I don’t know if this will be worthwhile to anyone, but as I’m making some panel doors for a project right now, I thought I’d take some pictures along the way and share the steps I happen to use. I’m not by any means suggesting that my way is the best way. Indeed, I welcome tips or posts about alternative means to the same or better ends.
I know these are really basic woodworking skills and that frame and panel doors are as common as dirt. So I’m not intending to boast or claim any of what follows is original. The reason I thought it might be slightly interesting is that I use mostly hand tools, and intend to show minor details that tend to be left out (probably because they are too obvious to mention) from most magazine articles on similar subjects.
Finally, I will plan on posting a step every day or two as I make the present door, as opposed to posting one single long description from start to finish.
So, on to today’s entry:
My present project will need four frame and panel assmeblies (3 for doors, and one that will be a drawer front). I am beveling the panel and incorporating a bead into the interior of the frame. Here is the first one complete (awaiting hardware) to give you an idea where the following steps are intended to end up:
As I begin the second door – the subject of this step-by-step – I first do a mock up right in the carcase opening using whatever scraps (and blue tape) are handy to arrive at the proportions:
I find this step very worthwhile as an extra 1/8th inch in width here or there can change the feel of a door significantly. The next step, also shown in the above picture is to mill some stock. Those rails and stiles are the correct width and thickness, but I leave them over long at this point for several reasons (horns for mortising; leeway in choosing optimal grain patterns; the potential ability to recut a tenon if something really goes wrong, etc.).
Next I use my plough/grooving plane (mine happens to be a Stanley 248 A) to plough grooves in all the frame members (her the members are about 3/4 so teh groove is 1/4″). Carefully mark the front of all members, and reference your fence on the same side of each:
I run beads, using my 66, full length on the rails:
After cutting mortises (in whatever way you prefer – pigsticker, benchtop mortiser, or drill press and chisel) I run a stopped bead on the stiles. The reason I bother to stop it is that it makes it easier to mark precisely for the next step (i.e., I can saw and pare to a knife line rather than to the bottom of the less precise quirk line):
In order to miter the bead, you need to rip out that bit of the stile, so I start by using the wheel gauge to mark a line the width of the bead and quirk around all three sides:
Tune in tomorrow for the next installment in “Making a simple door – woop de doo!”
Cheers!
Edited 12/18/2008 10:05 pm ET by Samson
Replies
Hmm, given the lack of any responses whatsoever, I take it this is even more boring and useless than I feared. <chuckle>
The only reason I didn't respond is because I had no questions, comments, or disagreements. Your post is informative and detailed. Please keep it up.
By the way -- what species is that? -- the finished door is gorgeous!
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
Thanks for the encouragement. There was no stopping me anyway! ;-)
All the wood is cherry.
Samson,
There was no stopping me anyway!
With a mug like that I aint gonna even think about it! Ye could use a haircut though.
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Samson,Not at all.Methods of work are always of interest! I may have done it, but that doesn't mean there isn't a nugget or two to be gleaned in one way or another. Actual woodworking is far better with morning coffee than tool discussions.Everything teaches. In my case it is sometimes..."Oh, yeah , now I remember, that's how I used to do it...now where did I put that thingus..."Besides, it's 18 degrees this morning here on the Oregon coast (not even the Orcas will show their fins) and your wood looks nice and warm! More pictures, More warm!Keep it up.Boiler
Thanks for the interest and encouragement, Boiler! Keep warm.
Not in the least lad, we all are awaiting with bated breath, just like we waited for the next Saturday serial installment of Gene Autry fighting the caped riders from another planet and their death ray that melted mountains.
I too will be using my #66 to excess as the future has a 13' kitchen wall that needs upper and lower cab's-lotsa doors -with those lovely beads. Right on brother. Thanks for the looks, Paddy
Thanks for the post; it is very clear and useful. I am about to try a raised panel and frame for the first time, using all hand tools, because that is what I have mostly. Now here is a real simple question that has been bugging me: How do I size the grooves in frame and the taper on the panel edges so that the panel fits and has expansion room but doesn't rattle around?Joe
In another couple episodes, I'll post pictures of making the panel, but the short answer is that I don't have the taper go all the way to the edge - instead, the part that goes in the grooves is more like a tongue.
Hmmm. Might be tricky using hand planes at my level of skill.J
Joe, I think you'll see that nothing I do is very hard, even for a beginner, and everything can be done by several alternative methods.
The main places that one can screw up on a door like this are: gaps where the rails and stiles meet and in fitting the tenons so that everyting is snug, square, and flat (all at the same time). The panel is not hard.
Sean,
Very nice writeups indeed! Sorry I didn't respond more quickly. I saw the topic, but didn't know it was you. Making frame and panel doors is a topic the is handled often and poorly in the mags. You are doing an outstanding job of relating how you have approached it with hand tools. You know I am given to overstatement (a matter of cultural heritage), but this may well be one of the most useful threads in the history of Knots. Your style is akin to that of the great Derek Cohen, with very clear verbiage and excellent photos. Your jig for cutting the 45 was a very creative move. I was about to use the old computer-geek term, and say it was a good "hack", but some people may not know that historically, a "hack" was a good thing, not a negative thing, at least among the geeks. If it was my exhortation that caused you to start this thread, it is the best thing I have done on Knots. SO - when commenting on someone elses work, it is considered good form to ask a question to show that you were really paying attention. Here is mine, and it meant seriously, not in jest. Why do you put the raised side of the raised panel on the outside of the door rather than on the inside. I think that when using plain wood, putting the raised side on the outside makes the piece look more interesting. However, when using figured wood, it is sometimes nicer to put it on the back side of the door. Of course, aesthetics is a very personal thing. My question is not meant as a put-down, but as a request for your personal feelings on the subject. Your idea of using a blue-tape mock up to get a feel for the effect of a design is excellent.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks, all.
Derek, your praise is heady indeed, coming from a master of the on-line article and all.
Mel, the short answer is: I'm a sucker for facets and how they play with the light. When you don't over-accentuate the field with a rabbet, I think the raised effect is subtle and pleasing.
I'd write more, but I have to go to an all day business meeting right now. See ya'll tonight with another installment. The next one will be full of shameful confessions of paring and such, so some of you may want to prepare to mount your high horses. ;-)
Sean,
"I'd write more, but I have to go to an all day business meeting right now."Do you work too?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"I'd write more, but I have to go to an all day business meeting right now." ????
I thought you retired!
WG,
I am retired. The quote is from Sean (Samson).
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel ,
I know you asked this of Samson but I'll throw my 2 cents in also .
Some doors are made with a raised panel facing in , in fact bead board doors made of solid wood is a good example. We need the thickness for making the bead whether it is actually T & G or only surface cut , this also adds structural integrity .
On the other hand a raised panel is a detail and defines a panel and usually takes more time and work to create , so if you want you can turn them in depending on the type of frame . Some stile and rail doors have the groove centered but many do not , such as a set of detailed stile and rail shaper cutters I use and is very common the groove is much closer to the back of the frame , if you put a raised panel in facing the back side the panel would protrude beyond the back of the frame , in most cases this would be un desirable and could interfere with other operations , the same can be true when the panel sticks out proud of the face .
The vast majority of commercially made S & R doors have the panel either flush with the face or like the ones I make slightly back from the face .
I hope this will shed some light for you Mel
dusty , I sand therefore I am
Dusty,
Great answer. I really was looking for ideas on the subject. The information you gave was very insightful. It could only have come from someone who has made a lot of "boxes". :-)I have always wondered why the woodworking mags have so many articles on how to make dovetails, and how to make M&T joints. Why not an infinitely long series of articles on whether the raised panel should face in or out? Maybe we could say that if you do "tails first", you should put the raised panel facing out, but if you do "pins first", you should put the raised panel facing in.Mel (always looking for something to get the troops fired up)Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Good post dear boy. Sometimes not all of us check in every day. Please continue. Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Hi Samson ,
Can you show how you cope or cut or pare the corner or the rails bead and could you show a picture of the rail ends ?
I think the expose is great , thank you for doing it .
I am sure FWW will want your stuff on their pages , bet you a donut .
Hey ,, it's tomorrow where is the next installment ?
dusty, a boxmaker
I have those pictures, Dusty. I'll post them in tonight's installment. The short answer is that I use a simple wedge jig to register the chisel in cutting the miters. Nothing fancy. Thanks for the post.
Very informative. Love to see people using hand planes for beading, grooving, etc. Can't wait to see the next post!
(Referring to the comment about few responses),...Nah it's good. The next raised panel door I do, I'm going to try putting a bead on the edge of the rails and stiles like that. I have the LN 66. I was wondering about something the other day but didn't think it worth the while to bring up here,....someone was saying that they thought the fence on the Stanley/LN 66 was too short,....I've found that once I get the bead started fairly well, I don't need to use the fence any more. Light cuts and very minute blade adjustments (for depth) after that point. I found that when I first got the tool, I was pressing too hard downward and too hard against the fence, trying to "do everything at once," i.e. define the cut and make it to significant depth all in one fell swoop (or just a few passes). Once I stopped doing that, and started using the "light touch" and "no fence at the finish" technique, it worked a lot better. Once again, it was a case of a classic/ proven-over-years tool self-teaching me how to best use it.
Take care
I too find the 66 works fine with it's fence, and many times (as you say once the profile is started) even without. In that first picture - the one of the complete door, you can see a bit of a curved cross member at the bottom. I added the large bead on that with my 66 using a curved fence (the LN one fits with some minor filing of the brass) to establish the line, but then taking the fence off to finish. In part taking the fence off so I could quickly (i.e., without repeatedly adjusting the fence from one side to the other) work from both directions as there was a grain reversal at one point in the board. It worked a charm. The 66 is a good tool.
Okay, so on to the next installment. In the last episode, I had marked the bit to be ripped from the stiles to account for the bead. Here is the saw cut.
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I deliberately saw very slightly wide of the mark, not because I can't saw straight or to a line, but because the cosmetic perfection of this join is so important and paring to the line is quick and easy, that this works out better.
Here is the quick paring operation:
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Now it's time for that miter. I made this simple jig to register my chisel back on. It allows for precise placement, when you clamp the jig and frame embers in a bench or tail vise, and a very accurate 45:
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Here it is in use:
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We have now completed the mortise half:
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Next, we will cut the tenon. Stay tuned.
Very nice Samson , extremely clear pictures good job .
I'm bringing a chisel and some wood tomorrow .
dusty
Hi Samson
That is FANTASTIC!
Keep it going.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Very nice documentation of a process -- keep it coming!
-Andy
Sam,
Pretty work, and terrific pics.
I have a question for you. I noticed that your mortise doesn't go all the way down to the corner of the miter. Why not extend the mortise to that point, and just let the depth of the groove in the rail determine the tenon's width? In other words, why cut a haunch on the inside shoulder of the rail's tenon?
Just curious,
Ray
I do that so I have less worry of excess glue getting to the panel, and locking it in. It still seems plenty strong. I suppose I could omit the haunch and instead just apply less glue on that lower portionof the tenon? Dunno, but these are precisely the sort of feedback I was looking for. Thanks, Ray.
Edited 12/17/2008 7:19 pm ET by Samson
Sean,
I am tuned and storing your stuff n my little black book of things to copy. I would ask a question but you've been so clear so far there isn't the need.
That paring jig is a good idea. I try to freehand stuff like that and it sometimes doesn't go purfeck. I must stop being lazy and do the necessary helper-jig.
Looking forward to more and to the finished piece.
Lataxe
A job well done, Samson. I too am watching along.
Ray's comment/question...The nice thing about the mortise extending all the way to where the mitered bead goes is for layout and execution. It removes some niggly measuring issues.
Lataxe fine sir. You, who live in the Land O' Preston, should find these items literally cast about like a child's playthings...
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I will note, however, the shop made ones I have made that sit astride of the rails/stiles work every bit as well.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Alas, I yam much too busy to go looking in the junkyards for those Preston things, attractive though the concept is (of having them jigs not junk-sorting). However, I know a bloke in New Zealand that could probably make thangs like that in shiny brass & steel, for a small fee.
It's one way to get him to stop inventing a new plane every week. Those chisel jigs are shurely very easy to make and will therefore be A Good Price. :-)
Lataxe
What am I busy at? Well, it's hard to say but the days seem very full. I'm sick of Adirondacks though, oh yes. (Nearly done oiling the 453,891 parts).
Mike,
"Ray's comment/question...The nice thing about the mortise extending all the way to where the mitered bead goes is for layout and execution. It removes some niggly measuring issues.
Quite so, my miter jig, below, even has a sliding adjustment so that the square end can be set on the layout line of the mortise, andthe 45 jig will allow one to pare down to end up where he wants to.
I made my jig not to straddle, so as to be able to miter broad things like case ends where a drawer divide enters.
Different strokes for different folks,
Ray
And I would like to add that I typically saw the bead before paring. Just how I was taught I suppose. Takes but one or two deft slices of the chisel.
The straddlers I have whipped out have been purpose-made and fit snug because they use cut-offs from rails/stiles for spacing between the sides. Which leaves them useless the next go-'round. But they are easy to make.
I like the sliding action, Ray.
Take care, Mikeback to paying the bills...
FWIW, I sometimes saw first, expecially if the bead is large. I find it takes about the same amount of time either way, and the results are the same in the end. I suppose if one were not careful with the chisel - tried to hogg off too much at onece, you might risk breakout which makes sawing a particularly good idea.
Mike,
You amaze me.
How do you have any time to do woodwork with the backlog of saws you have to make?
I have a suggestion: keep raising the price of your saws until the backlog becomes manageable. I think your saws are way too underpriced.Of course, I have no business experience, and the value of my advice is worth less than what you paid for it. Mel (just trying to find a way to get you more free time to do woodwork)Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mike,Ya know ders a market fur dem thingies. Fancy brass- ooh! maybe bronze with a ebony inlay
Bettr dood it before Grammercy or Thomas does :-)My Engleesh was better but this artic stuff needs to stay up in Portland, not down here.Boiler
Thanks for the post.
I'd much rather watch some one actually working wood and explain how they did it than listen to three or four people argue over which tool or method of work is better than another.
Bill
Hey Samson,
Got my first look at your first 2 chapters this morning.I must say very clear and in my case,very useful.
You do fabulous work,and it's great to sit in the front row of class,and see the master at work! Common or not the doors may be,but the fineness of finish is NOT.
In anticipation of the next chapter,(don't know where the ittacs came from!!!?)
Robin
You are too kind.
What I'm happy about is that the reports of my fumbling have elicited input from true masters like Ray, Mike, and others.
Samson,
Thanks for the project. I think it is a great idea. I've done a few raised panel constructions - but they were all 'motorized'.
Yours is a feast for the eyes, food for thought and an inspiration/nudge to do some.
A nice change too from the multiple 'verbosities' (mine included :( ) on the Knots.
Best wishes,
Metod
Thanks for the pictures and info. I will await further details.
Nice post! I for one wonder how you get such nice color in you pictures. Are you using special lighting?
Edit: I was happy to see that even a PRO (you, by my standards) is comfortable using a chisel guide. I 'think' you are holding the guide while paring the joint?
I mess up if I do that. I have to clamp my guide because I find it impossible to use a chisel unless I use both hands. One to push and the other to guide it. I guess I need to practice a bit.
Edited 12/17/2008 10:37 am by WillGeorge
Hey, Will. I don't use any special lights. Along with two large flouresents, I outfitten my shop with some salvaged track lights. Perhaps those are giving me better lighting?
And I'm not holding the jig when actually using it. I put it and the workpiece in a vise. It's important that it not move in use, so I thing a vise - or at least a clamp - is essential. So I'm with you on that.
Thanks for the post.
Cheers.
I was asking because you may have had some special trick you used.
Nice work!.
Great job so far!
A trick I picked up that makes paring after cutting your beads away is to clamp a block of the correct width to either side of the stile or rail. Gives you a point of registration and helps keep the paring flat, planar and square.
Also I have found it helps to have a sample piece morticed and tenoned on hand as a gauge to test how far back to shoot your miter cut. The miter template works so slick a body is tempted to keep taking buttery smoooth cuts leaving a gap in the bead miter.
DAMHIKT!
Great job on the guide, wish I had it a dozen doors and face frames ago!
David
Great tips! Thanks.
This is exactly why I wanted to post this stuff. I knew others would have good insights and alternatives like this. Good stuff.
On to the tenon. I find this the most challenging part of the process. The tolerance for a well fit tenon is less than the thickness of a sheet of paper. While masters and journeymen may be able to hit such tolerances perfectly off the saw everytime, as yet, I cannot. What follows therefore, is my method that allows some forgivenes if you stock, your markings, your mortise, etc. are not all perfect and predictable in everyway and in every case. This is not an assemblyline/interchangeable part process, but rather a "each mating is custom" process. I write for hobbiests, who want the satisfaction of working by hand without having to wait until they can saw like a journeymen to hope to succeed. My eye is to the result - a well fit tenon, gap free rail/stile intersections, and a flat square door.
To begin, I mark the shoulder and cheek lines with a wheel gauge. I intentionally mark the cheeks slightly wide (like the width of a thick pencil line wide; nothing drastic) so I can sneak up on the fit:
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My first cuts are the cheeks. I try to saw just to the waste side of the line:
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Here are the completed rips. Not exactly perfect, but they work.
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Next, as you no doubt knew, are the shoulder cuts. This is a really make or break line for a pretty joint, so I do not try to hit it right off the saw, but instead leave the line for paring:
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[This particular cheek cut looks to have been a bit crappier than usual, as that waste near the groove is on the thick side, but better too much than too little]
Next I start to work the thickness of the tenon down to size with lots of checking the fit in the mortise along the way. Remember too, that it's not just thickness, but centering, you need to be paying attention to - that is, the tenon has to fit the mortise, and do so such that the surfaces of the rails and stiles align. Various methods and angles of attack can be brought to bear for the intial thicknessing:
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Next, I simple hold the tenon to its mate (mortise) and mark its haunches/width and make those simple cuts:
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I then clean up the shoulders. With an incised line, this is not hard. Either saw close enough, or shave the extra waste until you see the top half of the line at the edge, your chisel then easily registers in the line and the thickness being shaved is easily sliced. [One note: don't use an overly wide chisel here as it will be much harder to push and control]
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I cut the miter with the same jig as shown above in the stile installment. In most cases you will now have to do some tweaking here and there. What is required varies and really just amounts to patiently figuring out were slight bits can be removed for a better fit. Be patient. Sometimes, the miter needs to be moved back very slightly (easy to shave with the jig); sometimes the tenon needs to be tweaked. One thing I use when tweaking the tenons is the old standby of marking the high spots:
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That's just pencil scribbled on a cheek offcut.
Here's where I end up:
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And the mates:
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Next time: THE FOURTH CORNER ISSUES!! Stay tuned.
Edited 12/18/2008 10:21 am ET by Samson
Samson ,
More great stuff , you are doing fine job and I know many of us appreciate your efforts .
Just out of curiosity could you estimate about how much time it takes you to make one door frame sans panel just the frame in the manner you are showing us ? I figure you spend much less time then when first learning , so now as experienced as you are how much time does it take ?
I am a machine sort of guy as you know , but always keep an open mind to other ways and since I only build to order and for my own it would be helpful to know what to expect . Who knows the power could go out .
regards and thanks again
dusty, who has made thousands of stile and rail doors ,with machines only
Thanks, Dusty.
As for the time, it's hard to say exactly, because as a hobbiest with all the other things that pull at my time, unbroken stretches in the shop are few. I might go in the shop one evening and mill everything, the next night I might only have 20 minutes, so I run grooves and beads, the next night, I have an hour, so I get 4 stiles ripped and two tenons made, etc. In the end, I'd guess I could make a completed frame like this from the milled stock in well under two hours assuming that I didn't have to do much fiddling to fix any mess ups with the tenon fitting.
Nothing wrong with machines. I do find the hand made beads and bevels do have a somewhat different look with their slight irregularities.
Do you mill your stock by hand tool also,or it it TS and thickness planer like me ?
d
I've done it strictly by hand on occassion (rip saws, shooting boards, winding sticks, the whole 9 yards), but more often follow the line of least resistance: hand planes to get one side flat, lunchbox to thickness, and table saw to width, followed by some cleanup with a smoother to remove blade marks.
Same with mortises, I like to use my pigstickers and used them all the time in the past, but when I broke down and got a benchtop mortiser, I really have to be in the mood to pound and pry ...
Sean,
Another excellent description of your process. I am fascinated with your description. You are causing me to try your approaches. In the past, I have added the beading. Also, I use draw bore pinned mortise and tenon, and have not worried about getting the fit "too" precise, even though it is pretty good. I doubt my M&T joints will ever come apart, and I am not sure I needed to use glue, but I did.A thought - I use a router plane to trim the tenon cheeks. It registers to the plane of the face of the rail. When I took Cosman's course a few weeks ago, I saw that he uses the router plane also. I use the big Stanley. He uses the small new LN. I asked why not the large one. He said "increased precision because the cut is closer to the supported base of the plane". In any case, I am really enjoying this thread. Good folks making good responses to you. This is what Knots should be all about. When I went from using dowels to DBP M&T on my panel doors, I thought I was making a big leap, but your writeups show me that I still have a ways to go. Mel
PS was not kidding about the dowel joints. My brother told me to get a Stanley doweling jig in 1968, and showed me how to use it. For decades, my doors had eight dowels each. Have never had a joint fail. But my great grandchildren may find that my dowel joints should have been carefully made M&Ts. I will leave instructions for them on how to repair a failed dowel joint. I hope they will have computers that read DVDs. :-)Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hey, Mel, thanks for the comments. Certainly a router plane would work great too. I decided showing two alternatives - shoulder and chisel - was enough to suggest that the options are many. I have also used my LN rabbet block quite successfully in this operation.
Edited 12/18/2008 12:44 pm ET by Samson
Sean,
Yours are infinitely better than mine, so I am not trying to show off. Here are a pair of photos of an "identical" pair of cabinets that I made using M&T joints and beading. They are identical only in that they are the identical design. One is milk-painted pine (my wife's request), and one is curly maple. As a result of this thread, my joints will be much better next time.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, please show off.
Your cabinets are excellent. I'd be proud to have them in my home or to say I'd built them. You are entirely too modest.
It's fun to share our processes -- air them out outside the privacy of the shop ... and see what aspects smell a bit - and then maybe bring to those bits some fresh thinking inspired by comrades here. I'm glad you shared. I hope others do too.
Samson , This is a great thread, thankyou.
Mel , those cabinets are very fine , thanks for sharing.
Tom.
Samson,
Another fascinating post. Despite the subject being familiar it's very educative to see another's process and methods.
You mention: "Various methods and angles of attack can be brought to bear for the intial thicknessing [of the tenon]"
Like you I try to get the initial saw cuts right next to the line on the waste side. If things go well the saw kerf striations are all that need to be removed with the shoulder plane to get a good fit. If not, I resort to the pencil - several lines across the tenon faces so you can see that they are planed away and planed away evenly. This is a bit like your later marking of high-spots (which I like to avoid if possible, as this seems to be the point where I begin to mess up with overcutting).
I wonder if you are a beveler of the shoulders? There was an article in FWW a while back about cutting slightly down, with the chisel, from the periphery of the shoulders towards the tenon "root", to ensure that the shoulders of a stile meet the faces of a rail with less chance of a gap atween the two, caused by shoulder-bump. I never liked the idea, having previously used machine-made M&Ts which fit like a chicken's top lip (very close all round)........?
****
Meanwhile your example has been inspirational. I've decided to follow it and document the making of a Gimson-like oak coffee table, inclusive of the hay raker stretcher and the decorative carving. This item will take me a while but since I got bored with oiling zillions of Adirondack chair parts, I've begun practicing a bit of motif-carving. I hope to start the thread-proper in a month or so, after another couple of pieces are made and I've practiced more carving (a first for me).
Lataxe, Samson-pupil.
Thanks, David. My middle name is David, by the way.
"This is a bit like your later marking of high-spots (which I like to avoid if possible, as this seems to be the point where I begin to mess up with overcutting)."
Just between you and me ;-), overcutting is no great horror. It's happened to me maybe once or twice (uh huh - once or twice) and I found it quite easy to remedy with a little glue and a thin offcut of a rip from a wide board - it gives you a whole nother chance! I know some say that this is not as strong, but I've also been told that long grain "joints" of this sort are stronger than the surrounding wood, so I'm not sure how it's much of a compromise in strength.
As for shoulders, yup, I'm a slight undercutter. Besides being a wimp, one reason I like to do it is that it facilitates slight compression of that critical edge when clamping - another dodge that will close up any tiny tiny gaps that may linger. What's your objection? Wetware seems to have an irrational anti-undercutting meme virus.
I'm thrilled you're preparing a step-by step process show!! Yours sounds infinitely more complex and highbrow. I await it with bated (or possibly baited) breath.
Sean David - pupil of all
Sean David,
"Thanks, David. My middle name is David, by the way."That was from your message to Lataxe.Well, and this is not a joke. My middle name is David.Ray Pine's first name is David.Best I can tell, all great woodworkers have David as one of their names.Melvin DavidMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I once worked in an office with 5 Davids in it. A bloke would put his head around the door and say, "David"? Five great ugly mushes would turn to stare at the puzzled enquirer.
Of course, "David" is Hebrew for "beloved". True of me and me mammy and perhaps even the ladywife cares for me now and then. But otherwise I seem to have been mis-named. :-)
****
Meanwhile I have begun to follow Samson-the-undercutter's example and made a post concerning my "primitive carving". Whilst I am here I will mention that I have rescued one or three over-planed tenons with a nice rectangle of veneer. One may find stuff going down to 0.4mm thick.
Lataxe Tenon-Thinner.
Soooooo..........that's my problem. No "David" in my name.....not anywhere....
Heck, I don't even have a 'David' in the family
Jeff David-less wood hack
PS This has been the most enjoyable and informative thread I've seen in Knotsville in quite some time.....perhaps ever. Samson has quite a knack for literary explanation, with great photos to boot. Heck....he even inspired Charlie to break out the camera. BTW, Charles is my middle name.
Edited 12/29/2008 11:26 pm ET by JeffHeath
Jeff David,
Can I call you "JD"?
Sean (Samson) originally posted photos and info about his project in the LONG THREAD. I praised it to the skies, and suggested that he keep posting on his project, because it really was inspirational. He started this thread and he broke the mold with a new standard for excellence.The technique he uses of good explanations along with good photos is one that Derek has been using for a while, BUT THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. Sean focussed on DOING WOODWORK, not on sharpening. I like the fact that Sean mentioned different tools that could do a task. Excellent. It shows the flexibility that comes with a good deal of experience which morphs into wisdom. TOPIC 2 -- You asked, "so what is next?"
Good question. In general one can best predict the future by looking at the past. The denizens of Knotsworld are VERY CONSERVATIVE with it comes to change. So I would predict "essentially NONE." The LONG THREAD is dead. That was fun, but it got a bit dull in trying to get it the last 300 (or so) posts. The only reason to do it was to have some fun. It did its thing. No need to do that again. Last year, I learned how to carve bowls with a chain saw, and got pretty good at it. Now that goes into the bag of tricks. This year, my plan is to focus on carving and more complex joinery. I am going to try to do a couple of Sean-esque threads in these areas. I am making a new year's resolution to shy away from those endless threads on expensive planes and on sharpening. I am sick of them. WITH ONE EXCEPTION. I think it is possible to write an article called "The world's final article on sharpening" which is different than the usual ones. In the usual ones, someone shows you how to sharpen a specific tool. Well, why not simply write down how you do that for any tool. "Teach a person to fish and you feed them for a lifetime." Let me know what you think about the Final Sharpening article. It would be a meta-article. The problems that most newbies have with sharpening is that they start putting metal to stone, and they contine without checking on progress. In a recent thread, someone ruined an iron for a small router plane. HOW COULD ANYONE TAKE OFF THAT MUCH METAL without checking on progress toward a goal? Two reasons, one they had no idea what it should look like when they are finished, and they had no idea on how to check on progress toward that end. Secondly, newbies don't have ideas on how to gain precision in moving toward the goal -- eg, you can increase precision by using a hollow grind which lets you register your bevel on two "lines", which decreases the rocking that can occur with a flat grind.Finally, if a person has a sharpening question, there are two things they should do before they write to Knots. One, check one of three books. Leonard Lee and Thomas Lie Nielsen have books on sharpening. Check one of them. They cover everything from plane blades to scissors. If you are sharpening carving tools, then look up Chris Pye's book on carving tools. If that doesn't answer your question, then go to Google, and do a search, and go to FWW website and do a search. Anyway, it has been a great year. Next year will be even better.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Yep,now that someone's admitted it,I've gotta 'fess up!.....not in mine either,spose that's why I have all this trouble. :-)
Robin
David Lataxe,
This is Melvin David. Glad to see you here in the thread with Sean David. David Ray Pine has been here too.David, this is a great thread. We should each start one of these a year, and pass on to others something we are working out for ourselves. This is what hobby-woodworking should be all about. Exchanging info for mutual benefit. How else can we outperform the professionals, who already know too much, and get paid for it. Actually, IMHO, this thread much better than articles in FWW. As I have often said (and been rebuked for), the best person to learn from is someone who has just learned it. Well, here we have someone, Sean, who is workingn it out and showing us the process as he works it out. That takes great courage. It is also easy for someone else, who is not well experienced in the area to relate to his thought processes and to the issues and questions he raises. The feedback from those with a lot of experience really enhances the process. Melvin DavidMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mogan David , AKA Mad Dog Mel ,
Don't forget about David Ring probably the most experienced box maker I know , not to mention one heck of a smart fellow and friend to all and willing to share .
I wholly ( is that a word ) agree with you about this thread of Samson's , the quality and content is second to none . I'm still positive FWW will catch his act and agree with the bulk of viewers opines and run him .
I guy called me today and asked me if I could make him a big box , I said you bet boxes are us , thought you'd get kick out of that Mel .
regards MD , AKA Mad Dog Mel
dusty
Dusty,
You crack me up. I sure wish I could have apprenticed to you, and learned how to make really good boxes. I hope you are right about FWW picking up on this thread. Mad Dog Mel (alias "Mogen David")Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
And All...
That's a good call,Mel. I agree all 'round with your sentiments and suggestion. Will follow suit eventually with my Grandfather clock.It won't be till sometime well into the new year,[as I think I've mentioned,the new shed in which the clock will be built,is itself about to be built!]
I reckon this is already a great thread.
Long may it weave.
Robin.
Let's finish up this frame, eh?
The fourth corner is a little less forgiving than the other corners because there is no redo on the shoulders and miters. If those aren't spot on the door won't be square. Fortunately, the bead makes getting things sized faily easy, just match stiles and rails like this and mark:
View Image
I'll use this installment to add a few more tips for tenon fitting. First, sometimes when tweaking the tenon it's hard to know which side to shave to keep things lined up. Just put the two parts together on a flat surface and you should be able to see better where shaving is required:
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Also, I used this fourth corner as an opportunity to try out the router plane again. It's actually great to use as it keeps you from accidently putting any slope on the cheek or other uneveness:
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However, the router can be hard to adjust to take really fine cross grain shavings, so final tweaking might still be better accomplished with a really sharp chisel paring with the grain.
And if you really screw up and overshoot, all is not lost by any means. Take a little more off and get the cheek flat, then glue on a square of an offcut like this:
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You then get a second chance. The reason to take a little more off before gluing on the new wood is so you have some meat to work with as opposed to getting right up to the glue line on the second attempt.
Of course the end result should be flat:
View Image
and square.
View Image
This weekend, we make a panel! Woo hooo!!
Sean,
Another fine episode.
Now, you suggest in respect of tenon-rescue: "The reason to take a little more off before gluing on the new wood is so you have some meat to work with as opposed to getting right up to the glue line on the second attempt". The picture shows a small plank you are going to glue on. :-)
Another approach, assuming the tenon has been made only very slightly too thin, is to stick on a patch of veneer, which as you know comes between 0.4 -0.6mm thick. (That's 16 - 24 thou inches in old-fashioned). Once the stuck on bit has dried, a second-cut (i.e. fairly fine) flat file can be used to take down the veneer patch to something even thinner, if desired. In most cases, a thin veneer seems to be just the right amount to put back, so no further work is necessary to size the tenon again.
I do wonder, though, if such a thin piece sandwiched between two glue faces will somehow weaken the joint. Of the few I've had to rescue in this way, none seem to be weaker - but then they haven't really been subject to huge amounts of stress. I wonder if others use this technique and find it OK (or problematic)?
One advantage with the veneer is that it is so thin it will conform to any slight bumps in the tenon face when glued in place, so seems very secure.
******
That glossy pic of the router plane is very naughty. I can feel a warmth beginning in the trouser pocket region! (Not that kind of warmth, it's just money trying to burn it's way out, no bag needed yet). I wonder what you're going to raise the panel with? This is an exciting thread!
Lataxe
Most excellent Samson!
And...I don't know how long it was before I looked for offsets between mortise and tenon by laying them on the bench top and trying to slide them together. But I suspect there was a lot of doors patched from tweaking before. I don't remember where I read to do it that way, but I had obviously overlooked it prior. Very good for putting that tip in this thread.
Well done on the entire thread. Great pictures, great text. Cannot wait for the panel.
Take care, Mike
Great lesson, and you broke it down into very understandable steps. This is the type of stuff I come here for. Thanks again.
One stupid question, how do you sharpen your beading blades? I've considered adding one of those tools, but am intimedated by the thought of having to sharpening the dang thing.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 12/20/2008 10:30 am by bones
I'd invite others to jump in on this, but my answer on 66 blade sharpening is this: They don't seem to need much sharpening as their cutting edge is a 90 degree angle. If I'm getting a lot of tearout, I have occasionally tried touching up the edge with a fine file and slipstones. My sense as these things need sharpening maybe about as often as saws or less - they are not like chisels or plane blades that need regular sharpening attention.
Beautiful Thank you .
d
Samson:
This thread represents the best that Knots has to offer - a fine how to at a high level and a forum for other woodworkers to question, critique, suggest, and learn. We need more of this. Perhaps when I have a month of Sundays...
I was about to add "...and perhaps when my skill level is higher" but it occurs to me now that this could be an excellent way for the less skilled (like myself) to get great input from the more highly honed.
Excellent effort setting the Knots bar higher.
Randall
I agree. This is an excellent, well conceived, written and illustrated thread.Joe
Samson, Let me just add my compliments on a fine bit of cyber-journalism. It has the flavor of those old FWW issues, and makes even a weary codger like me want to go cut some mortises by hand (I think I haven't cut a mortise and tenon by hand in 15 years). Well done.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Mr, Ring, David, Mike, Tom, Robin, Dusty, Derek, and all the rest of you, I thank you for all your kind words. As I keep saying, it's great for me too, not only for the tips and feedback received from others, but for the simple joy of successful sharing among friends.
Happy holidays!
Samson (Sean),
I gotta thank you for the great Christmas present. Can't remember a nicer one in a VERY LONG time.
Best Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Sean,
Are you sure the Incra square is square enough for this measurement?
:-)
Mel
PS another nice episode in the adventure. Now that I have both the new LN small router plane and the old Stanley router plane, I am anxious to test them side by side on adjusting tenons. I'll let you know what happens.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Let's make a panel. For this project I am not making any sort of particularly fancy panel. I wanted it raised and beveled, but without a rabbet at the field boundary. There are no doubt hundreds of ways to remove the wood to arrive at this. I'm going to use a router plane for the tongue work and various bench, and maybe a block, for most of the bevel work.
But before we get to that, I need to do some measuring and marking. As I promised at the start of this thread, I'm going to show details here that I suspect most of you will find obvious, but I'll include for the sake of completeness and in case someone has better ways to do these elementary things.
I first choose my board and get it to thickness. Here I try to get it the same thickness as my frame (roughly 3/4"). Panels are often figured woods, and tear out can rear it's head, which means you may end up compelled to stop short of perfect thickness to avoid risking tearout on the next strokes, or having to go past perfect thickness to remove tearout from the previous strokes. My point is that in marking, you cannot assume that if you mark tongues from both edges as though the peanl is precisely as thick as the frames, you will end up with good marks (e.g., if the board is too thin, the tongue would be too thin as well, and vice versa).
After you've got the peanl cleaned up thickness and surface-wise, you need to cut it to size. I like to take my measurements right from the completed frame using a scrap as a little story stick:
View Image
I cut only 1/16th less the marked height as the panel will not move in this dimension (the leeway is just to allow adjustments in other directions if required), and, here, roughly 3/16ths off the width as I'm building in winter, and this piece of cherry is about 9 1/2 inches wide. So now I have a raw panel:
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I need to figure out some details about the thickness and length of the tongue. So I first assess the depth. There are lots of ways to measure this. I favor my bras set up bar:
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If you don't have those, you might use a caliper
View Image
or a combination square
View Image
or 97 other things in your shop including that little story stick to gauge the depth of the groove. So with that information in mind, I set my wheel gauge:
View Image
and mark all four edges of the front and back faces. Next, I need to figure out how deep to go from both sides so as to arrive at tongue of the correct thickness and also flush with the front of the frame. So I begin by setting my gauge right from the front of the frame:
View Image
I mark this on the edges with the gauge registered on the front face of the panel. I then need to mark the othe side of the tongue. I use the 1/4" brass bar held to the line I just mark. I strike a small knife line that I then use to set my wheel gauge:
View Image
I also set the wheel gauge and mark the top of the bevels (boarders of the field) at this point too:
View Image
So now that the thing is marked, in tomorrow's installment, we'll remove some wood!
This keeps getting better all the time. Its the first thing I turn to when I boot up the computer. Thanks again.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Sean,
I never realized how popular a woodworking topic could be on Knots. I used to think that Knots was a place where you argued about sharpening and planes. I really like this new approach where the focus is on the process and the skills as well as the tools. Then there is the LONG THREAD. That one was inspired by the Seinfeld TV series, which Jerry says, was about nothing. The long thread is more than 5000 posts, mostly about nothing. I was beginning to think that "nothing" is important. :-)They say that the face of Helen of Troy was so beautiful that it launched a thousand ships. Well, I believe this thread will launch a thousand (well, maybe fifty six) hand made raised panel doors. That is no mean feat. You are really generating some enthusiasm. And you probably caused David (Lataxe) to start his similar thread about carving. You could be to woodworking what Barack Obama is to politics.Mel
PS whenever I am writing and I begin to hear music in my head, I know it is time to stop. Have fun.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Samson,
Not to get picky but did you mean a stopped bead on the stile?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Yes, Bob, I've corrected it. Thanks.
Here's my contribution - As part of an in-house 'training session/challenge' I four-squared stock, smoothed the workpieces, ripped and crossscut, laid out the joinery, ran the grooves, shaped the thumbnail with a C&W #12 (I think) hollow, mitered and coped the joint, chopped the mortise, and sawed out the tenon all in 22 minutes 18 seconds (not necessarily in this order). It's just Poplar and the workpieces are not perfect but the 'staff', as it were were, were suitably impressed and shocked that the old man could work up such a head of steam in between his ranting and raving, making lunch reservations, and the now practically infamous 'glass of wine or two' and not completely botch the whole operation.
Sorry for the photography, what you are seeing represents my maiden voyage with a digital camera and as art goes is a profound insult to the Mark Rothko hanging on the wall above where the photographs were taken in my home.
Edited 12/18/2008 10:02 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
That's amazingly fast, Charles! If pressed to work that fast I fear my door would have gaps you could push nickels through and would be wound a 1/4" out of flat between leaning mortises and cockeyed tenons. I'm not even going to imagine what the molding would look like. You had to cope yours, no?
I really appreciate you sharing this stuff. As I said a few times in this thread: my hope in posting these stuff was that it might entice a few old hands to share a thought or two about how they do it.
I'm honored and humbled, sir.
Sincerely.
I never stopped moving. It was coped with a Two Cherries in-cannel 1/2" gouge in two strokes. It's rough, and it shows. I'd never do that on a live project.
Edited 12/18/2008 10:02 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
That is really impressive through tenon work , I do like the cope myself as well , thanks for sharing .
If you take your time do the corners come out right ? Is that what happened there ? Maybe 4 strokes of the gouge ?
regards dusty
I couldn't get into the shop tonight to get my fourth corner pictures, but here is the progress so far with three done. I make my doors slightly oversized so they can be planed to fit after glue up/assembly, which meant here, I could friction fit the dry fit assembly into its carcase opening.
View Image
Thanks again for everyone's contributions to the thread. I'm learning a lot.
domo arigato
YOU are learning a lot? My dear man, you are the teacher here, and a good one indeed.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Sean
Your work gets more stunning with every presentation. I have read and reread it all. I am busy with two rooms of wall-to-wall cabinets. Many doors. This thread is inspirational.
Charles, welcome! I almost said "out of the closet", but should really say "out of the cabinet". Heh ..:) Nice pictures and thanks for sharing. Well worth the wait!
And Mel .. for you, my Hebrew name is David. Great cabinets, bye-the-bye!
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Again, I'm honored. You are an avid and highly skilled hand tool user. If you do any of these steps differently, I'd be glad to hear about it - or see it when you get to making those cabinets.
Mel/Cosman's suggestion about the router plane to size the tenons is a good one, for example. For tenons small enough to allow a large router plane to register on the rail or stile face, I agree whole heartedly with Mel that it is great to have the plane automatically jigging the paring of the tenon cheek perfectly parallel with the member face.
My pictures and descriptions are hardly as clean and well-thought through as your wonderful articles, but perhaps if I keep at it .... It's far more work than it seems when only reading. ;-)
I too am glad Charles found this subject worth participating in.
And again, thanks for your encouragement.
Sean
Mel/Cosman's suggestion about the router plane to size the tenons is a good one, for example. For tenons small enough to allow a large router plane to register on the rail or stile face, I agree whole heartedly with Mel that it is great to have the plane automatically jigging the paring of the tenon cheek perfectly parallel with the member face.
Hi Sean
Agree. Although this is a time-honoured method, I suspect that few use it, preferring instead to use a #140 (skew block plane) or a shoulder plane. I guess it comes down to how well you saw! :)
View Image
There is an interesting (parallel) thread on Wood Central on sawing tenons. Mike Wenzloff supplied an interesting link to a video of George Huron, in which he first split the waste away (rather than sawing it), and then used a router plane to tweek the faces.
I hope this post does not side track from this most excellent thread, but is treated as a hyperlink.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Just nibble away a bit at a time.
TTM,
And another complication with coping that corner is that the tenon must have offset shoulders.
Ray
I always have to stop and scratch my head for a second or two when marking out the long and short shoulder.
This is one of the best threads in ages on Knots and I appreciate it. I know that I needed a break from reviews of the latest offerings from Lee Valley and the boutique toolmakers (sorry guys) and the endless droning about how to smooth tropical species with $2,000 hand planes.
Edited 12/22/2008 9:05 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
Pappydoc,
I have done a precis of your last post to highlight the meaningful bit:
"This is one of the best threads in ages on Knots and I appreciate it".
There was some other bollox in your message but I believe you may have simply had a billious attack after your lunchtime spam sandwich and somehow it got into your post.
Lataxe, expunger of acidic upchuck. (Geddit - chuck = charlie. Oh never mind).
Pretty much. Yep.
Thank you, Charles. I'm glad the thread is working out. I very much appreciate all the participation. I'm going to have to try your coped version with the offset shoulders on the next project.
The thumbnail on my workpieces is weak and the groove was run at 3/16" It would be even worse with a quarter inch groove. Really need to use 7/8" stock. The stock in my photos was 3/4". I actually dropped one of those workpieces onto concrete and I was surprised the thumbnail didn't break off. It did dent pretty badly.
I think it's actually a little easier to shape the thumbnail with a simple block plane than with the hollow, although it takes a little longer than using a hollow.
Edited 12/21/2008 1:55 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
Alrighty then, time to bring this sucker in. I was about to remove some wood from the panel, having marked it out.
I start with the tongues. There are score of ways to make the rabbets necessary to form the tongues with TS, 'lectric router, new LV skew rabbets, etc., But I take the slow train and use a router plane. I don't own the new skew rabbets, and a 78 or a 10 are not exactly ideal for cross grain work.
I set the fence and go to workm starting with the cross grain sides on the back:
View Image
Every stoke and first and then every few, especially on the cross grain, I run my wheel gauge to act as a nicker:
View Image
This limits breakout. I work down to my gauged lines all around.
View Image
The router is nice because you can change the fence to either side to work with the grain on the long grain edges. I do the same on the front, but as I approach the gauge line, I frequently stop to test fit with an offcut (or with an actual frame member):
View Image
As I'm not doing more to the back, I clean it up woth a smooth one last time:
View Image
and then test fit the tongued panel in the frame:
View Image
You want a little gap to allow for expansion. If you didn't measure well, now is the time to adjust those rabbets (a 98 and 99 would be good for this). These here worked out.
So time to make some bevels. This part is more an art than a science, I think. Luckily, unlike a joint, they don't have to meet any tight tolerance, they just have to look attractive. So really it's just a metter of slicing and planing the wood on a line between the base of your tongues and the line you scribed before. I use whatever works and will change midstream if something is tearing out or otherwise not delivering. The stable includes most every edge in your shop from chisels and drawknives, to bench, block and shoulder planes. The BU jack and rabbet block come in handy on the cross grain parts:
View Image
Often I start the hoggin with a shave:
View Image
Large shoulder planes provide a lot of control, especially near the intersection between the base of the bevel and the togue:
View Image
Often, the bevel tops can get just slightly muddied by the end. Crisp them up by smoothing the field:
View Image
I put BLO on the panel both because I like to see the grain pop and to repel any stray glue from the tenons that might get into the groove during glue up. This beveled filed version of the panel is subtle. It provides facets for the light to hit, but isn't as obvious as when there is a rabbet at teh field border:
View Image
And there you have it. Ready for glue.
Thanks all. It's been a blast. I yield the soap box for the next woodworker here to take us through something he or she is doing.
Happy solstice!
Edited 12/21/2008 10:48 pm ET by Samson
Samson,
Apart from agreeing with everybody else,please accept a particularly Australian expression.............Bloody beautiful,mate !!
Seasons best to you and yours
Robin
Sean, that was magnificent. It will be a classic thread. Thank you. Hopefully we will see a bunch of F&P doors displayed here soon.
Now I shall print it all out and read it again.
My very best wishes for a happy Christmas and New Year.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Sean,
I'm not sure what else I could possibly add to the plaudits from your peers. Would have to say that was the Finest Woodworking session I have ever attended. Perhaps you might consider a future in How It Should be Taught.
I have taken the liberty to copy/paste all your posts into a Word document that I will gladly send to you if you like. Email me and I will respond with a copy of it.
Heh, heh, heh, I'm keeping the original for my collection as I'm sure it will be of very high value.
Best Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks, Bob (and everyone else), for your kind words. I'm very glad you find my madness ... er, uh, method ... useful to think about as you refine your own. It's been a lot of fun.
Sure, I'd love to have a Word version, as this thread will sink into obscurity as they all do, and I may need to remind myself at some point how I do it. ;-)
Thanks again!
Samson (Caint seem to get Sean to type out) :-),
this thread will sink into obscurity as they all do
Oh my friend, I seriously doubt that will happen and I'd betcha I aint the only one who borrowed it. I hear through the grapevine that our friend Lataxe is preparing a tome (sp?), perhaps on frou frou?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Shurely you mean a tomb for frou-frou - although it would better just to burn it all in my new stove, once it gets going. Mind, I quite liked that art nouveau thang Ray showed us a picture of. But once we get to "festooned & dripping" then my lip curls and I shuffle away from the ugly thang quick-like before a headache come on from looking at it all.
Any "I'm doing this" post from me will follow the Samson model, as it is clear, succinct and perfecty illustrated. My own style is more "drones on & on". :-)
This evening I have been sneezing and hacking but doing a few drawings, in between the subsequent nozzle-honks and moans of self-pity. The A&C books have been scoured for appropriate motifs . After Christmas I'll begin that thread with a post about the concept so you can all pick at the design elements; or even suggest better or refined versions. I believe you once proposed a collaborative event of this sort for a Knots thread......?
Lataxe, with another thank-you to Sean for this great example of a thread for us to follow.
Lataxe,
I believe you once proposed a collaborative event of this sort for a Knots thread......? This is true, but perhaps Woodwork might............... Yeah, let's not go there; this discussion is far too important.
Samson has done it. Bravo! There are certainly more to come from folks in here. I'm not sure if he realizes how much he has contributed to Knots. It's inspiration like this that is what's needed and I'm really excited about the possibilities he has uncovered.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/23/2008 5:31 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Mel, Morgan, Peter, David, and Chris,
I'm just back from a business trip to Cleveland, and have been without internet access for more than a day - the horror! It was wonderful to come back to your kind words.
I'm extremely gratified that some folks found my posts useful and enjoyable. If I come across something else in my puttering that would be good fodder for a similar thread, I'll be looking forward to trying again.
I'm especially excited that I may have encouraged others to show there stuff. I can't wait!
Thanks again, all.
Loved your thread Samson. I'm just getting into hand tools and your posts were very informative. Please consider doing more of these threads for other projects. Chris
Sean,
I never had an inkling as to how one would do a raised panel with hand tools as you did. That may be basic to some, but it was enlightening to me. I will give it a try.Also, the photo showed the light playing off of the subtle facets just as you said it wood, and the BLO really popped the grain nicely. A lot of us agree that this thread has upped the ante in Knots. Lataxe and I are going to do a couple of these next year. You are the one who broke the ground. Congratulations. Happy Holidays.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Frankly I am speechless.
By far the best presentation I have read or watched. Your language and speech makes it look so simple and straightforward. I could be watching you go for a walk in the park. Those of us apprentices out here need to see a master at work. Practice, and then some more....
Thank you for making the time to do this.
Morgan
Cheeky perhaps, but what is next? and when??? <!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Mr Samson,
Taunton publications would be remiss in their duties if they did not offer you a contract to highlight your skills both in the actual woodworking and, more importantly for a publication, your skill of communication.
Cheers,
Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Samson:
Thanks so much. May be basic; but I learn something everytime one of you pros show your work and/or methods, especially when done by hand. Thanks and please keep up the good work.
Jump,
I'm glad it was useful. But I gotta tell you, I'm no pro. I'm just a longtime hobbiest who has tried to figure things out as best he can from reading and making lots of mistakes.
Happy New Year!
Beautiful door. I had a question about the raised panel. I am building some large cabinet doors and drawers out of walnut. They will all have frame and raised panel fronts. All my walnut is 4 qtr stock and if I used a piece for the panel, it would protude beyond the frame. (The frame would have a 1/4" groove spaced 1/4" away from the back of the rails and stiles.) If I need to keep the panel even with the frame, I would have to reduce the thinkness of the panel to around 1/2". Planing or resawing a 4 qtr piece down to 1/2" seems like a waste of walnut. Is there any chance I could get by with a protruding panel or would that be a design disaster?
jrogerh,
I'm not sure I understand your question. You have 4 quarter stock. Finished 4/4 ends up near 3/4". I take it this will be the approximate thickness of your rails and stiles. As long as your panel is made from the same stock, you should be able to make it line up with the rails and stiles, just as I did above, by cutting a tongue. There is no rule that says a panel cannot be proud (or shy) the plane established by the frame - whatever works with the given project. I'm guessing that proud might look strange in some settings, but I chafe at "nevers" in woodworking.
Sorry if I missed the point. If you can straighten me out, I'll be glad to try again.
Happy New Year.
Samson
Truly outstanding, my man. You have set the bar high, and, I am certain, have inspired many to rise to it with future threads that will attempt to reach the clarity that you so easily displayed. Great thread, and great job.
Happy New Year,
Jeff
Hi Puckster,
Now if some of this really Fine Woodstuff were to raise the bar for the mag......................
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
"Now if some of this really Fine Woodstuff were to raise the bar for the mag......................"There is an old saying among sailors, "Don't complain about the wind. Trim your sails." Instead of complaining, why not do what Sean did, and provide an alternative. This year, start a thread on an area of your competence, or an area in which you are gaining competence and want to share it with others. David (Lataxe) said he is going to do one of these, and I said I would do one also. Let's each do one!Just think. Instead of the usual drivel about expensive tools, we could focus on actually doing fine woodworking -- we could share real knowledge on "how to". Let's make 2009 a great year, BY making Knots better than FWW!!!
What do you think? Do you want to be a part of a revolution, which focuses on fine woodworking rather than on drivel? Happy New Year (almost).
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I took a stab at it in the BORK Riving Knife discussion.
As to the Revolution thang whattaya think about the Woodworking Life blog?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
The Woodworking Life Blog is very nice. It has some very good writeups in it. For its first year, it has a surprising number of posts. I can't tell how much it is read. It is kind of hidden away. It doesn't seem to be very interactive, as Knots is. I was blown over by the entire thread for Sean's thread on building a raised panel door with hand tools, not only because of Sean's writeups, but because of the interaction and feedback. I wonder how the readership of Sean's thread compares with the articles in Woodworking Life. One of the problems of getting the Organization to buy into a revolution is that they then are in charge of it. I tend to get a feeling as I read through the list of articles in the Archive of the WLBlog, that it is a "FWW thing". I was thinking more of trying to get a lot of folks on Knots to do it on knots, as Sean did. It would be interesting to see Knots focus more on woodworking and less on trivia. Chances of that happening are one in a gazillion. But then again, who would have thought two years ago, that we could get a thread to more than 5000 posts.You did a good thing by getting the Blog going.
Have a great 2009.
Stay warm.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Bob
I'll be looking forward to see what David, David, David,......and oh, yes, David put forth along the lines of this thread.
If I could think of something that everyone would want to see, I might even dabble a little myself. Perhaps one of the David's should start another thread of ideas for the next informa-thread, and then we'll know what folks would like to see.
Jeff
PS I leafed through the most recent FWW last night at the bookstore over a cup of coffee. It didn't take to long. These threads are much more interesting to me.
Jeff,
I upped and started "A Barnsley Table" thread, which is not really going yet as it's just got a post or two about the design-drivers. In time it'll also cover the joinery, the proportions and also the necessary carving (a new direction for me).
Next stage is timber selection, which requires a sunny day so I can drag all me oak out of the woodstore and lay it about the driveway to make pickins from.
I need to figger out how Sean and others manage to get the pics to show directly in the thread, atween the text, rather than as separate attachments needing their own window or tab. I suspect I'll have to figger out Picassa or somesuch service. (Sigh).
Lataxe
David,
If the pictures are posted on a website, you can copy the picture by merely right clicking and choosing "copy." You then simply paste the picture into the draft of your post.
The only hard part can be finding a website to host the original picture. There are many photo hosting sites available, but many prohibit direct linking like this. Most braodband account providers give you space on their servers for a personal web page (along with e-mail accounts etc.). This can be a good alternative too.
I have to go find your table thread now.
Happy New Year,
Sean David
Hi David
As Sean noted, the images must be copied (the actual image and not the address of the image) from a website and pasted into the post here.
You could open a free account on Photobucket (http://www.photobucket.com) for this purpose. Once you've done that and uploaded a few images, I'll happily walk you through the process.
Perhaps this will be another furniture building article for my website?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Here is a photobucket test.
View Image
Mel thinks on sharpening.
View Image
Lataxe (in shed-guarding garb).
Mel thinks on sharpening.
David, I laughed so that I chocked on my breakfast weeties! Very insightful!
Mel has become more than a little twisted in his reasoning lately. Poor guy should visit a Jungian rather than seek insight from Pavlov's dog.
To others - Jeff and Robin, both of whom expressed a desire to learn how to include pictures in posts ...
Step 1: upload a picture to (say) Photobucket. I aim to upload pictures of about 70-80 Kb in size. I resize them first with JPEG Resampler, which is free - just Google for it. I have had good results wiuth Photobucket. They are free (I now have a paid account there, but do have a lot of images!) and reliable.
Step 2: In Photobucket, once #1 is done, expand the thumbnail image to full size. Right click (if using Windows) and Copy the image. (You can do the same for any image on any website as well).
Step 3: Back at Knots, now Paste this into your post. This will transfer the image.
Step 4: If needed, you can resize the image in your post. Left click on it and you will see the outline
View Image
You can drag the corners to the size you want ..
View Image
Just watch that you do so evenly, or else Mel's thinking becomes even more narrowed. :)
View Image
I do not know of any other way to resize accurately other than by eye. Using the ctrl or shift buttons do not seem to make any difference.
I agree, nonetheless, that it is more enjoyable being able to read without having to also download pictures to "see" the point being made.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Thanks for the operating instructions! Have sneaked a look and registered with Photobucket during a quiet moment at work,but will have to wait till I can get back to my own computer and photo library to play further.
Your expertise ranges much wider than your medical and woodworking benches!
New Year greetings from a finally green Bowral
Robin
Hi Robin
It was a pleasure.
And my best New Year greetings to you and your family.
Regards from Perth
Derek
'morning Derek, I'll be watching as well.Got to go now,but will be back to it after work.
A very happy New Year to all of you,
Robin
Lataxe ole' chap
I'll be looking for your thread shortly, and hope to participate in the viewing process. I too am at arms over the picture issue. Samsons thread was so easy to follow because I didn't have to click on picture tabs to see what he was doing. Having the photos embedded in the text is definately the way to go. Let me know when you figure out how to do this. I just may decide to come up with a thread of my own, simply to experience the process, and hopefully to learn a thing or two along the way.
Jeffrey Charles the computer-challenged one
Jeff me man,
There is a way to do it in Knotsyland but it is a bit clumsy. You basically have to switch back and forth from Preview (to display the pic) and Revise, but it aint all that bad.
Take a look at the BORK discussion. I had to attach the photos but you can also get them into the text portion.
Here's how:
Post your text as you normally would. Then use the Attach Files to attach them to your post. After attaching them, click on Preview at the bottom of your post.
You will then see your text and small icons that represent the pics at the bottom of the preview screen.
Click on one of them and it will display in new window on your screen. Wilst it is displayed then right click on it and a Drop Down menu will appear and you then left click on Copy. Then click on Back in your browser and you will return to your message.
Move your cursor in your text with your mouse to where you want the pic to appear, then on your keyboard hold down on the Ctrl key and hit the V key. It will paste your pic into your text fer ya.
Now, weren't that slickern a slapshot!?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
OK, everybody. What's next?? This was great.
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