Replies

1. 
   migraine | Oct 01, 2004 04:42am | #1

   I would think twice about mdf moldings unless cost is the the reasoning for your decision.  The out side corners don't hold up as wall as real wood(or even finger jointed real wood).  The worst thing about this stuff is the mushrooming of where the nails are shot in(or screwed in in your case).  The preprimed surface has little to be desired, too.

   But then again, I used it in our home because cost was an issue.  Paid $0.25 Ln Ft.  for 2 1/2" base and casing.   That included shipping from SoCal to Wash state.  The supplier(Crosscut Hardwoods)  is a larger flooring distributer hwo has a truck that comes up from Calif once a week.  They buy all their mouldings from Saroyan hardwoods in Los Angeles.

1. 
   OverKnight | Oct 01, 2004 05:14am | #2

   Hmmm, I just bought $250.00 of the stuff.  Although this is the first MDF molding I've used, I've always liked working with MDF because it's straight and stable, and holds paint well.  It certainly seems much harder than the cheap pine I'm removing.  I hadn't thought about the corners, though.  Will the MDF mushroom even with pre-drilled holes for the screws?

2. 
   pagoda | Oct 01, 2004 05:45am | #3

   i do run a lot of trim and when ever i can get the homeowners to pay for solid wood i go with that. and for base... never! it will be trashed in no time. i also do a bunch of "re-trimming" new homes after the owners have been moved in for a while. most of the time i am ripping out ratty old MDF and replacing it with solid.

   -ian

3. 
   bravo659 | Oct 01, 2004 11:41am | #4

   Just putting my two cents. MDF is cheap, and not even wood. It is made out paper,  not wood. People thinks that MDF is the best material around, and is not. MDF is great in sawing, and machining, and takes paint well. But, I would go with another wood species for baseboard molding. For joinery, I use tightbond. They are tough and will hold forever. I prefer the tightbond over polyurethane. Pine is softwood, and not cheap material, but cost effective. Treat it well, and will last .

4. 
   bones | Oct 01, 2004 04:22pm | #5

   I finished my family room with the stuff and have regretted it. It was cheap, but looks it as well.  I did like how easily it took paint, but it's not much to look at. Long strait runs are ok, but the outside corners get scuffed (I have two boys), and look ugly. I plan on ripping it out this winter and replacing it with pine.  Hope you have better luck with it.

1. 
   OverKnight | Oct 01, 2004 04:42pm | #6

   Ouch...

   Thanks, dude, bravo and bones.  I have two boys also, and the 13-year-old builders-quality pine trim is all beat up.  The primed MDF I bought has a nice, fairly simple profile.  I admit that I hadn't looked much at the pine, solely because of how beat-up the current molding is, although the shape of it may also have something to do with its current condition.  I need to get the guest room done ASAP, so I'll probably use the MDF for that; it's a low-traffic area that my in-laws use when they visit (MDF is good enough for the in-laws, right? - kidding).  But maybe I'll go back and see if there's pine molding that has a similar shape.

   Thanks again.  Any thoughts on the nails vs. screws and caulk vs. adhesive/caulk questions?

1. 
   mlbfreestyle | Oct 01, 2004 06:51pm | #8

   I have not used mdf for anything, but I will comment on the thought of using pine for baseboards.  I would not use pine for painted trim; especially base.  I don't think it is hard enough.

   I have been using poplar for all my painted trim (I built and am now finishing the interior).

   As far as screws vs. nails.  I would not bother with screws.  Yes, they hold better but modern air-gun nails have very high pull-out resistance.  There should not be any load in trim that would try to pull it out anyway.  The one case I do see occasionly is of a piece of trim has to be pushed into a depression in the wall (the wall not straight).  In this case, I shoot two nails from either side of the stud at about a 45 degree angle to the face of the trim.  This provides a mechanical "key" lock of sorts that prevents the trim from pulling away.

   I have used my 15 ga. nailer on all sorts of trim (base, window and door casing, window stools, multi-layer casing, crown, etc.) and have had no failures.

   I will occasionaly add a bead of caulk to the top of the base after installation just to fill any minor gaps that did not close up when nailing.  I don't rely upon this as any type of adhesive, just a cosmetic filler.  I use a pastry frosting bag with latex caulk.  Scoot around the floor and use a damp sponge along with your wet finger to compact and shape the caulk for a nearly invisible repair.

1. 
   OverKnight | Oct 01, 2004 09:23pm | #9

   Thanks, Jackplane and MLBFreestyle.

   Jackplane, I was surprised at the votes against MDF for baseboards.  My feelings on MDF are similar to yours.  The MDF molding I bould seems quite hard, almost like masonite.

   I've liked poplar also, MLB, but I haven't seen baseboard moldings made with it.  I ought to look a little harder for it, I guess.  I will be investing in a pneumatic nailer in the future, but I wasn't going to invest in a nailer until I fixed all of the leaks on my air compressor.  In an ideal house with very straight walls, I'd agree that caulking between the molding and the wall wouldn't be needed.  Unfortunately, my walls aren't like that, even after considerable filling and smoothing with joint compound.  I think I'll bag the adhesive/caulk idea and just use a good paintable caulk, with whatever molding I end up with.

1. 
   nikkiwood | Oct 02, 2004 05:11am | #11

   Here are my thoughts:

   1) I would urge you (strongly) to use nails instead of screws. The general rule in renovation is to never do anything that can't be undone; and as you can imagine, removing baseboard attached with screws would be a nightmare.

   2) I would not use any caulk behind the base boards (as an adhesive), but as others have suggested, I would use a caulk for any spots where the baseboard does not hug the wall. I highly recommend "painter's caulk" (available from any home center) -- which is simply a latex caulk without silicone. It will blend in much better when painted, without the sheen that comes from any caulk with silicone.

   3) There are wear issues with MDF, but the secret to making it look right is the paint job. to look right (like pine or poplar when painted), you will need at least two primer coats and two finish coats -- with sanding between each coat.

   Any kind of finish nails will raise the fibers around the nail holes in MDF, and about the only thing you can do is sand over each nail hole, then filler the holes and paint the filler.

   4) MDF is admittedly cheaper, but I think it takes more work to make it look right than does any sort of solid wood.

2. 
   OverKnight | Oct 02, 2004 07:19pm | #14

   Thanks, Nikkiwood, all good points.

   I'll use finishing nails and painter's caulk, and I'll pre-drill the holes to limit mushrooming.  What do you mean by "wear issues with MDF"?  I think that the quality of the paint job is always key.  The primer coat on the MDF I bought needed to be wiped down with some sandpaper to smooth it out, which isn't a big deal, but it's surprisingly thick; I don't think I'd need to give it a second coat.

3. 
   nikkiwood | Oct 03, 2004 08:12am | #16

   RE: "wear issues with MDF"

   Just what others have said -- that MDF is more prone to chipping away at the corners and edges if someone bangs into it. Otherwise, I think it is actually more durable than either pine or poplar -- if for instance, a vacuum cleaner bangs into the flat surface of your baseboard.

   In fact a year or so ago I used MDF for flooring -- 2x2 and 4x4 sheets laid on the diagonal, edge banded with maple, and then varnished in the conventional manner once installed. It looks pretty spectacular, but it does dent more easily than either regular oak or maple flooring.

   Mainly, the reason for the two coats of primer is for the end and edge grain of MDF, which is very porous. I recently built a set of home office cabinets from MDF (client insisted, thinks MDF is more "green" environmentally than solid wood), which included doors and drawer fronts from MDF. I got the edges to look pretty good by first coating them with Kilz, then two coats of primer, then two coats of an oil based enamel. That's a lot of painting for my taste................

   BTW, he made his own baseboards from MDF, but didn't want to take the time for 5 coats -- so he did one primer, and two top coats. IMHO they look pretty shoddy. So taking the time to do a proper paint job makes a big difference, I think.

2. 
   bravo659 | Oct 02, 2004 06:01am | #13

   Yes, I must agree with you 100%. Poplar is good wood and inexpensive. I worked with poplar, and most people advises me that poplar chips on the edges and corners, even splinter. I used it and never did. But it is true to the letter Freestyle, takes paint very well and better for baseboard instead of Pine. Pine is softwood, and tends to damage after 2 years. Heavy traffic with kids maybe a year's life. Screws is the best fastener than nails, but using it on baseboard, you will need plugs then extra sanding, and damage it if not careful. Pneumatic nailers are the best, and I would use the nailers for baseboard installation.

   Thanks for the good tip Freestyle.

   Edited 10/1/2004 11:04 pm ET by bravo659

2. 
   DANL | Oct 10, 2004 10:32pm | #24

   You might try posting this at Breaktime. Seems like I've seen guys there use it, but maybe not for base. I like Polyseamseal. Even smells good--like very ripe bananas.

5. 
   jackplane | Oct 01, 2004 05:24pm | #7

   I have to disagree with most of the posts.

   MDF works fine as base, just be sure to use solid wood blocking for outside corners. It takes paint well, machines to a profile easily, and the face is relatively hard. That said, without  an air nailer, finish nailing often leads to mushrooming, so trim screws are a good idea.

     No caulk should be needed on the top molding. As mentioned, you could also rout a profile on the top edge instead of using molding.MDF is not made from paper, but from shredded wood. It is a useful product when applied right.

1. 
   bravo659 | Oct 02, 2004 05:55am | #12

   Well, I hate to disagree with you, but it is made out of paper. Where you got your information, I really don't know. I am a skilled carpenter local 157 for 20 years.  We work with  finish trimming in all wood species.  MDF has not an inch of wood in it. Medium Density Fiberboard. Tells you everything. No wood chips. Wood chips are found in particleboard, waferboard, and compressed wood, not MDF. Sorry!

1. 
   TomFerreira | Oct 03, 2004 06:36am | #15

   Bravo,

   I guess it depends on what you define as paper, but the process starts with pulped wood chips.

   http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch10/final/c10s0603.pdf

   TDF

   Edited 10/2/2004 11:38 pm ET by Tom Ferreira

1. 
   bravo659 | Oct 03, 2004 08:58am | #17

   I owe an apology to JackPlane about the MDF manufacturing. I have no prove in order to corraborate my assertions about MDF. Last year in the New Yankee Workshop being a TV show in channel 131 by Norm Abram and his associates and by the Woodworking Association rendered a program about the making of MDF which was made out of recycled paper. Paper in my definition would be newspaper, ream of paper, and so forth. What you showed me is something that would shut my mouth. I am glad that you bought this issue to my attention. Like I said I owe an apology to JackPlane about the manufacturing of MDF. It was unbelievable that the program actually used paper pulp then compress it to a machine and used of resin to hardened the MDF. There is no question in my mind that the reports aren't true, but it is true. Manufactured by wood chips, indeed it is. Again, I thank you for your information. I saved a copy for my archives. I guess you can manufacture MDF with both wood chips and recycled paper.

   Even though, I would not use MDF for anything in a house, unless a customer wishes to use MDF. I would truly use MDF as a jig or template. Hey Tom thank you again.

   Edited 10/3/2004 2:00 am ET by bravo659

   Edited 10/3/2004 2:01 am ET by bravo659

2. 
   bravo659 | Oct 03, 2004 09:05am | #18

   I wanted to apologize about the manufacturing of MDF. Tom pointed out that is made out of wood chips and corroborated his assertions by a report from the EPA. If any thing, see my response to Tom Ferreira of how I got to know about the paper manufacturing to MDF.

1. 
   jackplane | Oct 04, 2004 11:41pm | #20

   no worries.

   Ain't mdf beautiful?     jus kiddin'

1. 
   bravo659 | Oct 04, 2004 11:48pm | #21

   don't get me wrong, working with MDF is the best thing round other than hardwoods. But I really dont' like using MDF because if used in an area like kitchens, baths, or livingrooms with high humidity in the winter, or someone bangs into it, then it damages. But, routing, sawing and painting MDF comes with a beautiful finish and profile.  Not a problem.

   This is a forum that is great to use, and learn more and more about carpentry. Even though, I have 20 years of experience, I still don't know it all. Im still learning the process until I depart from this world.

   Edited 10/4/2004 4:49 pm ET by bravo659

1. 
   cfcanter | Oct 10, 2004 07:55am | #22

   OK for a newbie who is going to learn the hard way - OJT while reading books.

   I'm looking at installing crown molding, painted in greens or orange (whatever the wife chooses).  I'm planning to buy a good chop saw, probably Makita or Bostch.

   Is wood or MDF recommended?  Ignore the cost issue...I'll pay the extra for whatever is easiest to work and looks good.

2. 
   bravo659 | Oct 10, 2004 07:14pm | #23

   Most people are choosing MDF because it costs less and good to handle other than other hardwoods that are recommended for baseboards. Personally myself, I would use poplar, pine or oak. Oak is the hardest of all hardwood but best looking after it is finished for baseboard, or anything that you would like to use it for. Poplar is inexpensive and works good for baseboard moldings, takes paint well, machines good when cutting poplar. Software as pine is the best for baseboard molding, takes paint but needs a primer because it soaks up the paint quickly. It is your choice of woods. As for myself, i would pay the extra for a quality baseboard molding, I would pick oak. In my house I currently have pine. No problems whatsoever, and I did not paint it because i like the look of wood. I used tung oil for the finish and its great. Crown molding is definitely hardwood. I spoke about baseboard, but also applies to crown molding. If you are building furniture, I use oak for face frames as well.

   Like I said before most people are turning to MDF because its cheaper and easier to work with, and takes paint very well. I must agree with them, but I still use hardwood for baseboard, longer lasting wood. If you have kids hardwood is the best solution. Because with MDF, you must replace it after a year or two. Hardwood needs no replacement for years to come. Must home centers carries oak, pine and poplar. The cost in Home Depot for pine would be 5.95 per bd.ft., poplar 4.95 per bd.ft. and oak or maple stems from 6.47 per bd.ft. and up. I talked about baseboard but it also applies to crown molding.

   Almost forgot, purchasing a Makita or Boch they are both professional machines. They are powerful and reliable. Must use all  precaution when using these powerful machines. They are expensive but will last. What you want is precision. I personally use Ryobi, inexpensive but reliable and still operable for two years. I use it almost everyday.

   Edited 10/10/2004 12:17 pm ET by bravo659

   Edited 10/10/2004 12:20 pm ET by bravo659

6. 
   mike4244 | Oct 02, 2004 04:21am | #10

   I have made my own simple baseboards from mdf all the time. I usually rip sheets to 5 1/2" and install a pine or poplar ogee on top. I never had a problem with mdf getting scuffed up or similar problems. I probably have installed two or three thousand feet of it. I have found that spray painting is the best way prime mdf.

   I use a good brush ( purdy ) to finish coat it. The top edge of the base should be either jointed or lightly sanded ,the ogee when installed  does not cover the entire base . Saw marks will show if not sanded. I have never install a factory mdf molding, I would think that the mdf I use and the factory moldings are manufactured to the same specs. This has me wondering about all the posts that knock mdf moldings,maybe I'm using a different product from the other posters.

   I biscuit join long runs of base, simple butt joint with biscuits and Franklin Tite Bond glue. I join the long runs first, leave it flat on floor until glue dries. Then sand seam lightly.Adhesive caulk not neccessary. I nail with a 15 gauge nailer. If you hand nail , predrill holes. Trim screws are fine but regular screws will be easier to install. I know they leave a larger hole, but I fill the nail or screw heads with bondo. When sanded and painted, nobody can find the holes, even the installer. Without a nail gun ,I personally would screw with 2 1/4" drywall screws, predrilled and countersunk.The heads of trim screws tend to break easily, that's why I don't use them if I can help it.

   mike

7. 
   IanDG | Oct 04, 2004 03:46am | #19

   MDF is commonly used in Oz and UK for baseboards and casings. They are both normally fixed with a bead of adhesive caulk as well as finish nails.
   As someone said here, I'd recommend wood blocks at external corners and the bottom of casings.

   IanDG