I plan on making wood carriage doors for my garage. Door dimensions are approximately 9′ wide X 8′ high. I live in north New Jersey. What kind of wood should I use? I plan on painting them with exterior paint. Thanks for the input. JimSenior
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Replies
Well cured, straight grain Douglas Fir would work.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
Cyprus is light and very rot resistant, plus not too pricey. Most of the "carriage doors" I see are made using a kit where steel angle provides the strength. If it is for an overhead door then you really need the kit to simplify the instalation process. Doug Fir is a stronger wood, but heavier and suseptable to rot.
Mike
Mike, thanks for the input. The doors will not be overhead, but side hinged. Where have you seen kits? I was concerned about the Douglas fir, as being a softwood, would make poor joints over time. Jim
Cyprus is a soft wood as well, but the joints will hold if poportioned correctly. The kits I was refering to are for overhead doors. I've seen two aproaches to the hinged swinging doors. Most are welded steel frames with the lumber used only as a decorative overlay. Any garage door or gate company could weld up the frame for you, then you are free to use any design that tickles your fancy. The other option is to build the whole thing from heavy lumber. I've never tackled one of those but I supose you would need to use at least 6/4 lumber for the frames. This makes a very heavy door, using a light wood (I like the idea of cyprus) would be prudent. I can't say that I've seen a solid wood carriage door for a garage but I have seen a few on barns. They all had draw bored M&T joinery and were made from thick lumber.
Mike
Haven't built doors, but if this were a gate (done lots of those) the biggest issue after keeping the door from racking over time would be the post it is hinged from. I suspect that this will need to be reinforced and that you might also have to upgrade the lintle to stop the tops coming together (the real reason all those westerns had signs over the front gate of the ranch - we dont bother with gates in Australia 'cause the cattle would die of old age before reaching the property boundary).
Dave
I am assuming that that he know how to prevent racking. To make it simple look at a well built fence gate. There is a cross brace with the low end at the hinges and the high end on at the oppisite corner. This piece needs to be under purely compresion forces and should be notched into or tennoned into to upper rail and hinge stile. Beyond that if solid joinery is used on the rail style joints it will be around for 100 years.
Mike
Mudman
(have you ever seen one of these? http://www.uq.net.au/~zzlhiess/papua_new_guinea.htm - Joke!)
I figured he knew about racking on the actual door. As I said, I haven't done one of these and you just dont see them in Australia on modern garages. Many of our older garages the building itself has 'racked' (perhaps just falling down), particularly on the end where the carrage doors are hung. I assume this is because there is less stability due to the space taken out of the wall for the doors.
I have hung a lot of paddock gates, which tend to be 9-10' and made from 1 1/2" gal pipe for a light one. These rack, mostly from kids riding on them, and it is routine maintenance to swap them end-for-end every couple of years if they haven't been destroyed by stock.
Much worse is how the gate-post moves. we have three strategies to overcome this. You can erect two tall posts with a lintel so that a pair of gates work against each other (the American ranch approach). You can put it at the end of a run of strained wire - the tension in the wire overcomes the weight. Or you can build a strainer assembly that does pretty much what you describe for a gate except that the diagonal is wire under tension between two posts; in which case the posts are often quite light - say 6-8".
So, the reason for my comment was that the building might be just as much a consideration as the gate design. The original remark was probably a bit cryptic in its brevity.
Dave
LOL. Yea that was our family reunion 4 years ago. Heh heh. Actually the mudman thing alludes to one of my favorite sports, mountainbiking. Allthough I know that there are many unflattering connotations. Certaintly if these doors are made from solid wood each side will weigh 200 to 300 pounds. As long as the screws (lag bolts) pass through to the King stud it should be OK. The King stud will transfer the wieght to the header and the doors will support each other. I'd say though that if it is possible the sections of wall adjacent to the opening should be treated as shear walls.
Mike
Hah. I always figured "mudman" had something to do with putting up drywall. Like you are or were a builder, etc. Live and learn. :)
Funny thing is..... I have been doing drywall for the last three days. One of the trades I can't relinquish to a sub. One of my friends told me once that he had beed deleting my emails because he thought "mudman" was a porn thing! Since then I hesatate using it as a screen name, but probably not many people's minds are that deep in the gutter. The irony of my friends comments was that his email is Dseaman@-----. LOL.
Mike
Mike,
Too much exercise involved in that mountain bike stuff; and they dont care if they fall over.
Dave
I made some about two years ago for my garage.. Replaced the overhead door.. I used 1/2 inch exterior ply (outside of door) framed at edges with 4X2 white oak with 3/4 thick ply triangle at each corner. (In a recess so flush to frame).. Glued (stuff that does not melt foam) a 2 inch thick rigid foam down with 1/4 inch ply on top (inside of doors).. Heavy stainless steel hinges.. Three on each door.. (hinges cost me more than the door!)
Finished outside of door (after hung) with cedar..
Actually after installing everything I took them down and made a groove for a good weather stripping that is hidden..
Turned out pretty nice... I got bids on somebody doing it.. Cost would have been about 8 times what I spent...
Edited 11/7/2005 6:50 pm by WillGeorge
Do you have a picture? Sounds as if you've done a great job of combining good insulation, rigid structure and esthetics that are appealing.
Jeff
Hello Jim,
I actually work for a manufacturer and we build carriage doors.
Believe it or not poplar is a good bet. If you're going to paint them you can build from poplar, sealing them before assembly then paint.
Also you can build core with poplar and face with cedar.
Poplar is cheap and will last if properly sealed and painted.
just my 2bits
Thanks for the input. I was wondering if poplar would be suitable for exterior work, if sealed and painted. Think it is the way I will be going. Thanks again. Jim
I would strongly recommend against using Poplar. I have been watching the Poplar/exterior thing for over 35 years, and the conclusion is not good. In fact, I feel it is irresponsible as a professional woodworker to use it in exterior situations.
I know of two firms that used Poplar for exterior work (one windows, one doors) on the recommendation of a major State agricultural university, and both firms spiraled and died from the liability claims. The one company had a factory applied top flight oil-based paint system, and they still rotted after 3-4 years. Paint does not prevent the rot -this stuff will rot under the paint.
I personally have seen Poplar sprout mushrooms in as little as 18 months on properly painted shutters, railings, and such. When used in an enclosed situation, it will still rot, it just is not evident until things fall apart. The carriage house doors around here in Poplar are replaced in 1 to 5 years, mostly due to rot, but also due to failed adhesion/wood movement.
To those that point to historic, 200 year old uses of Poplar, I agree that it seems ok to use Poplar, and I spent years wondering why the old lasted and the new did not. My belief is that the old growth trees/uses have a very high ring density, and are all dark green/purple heartwood, hard as nails. The current Poplar is grown more like corn, the sapwood is encouraged, and the ring density is very low.
To use Poplar in an exterior situation is a waste of time and resources. The apparent cost savings are an illusion over time. Proper woods, far better suited for this use should be considered. Western Red Cedar, Cypress, Spanish Cedar, Honduras Mahogany, White Oak are some I have used.
The opinionated Dave S
http://www.acornwoodworks.com
Dave,
Well thanks for enlightening me.
Your breath of experience is far more than mine (looked at your site - beautiful work) with 35 years under your belt. The firm I work for actually does most of their doors out of spanish cedar and honduran mahogany. We do however use poplar on panelized doors and I was told that the door life is expected to be 10-15 years. I have not had a lifetime of experience observing this phenomena of the use and rapid degradation of new grown poplar, so I will humbly say I bow to your experience. It will make me think twice before throwing my two-cents into the pot next time.
J
Jabanks - Please continue to throw that two cents in anytime. It is the dialogue that we all value. I do come on a bit strong and often unwillingly stifle the exchange.
Besides, if you hadn't said anything, I wouldn't have had a chance to rant.
10 to 15 years may be ok for your Poplar doors. We have found the weak points are ground contact (often a maintenance issue), draining the horizontal joints in sectional doors, and keeping water out of panel plows on horizontal rails where v-joints enter.
Dave S
Thanks for the reply Dave.
As I said, I was glad to be enlightened.
Jim,
In my area there are still plenty of old garages( built in the 1920's)---with the type of doors you are looking for.
In fact I just rehung one of these doors this past June.
They ARE heavy---here the panels are commonly beadboard and the frame6/4---halflapped. simple doors, site built by a carpenter 80 years ago----still working in the worst of conditions.
Most of them have racked over time and now have some kind of tunbuckle arrangement to keep them in line.
If I built a pair now---I would probably Mortise and tenon the joints---and look at using beadboard plywood for the panels to save weight.
just remembered one of my first carpentry jobs was re-hanging doors like these about 24 years ago. My brother -in law and I wrestled with those monsters all day and couldn't get 'em to meet right.
My father-in- law came along ( very old school carp.) and rescued us with about 3 shims----took him about 30 seconds to accomplish what we COULDN"T accomplish in most of the day !-------24 years later I amazed MY helper AND the customer with the same trick---didn't realize it untill later----what a difference experience makes.
BTW--- I think a couple years ago Fine Homebuilding had an article about building doors using a " sandwhich" method that might help you out-----looked like it would greatly simplify things---AND strengthen the assembly.
Stephen
CYPRUS is an island in the Mediterranean.
CYPRESS is a tree.
It's understandable not having certain spelling skills but a woodworker ought to know how to spell the names of species he or she uses.
Boss, a correction like this will not make you very poplar with some of the folks who read these posts. It's oakay with me, but my dog wood probably bite you.
Cheers,
Ray Pine
Stephen, thanks for the feedback and insight. Good to know they held up so well. What I had in mind (hope the workshop/garage they are going on last as long - my first major building project). Do you know what kind of wood those doors you worked on were? Someone suggested cypress - but I imagine I will have a hard time finding it around north NJ. Think fir might be too soft. Think popular would work? Was going to do M&T joinery with 6/4 frame and 1X or plywood filler. Windows at the top. Thanks again for the input. Jim
jim,
I am in Akron , Ohio.
Here, in the 1920's a lot of things were made out of southern yellow pine
NOT that knotty, twisted stuff they turn into treated lumber for yuppie decks now-a days
but the old, pretty clear, high resin stuff.
I think the beadboard was fir.
the doors I see are very heavy----don't really seem to rot---but don't hold paint verywell either----so I am reasonably confident of a southern yellow pine guess on the frame.
I wouldn't use the syp I usually see now---wet, twisted, knotty
but just last week I saw some a a local yard that I would maybe think of using---maybe. It was remarkably clear 2x stock.
I was thinking about your project this morning. I would also seriously consider the sandwich method I saw in finehomebuilding within the last few years----- might even be the strongest way to go---and pretty straight forward.
If these doors are gonna be in a sheltered location----not a lot of splashback---and on a concrete floor----plus kept painted-- I MIGHT consider poplar if using the sandwhich method( really a simple lamination.
A lot of what I see are over brick floors or even just dirt floors---definitely wouldn't use the poplar there.
BTW---usually what I have seen is a failure in the hardware connection to the garage---not a failure in the door itself.
the ones holding up the best are not mounted with hinges on the butts---but with big hinges on the face with LONG screws right through the door casing into the frameing. If too short a screw is used--or no solid blocking behind the casing---the casing splits and the door sags. I usually replace the casing and add an additional stud right behind it and then put 3 1/2" screws right into the framing.
Stephen
I think you will have to search among the lumber yards in your area to find species that are suitable for outdoor use. The different woods available will vary from one region to the next. I live in MN, for example, and cypress is not readily available. Here, you can get northern red cedar at a decent price -- but otherwise it is one of the composites (like Miratec).I agree that poplar is not a good choice for exterior use -- no matter how well it is painted. And I would disagree -- sort of -- about Douglas fir. Years ago it was the exterior wood of choice around here, but it must be the straight grained variety (quarter sawn), and not the 2X material commonly sold in home centers. It would be a good choice if you can find it in your area, and it is reasonably priced compared to some of the other exterior alternatives. I can find it milled as exterior flooring, but it is harder to come by in other dimensions. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I agree with you about fir. Any choice of wood is a bit of a compromise- hardness vs rot resistance vs appearnace vs cost. Many high end exterior doors are made of doug fir- it is harder than cedar or cypress, not quite as rot resistant, but will do well if painted, is less inclined to split, has a fairly striaght grain. If I were building (painted) garage doors, I would probably use fir. I think I'd favor frame and panel construction with mortise/(floating)tenons at the rail/stiles. Fir would be a little bit lighter than other (hard)woods and would be a bit less susceptible to racking, although bracing would probably be a good idea.
Mahogany would also be a good choice, but a good deal more expensive. I confess I have a problem putting paint on mahogany.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I made a set of doors about a year ago, 8 ft wide by 7 ft high for the total opening. I used western red cedar for the frame, half-lapped the joints and secured with urethane glue (not that foaming stuff) and about half dozen screws per joint. The field of the door is also cedar 1x6 bevel edge set into dado, this floats.
As someone already stated, I used 3ft long iron strap hinges which made it easy to hang. Set the doors in the oopening and attach the hinges.
I remember the article in FWW or FHB on the built up doors. What I liked about those is they used a regular lock set to close -- I have one door with the pin into the floor, and use an iron gate latch.
The only issues I had is the right door stile bowed out about 1/4 in. in the center. Doors are relatively light, maybe 100 lbs each.
These are located on Long Island, NY and that week of rain we had did made them close a bit tight.
Edited 11/8/2005 10:36 pm ET by peakbagger
Edited 11/8/2005 10:44 pm ET by peakbagger
I built these last year. 5/4 SYP crossbucked and nailed. The door is 2" thick and hangs on old reworked cultivator shanks. Yes, they are heavy! The stationary hinge plate is lag screwed (3"0) into the edge of 2X8 PT casing. Lee Valley has a separate hardware catalog that list a lot of big hinges.
Joe
Jim,
There have been a number of discussions here and on Breaktime on this subject. I'm planning on building mine in the spring. I want insulated so am going with a sandwich approach. Doug fir (KD, straight grain) frame, 1/4" ply both sides with foam board in the middle, 5/8" redwood sided on front (recycled 50 yr-old fencing).
My design is based on this:
http://www.designerdoors.com/Studio/comm/details_overhead.htm
http://www.designerdoors.com/download/pdfs/DesignerDoors-Entrada.pdf
Mine will be bi-fold; planning on heavy duty butt hinges.
Wayne
Many years ago a very experienced painter told me "to prevent rot sand and paint all exposed wood with a good oil paint every other year", after about 14 years you would not need to paint again except for appearance.
LOL LOL LOL... Geee betwenne belly laughs I got it!
While Fir is considered a softwood...once it is seasoned it turns to stone. We have a lot of it here in BC and I love to work with it.
Does anyone have any good plans for making doors? I want to replace my doors on my shop.
Byron
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