My normal inclination is to look at the label on darned near anything I buy. I like to see “Made in USA” on it; I even prefer to see those words.
Every so often, on one forum or another — usually on “The Wreck”, there comes a thread in which folks just seem to get off by trash-talking Asian-made “stuff”.
Whenever I see those posts I always think of that Buck Bros. Jack Plane with the big proud “Made in the U.S.A.” cast into the sole plate that I bought a few years ago and I cringe. (That plane wasn’t expensive by any means — but it wasn’t Harbor Freight priced, either.) My experience with that sorry excuse of a “Made in USA” tool is enough to make me want to look for “Taiwan” or even “China” before I shell out my meagar supply of dollars for tools.
It’s kind of sad to have these mixed feelings 🙁
Replies
I wouldn't worry too much about it. Remember when made in Japan meant cheap stuff. It's a global economy now. Made in America means made by immigrants any way. The only real original Americans are the Indians anyway and look how they got treated. People still say what about the jobs? That's part of a much bigger picture anyway. Manufacturing always shifts to cheaper areas of production. Have you called for tech help about a cell phone lately and talked to someone from India?
People still say what about the jobs?
I dunno; every time I stop by Grizzly, or even Harbor Freight, it sure looks like there are an awful of Americans working there, at jobs that wouldn't exist were it not for importing.
I think alot of this "buy American" stuff is propaganda from inefficient corporations that can't compete on the world stage, and unions looking to justify prices for labor that are way out of line with its value in the global economy. So instead of fixing themselves and improving productivity, they blame their problems in those "darn fureigners". For instance, I was in Europe a couple of months ago. The German automakers' union was outraged at Dailmer-Chrysler because they were considering closing some German plants, in lieu of places like Poland. Let's see, they've demanded, and gotten, 30-hr. work weeks and 6 weeks vacation, what did they think was going to happen? No matter what the mystique of the "German-made car" may be, such as circumstance is not sustainable.
Edited 12/27/2004 9:15 pm ET by BarryO
I was in one of them so called junk china foundry/mills in 2003. Those folks work their butts off. Yes you can get junk from china but also from Japan and the USA. I try to buy USA but I have limited funds. I just ordered a 18" Ricon bandsaw. I wonder where it came from? Almost ordered a Laguna but the guy was a snob when talking to them so they lost the sale. I looked at a delta (made in China?) and was not impressed. Just me...
Edited 12/27/2004 8:04 am ET by Will George
I live in Canada and find it odd that Americans are so protective of their own products when they export so much of their own to virtually every country in the world. As one on the outside looking this thread seems to bear a higher level of hypocrisy than I would be comfortable with. Having said that, I own primarily American made tools. General is a Canadian company that makes one of the finest tablesaws available
doug
Hard to know where to start on this topic because there is so much to say...
Things have changed, a lot. It is hard to find somebody willing to stand in one place and assemble widgets all day long. I have freinds in the "industry" and they are constantly "beating the bushes" looking for somebody willing to earn good wages (and benefits) for relatively easy jobs. Most Americans have better educations then past generations and are attracted to high-tech jobs and more enjoyable work (like outdoor jobs).
There is also an economy of oppurtunity. Our Grandparents could afford to spend all year working in, say, a cotton mill just to bring in enough to pay a mortgage, buy a car, send a boy to school and put something in the collection plate. But now days if you take that route you miss out on greater economical oppurtunities that will allow more free time and greater finacial security. The big Railroads are hiring to the tune of $70,000 trainman jobs but can't find enough applicants to keep pace with retirees. Why work in a factory when that is an option? Why assemble widgets when you can be an inhalation therapist or an RN. You can sell cars, make good money and see more sunshine then GrandPa ever did in the cotton mill.
So don't feel too bad about your tools from China. Those poor foreign factory workers are doing jobs that free up Americans so they can make a greater contribution to our society. And the foreigners make money so we can sell them our high quality, high-tech goods like; Ford Explorers, John Deere combines, Harley-Davidsons, computers, CAT Dozers, Boeing airplanes...you get the picture.
el papa:
That's quite a rosy picture you paint there, but I think the real economic picture here in the U.S. is a bit less cheery.
First, I don't know what "industry" your friends are working in, but I have a hard time believing that there is a surplus of relatively easy jobs out there with good wages and benefits. Employment figures indicate just the opposite. The type of factory assembly jobs you describe, which have been the backbone of the U.S. economy, are the very ones we are losing to foreign workers. Also, most employers are cutting benefits, especially health insurance. How many factory jobs available in the U.S. do you think still include a pension?
It's true that the workforce is better educated today, but with the cost of college rising much faster than wages, this won't continue forever. Even a college education doesn't guarantee a job these days, and I'm sure there are plenty of grads who would be willing to take on a good paying factory job, if they were as widely available as you claim.
Are the $70,000 trainman jobs you mention available to people off the street, or is this a position obtained after several years of training and experience? I work as a systems engineer in an automotive assembly plant, and it's going to be a long time before I see that kind of income. It's hard to believe that anyone, anywhere, is going to step into a job with that level of pay without very specialized training or experience.
Your assumption that factory workers in foreign countries are going to provide a market for the expensive goods produced here in America is also puzzling. How can these workers afford these products when they make only enough for their own subsistence? As an example, an assembly worker in one of Volkswagen's Mexican assembly plants makes about $2.00 an hour. Assuming a 40 hour work week, and 50 work weeks in a year, it would take one of these workers 5 years to make $20,000, which is about what a VW Beetle sells for. This assumes that the worker puts every cent aside and spends nothing on food, housing, or clothing. Explain how these workers are going to afford to buy our goods when they can't even afford to buy what they are building themselves.
In your part of the world things might be tough but around here we have an employment rate of less then 1.5 per cent. Help wanted signs are everywhere, service at restaurants and Home Depot, Lowes is terrible because they can't afford to fire the loosers. If you gather all your information from TV and newspaper reports you might think that the sky is falling but if you are a part of this economy you quickly realize that things are popping like mad. If you need a job just ask and I will send you a copy of our classified section.
Employees are cutting benefits because health care costs are rising so fast. They used to say 40% of a new American car's cost was employee medical costs alone, the cost has risen even more and if you want to subsidize a bunch of union employee's medical bills fine, but leave me out of it. Union employees make between $22 and $27 an hour these days I think they can afford to pay some of their own health care costs. Benefits are just that you know, benefits. They were originally intended to reward longevity and loyalty, not a right of employment. One of our local companies (ALCOA Aluminum) has been crippled by having to pay benefits to people who retired 20+ years ago. They have down-sized and lost considerable market share just to afford the benefits of these (deserving) people. US Steel has had the same problem.
The trainman jobs are right there on the internet if you want to find them. You need to be able to read, write, pass a drug test, pass a background check and meet numerous health requirements. They like to hire farmers and former military people. A freind of mine got a $20,000 signing bonus just for starting with the Canadian Pacific. Look for UP, BNSF, NS and CSX as well.
Have you ever been to Mexico? Spend some time out in the country side and you will see how a low-waged factory job can change the life of a Mexican. They may not buy a John Deere combine but they will eat after they are employeed (there is no welfare in Mexico) and therfore a farmer somewhere will buy that machine. Harley-Davidson is the number 1 selling motorcycle in Japan now, hard to imagine. I see long trains of JD tractors and combines all headed to Norfolk where they are put on ships to be shipped overseas. CAT has ahuge market that includes Europe and South America. Mexico also buys more American cars then they used to.
The world has changed a lot in the past 10-12 years, the old economy is gone and will likely never return. I would rather my children teach school, be a doctor, fly airplanes or program computers then work in a widget factory for 20 years or more(sorry).
Certainly, there are regional differences in the employment situation, and it sounds like we indeed live in different areas of the country. I just wanted to make a point that the good paying factory jobs are leaving this country in large numbers. It sounds like a good number of the jobs available in your area are service and retail jobs, which simply don't offer the wages and benefits that traditional factory jobs did. I doubt that many families with children could be supported by one parent working these types of jobs. I also realize that there are very few working families left with only one wage earner.
Although I was in a union for one of my summer jobs, and my wife had to join a union for her job with the State, I am not necessarily a strong supporter of unions. I see first hand how unions have priced themselves out of the U.S. labor market. I work in a location where union janitors make over $100,000 with overtime and drive Corvettes and Hummers while I make do with my Cavalier, even though I have a couple of degrees and am responsible for production-critical computer systems at several automotive assembly plants across North America and will soon add a plant in China to that list.
It's been several years since I've been to Mexico, but I did see plenty examples of poverty, especially on the outskirts of Mexico City. I realize that a $2.00 an hour job is a real blessing for these people, but I still don't expect them to be buying Harleys anytime soon.
You're right that the world has changed, and if I had any children, I would insist that they get an education. My parents did, and I feel very fortunate for that.
We are almost buried in low quality Chinese crap here. It is very difficult to buy clothing that isnt made there.
I avoid anything made in China if I have a choice. If it cost more then fine. I would rather pay for quality in an instant and have the item for a long time.
When the Chinese are torturing children in Tibet there is now way I am going to support it by giving them my money. Funny how the world can ignore such monstrosity when there is a profit to be made.
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
I am a union carpenter/millwright. About this time last year, I was trying to go to graduate school for psychology. Carpenter/millwright work is not steady all year around. So I was looking to get a better education and a better more steady job.
I went to the college's library and looked up what the professors were making in the psychology department. All are required to have PhD's. Only 4 were making more than the $40,000's per year.
That is really sad to have spent 8 or more years in school and to only make $40,000. So I dropped out and I'm back doing the carpenter/millwright thing. Well, trying to anyway as I am "between jobs" again.
And for all the folks that complain about union wages and benefits, I can only say this about the construction trades, it is only temporary work. The average union carpenter in the St. Louis area only works 1,300 hours per year. So it helps that the pay per hour is high 'cause you never know when the next job is coming. Also, every time you step on to a construction site you are risking your life. I think the pay should be commensurate with the risk. I've been 8 stories up with just my hand strength, lanyard and harness, and sure footedness to keep me from falling.
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack this post and go off on a tangent, but I do make an extra effort to buy American made products.
The best thing you can do, in my humble opinion, is to go to work for yourself. It isn't easy and it isn't always fun but you do get to control your own destiny. Making the most money isn't always the most important thing, having a quality life can make a lot of differnce. All of my freinds are self-employeed, we are the pulse and life blood of our local economy. Our phones ring off the hook with customers begging for our services. We set the terms and objectives of our own lives and our families are the better for it. We aren't rich but we certainly are free and happy.
My Father was a commercial electrician with the IBEW so I know what I am talking about. He was the happiest and had the most freedom in his career when he retired his card and struck out on his own. Besides, the IBEW managed to squander the pension he had paid into all those many years.
Temporary? I hear you, he spent many Christmases in New York City hanging Christmas lights while we waited at home for him many miles away.
AJ,
Next time you buy a 'quality' Makita or Hitachi tool, check the label. Much of it is made in China now. Same goes for De Walt, Delta et al. Where is a tool "made", anyway? Is it the factory that assembles it, or where the majority of the parts are made, or where the original design, engineering and development was done? Oftentimes, the answer is different for each question. Just like any other country, China can manufacture crap or can turn out top quality.
You can apply political dogma to this argument if you want, but I doubt that the tools will care. Maybe stop buying German tools because they executed Jews. And didn't America drop nuclear bombs on Japan in the relatively recent past? I don't mean to trivialise brutal behaviour, but you can apply this so-called logic all day and still not make a valid connection.
WallyLignum est bonum.
When I buy tools I look for the 'made in' stamp. With hand tools I buy old where possible as they seem for the large part to be better made anyhow.
Makita for example are made in Mexico, Japan, China to name 3. If made in China, I put it down. I do agree that parts could be made anywhere. One can but try.
You are of course correct about the misery inflicted by many countries on others. One could go back in history using that logic and buy nothing from anybody.
My 'problem' with Chinese goods is that they have been torturing and killing in Tibet since the 50's with no indication of stopping. Germany to use your example no longer has a policy of genocide.
The Tibetans it seems are paying the price for living in a country with no valuable resources and for being invaded by a country most others want to deal with.
The western world is in a mad scramble to get China to manufacture for them in order to make a larger profit. Just cos I live in the West doesnt mean MY dollars are going to support it if I can possibly help it.
I didnt/dont want to make this political. I do believe however that if enough people voice their conscience via their wallet then such monstrosity could be ended.
The sad thing is, Iraqis needed to be freed from a cruel and brutal dictator at colossal expense in money and lives. Tibet gets nothing but is equally in need.
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
My wife is Chinese, and was raised in Malaysia. I'm a Vermonter, born and raised. We make a stong effort to buy products produced in USA. We do that for 2 reasons. Reason #1 is that we feel we live here and need to support our economy. Remember that the tax $$ raised here pay for our schools ect. Reason #2 comes from my wife. Because she was born and raised in Asia, she has some opinions about the workmanship, and material quality of products made in Asia. She feels that most products are of such poor quality that they are not worth the money. My wife says that most Asians who can afford quality products do their best to by products made in the USA. The USA made products are thought to be better engineered, made with high quality raw materials, have quality workmanship, and USA based companies stand behind their products better than Asian companies.
Just an observation:
Some of the USA based furniture companies are leaving my area. More and more inexpensive Asian made furniture is available in it's place.
I have a small shop I operate on a part time basis. No marketing, no signs, just word of mouth. I'm getting more calls to build pieces from people who are very dissapointed with the quality of the workmanship and materials of peices sold in these new furniture shops.
I'm not trying to say you can't get quality products (tools, furniture, ect) from Asia. It is my opinion that it's getting harder to find.
I do not like the realities of China either but if you look at how far China has come and how far our relationship with China has evolved you have to realize that trade has much to do with it. After a short period of trade look for much they have moved towards our position. We now see millionaires in China, many Chinese citizens travel and live abroad, freedoms unheard of 20 years ago.
Our hopes are that they will eventually move even closer to our position and not develop into another cold war. We also hope that the torture, mass executions and dissedent round-ups will stop but for now they have at least slowed. And if this can be accomplished through trade rather then war...let's roll!
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