to find some 7 foot boards--nothing approaching 12 or (goodness!) 18 feet long.
You will only use the table saw for ripping the last boards against the final wall, and this will be way easier than working with a skill saw, but that's still entirely doable.
The table saw comes into it's own on the bookshelf project...
Just try to find an 18' board which isn't still a tree. The ends of flooring needn't be cut accurately because they are usually under the baseboard trim. Ends within the floor area are already tongue and grooved on the ends. Accurate end cuts are necessary if there is an area of ceramic tile in an entrance way or where the boards butt up to an other floor surface.
Don't go near a sawmill then!
If you look at the pictures of my home (37758.1) I have thousands of board feet of timbers and boards that are 18 to 24 feet long..
Long boards are one of the great ways to build with.
I think we are talking about two different things. This original post was about putting down HARDWOOD flooring. If this comes any longer than 7' it would be a big surprise. If you are working with softwood, yes, then longer is possible, construction timbers for sure, BC fir yessiree.
Barrie,
I was talking about hardwood. At least I think black walnut, white oak, hardmaple, cherry, hickory, ash, elm, etc. are considered hardwoods <big grin>
That's the differance between buying wholesale directly from a sawmill and buying retail from a lumberyard.
I have a sawmill that has the ability to saw up to 34 feet for me If I can find trees long enough to warrant. (or wait untill they find them) 20 feet is not hard! Most commercial sawmills with equipment other than a portable bandsaw mill have the ability and even some of them have added track extensions to handle up to 18 feet..
That plus you have the first shot at wood with unique character. Ever see fiddle back black walnut? I've got several pieces of 1"x12"x10' fiddleback black walnut. Plus lots of shorter, narrower pieces for flooring..
What about fiddleback white oak?
Burls 22 inches wide by 10 feet long? Hang around sawmills long enough and you'd be amazed at what they saw and put in a bundle. My burls all came from one massive white oak which the sawmill was going to discard because they felt it wouldn't grade high enough to pay for sawing it.. I was so excited about it I paid 40 cents a bd. ft. when I could have had it for 20
I think we were discussing a stock flooring install, not unique, custom hardwoods. I never advocated crosscuts on the TS, I suggested an inexpensive CMS. If you are going to spend $1000 for tools, justified by the flooring "project," my suggestions of a good table saw and inexpensive CMS.
Of course, there are times when I use a portable circular saw for cutting up plywood sheets, but I usually just throw them up on the unisaw and rip/cut away. Much faster, more accurate than a straightedge and circular saw. I have good infeed/outfeed tables and 54 inch rip capacity, so this is my choice. YMMV.
I would not advocate for cheap tools. In the long run it will cost more (upgrade). A scms can be had for $400 - $500 on craigslist. Why spend the additional $$ if he happy with his ts.
When cutting sheet good I am not able to that on a ts by myself. Festool and Dewalt make track saws that make straight cuts as accurate as the ts (but pricey).
The trouble with cheap SCMS's is the accuracy of their cut. When I was cutting timbers I needed to make a 54.7degree cut. Since the cut was so long any error whatsover would have the tail or head of the cut opened up at the peak where it was extremely visable.
That would also show up in many many other ways..
Quality is very important with angled cuts and you need to pay for that to get it..
On the other hand I've Done some very nice straight cuts with nothing more than a straight edge and a SkilSaw. My brother in law built a extremely fine craftsman style home with nothing more than a table saw.. Including the hardwood flooring..
I realise a lot of hobbiests are in love with their table saw and for making small wooden items it's fine.. However too many really excellant homes have been made with nothing more than a cheap tablesaw.
I remember seeing homes being built that< once the "deck" was done, the carpenters would "plop'down" a radial arm saw in the middle of the floor and EVERYTHING came and went via that saw. A GOOD carpenter can cross cut a piece of wood with just his circ. saw. AND split the line! Random length flooring can be installed with just a miter saw AND a portable tablesaw. That "starter strip" might need ripped to width, sometimes, BUT the "finish strip" will always need a rip. Either the tongue must come off, the bottom part of the groove must be ripped off, or the strip needs a bit of thinning to fit. Set them BOTH out in either the garage or the back porch on a "bench" of two sawhorses and a sheet of plywood. All the sawdust can stay out there. A sabre saw for cuts around pipes and vents and doorways. New work would mean that the door trim goes on AFTER the floors are done. Old work (remodel) means a "Jamsaw" is needed to cut the trim enough for the flooring to go under the trim. It's not just one single tool, but it IS a combination of each tool that gets the job done. One other thing for the "tool-list", a good broom and dust pan to clean up the mess you make. Now, would one spend all of the profits on high priced tools just so they would not have to break a little sweat on the job? Get the best tool YOU can get, not afford. LEARN HOW to use each tool RIGHT and HOW they can do a job. The most expensive tablesaw is still just a tablesaw.
O.k.--If I can keep this thread here rather than move it to Power Tools, there's a recommendation for a Hitachi C10FSB and a Makita SCMS. Any others? Is Craftsman out of the running? Longevity is less important to me than accuracy. I'll only use it a few times a year but when I do it has to be accurate. Lasers? Worth the extra cost?
Both are extremely good machines. I give a slight nod to the Mikita simply because I've had such great success with all of my Mikita tools. Hitachi however also seems to make a very fine SCMS.
If Dewalt maintianed it quality I'd recommend them however I've heard that wear on their production equipment has deteriorated to the point where such accuracy is no longer possible. Mine however being nearly 9 years old does not appear to suffer from that. I am very comfortable holding accuracy of cuts to a tenth of a degree.
Thanks, Frenchy. Over the past couple days, I heard from two contractors and another DIYer who recommended DeWalt 12".
Hi I got a floor model Makita 10"SCMS. WoW Period. the stock blade is great.I live in a small town and mid trim out of a condo job my Dewalt MC ate its blade guard. Went to the hardware store with drooping lips. Looking at the limited selection, well after doing much business there, one of the sales dudes in the building centre took me to the floor model and gave me about $200 off it. That is one sweet saw. Finished triming 3 more condos and just took the blade in for a touch up. I got the dewalt fixed but it is the rough work saw now.
I bought a 10" Makita SCMS twelve years ago. I was cutting so many miter joints per hour that I burnt the motor on an ELU I was using. The Makita finished the job and has worked since then without need for repair. The design for this saw has not changed very much since then. This alone tells you a lot about the saw.
Edited 7/25/2009 10:12 pm ET by Barrie2777
Well, thanks for all the great thoughtful advice, everyone. I went ahead and ordered a 8 1/2" DeWalt slider from the big A. The 8 1/2" might seem small but I think it'll do everything I need it to do.
The saber saw I have--hadn't thought about that one but if I need it it's here. And kneepads are on the shopping list. I said to my wife, "My dad never used knee pads." She said, "No offense, but you're dad's body didn't hold up all that well." ;)So I can cut 24" with a SCMS? I think that's looking better and better. It might even come in handy with the built-ins. One thing I like about my little Craftsman TS is that it's light enough and small enough to carry up out of the basement to use outside. Because of limited indoor space, dust, and noise, I prefer to use it outside when the weather's nice. A 400lb. Grizzly sure sounds nice, but it might not be as practical for me as a 'portable' TS. That leaves the questions about sheet goods. Is it best to cut them to size with the circ saw and a straightedge? That's what I've been doing, but if there's a better way....Once again, thanks for all the great advice. This is a first class community.
"My dad never used knee pads." She said, "No offense, but you're dad's body didn't hold up all that well." ;)
I will leave it at your lovely Lady statement.. Give her a big hug from a old man that did the same over many years..
"So I can cut 24" with a SCMS? I think that's looking better and better." GJ, I landed a 12" Makita SCMS last year, and it has made a believer out of me. Never thought I could afford one, but then Festool came out with their fancy-dancy SCMS, and the upper class was suddenly selling off their pampered Makitas.
Being able to make wide crosscuts has made life so much easier. 24" is a bit of a stretch, as you don't get the full diameter of the blade in the stock, but 22" or 22-1/2" anyway, and I've even cut from both sides and finished off with a hand saw. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
He already has a table saw which is just fine for the few rips.. crosscutting on a table saw is nearly impossible with any accuracy. I don't care if they are only 7 feet long.
A good SCMS will take care of crosscutting up to 24 inches wide.
I've done too much nice work with a skilsaw and a straight edge.. I prefer doing that to attempting to rip big 3/4 inch thick sheets of 4x8 plywood.
Once you get pieces small enough if you have enough stuff like sleds etc.. you can go ahead and use the table saw, however you can also use a SCMS easier..
I'm willing to bet I've used my SCMS a hundred times for everytime I've used my table saw.
People are too much in love with a tool with limited purpose. Sure you can build jigs and sleds etc. But so what! Building those well takes time and money. attempting to make a square cut on a long board on a table saw is like triming your toenails with a bench grinder.. yeh, it can be done but so what!
I'd consider a SCMS for the flooring and a Festool (or similar) circular saw with guide for the built-ins. I never use the TS anymore for working with plywood. The Festool ( I have the smaller one) makes perfect cuts every time, easy set-up and no struggles with bulky sheets. You could probably do both for about $1000.
I have not looked at the other reply for your post.. Just my thoughts..
If for major house work I would get a good MITER SAW FIRST.. Without question!
A Table Saw is a pain in you know what for.. Drag along a TS to other floors of the house? Or always running here and there with the wood to the saw and back again from where you started! And ya' dinged the edge of the fresh cut on something you hit along the way...
And if it is REALLY a major job.. Probably both the Miter saw and a Table Saw.. I'd spent the money on a good miter saw.
I believe her words were to the effect of, "Can you buy a good table saw for less than $1,000?"
I'd say for that price you can get a "Excellent" Miter saw!
And never forget this is just one of many projects on your house.. A home is a life-long project..
To make it a HOME.. Never, EVER, get 'so' into this project that you never have lunch or supper together or 'other things' to fill the day! Every day! Etc.. Spent fun time together.. The house will survive without you folks for many years.
And your old hand 'Lectric' held saw will work fine with a good guide and a sheet or two of 2 inch thick insulation for a base to cut the wood. Get your hand held saw a good blade and a good guide that clamps onto plywood 96 inches long and 48 inches..And away you go!
And I thought of this.. I was listining to Doris Day singing of 'Sentimental Journey' at the time.. Been working on my house for many years.. Still crap but the children loved it and the youngest is 30!
I just finished 1000 sq ft of prefinished 3/4 oak flooring. Used a small miter saw (10" makita-about 20 yrs old) for all the cross cuts and shoe molding miters and a portable Hitachi table saw for the rips. You need to do both. Also, you'll need a jamb saw. Trust me, you'll need it. You will also need a sabre saw or a small bandsaw for those weird cuts around the doorways.
If I were buying tools for this job, with the objective of setting up shop, I'd buy a nice table saw, a cheap chop saw and a hand held sabre saw and a manual (offset handle) jamb saw. Also, may need to rent a pneumatic flooring nailer/stapler and an air compressor. Or buy the compressor and rent the nailer. Unless this is engineered, click together, type flooring....Oh, almost forgot, a bottle of ibuprophen for your back.
AND the KNEES! Just laying that ### laminate flooring made mine hurt for a few days after the job was done.
gj13
As a homeowner first, no question that the m-saw is of more use than the t-saw. Most sheet goods are easier to cut with circular saw anyway, for a homeowner who is not making production furniture.
Think of it this way: the miter saw can go room to room with you with minimal effort. Save the time and energy walking out to the garage or basement or wherever you will set up the t-saw. I don't think it is as easy or accurate to crosscut 3-6 inch wide boards on t-saw anyway. Friend of mine did his whole house floor with the m-saw on the floor next to him moving from room to room.
But what the heck - for $1000 you can get both in decent enough quality for a homeowner not making production furniture.
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