Replies

1. 
   YesMaam27577 | Apr 18, 2009 06:16pm | #1

   It is important that the shellac be de-waxed, because other finish products may not adhere well if there's wax there first.

   And for what it's worth, blotchiness in cherry is, in my opinion, a perceived problem, not a real one. The blotches will even out as the wood photo-reacts.

   (And further, preventing/fixing them before they happen, will have the effect of eliminating the perceived problem, but creating a real one -- when the wood photo-reacts, the spots that you evened out, will no longer be even.)

   But note that this is one of those "your mileage may vary" kind of things........

   The meek shall inherit the earth -- if that's OK with you?
2. 
   saschafer | Apr 18, 2009 07:27pm | #2

   Shellac dissolved in methanol will work fine, but note that methanol is much, much more toxic than ethanol, even denatured ethanol. I certainly wouldn't want to use it in an application where I would essentially be filling the room with methanol vapor.

   You can get suitable solvents from the various woodworking supply houses. Hock and Behkol are two common brands.

   -Steve

    

3. 
   YesMaam27577 | Apr 18, 2009 10:36pm | #3

   Here's another thought for a solvent......

   Go to the local liquor store, and ask if they carry "pure cane alcohol".

   If they do, you're in like flint. It'll work great -- some say its the best alternative.

   (But don't be fooled into buying the 151 rum -- it's not anywhere near pure enough.)(At least not for shellaccing woodwork. Maybe for yourself when the work is done.....)

   Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
1. 
   philip | Apr 19, 2009 06:04am | #8

   "Go to the local liquor store, and ask if they carry "pure cane alcohol".
   That is quite amusing for me....During the years when Rhodesia was blockaded we used that as a base for replacing petrol-it was called "Blend"- and was fine.It was made from sugar cane.
   Then there was "Cane Spirit"- sort of like Vodka , quite potent and not too bad when mixed with Coca Cola.
   Then there was Vodka, and a number of other spirits and liquers, all locally manufactured, that had this stuff as the base. In fact the Vodka was labelled "Smirnoff" - and exported and continued to be made right up to around 2000when the present scourge set in big time.Apart from that, the original poster could use Bulls Eye Zinsser dewaxed shellac with less bother.Philip Marcou

4. 
   HowardAcheson | Apr 18, 2009 11:35pm | #4

   Dewaxed shellac is only a requirement if you plan to use an oil based poly varnish or any type of waterborne finish. Standard varnish--a nicer finish anyway--works just fine over shellac that contains its natural wax.

   Howie.........
1. 
   stewie | Apr 19, 2009 04:01pm | #10

   I understood all varnishes are oil based , so that none will adhere over wax from shellac?? Stewie

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 19, 2009 04:36pm | #12

   The traditional oil based varnishes will adhere just fine over shellac that still contains it's natural wax.  The problem comes with the addition of polyurethane resin that creates the adhesion problems.  Waterborne finishes with or without polyurethane also have challenges adhering to shellac with wax. 

1. 
   stewie | Apr 20, 2009 08:59pm | #18

   Thank you, Steve. I live north of Toronto , and nobody seems to carry Zinnser's 1 lb. cut or an Ethanol based product. I have some Shellac-Lacquor Thinner from Lee Valley that contains ethanol and isobutyl alcohol , so I can avoid the Methyl Hydrate I purchased from Home Hardware. Maybe I should just give it back to them. Is there any way of telling whether flakes have been de-waxed? I have 2 pkgs. ( from Lee Valley , I think ,) One labeled orange Shellac Flakes from India (looks quite reddish) and a smaller one that is quite orange ( made in USA). The finish will be an oil based varnish , so for this project , I can make my own 1 lb. cut ...wax or no wax.Stewie
   Woodworking is like golf....always a new way to screw up a project/hole. :)

1. 
   Jimurock | Apr 22, 2009 04:12pm | #24

   LV has stopped selling the dewaxed blonde shellac flakes, unfortunately.   Their orange flakes are waxed.  Wood Essence is usually given as a Canadian source for dewaxed shellac, but had an antiquated ordering system whereby you left your phone no. and the guy was supposed to call you back.  He never did, so I ordered from the US.

   In SW Ontario hardly anybody carries Zinsser Sealcoat (dewaxed shellac) but you can order it from Glidden/Dulux/ICI stores and a few others.  That's probably the safest way to go anyway, because the shelf life is 2 years, and a lot of stores carry stock a lot older than that.

   I use the LV thinner, though it's expensive.  They sell it only in Canada, I suppose because it's difficult to find any alternative here.

   Jim

2. 
   stewie | Apr 22, 2009 08:09pm | #25

   Thanks for the heads up on the 2 year shelf life of the Sealcoat .
   FYI If you are looking for Waterlox varnish , there is a dealer in Burlington. Exotic Woods on Industrial Drive. 335-8066.
   Other posts have recommended it as the best oil based varnish.Stewie
   The Sawdust Shop

5. 
   recycler | Apr 19, 2009 01:53am | #5

   Type in Methanol MSDS into your search engine & read it - that should put you off using it.

   If all else fails buy a cartridge full face respirator with cartidges specifically matched to remove methanol vapour. - by the time you have sorted all of that out you may have found it easier to get denatured alcohol.

1. 
   philjohnwilliams | Apr 19, 2009 05:50am | #6

   For that matter, try reading the MSDS for ethyl alcohol. People vountarily drink that stuff.

6. 
   philjohnwilliams | Apr 19, 2009 05:53am | #7

   I have used methanol for dissolving shellac flakes and it has worked fine.  I would heed the warnings about inhalation though, good ventilation is a must (as it is with the use of most  any solvent).

7. 
   RalphBarker | Apr 19, 2009 06:26am | #9

   A friend in West Virginia uses a shellac solvent he gets from a source in the hills there. He says it gives his projects a special shine in the light of the moon. ;-)

1. 
   bones | Apr 19, 2009 04:07pm | #11

   As an ol boy who was familiar with Franklin Co VA, I'd never use that for solvent for shellac.  There is some lines one should never cross! Liquid gold!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I did see a guy on the DIY channel that made instruments that did his final polish with everclear!   

   Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.

   Edited 4/19/2009 9:09 am by bones

1. 
   lwj2 | Apr 19, 2009 05:29pm | #13

   As an ol boy who was familiar with Franklin Co VA, I'd never use that for solvent for shellac.

   Yep, and aged for at least a half-hour in a Mason jar.

   Leon

1. 
   bones | Apr 19, 2009 06:28pm | #14

   As an ol boy who was familiar with Franklin Co VA, I'd never use that for solvent for shellac.Yep, and aged for at least a half-hour in a Mason jar.

   Leon

    

   If you wanted to get fancy some strawberries, damson plums, or peaches help age the product as well.  I was partial to damsons. 

    

   Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.

   Edited 4/19/2009 11:29 am by bones

1. 
   RalphBarker | Apr 19, 2009 07:57pm | #16

   "If you wanted to get fancy some strawberries, damson plums, or peaches help age the product as well. I was partial to damsons. "How does that compare to a drop or two of Vaseline Hair Tonic? ;-)

8. 
   dkellernc | Apr 19, 2009 07:11pm | #15

   Stewie - You don't say where you are (perhaps a country that doesn't allow sales of denatured alcohol to the public?), but I would suggest buying taxed grain alcohol (the 190 proof, or 95% stuff) to use to dissolve shellac before I'd consider using methanol (methyl hydrate).

    Besides breathing the fumes (which can cause blindness, liver, and kidney damage), it will also go through your skin.  Using small amounts of methanol for various purposes is OK, but the large volumes required for using it as a solvent for a finish is not.  One other property that methanol has that isn't so good is a very high vapor pressure and low boiling point - you could potentially build up an explosive mixture in an enclosed shop.

1. 
   stewie | Apr 20, 2009 09:04pm | #19

   Thanks for the graphic heads up. The shop is currently enclosed and I plan on keeping it that way. Think I'll give the Methyl Hydrate back to the Home Hardware. I live north of Toronto (On) and the locals just don't seem to carry either an Ethanol based product, a 1 lb. cut , or flakes. Stewie
   The Sawdust Shop

1. 
   PeterThomson | Apr 20, 2009 09:44pm | #21

   I'm in Calgary and haven't found a readily available source of DNA either.  I've used methyl hydrate (methanol) instead, without a problem.  I don't perceive it to be a horribly toxic solvent, from my perspective most solvents are "toxic" so I treat 'em all as such.  (Along the lines of "kind of pregant"...) 

   I just follow the same rules for methyl hydrate as I'd use with any other solvent... Follow the MSDS, maintain good ventilation, keep away from ignition sources, wear the right PPE.  I've only been brushing and padding shellac.  If I was spraying I'd need to step up another level of fire protection, but I'd have to do that regardless of solvent type.

   Cheers and good luck,

   Peter

2. 
   dkellernc | Apr 21, 2009 05:02pm | #22

   "I live north of Toronto (On) and the locals just don't seem to carry either an Ethanol based product, a 1 lb. cut , or flakes."

   Surely the locals drink alcohol (the non-denatured kind)?  Or is pure-grain alcohol not legal to be sold in Canada?  While I'd expect that any country would heavily tax liquor for drinking, here in the States the rot-gut "store brand" of 95% grain alcohol is about $8 USD per liter, which at least in my opinion is really inexpensive as a shellac solvent - after all, you don't need all that much, and a liter would finish several large pieces of furniture with 4 or 5 coats.

1. 
   stewie | Apr 22, 2009 03:19pm | #23

   Next trip to our Gov't run L.C.B.O. for a single malt :) I will check it out. I have found a can of Shellac - Lacquor thinner whose content label includes ethanol , so that may well be the ticket. I was looking at a can of Zinsser's primer , and got a small laugh to see "clean up with Denatured alcohol (methyl Hydrate)..." Looks like some pros don't know the difference.Stewie
   The Sawdust Shop

9. 
   old baldy | Apr 20, 2009 06:21am | #17

   Well Stewie, depending on where you live, there is an alternative alcohol that might be available to you. In rural areas, farm supply stores sometimes carry iso-propyl alcohol for disinfecting dairy equipment. It comes in 99% concentration, which is more than adequate for shellac (drug stores also sell the stuff, at 70% and 99%, at much higher prices; the 70% has far too much water to work with shellac).

   It is much less toxic than methanol (methyl hydrate), but is somewhat more toxic than ethanol (what is in beverages). Depending upon which store I go to, I can get it for anywhere from $17 to $20/gal. (Can. $$ ).

   Just a suggestion for your consideration....

   good luck!

   Ted

1. 
   stewie | Apr 20, 2009 09:08pm | #20

   Ted Thanks for the tip.Stewie