I’m dangerously close to building a couple of wooden planes, and I wondered if it is possible to fashion my own blades from O-1 or A-2 steel?
Surely it can’t be as straightforward as placing a bevel on a piece of tool steel and sharpening — or is it?
I’m also thinking about having a bash at some dovetail peening to prepare to make an infill. I’m not sure if this is insanity, or just an excuse to play with tools instead of doing something productive!
Replies
In David Finck's book about making wooden handplanes, he talks about making plane irons. Assuming you have the necessary machining tools and are comfortable doing your own heat treating, it seems possible.
Thanks! I'll take a look at that book.
Chris
Christopher,
You might want to look for a book called The Making of Tools, by Alexander Weygert.
Ray
"Surely it can't be as straightforward as placing a bevel on a piece of tool steel and sharpening"
------Only if the tool steel is already hardened, and you do not have to drill any holes in it, and it is already the correct dimensions---- Then all you need to do is grind the bevel without over heating it.
"I wondered if it is possible to fashion my own blades from O-1 or A-2 steel?"
---You have no experience/haven't done this before therefore I advise you to use O1 which you get in the annealed state, is already machined flat so you order the thickness you want. If it is a small blade you could experiment with heat treating it yourself- the instructions are often on the wrapping paper . I advise you to get it done properly by a professional who has the right facilities-rather than do a hit or miss effort -the blade is only as good as the heat treatment.
Forget about A2- costs more, you cannot heat treat it at home.
Dove tails peening? Make them fit first , then you will see all the ins and outs...Philip Marcou
Edited 11/7/2008 11:39 pm by philip
Philip-
Thanks for the advice. I did stumble upon an interesting website called "A woodworker's guide to tool steel and heat treating" and it had some great instructions for hardening/tempering O-1 steel. It seems that I should put this on hold until I get a small gas forge that can take me up to 1500 F.
Nonetheless, I think I will work on a wooden mitre plane and purchase the blade.
I've looked at the planes on your website many times -- absolutely stunning.
Chris
Hi Phil
Did you get the stuff I sent you on decarb.
John
Christopher,
I highly recommend Finck's book on making handplanes. In a recent FW, he also had an article which covered most of what is in the book, but in less detail. Hardening and tempering the blade is the hardest part of making a blade. It gets harder when you are dealing with blades with more mass (plane irons vs chisels). Personally, I would rather buy a blade than make one. However, if you look hard enough, you will find a good supply of tool steel that has already been treated and only needs to be shaped accordingly.
The recent trend seems to be leaning towards thicker blades. Can anyone touch my 1/2" thick blades? And to what degree of overkill is that?
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
ChrisI've been happy with Hock blades in my wooden planes. Even regrinding (PITA!) some for special use.But a 1/2" thick plane iron? That is something I'd like to try!Rich
Rich,
If you think that regrinding an edge on your 3/16" or 1/4" thick blades is a PITA, don't even try a 1/2" thick blade.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I think you are right on the make-vs-buy decision at this time. I'm going to make the wooden mitre plane with a purchased blade and go from there. Thanks.
Chris
Chris
It's relatively easy to make a decent blade. It is exceptionally difficult to forge an outstanding blade.
Our swordsmiths go through many years of rigorous training before their blades go into production.
Chris
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
Chris,Well that's a very interesting Web site, Chris. It's the first I've ever heard your company's name. I think your products must be the very essence of "niche market." I wonder if you would answer a few questions?This is directly from your FAQs page:"7. Why are your blades so expensive?Comparing the cost of our blades to today's after-market blades is not a fair comparison. Our blades consistently outperform any blade on the market. This performance boost comes at a price. Our blades are significantly more difficult to manufacture than any blade currently offered for Stanley Bailey planes. When compared to high-end Japanese plane irons our planes irons are offered for a price that is up to 10 times less than a comparable plane iron."What do you mean, "Our blades consistently outperform any blade on the market?" By what test(s)? What criteria do you use? What other blades have you tested your blades against? Where is the data? Who uses your products?"compared to high-end Japanese plane irons our planes irons are offered for a price that is up to 10 times less than a comparable plane iron."Your plane irons for Stanley planes range from $60 to $230. Do you mean that Japanese plane irons range from $600 to $2300?Rich
Edited 11/11/2008 11:38 am ET by Rich14
Rich,
We spent a lot of time designing objective tests (hardness, toughness, dynamic response, etc); we worked hard to improve accuracy, precision, repeatability, reproducibility, the whole MCA thing. We also gave engineering samples to very experienced woodworkers.<!---->
It is my observation that after the blades reach a certain quality, the feedback from the hands-on tests is more valuable than objective numbers (objective is not quite as stright-forward as it may appear). Anybody who has dealt with professional audio knows that at the high end there are things that are extremely difficult to capture in numbers. Call it a Chan (or in Japanese zen kind of thing if you want.
So, we performed subjective blind tests and subjective test where we fully disclosed the origin of the blades. Initially a few of our testers were very opposed to anything made in China; I am a big fan of hostile tests. Under these test conditions, our blades out-performed all other commercially available blades.
Some testers chose to publish their results here as well as in other hand-tools related fori, other testers prefer not to be associated with any commercial entity.
Chris---
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
Chris,That's one MIGHTY evasive answer.Your product is light years better than the competition, but the qualities you insist are there are so "difficult to capture in numbers" that you have no numbers. Hmmm. And that's a situation akin to high end audio? Well THERE's a field known for BS and snake oil!No numbers. No pictures. Lotsa talk. No walk.No data. So where are the subjective reports? Tell you what. I can give you subjective reports for any brand you want to name that will swear to the heaven THAT product blows the competition away for now and all time. So much for subjectivity. I guarantee you the competition thinks your product is trash and has their own experts to "prove" it.You "gave engineering samples to very experienced woodworkers." That's nice. For what? Christmas presents?What the heck are "engineering samples?" Where are examples of work these "very experienced woodworkers" did with those engineering samples, compared to their work done with other blades. And what credentials did these folks have, anyway?You're a big fan of hostile tests? Sorry to hear that. Do you mean rigorous tests? Again, if you did tests, WHERE ARE THE RESULTS? In any form you want to present it if your people are numbers-challenged?C'mon, Chris. Some testers published their results here? Here? WHERE?"as well as in other hand-tools related fori."Huh? Fori? Do you mean they published at other Web sites? The plural of forum is forums, or if you're speaking Latin, fora.They published in WHAT other forums?And some of your testers could not be persuaded to make any comment at all about a commercial entity. Really? But you still use their refusal to be "associated" with you as an endorsement that your product is superior to ALL other commercially available blades!ALL!WHAT other blades, Chris?For all I know, your blades could well be light years beyond anything else in the known Universe. But It all sounds like snake oil to me, at this point."Swordsmiths" laboring away, mysteriously, in some remote village in mainland China, using methods unknown to the Western world. Unknown!"Hand-hammering for hours to achieve unparalleled crystallographic structure and to drive out all impurities."Swordsmiths!Wow! How romantic! The imagery is fantastic! The stuff of legends and movies. Your copy writer has SOME imagination! . . . It's been a tough trek into the mountains, in search of the mystic, remote, legendary, "cradle of sword making." Our Chinese guide hacks away the last few branches of jungle overgrowth. The mist parts at the edge of the clearing. We can just see an oriental man hammering a briliantly-shining sword on a massive anvil, his muscles glistening with sweat, the coals burning red-hot beyond the partially-open door of the furnace behind him. A temple gong sounds, muffled in the distance as the background oriental music swells. . .You are obviously legends in your own minds.Rich
Edited 11/11/2008 7:10 pm ET by Rich14
I had vowed to go a year without posting on knots, just occasionally reading this silly stuff (which seems to me to only very occasionally cross paths with the realm of hand tool woodworking) in the morning, but I can't help it - I can't stop laughing.Shows what can happen when you combine metallurgy and advertising. Personally I have beaten all my swords into plowshares. Except for my USN ceremonial sword which was made of Toledo steel. I can envision hordes of Spanish workers laboring away, putting centuries of knowledge and tradition into the making of that thing. It's a nice sword - there's no edge on it but the pointy tip is sharp and probably still has some of my DNA on it from where I nicked my earlobe trying to execute the sword salute from the Manual of Arms at some fricken' ceremony or other. Little drops of blood dropped slowly from my earlobe onto my dress white uniform. Ahhh,...those were the days,....nothing like shedding blood at a good, rousing ceremony while the band plays "Anchors Aweigh,"..."Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Ed,Glad you got a laugh.Rich
Rich,
we also balance ying and yang and make sure that all wu xing (five elements, metal, wood, water, fire, earth) are in harmony after practicing a few hours of tai chi. Of course all tools are arranged according to the rules of feng shui using a ba gua that was passed down for twelve generations. And no, we don't fish old boat anchors from the bottom o f the ocean.
But seriously, Rich, if you look into the details on how for example Rockwell hardness is measured, much of the data you in sales literature lots like snake oil to me. NIST has some very interesting white papers on the topic. Toughness is even trickier, most vendors have their own procedure how they measure toughness, comparing numbers from different vendors is virtually impossible
Point well taken about my statement of comparison to ALL other blades.
Chris
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Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
>if you look into the details on how for example Rockwell hardness is measured<How much detail do you have to look into before you're getting into the realm of pure hype, Chris? There's a machine that pounds and diamond tip into a piece of metal and the amount of deflection is measured and compared against known values. A Rockwell hardness number is assigned. The machine is expensive and has to be calibrated. Big deal. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter that much to me.I have plane blades (and planes) from CLifton (which you compared yours to), L-N, LV, Stanley, Millers Falls, Sargent, Record, HNT Gordon, Hickory, and others from one to two centuries ago.You know, this is probably complete Plane Blade Heresy, but in practical terms, there ain't much more than a nickel's worth of difference in all of them, in terms of what you need to do to actually do hand tool work. I can grind a bevel, sharpen and hone all of them, and whichever one is sharpest and most recently honed is the one that works best.There, I've said it. Plane Blade Metallurgical Heresy. Go ahead and try to burn me at the stake, if you think you possibly can.Ed"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Chris - I've a question about your blades that I was not able to answer from looking at your website: With respect to the wooden plane blades, are they tapered along their length? All I could figure out from the description was that they were "approximately 1/4" thick", which leaves open the possibility that they're tapered.
I've been interested in finding a source for tapered, uncut (i.e., not slotted) plane blades for making traditional wooden planes (i.e., not laminated in the Krenov fashion), but I've not found a source other than Barrett & Sons in Canada. That might be a possibility, but the hassles with exchange rate, paperwork for NAFTA and the rather expensive shipping has stopped me from considering them so far.
As long as we're nitpicking, the Latin would be foris -- second declension neuter plural ablative.
Jim
Jim,Yeah. Well we all knew that anyway . . .Cheers,Rich
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