I know I’ll be sorry for opening this can of worms. I’m looking at the Laguna LT16 HD and LT16 HD classic vs the Minimax mm16 – I know the LT 16HD is more comparable to the mm16 and the classic is the old version with a slightly smaller motor. The classic is much cheaper (on sale 1900) but comes with 3hp euro motor. There has been some question of over heating with this motor, some say it’s propaganda seeded by minimax. A friend of mine has the classic and says he’s never had any problems, and he does resawing and other more heavy duty type work.
The LT16 HD now has a Baldor 4.5hp motor while the MM16 is a 4.8 Italian motor. Minimax claims th 4.8 is a true 4.8hp. The fun part is the Minimax guy tells me how his saw is head and shoulders above the Laguna and vice versa. I guess my question is this – does anyone have hands on experience with one or both of these machines? Also, have any of you used/have the classic (old LT16 HD) and does it handle most moderately heavy duty tasks.
I’m not going to be resawing hard maple for 8hrs a day – I’m just a hobbiest. Maybe the classic is all I need in a bandsaw. Or would I be remorse that for only a few hundred more I could have had a 4.8hp Italian machine?
I know there are a few other features to consider, but many of these are minor and differ in cost marginally. Thanks for the help.
Replies
I'm sure that others will be able to offer additional insight, but I'll give my 2 cents.
The two saws are similar in features on the data sheet and I believe the HD is very similarly priced to the MM 16.
The one thing that caught my eye was that you mentiond that the MM sales person made claims asserting the MM was better than the Laguna... I've never had that experience myself. They are fairly down to earth and without ego in the sales of their products. Laguna has a reputation of "vendor bashing" but, they also have a good product.
Which one is better? I don't think I can give that kind of advice, both are excellent saws with reputations. I personally chose the MM16. I love it.. it outweighs the competition if nothing else :P
One thing I will say, the service at MM is unbelievable... responsive, customer focused, and a pleasure to deal with. They WILL make the customer satisfied, whatever it takes.
The new models of each saw have enough oomph to resaw anything you would put to it.
Now coming back to your last comment... many possess smaller HP bandsaws and are perfectly happy AND are extremely successful with the cuts and resaw operations. It's really a matter of patience and work habit. I can tell you that my MM can resaw a 15" wide walnut board, 4 ft long in less than 90 seconds with negligible resaw marks... it has enough power to cut anything I could ever hope to with it and I bought it as my "last" bandsaw.
I would suggest stopping by the owners forums for each of the companies and reading some of the posts. You'd get a better feel for the users of the units. Laguna's is on their website, no login required. Mini-max has a yahoo group, but you can get access by simply asking.
good luck in your purchase.
Cheers,
-michael
Mike
A few years ago I was looking for a new bandsaw and inevitably I gravitated towards the Italian machines. I must have looked at them all - SCM (built by Centauro), Centauro, MiniMax (another SCM brand but NOT Centauro), Meber, Stetton, ACM (they certainly build some of the Lagunas), Agazanni, etc. In general it is a very competitive market, so prices, specifications, etc. are all pretty much alike. In the end what won me over was a combination of design detail and dealer support. I opted for the Agazanni, but really there wasn't much in it between any of them. If anything the one detail that I found most important wasn't motor size or mitre fence, but the fact that the Aggy had a well-machined cast-iron trunnion against the sheet metal type on some of the others. You're right - the devil is in the detail!
Scrit
Well.... Actually Minimax machines are made by Centauro except the 45 cm one that they make themselves.
Just as an add on . Here in Brianza (the furniture industry area of Italy) you will find a Centauro in almost every artisan shop. You will have a hard time finding an Agazzani.
Philip
A friend of mine has the MM16 and is thoroughly pleased with it's performance and has been absolutely blown away by the CS and the class of the company. During his research, MM was patient, answered all questions openly, did not pressure him and refused to badmouth any competitors...not true of Laguna.
I'm impressed with the MM16 also, but have less experience with other machines of this calibur to compare to. Hypothetically, if I knew the machines were exact duplicates (which I don't), I'd pick MM for their outstanding service and integrity.
Take customer service into consideration for this decision. I own neither machine, sad to say, but TMS and others have heaped great praise on MiniMax for their customer service. Not sure about Laguna, it's a question worth asking.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hey Mike,
I went through the same thing a little over a year ago. I ended up with the MiniMax MM16, and have never regreted it. As has been said earlier, all the Italian made saws are similar, it's the details that distinguish them.
I also agree that MiniMax has the best customer service I've ever experienced. They really make it a signature.
Incidentally, I have the older version of the MM16, with the lower powered motor, but I've still resawn 12" green, black locust logs without problems.
Tom
Edited 11/11/2005 1:18 pm ET by tms
Mike -- I have the Laguna 16HD with an Italian motor that draws 12 amps at 220 volts. The resaw capacity (which was a major selection criterion) is 12 inches. It is made by Meber, an Italian manufacturer. The saw is almost seven years old. My understanding is that Laguna no longer sells this machine, but I would not buy it again if they did. It is a heavy-duty machine weighing about 300 pounds with hefty cast iron wheels and cast iron table. In fact, there are no sheet iron pieces where there shouldn't be. I don't depend on this saw for a living, but it gets used most every day. It came with a very small, toy-like miter guage that fits in a shallow, metric- width track that is all but unusable and which will not accept a standard 3/4 inch American miter guage. The fence is a light-weight bent-up aluminum assembly about three inches high and the guide rides on a piece of angle iron on the leading edge of the table, not really suitable for resawing. It came with Carter Guides above the table and European-style guides below -- both of which are OK, but which take more time to set for each size blade than simpler guides. In use the saw has been satisfactory and I have not had any trouble with it once I started using Timberwolf blades (124-inch ordered by phone). The motor has never bogged down and seems to be adequate for anything I would ask of it. I've had to adjust the feed rate for various species of wood and dimensions, but I don't attribute this to any issues with the machine itself. The "owner's manual", if you can call it that, is an incomplete pathetic paste-up photocopy of various pages and is certainly not worthy of the name. When I bought the saw I expected more customer support than I got and felt that sales were more important to them than support; to be fair, this was likely a sales rep problem more than a policy, but irritating. All in all, the Laguna does what it was supposed to do with a higher price tag. Since my purchase, lots may have changed. If I were to look for one again, I would compare the Rikon 18-inch with the Agazzani MM and other machines mentioned above before deciding, but pass on Laguna. Jim
Edited 11/11/2005 2:23 pm ET by Jimma
After researching bandsaws, I opted for the MM16. So far, I am extremely pleased with my decision. Mini Max's customer service is the best I have ever experienced -- not just for tools -- but for any purchase. Plus, the machine itself is amazing. Shortly after uncrating and setting up the machine (and slapping on a new Lennox carbide tipped blade) I was resawing a 14" wide mahogany board like it was nothing. I also looked at the comparable Laguna saw, but ultimately was turned off by the negative customer service stories I heard.
Good luck.
Hi Mike,
I've spent several hours operating the various Laguna bandsaws we have at school, which run from 16" to 28". I would be happy to own any of them for use in a one-man shop.
I, too, encourage you to look closely at the details. For example:
We've been very happy with the operation of these saws, which get lots of use by more than 600 students each semester. We've been able to use all of them for resawing without compensating for drift. The ceramic blade guides work well, but there's a bit of a learning curve to set them up for optimal operation. Dust collection has been marginal when sawing thick stock and resawing. Shorter students gravitate toward the lower tables on the Jet saws, finding the Laguna tables too high for them. The on/off switches haven't stood up to use - they're plastic and poorly attached.
We have the 28" set up as a dedicated resawing machine, complete with power feeder and 1-1/4"-wide carbide-tipped blades: we have to prop up the table to keep it from moving out-of-square under load, but it sure resaws well!
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I have had a Laguna 16HD for about three years. It has a 3 HP motor. The dust collection isn't that great but I have no frame of reference. Other than that, I think it is a superb piece of equipment. Although it will handle blades up to about 1.5", I almost always use a 1/2 blade to resaw and it works very well. I change down to 1/4" for cabriole legs, etc. But that's about it. No reservations.
I also have a Laguna X-31 and I have a lot of reservations about that purchase so I am not an unqualified Laguna fan.
Good luck.
Stephen J. Gaal
Mike,I have a Laguna LT14SE for a year and I think they have the best blade guide available on the market now. Since I use it a lot, the table height at 44 inches was a plus.Michel, from Montreal
I just upgraded from a Jet 14" BS to the MM16 about 2 weeks ago so I don't have a lot of experience with the MM yet. But I'm very satisfied with the saw so far, and MM has been a pleasure to work with in regards to answering any questions I ran into during setup. The Lenox Tri-Master blade on the MM16 gives super clean resaw cuts - very few (if any) saw marks to clean up, and that's just first attempts without benefit of a taller auxiliary resaw fence or featherboards to keep things snug to the fence. IMHO their manual is one of their weak points, but you can always get answers from the MM folks. The only thing I really dont like is the mobility kit. It was thrown in as part of a package deal, but I've already got another MB on order. Dont know what kind of shop you've got or whether mobility is a concern for you, but my shop (garage) floor has just enough roughness in the concrete floor that the MM16 gets stuck in spots while moving it. Their mobility kit frankly scares the bejeezus out of me. You need one hand on the johnson bar which only allows one hand to stabilize the saw during movement, and that's at the front table edge. I took a cue from another WW on the SMC forum and have the Delta MB on order.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=10507
Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?
Mike - no can of worms opened here. I think they are both fine saws. I have a 5 year old LT-18 with the Euro motor and it was made by ACM. Never a lick of trouble out of it and works great. I haven't noticed any motor heating problems although have heard that some have complained about high temperatures on European made motors. It is my understanding the Laguna does use Baldor motors now. I have had nothing but positive experiences with Laguna customer service. I did have a problem with another piece of equipment shipped directly from a show over a year ago and Laguna handled that well although it could have been a little faster.
The bottom line is that I would buy a Laguna BS again and from what I have heard of MM, I could just as easily buy one of theirs. The basic differences appear to be:
Whichever you choose, I am sure you will love it.
Steve
Well, if you haven't made up your mind yet, let me muddy the water. Have you considered Bridgewood. Their PBS, Professional Bandsaw Series, saws are Italian I believe. I have their PBS20 and love it. I have several of their machines and have found the service to be excellent.
At one of the big woodworking shows I went back and forth between Laguna and Minmax. I found the same thing -- they "bashed" each other. I was not impressed.
Alan - planesaw
Thanks for all the input. I appreciate everyone taking time to help. Sounds like either saw will probably be a great choice - neither one is significantly above the other. There is always the chance of getting a lemon but no more than with any other brand either.
mike
A dissenting note on MM customer Service...
My boss bought a MM16. He had issues with the tabletop.
Not a particularly big deal but the mitre slot was
undersize and a bit crooked (curved) and slightly
askew narrower at one end than at the other.
He became increasingly annoyed when MM continued to insist
that "they are all like that" and that he should buy
a different miter gauge and size it to the available slot.Well my boss finally freaked put a stop payment on the
credit card and told them to pick it up. Only then
did they agree to pay to have the slot corrected.I inadvertantly added fuel to the fire when I showed him
my Grizzly drill press. The table is nicely ground.
He asked about second table that was laying there I
told him that one of the T slots was milled undersize
and Grizzly sent me another one and let me keep
the original if I could find a use for it.He hit the roof because the MM table finish isn't
anything to brag about in the first place and in the
second place he felt that for 2400 bucks he should
at least get the level of customer service I got
for 400 bucks.My advice is pay with a credit card and carefully inspect
your new arrival.
You need to consider the Agazzani from Eagle Tools in California, http://www.eagle-tools.com . Very good saw. I selected there 24" model over Laguana and MM. They're all good, but to be fair you should consider the Agazzani. They're a smaller company so many people don't know about them, but many of the top woodworkers in the US use them. I needed a part that broke while moving 400 miles to my new home. I had it in less than a week and they didn't even charge me for it even though it was clearly my fault.
I have the 20" Aggi. Another advantage is the price. I think I paid 1800 for my 20" saw.
I think I'm missing something here. A lot of folks mention the Agazzani, but by comparison the 24in Agazanni is closer to the MM16 or LT16 HD but about a grand more (3200). Did I miss something?
MIKE
Furthermore, what's up with all the Minimax table problems. I've heard more complaints about table problems than I'm comfortable with!!! For 2500 bucks I expect a near flawless saw. Is that unreasonable? Also, Laguna seems to get the thumbs down on customer service but I've heard less complaints about product problems.
What are you comparing?
Don't just look at resaw capacity.
I went through this same problem about 6 months ago. 2 things sold me on Agazzani.
1. Who uses them (Sam Maloof, James Krenov, and Fine Woodworking's shop.)
2. Jessie @ eagle-tools
Basically there all the same but minor differences. But the main thing is not the tool but the user!
No didn't miss anything. When I bought I compared 24"ers to 24"ers for all the companies. At that time, 3 years ago, the Agazzani had very similar capacities for resaw and the power was about the same. I got the Aqazzani with some blades for about $200 less than a Laguana or MiniMax would have cost me.
What really clinched it for me was the Agazzani had a stop swith wired to the foot brake the others didn't at that time. Also the Agazzani had a hand lever to release the trunnion. The others required a wrench to loosen a nut, what a pain. Just seemed to me at that time the Aqazzani had more useful features and a quality reputation comparable to the others.
Naturally I have assumed that level of quality and design carries over into there complete line of band saws, regardless of size, and feel it would at least be wise to consider them when making a bandsaw purchase. Additionally they're a little known company unheard of by the average woodworker so felt it good to at least make sure the original poster at least knew about them since he was considering machines from similarly reputable companies.
Thanks for the heads up musick. You are right not much known about them, hard to find even on the net. I just worry about capacities. Seems like the capacities on the smaller Laguna and minimax are actually greater and cost wise they are cheaper.
Could be but haven't really checked that close lately. It seems like the last couple of years the competition has really heated up on resaw capacity and Hp. Most every manufacturer has made improvements in those areas. 15" resaw capacity is plenty for me, what I find more useful is a larger table. Everything I do requires the table and often the larger table makes things just that much easier. I very seldom require the full resaw capacity, typically only 8 to 12".
Most all saws above the 14"ers have plenty of power for the occassional resaw. Definately not the same level of concern as with what was commonly available 10 years ago. But should resawing be the primary intended use then go for the higher Hp. And if you're going to be sawing small logs then resaw capacity is a bigger concern.
"What really clinched it for me was the Agazzani had a stop swith wired to the foot brake the others didn't at that time. "
That is somewhat confusing as I would think the large BS would have more features. I have a 5 yr old LT-18 that has a stop switch on the foot brake.
Steve
Musick -
Can't say about the others in the range, but I have a (now) 4-year old Agazanni Cosma 700 (28in). I viewed the 600 (24in) and 800 (32in) at the same time as the 700 and the spec., fit and finish were identical. Mine has a mechanical brake on the stop switch (mandatory here in the EU) which I reckon makes it a lot safer than a foot brake.
Steve -
What extra features do you need? A bandsaw is essentially a very simple machine so bells and whistle are just something to fall off or break, IMO. A lever to lock the trunion, fence that is quickly adjusted to counter blade set and a flip-over (high/low) fence are simple enough things to ask for and make a lot of difference to the useability of the machine.
Scrit
Scrit - I was just responding to musik's comment on the lack of a stop switch on the brake. I am happy with my LT-18 and really need no other features.
Steve
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