Hi
Having recently moved to the UK I was getting frustrated at the general lack of choice in quality home woodworking machines. Recently I discovered that mini max is owned by an italian company (SCM Group) and there is a UK distributor. So when I set up my shop I will more than likely go with mini max (pricey but worth the long term investment).
I would be very grateful for any input on MM machines generally in terms of quality, reliability/ issues etc. I am pondering either an FS30 jointer/ planer with one of their small sliding table saws, or, if my shop won’t have a big enough footprint, the C26 Combination machine. Any input on the above please!
Cheers,
Replies
Take a look at what Felder has to offer. The Hammer line is geared toward the home woodworker.
Join the FOG, Felder Owners Group, on Yahoo. The FOG has quite a few UK members. I have not noticed many non USA members on the Mini-Max Owners Group on Yahoo.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
When your ship comes in... make sure you are not at the airport.
JerryThanks for the tip. Hadn't known about Felder and their site is impressive. They have more exposure in the UK market than Mini Max. They appear to have good table saw options in the K3 and K5 units as well. I will look very closely at this. Their saws seem to be able to take dado cutters which I was told were not available in the UK for health and saftey reasons (idiotic but they use the term Nanny State in the UK for a reason). Cheers,
Greg
Greg,Like Jerry, I too have Hammer equipment. When I was searching, I had narrowed my selections down to Mini Max and Hammer. I was considering the combo machines, sliding table saw/shaper/jointer/thicknessing planer from each of them. I finally went with Hammer and I got the equipment as two separate pieces - A slider/shaper and a joiner/thickness planer. I also have the slot mortise unit that fits to the joiner/planer and the table saw has the slotting blade (very nice).I think both brands are at the top of their class/price range. It was VERY hard to decide between them, but Hammer finally won out for fit and finish and some important "small" but ultimately quite significant differences, including the fact that the shaper is a REAR tilting type, the minimum gap between the sliding table and the blade and the design of the ""dado" (not a dado at all but a vertical shaper head on the saw arbor).If you are interested in this type of equipment I think you will be very satisfied with either. The MM has an even more sophisticated quick blade change on the joiner head than the Hammer, but both are excellent in convenience and accuracy.Both companies have great catalogs and DVDs demonstrating their lines. It really helps to see the equipment "in person," but the DVDs are the next best thing. In the end, it might come down to which color of paint you prefer, Hammer red or MM blue!Rich
Rich....or even Record Power Green for that matter! It seems Record sell their own version (also called a C26) which looks pretty similar to the MM C26. The guy at the UK dealer said the machine is built by SCM/ MM and sold to Record for sale under their brand. Cheers,
Greg
I've had my FS30 for a couple of years and am very happy with it. I've had no troubles - none.
I also bought the slot mortiser attachment and it is a great attachment. (If you buy one, get in touch with me directly and I will describe two attachments that I feel you should build.)
I visit the user group daily and I am shocked by the number of problems I see posted on the MM bandsaws. I don't have one, I own a trouble-free Laguna, but would be leery of the MM bandsaw because of the complaints I see from others.
Frosty
"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
HiI think once I know the space I will have to work in this may help decide the combo machine vs indivdual units question. If the latter I believe I will definitely get the FS30 even though I may go with another brand for a table saw. Your comments are interesting wrt the issues on the bandsaws. I hadn't heard about this but good to know. cheers,
Greg
I own a FS350 and was wondering what attachments you recommend.
Dan
I'm very pleased with the slot mortiser.If you choose to get one let me know. There are a couple of items I built to help:a rolling stand to aid in mount/dismount and storage of the attachment andan auxiliary table extension that aids in set-up of items for mortising. (suggested by Sam Blasco of MM)Frosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
Frosty,I do own one and would love more details or photos of your items. I am at [email protected].Thanks
Will do. I have to get a couple new pictures first.Frosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
Sorry to take so long to gather pictures. Let me know if you want them sent to your email address in addition to this post.1. The first thing I did was install a handle on the fence. It is awkwardly balanced and the fence itself does not have a place to hang onto. I bought a large handle at the hardware store and fastened it with sheet metal screws.2. The slot mortiser is pretty heavy and it needs a place to be stored when not on the machine. I made the rolling cart to support under the table. It is raised and lowered on to the studs simply by cranking the table up and down. Use the largest rollers practical and keep them as wide apart as possible. It can be top-heavy. 3. It was always a little difficult and possibly inaccurate to properly align an object on the table, I asked Sam Blasco at MM and he suggested the extension table. He does not bother with a T-slot but I added one with a right angle and a 45* guide. Write if you have more questions.Frosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
frosty,Some interesting ideas there on the slot mortiser carrier. If yours is anything like mine, it is not only very heavy, but there's no good way to grab it and carry it as it's very "unbalanced" trying to hold it in it's "upright" position until getting it on the mounting bolts. Holding it by the table, even with the "locks" screwed down as as hand-tight as I can do, the weight of the chassis can move it against the bearings and catch my fingers.Do you have any concern that the entire weight of the cast iron chassis and under carriage is supported by the table and its bearings. Looking at the design of my Hammer mortiser, I believe the bearing assembly could become distorted by that weight pulling in a direction 180 degrees away from intended.Rich
I don't believe it represents a problem. The weights are minor compared to the capacity of the bearings.Furthermore, bearings are round - in short they rotate as they carry a load and thus the 'down weight' they supported at one point becomes an 'up weight' after they have rolled, or rotated, 180*.Frosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
Thank you frosty. The pictures are very helpful. Great ideas!
Dan
The big machines in my shop are SCM, but when it came to some of the smaller items we went with the lighter MiniMax versions, because we had good experience with SCM yet felt it was hard to justify the prices of SCM throughout. In retrospect I can say it was a good compromise. We've had the MM shaper and also the MM drum sander for about 7 years, and probably put them through more torture than any 1-man shop could dish out in 20 years. Bottom line for me - when I retire next year I will buy a MiniMax combo machine for my private use.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
DavidThanks for that. Have you ever had occasion to use an MM combo machine yet? Greg
I've owned a MiniMax sliding table saw for several years now and it has performed very well. No problems what so ever after a good initial tune up to dial everything in where it needed to be.
The Felder site is impressive but when you get down to actual purchasing you'll discover that there listed prices are for units that are basic and stripped of all the things you need to make it all work, so in the end they work out to be a lot more expensive than MiniMax. They were more difficult to work with and their customer service wasn't very good. I had a friend that purchased one of their higher end sliding table saws and they never could get it set up right so he ended up giving it back and swore never to do business with them again. He owns the cabinet shop that makes most of the fixtures for all the Costco Stores, so you would have thought that their customer service would have been all over that
I myself had put down $ 1500.00 to purchase one of their saws sight unseen, but after I saw it I wasn't impressed at all. I tried to upgrade with them so I wouldn't lose my deposit but in the end it was, believe it or not, more cost effective or less expensive to walk away from that deal and purchase from MiniMax. The company that owns MiniMax, SCM, is much larger than Felder and has been around longer and is much less likely to be effected by economic conditions as well.I actually wrote a letter to the editor of Woodshop News about my experience with Minimax and Felder, which you can find published on their Website in one of their monthly news papers this past year.
Edited 9/13/2009 11:29 pm ET by brownman
Edited 9/13/2009 11:30 pm ET by brownman
I don't own any MiniMax machines myself, but I have been reading these Knots threads for too many years. FWIW, I can't ever remember reading a complaint about a piece of MiniMax equipment.However, I would also urge you to factor customer service into your decision. That can vary considerably from country to country and manufacturer to manufacturer. Everyone says the customer service for MiniMax in this country is outstanding, and that may be one reason for so few complaints.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
"FWIW, I can't ever remember reading a complaint about a piece of MiniMax equipment."
Join the Mini-Max forum on Yahoo and you will see complaints. I see less problems on the FOG about Felder/Hammer machines. I would have to add that I am a very happy Hammer owner and if I ever upgrade it will be to a larger Felder machine.
"Everyone says the customer service for MiniMax in this country is outstanding, and that may be one reason for so few complaints."
Also, check out some of the problems on the MM forum.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
When your ship comes in... make sure you are not at the airport.
brownman,When I priced my machines, the final prices, with both brands configured similarly were too close to call. It WAS frustrating at first trying to "put together" the package I wanted from Felder (Hammer). It IS a sort of a-la-carte experience, but that makes the selection more flexible. I almost gave up and told the salesman that. He said, tell me the way you want the machine set up, listened to my list and had a "final" price in a few seconds. That was pretty painless.But MiniMax did seem a LOT friendlier, responsive and personal on the phone and through email. The owner of the national operation contacted me several times. I went to see a demonstration in Phoenix and the instructor, from Texas was fabulous. He owns his own furniture-making business, is a master craftsman. I forget his name. He runs a hands-on MM seminar series as well as on line instruction lessons.During the final ordering phase I became dissatisfied with the responsiveness of the Hammer salesman. The national manager became aware of the problem, contacted me, told me the salesman was no longer with them and personally handled the transaction from that point, until I had my machines set up. He explained and supervised the testing and calibration when the machines arrived in Baltimore from Austria and before they were shipped to me in Florida. Now he is also gone from the company.I've had some contact with the East Coast Felder office since, and they seem to be adequately responsive.Rich
Rich,
It seems that the more comments I hear on the service of the various companies that it boils down to the particular salesman or technical support people that are there at the time. The salesman that I dealt with at MiniMax told me that there is a lot of jumping from one company to another and that for the most part they all know each other. Hopefully they are doing a better job of weeding out those sales people who are weak in technical or people skills or at least a better job of training them, if there is any training. I hate it when you go into to buy a car or a piece of machinery and the sales person doesn't know his product well or represent it honestly. Perhaps they just aren't paying them well enough to keep them, which may be understandable in todays economy. It's not like there selling these like TV sets or computers, where there's three or four in every home.
Brownman,"there is a lot of jumping from one company to another and that for the most part they all know each other"I wouldn't be surprised.Rich
Hammer sales and service here in the UK have been a pleasure to deal with. Ranging from the highly obsessional installer who spent 8 hours dialling in the settings for all 3 components of my C331 combo machine to the nth degree as well as providing a tutorial to a newbie, all the way to the replacement of the spindle moulder poly V belt which split after 8 months of use (they came to replace the part as well as to check if misaligment of the pulleys was a factor (all free of charge)). Downsides? - Having a bespoke machine (3X 3phase motors) took the best part of 4 months to arrive. You pay thru the nose, but for me, despite this, worth every penny. So, Yes, different country, different experience.Edited 10/10/2009 3:44 pm by DrHWO <!-- DRHWO -->
Edited 10/11/2009 6:35 pm by DrHWO
Like David Ring, I also own a MM shaper, and am quite pleased. I've had it for quite a while now (with age comes fog in brain), but can't remember exactly the number of years. It has been a very good investment for me.
I know someone with a MM16 bandsaw who uses it a lot and is also as happy as I am. I used it once to resaw some 14" wide veneer (my bs has a 10" max clearance) and was quite impressed.
I bought an older combination machine.It had been beat on,and needed a new electrical component in the function panel.I had an excellent experience with their technical support.Lotsof help,and the machine has not had a problem in four years of commercial use.
GW:
I am a very satisfied Felder combination machine owner. And, as others have said, the Felder/Hammer line will satisfy you too. That said, MiniMAx also make fine machines and you'd probably be well pleased with that choice.
In either case, I would strongly advise you to get the power lift for the planer (aka "Digidrive" in Felder parlance). With a combo jointer/planer you have to lower/raise the planer table to to/from its lowest position and all that hand cranking will get awfully old.
Good luck with your choice.
Hastings
That is very useful to know! Thanks for the advice. cheers,
There have been several issues raised in this thread. I will respond to two:1. "Cranking up and down takes a lot of time - and gets old." I guess it depends on which machine you own and what is "a lot of time". I bought a MiniMax FS 30 because, among other things, it requires fewer 'turns' to elevate the planer bed. My conversion time from jointer to planer, or the opposite, takes less than 1 minute. I have timed it many times. I can't speak for other machines.2. Space and conversion time are two conflicting issues - but - I have not heard any mention about the virtues of a 12" jointer. That was my main motivation for a combo.3. It was important for me to have the chip ejector connection remain in the same position in either mode. As I recall, models other than FS 30 required changing the dust collector hose from end to end on conversion. I am not sure about this; it is worth checking.4. A slot mortiser attachment is a major benefit. Look into it.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Frosty,"Space and conversion time are two conflicting issues - but - I have not heard any mention about the virtues of a 12" jointer. That was my main motivation for a combo."Changeover on my Hammer takes no more than a minute, also, even with the "cranking" of the table. And the space-saving makes it worthwhile. The DC hose remains attached to the chipper extractor which pivots about 180 degrees during the change.The 12" joiner, with rapid-change knives was a MAJOR consideration in my decision. Although I had access to an 8" joiner, my own machine was a 6 inch before this purchase. This machine is every thing I hoped it would be, and more. Bigger IS better in a joiner.And the mass and accuracy of the planer bed, along with that fantastic cutter head gives me completely snipe-free, effortless milling capability. It's amazing how quiet the machine is compared to smaller ones.Rich
I agree! The 12" jointer is a blessing. When the fence is removed it looks like the deck of a carrier.I too have the Tersa knives. Changing knives is a matter of just a couple of minutes.If I understand you, the chip discharge hose switches from end-to-end when you switch functions. This would be a major problem in my shop/I'm glad you are happy. So am I.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Frosty,The Hammer doesn't have Tersa knives. Those are REALLY nice. Slide in. Slide out. I use a T-handle hex wrench to loosen set screws on the Hammer-Felder quick change mechanism. Not quite as elegant, but still quick.I have a flexible hose connected to the chip guard. As the guard swings, the end of the hose that's attached does move through an arc of about 3 feet, but the hose leads to the ceiling and is supported by an elastic band which allows it to move, then pulls it up pretty much straight vertically, so it's never in the way. And the bulk of the hose doesn't actually change position much. Not really a problem.I had decided on the Hammer slider saw over the MM. But to tell the truth, I think I liked the MM joiner/planer just a wee bit better than the Hammer, but went with the Hammer so the colors would match!Yup, both brands are fine machines.Rich
I have the j/p combo only (with the slot mortiser attachment.) My dust collection 'header' runs along the wall, therefore the need to keep the machine discharge at the same end at changeover. The overhead hose sounds great.We'll both do alright, won't we?Frosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
Hastings."With a combo jointer/planer you have to lower/raise the planer table to to/from its lowest position and all that hand cranking will get awfully old."Are you referring to the changeover from jointer to thickness planer?You're right. I have to do it maunally. Makes me have to organize my work flow more than I would have to do if I had 2 machines. The change over is very simple, but the need to crank that table does factor into it. I don't think there's a power option for my Hammer A3-31.Rich
Rich:"Are you referring to the changeover from jointer to thickness planer?"Yes.I was lucky. I had originally ordered a CF 731 combo but it was totaled in transit. Felder replaced it with CF 741 combo complete with the power drive on the planer. Hardly a day goes by without me giving thanks to the shipper; it really speeds up changeovers. Although I try to plan my work too.Regards,Hastings
a second vote for felder. like hastings, i also have a felder cf741p, and can't imagine working on something else. (well, maybe a kf700 and ad741...) i have a friend with a minimax combi (jim, are you out there?), so i looked long and hard at that before i bought. but while it's a nice machine, the felder has a better fit and finish, and some very nice features, which ultimately sealed the deal for me. in particular, the shaper tilts rearward and not forward, which is much safer and (to me) more versatile. the runout on the saw was <= .001" at last calibration, and the table top is set up flat within .002" across the saw, shaper and jointer (using feeler gauges and machinist straightedge). best of all, the machine holds its settings. the sliding table uses x-roll which keeps dust out of the guideways. add in the digi-drive on the planer, user swap-able shaper spindles, and variable speed motors (which makes a huge difference in using the shaper, especially if you ever run a router spindle in it), and it's a fantastic machine.so, i'll echo what hastings and jerry have said: read the posts on the felder owners group, and check out their machines. whatever you end up deciding best fits your needs, you'll at least have fun looking.cheers,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
Just a note. make sure you keep the x-roll bearings clear of dust. I new someone who had one clog up on him and Felder had to come out get it unstuck for him as he couldn't do it himself.
hi brownman,
thanks for the tip. i use as much dust-collection as possible (e.g., from the saw guard, shaper hood and the cabinet), but the bearings can still get some as the brushes sweep dust out of the guide-ways. since i don't use the machine daily, i keep a machine maintenance log book, and generally do an extra cleaning while the glue-up cures. that also has the advantage of keeping the dust at bay during the finishing phase. (ah, the pleasures of working in a garage... :-)
cheers,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
I own the SC4WS slider and it has been a great machine after I tuned it to meet my needs.
On space I put away the huge fence and supports most of the time and use the smaller miter fence with no problems. I did alot of research on the combo machines and unless you are mr. super organized in your work efforts it sounds fairly inconvenient. It might be worth it on the planer/jointer combo due to the sheer infeed and outfeed space savings, but I love being lazy with separates.
I am not sure about the complaints people may be talking about in this thread, but when I complained about a slight crown in my support table, mini-max sent me another one lickity split. My salesman followed up with me evey few months for like a year to see how things were going.
I would consider their jointer if it wasn't standard 3-phase only.
Very solid products, but no matter how fancy the power tool I have learned you need to spend time tuning it up...doesn't matter if it is a grizzly or SCM. For my needs i really wanted my slider and table to be on the same plane and that was a fairly time consuming adjustment to do precisely and right.
JasonA clear message in this thread is post sale service and support can make or break you. There will be the inevitable 'issues' coming up sooner or later and even a lesser machine could be viewed as a better buy if the service & support afterwards is top notch. Are you US or UK based? Cheers, Greg
I am in the US. In relation to sliders specifically, I do not perceive there are many high quality choices (at least in the US) within reach of the high end hobbiest...you basically have mini-max and feldar/hammer.
I moved from a grizzly cabinet saw with a jessum aftermarket slider. Besides the capacity issues on the slider, I was constantly having to readjust parallel to the blade on the slider. I never trusted it for precision cuts.
I see some of the wanna-bee's making first offerring in the slider space and I am encouraged, but I don't feel the robustness in the mechanisms is there yet.
At the end of the day you take all these opinions, do your own research and hope you are buying the right machine within your budget. Best of luck
Hi,
I live and woodwork in the uk.
After reading this thread I am amazed at the attitude towards UK woodworking.
There are many "quality" brands out there that are the same or better than you will find in the USA. The problem is probably that you have not yet adjusted from the USA brand names. Felder/Hammer/MiniMax and SCM are the obvious names with Felder at the top of the pile. MM and SCM are seen here as mid range.
Also the philosophy about ww is different here. Less about heavy cast iron and more about sliding tables and functions.
Yup... use of a dado set is not seen as very important here because there are many alternative ways to cut that joint. The comment about "nanny state" is rediculous given the older fashioned macho and unsafe approach of the USA. Your only just about to discover riving knives 40 yrs after Europe.
If you want an introduction to UK quality tools then try using the leading ww web site http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk as a source of information.
regards
Alan
Sounds a bit defensive to me.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
AlanThanks for your message. I am aware of the site you suggested and already have it in my favourites. What in your view are the top brands available in the UK. This is what I am really after. cheers,
Greg
I'm aware of alternative ways to cut dadoes using a router or a shaper. Are there other ways you make these cuts, that I may not be aware of, in the UK or Europe in general? Personally I find it much easier to cut dadoes or slots using the dado blade on my table saw, especially in sheet stock. It cuts smoother, quicker, and more accurately (dado blade is adjustable) than any router set up, unless your using a CNC machine. Making dado or slots ,with the shaper, in smaller stock than sheet goods ,is certainly viable but it can't be, in any any scenario, easier or safer than a dado blade on a table saw with proper hold downs. So why would I go out and purchase a shaper for cutting dadoes or use a router set up when I can do either of these cuts better, on my table saw using a dado blade? I've been woodworking for over 20 years and have never had an accident or incident of wood tear out using a dado blade. On the other hand I've had many incidents of tear out using a router set up. The dado blade virtually eliminates tear out and the cut can be done in one smooth easy motion. Seriously can't understand the European mentality about using dado blades. Granted, we Americans have been behind in other areas of woodworking saftey ,such as the riving knife and adjustable fences to prevent kick back and such but on this issue of the dado blade I'm just not seeing it at all.
Ta Rah and Cheerie buy for now!
It seems to me that the only reasonable attitude one could take would be to choose the right tool for each individual case. Each method - table saw, shaper, router - has its own advantages and disadvantages, and I can't see why one would want to take one system as preferable in general. I use all three methods regularly, depending on the conditions.This is by no means an exhaustive list, but off the top of my head I'd say the main advantages to each method:Table saw - ease of set up and handling of sheet goods.
Shaper - accuracy of dado and smoothest cut.
Router - flexibility of set up.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Well said David! It's just that I can't understand why the Europeans have such a fear of the dado blade, given it's safety record here in the US. And so just what are you building these days in that scared land of Israel? I'm pretty much a serious hobbyist/ professional woodworker. That means I still enjoy building cabinets and furniture and occasionally do work for hire as I don't depend on this for income. I would be a lot busier doing work for hire if the economy was better here. No one wants to spend any money right now, so I'm busy remodeling the rooms in my own home. I'm in the midst of building cabinets and a built in office desk inside a closet space. I'm trying to decide if I want to make the doors or order them. I have a bunch of Cherry that I got for a great price($2.99 bd. ft) I have built doors before but I've never made them with a cope and stick router bit set. If I knew I were going to make a lot of them in the future I'd invest in a router bit set, or better yet a shaper. I just cant' see making them on my router table. I see how hot that 3 Hp router gets when I just cut groves in drawer sides and I wonder how it would hold up under a cope and stick router bit. I know the shaper is the better way to go if I do them myself. We have so many door and drawer making Co's here that it just doesn't seem practical to make my own. I'm trying to find a simpler but solid door design that I like, that I can make without the complications. I do enjoy getting on here and chatting with fellow woodworkers and it's even more interesting when they are from different parts of the world other than the US. People like you and the other David in England, aka as Lataxe on this site, even if I can't understand him half the time. It's obvious we have some very bright minds and colorful characters on this site. It seems to be the one I go to most often for wood talk.
So what's it like over there now? How safe is it to travel through there these days? Being a Christian myself, it's always a place I have wanted to travel, but have always been afraid. I just live a few miles from the Mexico border(Tiajuana) and I'm afraid to travel there due to all the drug trafficking and drug related shootings. It's just not very safe to go across the border here into Mexico any more.
Nice chatting with you and happy woodworking.
Danny
Edited 9/29/2009 1:38 pm ET by brownman
"And so just what are you building these days in that scared land of Israel?"I don't know if that was a typo or on purpose, but I'll admit it can be both sacred and scary.The economy here has slumped but not nearly as much as in the States. Since the spring my shop has been busy with orders for kitchen cabinets, so I've got no complaints. I'm also consulting for an ongoing project in Angola, which occasionally takes up my time but only in brief episodes. Also helping my youngest son build his own timberframe home, which is both satisfying and fun for me. And mostly, I'm gearing up (or perhaps down) for retirement in another year. I've started building a 70 sq. m. shop next to my home which will be my retirement shop. So I'm busy...I made many many kitchen doors with a router table (big PC router with cope and stick set) before I went out and bought a shaper. I can now say that it's probably the most versatile machine in the shop. There are always different ways of skinning any cat, and I can't claim that the shaper is indispensable, but I wouldn't want to be without one any more. My old router table sits in the corner unused - haven't touched it in at least 5 years - and I look at it as a kind of quaint reminder of days gone by.Finally, allow me just a bit of propaganda for my little corner of the world. You can come to Israel and travel around with no worry about your personal security at all. Unless you insist on going into the occupied territories there is nothing to be concerned about. I mean this seriously. (I'm a bit concerned lately that Mr. Ahmedinejad might send some Iranian blessings in our direction, but it won't happen yet.) Come visit for the Christmas season and see for yourself. I promise to personally show you around the Sea of Galilee (it's 30 min. from my home). There's a very famous carpenter who once lived near here...regards,
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
"I'm a bit concerned----Iranian blessings our way---"
I'm confident your military/industrial complex is more than capable of nullifying said "blessings" and returning them with "postage due"!!
Best wishes for a peaceful holiday season!
Regards,
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
Mack, I understand and appreciate the confidence you express, and there are many people in Israel who share it wholeheartedly. But my experience during the last few wars (I've been here for 40 years) is that even the winner doesn't win anymore.The best thing the US could ever do for Israel and the middle east would be to twist Iran's arm very hard right now. Otherwise we will sooner or later all find ourselves dragged into a very grim time.Thanks for your goodwill, and apologies for making off with this thread...David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
You are certainly correct about "no winners" but I think it's worth considering that those who are ready for trouble are usually better off in the end than those who go looking for it.
I hate to say it but I wouldn't count on the US for anything other than posturing and BS. Political correctness is a bit too high on the priority list in the current "climate".
Love my MM BS (now we're back on topic!)
Regards,
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
David,( Man from Galilee)
Sorry that was a typo! I did mean "sacred". Glad to hear that it's safe to come over. I'd like that someday and of course to visit with you would make the trip extra special. I'd at least like to come over before the great battle of Armageddon happens. I've been retired for a little over four years now and enjoy working in my 600 sq. ft shop I built a few years back. It's a tight fit with my panel saw but I've managed to organize it well enough to have sufficient room. I have that same router table set up with the big PC router with a Jessem lift. It works very well but I don't dare use large bits on it. I mostly use it for small stuff like edge routing and drawer slots and small dadoes ,etc. I probably should break down and get a decent shaper. I've got so many router bits though I'd have to get one I could use all those bits in. Perhaps that will be my next power tool purchase. So what brand of shaper did you end up getting?I still need to get some decent hand planes.I see Stanley is making some nicer ones now. I'll have to search on this site to see if everyone is liking these or not. I've been using the Swedish made Radi Plane with the disposable blades. It's very well put together and works very well, and I like the idea of not having to sharpen blades. I've had it for a few years now and haven't had to change the blade yet. I find myself using it more and more. Admittedly I haven't been much of a hand tool guy. Now as for that special carpenter, I've been hearing a lot lately that it was a very good possibility that He was more a mason and not so much of a woodworking carpenter as we have though for so many years.I built my shop with no windows, only skylights so I could have all the wall space for lumber racks , jigs and tool storage etc. I also highly recommend using a whole shop cyclonic dust collection system. I installed the 3 HP Grizzly one and it works very well. I also changed out all my power tool dust shoots from 4" to 5" and it has made a huge difference Not nearly as much dust in the shop now. It's the metal pipe and fittings that really bring up the cost of that set up if you go with it. I really should get some pictures on here soon. Anyways, congrates on your upcoming retirement and best wishes on your retirement shop build. Maybe you should do that in timberframe too. Thanks for chatting!
DannyEdited 10/1/2009 3:16 am ET by brownman <!-- BROWNMAN9 -->
Edited 10/1/2009 3:17 am ET by brownman
Danny,
The shaper will take up exactly the same space as your router table, so at least as far as crowding the shop it won't make a difference. I have the MiniMax shaper (which is where this thread started, right?) and I'm very happy with it. The routers still get used often, but not the router table.
I'm pondering over the DC system for my shop, and your comments are quite in line with what I've been thinking. At least a 3HP unit, 8" main line and 5" branches to each station. I've got the option of putting the unit underneath the shop, which saves space and makes a really clean setup, but it complicates things also - the need to return air to the shop, an alarm system to tell when it's full, etc. I'll need to decide soon...
Timberframe is too expensive here for me to use it for the shop. I don't have money to burn.
regards, David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
David,
My dust collector has an 8" intake which I reduced to 6". I ran the main line through the shop at six inches reducing to five at each down turn to a machine. I considered running my air under ground as well ,but I wasn't really firm enough in the beginning as to where each tool was going to be positioned. I found that, for me at least, it was just to difficult to figure out where each machine would be best positioned until I actually had the machines in the shop. I of course built it with a vaulted sealing with no pillars to encumber the work area.I also built my walls to a ten foot height which makes it much easier to move lumber and sheet stock around and this also made it more practical to run my air overhead. I don't think it will be necessary for you to run an eight inch line unless you plan on running two or three machines at a time. Six inch should be sufficient. In the beginning I wasn't certain if 3 Hp would be enough, but it has been more than sufficient. The sales person who originally sold me this unit was pretty confident that I could get by with a one or two HP system but I thought if I was going to err, that I'd do so on the side of more air than less. I also put in a ,through the wall, air conditioner as it gets fairly hot here for two or three months out of the year, as I would suspect it does there as well since we live in similar Mediterranean climates. I would have built my shop larger than the 600 sq ft but was restricted by our city building codes. Another thing the ten foot walls have allowed me to do was build a mobile lumber storage rack that stores my sheet stock on end, thus reducing the foot print. I'll send pictures if you'd like. Didn't have a very good day today. I cut up a 1/2" sheet of pre-finished ply to make four drawers. Problem was the ply wood was of inferior quality. It looked good at the lumber yard, but when I went to cut it up just about every piece warped and twisted,so for me it just wasn't usable as quality drawer stock. I'm taking the pieces back to my local supplier with a complaint. Hopefully they'll compensate me for this unusable crap. It's hard enough to build drawer boxes with straight and true stock, with out the complications of twisting and warping. Hope your day went better!
Danny
"I'm aware of alternative ways to cut dadoes using a router or a shaper. Are there other ways you make these cuts, that I may not be aware of, in the UK or Europe in general?"
I suppose it all depends on what you mean by a "dado". In British terms a dado is a chair rail! A recess running along the edge of a piece of work is a rebate. And a groove across the width of a piece of work is a housing. About the safest way to make housing joints is with a trenching or dado head in a radial arm saw - much safer than using an unguarded table saw, but as we predominently use chipboard, MFC (melamine in US parlance) or MDF in the UK for carcassing all of which are weakened by housing joints, then biscuits, dowels, Festool Dominos, loose tenons and toeven carcass screws make more sense to production woodworkers.As dado heads being safe and Europeans being scared of them, well, not really. There are other safer, faster, more accurate and cheaper ways to joint timber than using dado heads, but the EU safety councils do take a dim view of dado heads because statistically whether some like it or not they are the cause of more accidents than straightforward saw use. But that's mainly because dummies insist on using them without guards....
We've had that discussion many times over here about the proper names of the various grooved cuts in lumber and sheet stock. When are they to be called slots , dadoes, housing, rebates , rabbits, groves etc. Actually I haven't ever heard the term rebate or housing used over here to refer to a dado type cut, so I suppose those all vary from language to language or culture to culture or it could this be another one of those things we Americans have dummied down or changed since we left our European mother countries, like we did the metric system , which I happen to prefer.
Interesting to hear you mention the use of a radial arm saw with a dado head on it. Radial arm saws went out of favor here many years. In fact I don't know any one that even owns one. I owned one at one time but that was more than 20 years ago. Here, they have proved to be inaccurate and dangerous,for the same reasons you stated, especially with a dado head installed on it. I'm not sure just what you said since in one sentence you said it was the safest way to make housing cuts then in another sentence you said there are safer ways.
Edited 10/12/2009 8:14 pm ET by brownman
Brownman,
I own a RAS - but I agree with all you say about them. So - I set at accurately at 90* and do nothing with it except crosscuts. It sits midpoint on a 16' bench and is accurate enough to crosscut wide pieces if I by flipping them.Two people, an American and a Brit, are admiring a beautiful automobile. The American says, "I love the silky lines on the hood."The Brit replies, "No! That's the bonnet."Trying to avoid an argument, the American says, "Don't you like the smooth way the trunk tapers off?"The Brit replies, somewhat upset, "Don't you know that that is the boot, not a trunk?"The American says, "Don't YOU know that we Americans invented the automobile?"The Brit says, smugly, "Yes, but we invented the language."Frosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
Frosty,
Funny and so true! I actually have a soft spot for the Brit's as I spent several years in the Midlands back in the 70's. And now I'm loving all the reality TV shows that have come our way from there and Cat Deely's not to bad on the eye's either. Happy woodworking!
Danny
With respect to MM, I have a FS41 Elite S J/P and a T55I shaper. I used to have a Felder CF741SP combo machine but the combo thing didn't quite work out for me so I went back to separates. The J/P portion of the combo wasn't a problem for me. For the slider, I went with a Martin. I am not familiar with any of the specific machines you listed however, I will offer the following based on the equipment I either currently own or have owned in the past.
J/P: The MM and Felder are comparable machines and any difference in performance is neglible. The finish of the tables are equal. The MM cabinet finish is not quite as refined as the Felder but the Felder has plastic trim pieces and the MM does not. The Felder combo had a number of loose cables laying in the bottom of the cabinet where the MM seems to be built like more of an industrial unit with wires routed through covered wireways or neatly tied to structural components and protected with wrapped covers. The Felder guard is much superior to the MM guard. The knobs on the Felder are much larger and easier to adjust. The Felder has the comfoguard available as an option which is very nice if you do a lot of edge jointing. The MM porkchop guard is cheesy plastic and wouldn't return fully to cover the cutterhead. I also got the MM Euroguard and it is also cheesy compared to the Felder (knobs were too small and hard to turn - I ended up replacing them). There are things I really like about both the MM and Felder J/P and if I could pick and choose the best of each, I would have the perfect J/P. I have never had reliability problems with either machine although MM did replace the thermal overload switch under warranty due to tripping.
Shaper: Again, the MM and Felder are comparable with negligible difference in performance. The general observations stated above are also applicable to the shaper. You will have more undernut capacity on the Felder than the MM machine if you get the interchangable spindle. The MM shaper (and I understand the combo) will have concrete blocks in the base as ballast where the Felder does not. The Felder spindles require greasing whereas the MM are sealed bearings. No problems in reliability with either brand.
Saw: I have no experience with the MM in this area. The Felder X-Roll is top notch and really hard to beat for the money. Same observations of Felder noted above apply to the saw. With respect to the Martin, it was not listed in any of the posts above and if it is within your budget, check it out - you will not be disappointed.
Hope this helps,
jsr55
I own a mm 16 bandsaw. I am very happy with it because of machine quality and HP of motor. No regets. They have a fair web site for setup demo. However, saw blades length is not a standard size so you have to order size from the internet.
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