Has anybody here ever made their own plane blades using O1 steel? I have noticed that I can get O1 bar stock quite cheap and thought it might be an interesting exercise to make the blades for some wooden planes I am planning to build. My real question here is how difficult is it to heat treat the steel at home? Has anybody done this, and if so what were the results? Is it worth doing or will I be wasting my time?
Any advice from those with experience will be greatly appreciated
-pjw
Replies
Johnny Kleso has a website Rexmill.com which has the information you are looking for.
Phil,
That is a pertinent observation:flat ground oil hardening tool steel such as O1 is commonly available in a wide range of dimensions and is a reliable choice for uncomplicated manufacture of your plane blades.
The heat treatment is relatively simple and you may wish to do it yourself -but I would advise against it-and I don't care what the cognoscenti say about that. If you want the best from that steel and your own hours of labour, get the treatment done by a professional company specialist- the danged plane is only as good as the blade, after all.
Most stock that I have purchased comes wrapped in paper which bears the instructions for heat treatment and shows the temperaturse and times needed for a range of hardnesses , and the annealing .
I include here a chart which has interesting information and comparisons between different steels. You can see that O1 is plenty good, others may or may not be more suitable for woodworking purposes, but none are any good if the heat treatment is cuffed-no matter how simple it may look.
Go for it and let us know what happens, and feel free to ask any questions.
P.S. A heat treat company will also reliably test and tell you what hardness has been achieved.Philip Marcou
Edited 9/28/2008 3:09 am by philip
Philip,
I noticed that O1 and A2 have the same grain size. Wouldn't this mean that that they are capable to attain the same level of sharpness? And D2 even more?
Best wishes,
Metod
Hi Metod,
In theory , yes, provided the heat treatment was done to preserve that. However, the detractors , who have their own agendas, will maintain that the supposed better edge holding ability of more wear resistant steels such as A2 and D2 is more than offset by increased sharpening difficulty, since they relate "wear resistance " to "abrasion resistance" where "abrasion" = sharpening.
I have found no difficulty in sharpening either A2 or D2 at all- maybe I have magical stones or diamonds plus kerosene addiction? There may just be a slight difference in the feel of the steel on the stone/plate or whatever, compared to O1.The other thing is that I prefer to hone a secondary bevel which means that there is only a narrow width of steel to abrade-so it takes less time and effort. And that is one of the reasons why I prefer to use a simple honing guide like that Eclipse , to maintain the angle effortlessly and save time and steel in the long run. Seems daft to go and grind a hollow just so that there is less steel to hone....And if you hone free hand you will surely keep increasing that angle-I know because I have observed it first hand on skilled factory workers who swore they were honing at 30 degrees until I made a 60 30 90 triangle from masonite and checked them.
So when is the court martial?Philip Marcou
Hi Philip,
I have A2 in my LN's and three Hock irons (two block planes and #4 Record). I never noticed any difficulty in sharpening them. Some kerosene fumes (I better not search for a bland smelling lamp oil) might make it (smell) even easier. Hmm, my next batch of irons, should/when it happen...Best wishes,
Metod
Greetings philip,Have you a suggestion for a source for new (as apposed to old saw blade or file) water hardening steel in the annealed state. I have not found a source and I get tired of using old files. I know it can break or chip. Before I found out about plane maker's floats I was heating files, bending them to a similar shape and re-hardening by heating with a oxy/acet torch and quenching in water. Used them on metal surfaces after brass brazing to join. Worked great. Some would break but I did not anneal because I wanted them as hard/long wearing as possible. The flux left near the joiints even after sand blasting was hard on files.A few years ago I ground a nice hefty marking knife out of a file. Reminiscent of the Japanese one sided marking knives that come in pairs. Hollow ground one side for easy sharpening. That whole side is flat. The "half round" side I left on some double cut to help grip. Annealed to straw color. Polished flat and sharpened wedge faces to a mirror finish.
Offhand I don't know any source for annealed W2 but I Googled "water hardening steel-W2" and there are a number of companies listed there.
I have never used it but you may want to contact Larry Williams as I think he uses it. Tell him you hate A2 and D2 in particular, love O1 and he will start purring- don't even mention the words "bevel up " either.(;)Philip Marcou
Phillip,
If you would be so kind to list exactly what you are looking for in tool steel and what condition you want it in, I will check through my sources and post company names and contact information. In my part of PENNA., there are plenty of tool steel distributors and more importantly, manufacturers of the same. I corresponded some time ago with Larry Williams, but I did not hear back from him.
I regularly buy A2, S7, D2 and carbide (carbide is purchased near finished). I do some heat treating in house, but the majority is outsourced. But I only know materials for my industry, hence this post.
Tony Z.
A big thanks to everybody who replied to my post. My main interest in doing this is (aside from maybe saving some money) is mostly just to know that I have tried it. I will do some more research (thanks to those who made book and article suggestions) and then give it a go.
-pjw
Philip, I have heated treated O1 many times, with great success -- and great failure. It is difficult to control the temps accurately, but a neat thing to do. That's where the pro shops have the edge on you. I recommend that you try it, if you don't have a lot to lose. But don't experiment on some pricey tool that you don't want to mess up. I think that understanding metal working has made me a better woodworker. I have made some neat tools that I enjoy using, and now better understand how to care for them.Woody
Thanks Tony.
The one that my local suppliers said they couldn't get (easily) is A2.
I would use it as 2.5 inch or 63 or 65 mm width by 1/4 inch or 6mm thickness by short lengths which seem to be up to 3 feet or so. In the annealed state ofcourse. They also say they can't get it in small quantities, which seems strange.
I would be grateful for company names and addresses, so I can look them up.Philip Marcou
Phillip,
I'll see what is available and send you a private email.
Tony
Roc -
A good, convenient source for alloy steels of almost any type is McMaster Carr. One a per-pound basis they are a good bit more expensive than buying the same thing from a wholesale alloy supplier, but they sell it in small sizes, annealed, you can order it with a credit card, and they ship to just about anywhere.
If you're just going to make a few blades, paying a bit extra for the steel shouldn't make much difference.
dkellernc,>McMaster Carr
Thanks. Small quantity option is desirable in my case.
I recently cut up some 1/4" O1 stock to make some 'prototype' woodies. I had them heat treated at a local facility - they do up to 55 Lbs for $50 (their minimum charge).
They charge more for A2: $55 for up to 25 lbs. If you want to follow up with cryo, it is (for the same poundage) additional $60.
Unless you are really interested (just for the sake of trying/doing) in a DIY heat treatment, asking around might be worthwhile.
Best wishes,
Metod
Not trying to disagree with anyone as experienced as Philip but just recounting some of my own experiences. I have made knife blades and a spokeshave blade using a small mapp gas torch for the heat source. I have made molding plane blades using a larger propane torch for the heat source. And I have made a 1/4" thick bench plane blade using a simple home made forge burning charcoal. All the blades were quenched in used motor oil. Most were quenched when they became non-magnetic, however I have also used the method shown in Larry Williams excellent DVD. In addition to the above I have heat treated a set of blades for a Stanley 45 that were made for me by someone else. I have also heat treated plane makers floats that I have made. All of the above were tempered in a home oven. Of all of the above I have had no failures. I have no way of testing the hardness of these blades, but they are hard enough for usage. The bench plane is a 60 degree smoother used on some particularly difficult Lignum with better results than any of my other planes. The only failure I have ever had was the first blade I attempted, I was led to believe that it was difficult to archive the necessary temperature in a charcoal forge and ended up burning the steel. I would say that there is an element of danger involved in any of the above activates and if you are not comfortable with them you might be better off having a commercial outfit do the heat treating.
Bill
philjohnwilliams,
If you can get a copy of the paper back (9"x11") Fine WoodWorking on Hand Tools ISBN 0-918804-53-1 ~$8 new it has several articles from the old FWW magazines. I searched and did not find an article on line here. Must be in the DVDs though. Look for:
Heat Treating Making (or fixing) Your Tools by Gordon S. Harrison
A Blacksmith's Bleak View of Modern Tools And how to go at hammer and tongs yourself by Anders Richardson
there are other articles of metal interest in this same book.
Another book of interest for the home crafts person if you can find it is:
Step-by-Step Knifemaking by David Boye ISBN 0-87857-180-9
or ISBN 0-87857-181-7 pbk
It is worth buying just to see David and Fran's work. Top shelf, world class knives. Allot for the kitchen with beautiful multi level acid etched designs. I can not say enough about how beautiful their work is ! Picture a cleaver and as it hangs on the wall it has a life like pair of peacocks with closed tail feathers flowing down a cliff or a castle scene , or Pan in the forest etched deep into the steel.
One advantage of the water hardening (Wx type) of steel over high-speed is can anneal it again, drill it to put riveted handles on etc then re-harden. Also I like it better the way it feels/sharpens.
Go for it ! If it fails make something smaller out of the part.
Be safe, think ahead, and buy some good welder's gloves.
Edited 9/28/2008 8:12 pm by roc
Roc,
"Step-by-Step Knifemaking by David Boye ISBN 0-87857-180-9"
That is the very book I have -and where that chart came from. Very inspiring book and caused me to make a lot of knives. I even had it leather bound, I was so enamoured of it.
Great pictures and diagrams, and shows how to do all manner of things with a BELT GRINDER...................Philip Marcou
>David Boye book
Cool !>leather boundmy binding is ok but the pages are coming loose. I should look into a binding job thanks for the reminder.>bevel up
Any particular place here I can look to get his views on bevel ups. Now I feel like I have been taking the easy way out by using them. Like taking the helicopter to the top of Everest or something (if that is even possible).
Edited 9/29/2008 2:25 am by roc
>>bevel up
Any particular place here I can look to get his views on bevel ups.
None that I can recommend-see, he doesn't like them .....Philip Marcou
roc, and philip,
A little book by Alex. Weygers, called, I believe, The Making of Tools, is one I have found to be informative. Basic, no-nonsense advice for setting up a forge, tools, stock selection, shaping, heat treatment, all for the home craftsman.
Ray
Ray thanks for the tip on The Making of Tools !
You probably already have this book. It was a gift to me. But if not check it out; lots of pictures including some color pictures of the tools, swords and work being performed:The Craft of The Japanese Sword by Leon and Hiroko Kapp Yoshindo Yoshihara ISBN 0-87011-798-XNot a do it your self book however unless you have a few life times to practice !Man we are going to get thrown out of here if we keep talkin' metal. Wood working has been and is a great fascination for me I can not get enough of it.
Edited 9/29/2008 2:47 am by roc
"Man we are going to get thrown out of here if we keep talkin' metal. Wood working has been and is a great fascination for me I can not get enough of it."
Here is the harsh reality: You can't work wood without metal.....
(Keep that handy-might come in useful).I know little about Japanese swordmaking/metalwork, except that there is a shipload of tradition, mythology and often good results-no matter what the Cherubini says. I know more about Japanese motor bikes-which I like very much.Philip Marcou
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