Anybody else catch this today?
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=61974&cat=51&ap=1
For $69Cdn! Even in this economy it’s affordable!
I’m really interested in how it cuts. I’ve got some LN saws that I just love… I’ve also got a Pax saw that I could throw into the river…
Both cost more than this guy.
Replies
Buster,
If you have a dovetail saw that works well for you, why are you interested in others. Just ride the wave, now that you have caught one.
I believe that far too much is made of dovetail saws. Frid used his home made bowsaw. Ray Pine uses an old gent's saw. I use the LN and the Woodcraft Dozuki. People use band saws, table saws, etc to make them. Anything will work, including a hack sawa and some cheap chisels, if one has the skill to use them.
IMHO, SKILL is far more important than tools. My definition of a good woodworker is one who can go into any other woodworker's shop and make a masterpiece. If you have to use your own tools, you are at best, mediocre.
Have you ever watched new and experienced players shoot pool. The new player is perplexed by the shot he is trying to take. The experienced player is thinking about how this shot will affect his next shot and so on. To me, the same is true in woodwork. Newbies worry about cutting this particular tail right now. While cutting a tail or a pin, an experienced guy is thinking about how the entire piece is coming together. Psychologists call this "Chunking". As one progresses in skills, one can integrate skills into larger skill sets. Pretty soon, making a Chippendale Highboy is not daunting. ((OK, I overstated the case))
To me, the best way to improve in woodworking, is not to focus too much on tools, but to increase the size of the chunks of your skills, so that you aren't thinking about the darn dovetail saw anymore, and you are thinking about the larger issues. I realize I am out of step with most of the Knots world.
I hope you don't take this wrong. Just putting my two cents in there. You'll probably get lots of answers to the question you asked.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
This is a false choice, Mel. Another saw and success with an existing saw are not mutually exclusive. I have plenty of planes, but lust to have many more, just to play with them, try them, appreciate them. Trying out (or horrors: collecting) a variety of fine tools is fun.
Sean
"This is a false choice, Mel. Another saw and success with an existing saw are not mutually exclusive. I have plenty of planes, but lust to have many more, just to play with them, try them, appreciate them. Trying out (or horrors: collecting) a variety of fine tools is fun. "We are not on the same page. I am talking about woodworking. You are talking about tool collecting. They are not mutually exclusive, but IMHO, getting wrapped up in tools gets in the way of woodworking. I don't believe it is a false choice. We are talking about two paths. I think of the path you describe as that of "the gentleman woodworker", or as my wife derisively puts it, "The Yuppie Woodworker", with a lot of excess money.The path that I have chosen, has best described by Ray Pine. He don't collect no stinkin' tools that he don' need. He builds great furniture. To me, this is the essence of purity and simplicity in woodworking. The focus is on attaining the knowledge and skills, and the tools needed to do the job. The reason that I wrote to Buster was to see if we could turn this into at least a 300 post thread. If people answered his post as he asked it, we couldn't run this thread up past 50. NOW we have the makings of a real discussion about the basis of the issue he brought up. What better a way to truly understand an issue than to go back to first principles. I am sure that Lataxe will say, "Mel, there you go again, wading in hero worship. This time it is Ray. Last time it was Savage." My response to Lataxe's unsaid statement would be: "Not quite. I had adopted Ray's approach in 1968, and I only met him online a few years ago. It is possible that he copied my approach, or that we arrived at a similar approach independently. While neither of us is a tool collector, the tools that we have are quite different. Even more different is our ability to use them. At the present rate, I will catch up to Ray in 3065, if I live that long.Have fun. I sure hope you come back with a good flame, so we can get this thread up on steroids.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"We are not on the same page. I am talking about woodworking. You are talking about tool collecting. They are not mutually exclusive, but IMHO, getting wrapped up in tools gets in the way of woodworking."
Yes, but like chisels, it's important that a dovetail saw feel good to the user. I've 6 or 7 back saws, mostly antiques and a couple of L-Ns, and there is one that is by far and away my favorite. It fits my hand like a glove, the tpi count is just right for the kind of work I do, and my performance in cutting dovetails is noticeably superior with this saw than the other ones I own. By performance, I mean how accurately I can split the knife line, saw square to the face of the board, and not have to pare the result to get them to fit. That's no big deal if I'm doing a box with 20 or so tails/pins, but it matters a lot when I'm doing a case of drawers with 300 of them.
As Adam points out, you can saw dovetails with a hacksaw, but that would be a pretty poor and inefficient choice if you're going incorporate hand-sawn dovetails into your work on a repeated basis.
D,
You have to forgive me. I had two extra cups of coffee. Couldn't stop typing. I have seen folks get carried away looking for the "Best Bandsaw", the Best set of chisels, the Best shoulder plane, etc. If one looks at woodworking as a way of passing time, then this search can be very productive -- you can spend a lot of time looking at more and more tools and reading more and more tool reviews. I suppose one could take "searching for the best tool" a bit further. I have read that, for example, not all of the LN chisels are created equal. Some fold over under heavy use, and others stand up very well. I guess the process of hardening the steel has some variability. SO WHAT I MUST DO is to head up to Maine for a few days, and ask Thomas if I can have access to a few dozen sets of LN bench chisels, and then select a set that holds up well. That might be fun, but the chisels would end up costing a few thousand dollars, and I could have used the time to do actual woodwork.To each his own. When I studied Artificial Intelligence, I learned the term "satisfice". Sometimes, instead of looking for the BEST value for a particular parameter in a given circumstance, you can often come up with one that takes care of business, without being provably 'best'. I believe same is true for tools.BUT I FULLY REALIZE that my way of thinking, though valid, is not popular here in Knotsville. I will never be elected mayor of Knotsville until I start spouting the value of tools in improving quality of life. (and even then, I don't have much of a chance.)Thanks for the conversation. It is fun. I am taking a break from rejuvinating an old marble top walnut Victorian chest that has seen better days. It is for my daughter's new house. Can you believe: in these times, she and my son in law sold one house and bought another. That took about two weeks. Have fun.
MelMelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"I have seen folks get carried away looking for the "Best Bandsaw", the Best set of chisels, the Best shoulder plane, etc. If one looks at woodworking as a way of passing time, then this search can be very productive -- you can spend a lot of time looking at more and more tools and reading more and more tool reviews."
This is actually, in my opinion, a bit different than advising that someone stick with the dovetail saw that they have becase they have one, and one doesn't need more than one. I personally believe that there is no such thing as a "Best" tool, though one individual can, of course, have a favorite that works much better than the others they've tried (which is the case for the dovetail saw I mentioned). This is why tool reviews are not acceptable content at the frequency with which they show up in magazines. They serve a purpose, I think, to let a reader see what's out there, but that's about it.
And your thought about Lie-Nielsens dovetails with this thought nicely - this is why I tossed the FWW with the front-cover chisel review article into the "read sometime in the next few years" pile in disgust. It is not possible for Chris Gochnur, skilled though he may be, or anyone else to pick a "best value" or "best overall" chisel. To do so accurately would require many samples of each tool, and even then ignores the ergonomic aspect of it, which will be different for every user. In my opinion, selecting and presenting to the readership a "best value" or "best overall" from such a test is little more than a lie - and a real whopper at that with a not-so-nice hidden motive of selling magazines.
OK, that was my soapbox for the day. ;-)
d,
"OK, that was my soapbox for the day. ;-)"I enjoyed that thoroughly. Gotta agree with you too. Nice Post.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
I understand that you enjoy trolling for discussion by baiting the hook with controversial statements. However I am really not sure whether you truly believe that the woodworking world is divided into two halves, those that are Collectors and those that have Skill.
Do you suppose it is possible to have both? Hey .... a little bit of grey!! :)
Anyway, not to worry ... the truth is that I do not have many tools and not even anything that is collectable, It is really all done with Photoshop. I just cut-and-paste the pics of those fine tools onto my workshop cabinet shelves. ... mmmm ... more truths .. the cabinets in my workshop are also courtesy of Photoshop. I got the images from Lataxe. :)
Incidentally, the "Best Bandsaw" thread was not about buying the BEST bandsaw, but about someone looking to get the best tool that they could afford. Anyway, that is as I understood it (and I did contribute to the thread). I do, however, think I understand what you are wanting to say. And this is that some "woodworkers" are more consumed with buying tools than in using tools. Or that they invest their confidence in the quality of the tool rather than in their own skills. That may be so. Still, what that person needs is time. Time to develop skills. Some thrive on a challenge and some need encouragement. You know that.
This Veritas dovetail saw will be a great entry tool for some, and as much as others will pay for a competent backsaw. I have not (yet) used this final version. I did provide feedback to Lee Valley on an earlier version, and I can say that if was bloody uncomfortable to hold (the tote needed work) but it cut superbly. Just superbly.
I have a couple of dovetail saws. I am planning on a few more. I have a LN and an IT (sharpened by Mike Wenzloff, so I think of it as a Wenzloff instead). I consider myself a competent dovetailer. I could, to use your criterion, cut them with someone else's saw. Nevertheless, one size does not fit all. I want a high-toothed one (say about 20 ppi) for thin boards (I often cut dovetails in 1/4" thick hardwood). A 15 ppi is not really suitable (as I have found), and I would rather use a Western saw than the dozuki I am forced to turn to.
Since I enjoy building my own tools (I get as much enjoyment from building furniture with my own tools as in the pleasure of the final product), I plan to build one based on the Grammercy, just because the tote interests me, and I will not be in a position to fully appreciate the hang, etc until I have used one. (thought to self ... will Mel consider building tools in the same category as building furniture. Can we consider restoring furniture to be truly woodworking?) .. . just being provocative back :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek, you really ought to read the top few posts in Chris' blog:
http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/
Also, I've made a Gramercy kit:
View Image
I recommend it highly. One thing though, if I were to do it again, I might be tempted to use the pdf of the new Kenyon Chris includes as an attachment to one of the blog posts as the pattern for the handle. I agree with Chris that the Gramercy handle is a tad narrow for my medium/large (glove size) hands. FWIW
Hi Samson
Thanks for the link. I found it fascinating .. About a month ago I came across this saw (or one very like it) on eBay. I was so tempted to bid but passed the auction on to Joel instead since I believed that it was more relevant to him bearing in mind the similarity to his Grammercy. I did recognise the era of the saw. He said he wanted to bid on it. Obviosly not enough!
The version I plan to make will be based on this saw, but scaled to fit my (average-sized) hand. I prefer something a little meaty. I plan to make it 20 ppi. There is a good Crown 8" gent saw on a shelf that, I believe, should make a decent foundation for a complete re-build.
Regards from Perth
Derek
THe Gramercy saw is based on a dovetail saw in the Duncan Phyfe toolbox. It's not an exact copy, but the thinness of the handle is (I think it's by Kenyon also but I am not positive). It's intentional because it moves control of the saw from the palm where there is less agility to the thumb and forefinger where you have lots of control. For people used to fatter designs there is a getting used to curve but in general once you stop trying to hold the saw by the middle - there is a big payoff in speed,accuracy and consistency. (it's in the instructions on sawing which come with the saw or you can download it for the net. The carcase saws have thicker handles because putting power in the palm on this saw is very important.
Phyfe also had a smaller dovetail like saw in his toolbox for I presume smaller dovetails. this one is for standard sized stuff but can be used for smaller stuff. JoelPS - we have had people with tiny hands and huge hands say the handle is just right, too big, or too small when first encountered. IT has much less to do with hand size than how you are used to holding a saw - and this saw is different than any other DT on the market.
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
Edited 11/23/2008 10:37 am ET by joelm
Joel, I really appreciate all that interesting detail. I no doubt am used to fatter handles, and perhaps not for the better. Mind you, mine is the kit, so I may have messed up my handle all on my own - your production saws may be just right (I've never held one). My saw cuts beautifully. I have no complaints at all. In face, it's my go to dovetail!
Did you see the Kenyon Mike wants to reproduce at Brea? How did you think it compared to yours?
"Did you see the Kenyon Mike wants to reproduce at Brea? How did you think it compared to yours?" Really similar - we wanted to make a 18th century DT saw after all and that is what this is too. The two saws are pretty close - and there is enough slop, and mods to the handle so we don't actually know what this saw looked like new. My guess is it looked even closer to our saw but that's a guess.Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
The only modification to the handle is the hang hole.
The rest is shaped as per the keyhole and table saw examples I have had in here. The sash saw is of the same general styling, but being a closed handle has obvious differences.
The WIA Kenyon, other than the cheek treatment and the slightly fatter lower section of the hand hold is a near match to the Seaton chest saw. Goes for hang as well. The WIA Kenyon is a little less than 1.5 degrees higher.
Take care, Mike
Derek,
I never meant to imply that the woodworking world is divided into two nonoverlapping groups, the skill-ers and the tool-ers. It is a matter of degree. However, I notice that while some of the older woodworkers are "way over" on the tool side, it is the younger woodworkers who tend to be way over on the tool side. In talking to them at Woodcraft, I find that they have almost no confidence in themselves in selecting tools, so they rely on the words and ratings of others. That is why I am so wary of tool reviews. When I converse with professional woodworkers (those who make a living at it), "tools" almost never comes up. They seem to have gone beyond that. I believe the reason is that they haven't got time for trivia, and have learned to focus on what allows them to make a living. Take the people here on Knots who are professional woodworkers and read their messages. They rarely bring up tool issues, but on occasion, they answer another message about tools. Now look at the messages by younger or newer woodworkers. Take Wanda for example. Have you ever seen a message from her that wasn't about a tool?I believe that there is a MOVEMENT in the Fine Woodworking world. It is one I am not happy with. It is the movement of professional woodworkers away from producing furniture, and towards "teaching" short courses, opening schools, and writing for the mags. They come across as "The Wizend Ones" -- "The Ones Who Know". Lataxe often speaks of hero-worship. WHen they teach and write, they tend to indicate that their way is THE WAY TO BE FOLLOWED. Read the mags. Watch the DVDs. It is almost like they are HIGH PRIESTS who are creating their own churches. Some develop cult followings. The result of the HIGH PRIESTS preaching as if theirs is the one true religion, is that the younger woodworkers beging to believe that there is only one way of doing anything -- whereas in woodworking, as you know, there is nothing that can or should be done in only one way.Our younger, newer members are not gaining what they need most -- the building of confidence that "I can figure it out". To me, the most important characteristic that a woodworker must develop is self confidence. What is killing this development of self confidence is the raft of "tool reviews", that the newbies have become hooked on, and the hero worship of the Big Names in Woodworking who are selling DVDs and selling themselves in the Mags as the fonts of True Knowledge.Let's help the newbies develop self confidence, not by focussing on tools, but by teaching them how to do their own tool review, and to make their own decisions, instead of learning to depend on others. Let's focus on teaching them skills. Let's talk to them about their furniture rather than their shoulder planes.Remember that great quote: "Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and feed him for a lifetime." So my recommendation to you, Derek, is to stop doing tool reviews,and instead, take the high road. Teach others how to do their own tool reviews, and how to become independent in choosing tools. Teach them what the important parameters are in selecting tools, and let them do the thinking. Don't do it for them. Spoon feeding develops dependence. We want the oppositeTo inspire the next generation of self reliant woodworkers, we need to foster their belief in themselves and their own SKILLS. They are the masters of their tools, and not the slaves of their tools. In the future, when you read my messages, see if you can tell that I am NOT trying to cause controversy, but rather to cause people to think. TO PRACTICE DIVERGENT THINKING before coming to conclusions. I am trying to get woodworkers to open their minds to other possibilities. I suppose someone who wasn't looking closely could misinterpret this to be "causing controversy", but a person who was looking deeply would see that I am trying to get folks to see more possibilities. "Which tool" is a topic for growing weak minds. "How to choose tools", and "How to use tools" are topics which grow strong minds. Lets grow strong woodworking minds.Don't you agree?
MelHave fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I never meant to imply that the woodworking world is divided into two nonoverlapping groups, the skill-ers and the tool-ers. It is a matter of degree....
Mel, you do come on strong all the time. I am still not sure if you are having us on, trying to drum up arguments .. Surely no one is that black and white.
When I converse with professional woodworkers (those who make a living at it), "tools" almost never comes up.
Of course not. Unless a tool produces money, that is, pays for itself, then it is superfluous. In my private practice I do not surround myself with unnecessary tools (e.g. all the neuropsychological tests that are published) either. I have just those that I need for my work. The basic tools and my skills are all that I require. Only newbies buy them up.
You are behaving one-eyed, as if only the world of the professional woodworker is the one true world. You forget that the greater majority here on this forum are hobbiests. We do it for pleasure, not for profit.
I tell you what. Let's take this to an extreme. What about making your own tools rather than using your up-market LN ones (which you justify is OK because you get them half-price - others cannot do so and must forgo this luxury). I build a lot of my stuff with tools I have made. In fact I prefer this and will do so every time I can. Make your own saws, your own planes, your own chisels. I have. Use them. I do.
What is killing this development of self confidence is the raft of "tool reviews", that the newbies have become hooked on, and the hero worship of the Big Names in Woodworking who are selling DVDs and selling themselves in the Mags as the fonts of True Knowledge.
It is not tool reviews that is encouraging lectures and DVDs and hero worship. You are being one-eyed again. It is simply the fact that woodworking is a big hobby industry. I am not sure what you are up in arms about? The fact that there are more manufactures of handtools now to cater to this increasing populous, or that there are more teachers offering advice and selling knowledge to them - is it that you believe that people should acquire this knowledge by some other method?
So my recommendation to you, Derek, is to stop doing tool reviews,and instead, take the high road. Teach others how to do their own tool reviews, and how to become independent in choosing tools.
Mel, this is where I again wonder if you are pulling my chain? Or perhaps you have not read the reviews I write as I intended them to be read? Very few of my articles discuss just the tool in question. Almost all include a great deal of information on how to use the tools, plus examples of what I hope others recognise as creative use of the tool. I'd like to believe that this information has encouraged others to use the tools and develop their skills in handwork.
I consider that most woodworkers who use handtools are already on a path of discovery. There are many machines these days that allow a woodworker to build things with simple joinery. Handtools instead encourage the use of traditional joinery. So those that enter this world are already seeking enlightenment. You do not have to convince them of that. Why should you care that some choose to buy every handtool that is manufactured? Especially if this gives them pleasure. When you wrote of the "High Priests", "When they teach and write, they tend to indicate that their way is THE WAY TO BE FOLLOWED", you are in fact describing your own exhortations here!
I do still think that you are just hamming this up. :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 11/22/2008 10:37 am ET by derekcohen
Derek,
I'm not entering into this latest fray, but am making a comment about those woodworkers who seemingly spend more time making DVDs, writing magazine articles and teaching classes instead of producting masterpieces. We may wish to consider that the wages left after supporting the overhead of a workshop are not really that great, and therefore may not produce income acceptable for the level of work put into commercial pieces.
I would suggest that many of the guys/gals doing DVDs and teaching classes do so to earn extra income over and above that gained from their shops. You're spot on that most of us here are hobbyists, and I would speculate that most of the guys Mel sees at Woodcraft are also hobbyists.
As far as the Derek/Mel discussions, keep it up as a good natured discussion such as this is entertaining. Should you guys have the discussion deteriorate to viscious attacks and such on each other, then I suppose we'll have to put Lataxe and perhaps Charles on duty to settle you two down!.
T.Z.
I'm still awaiting a guru to show me how to cut the left side of a dovetail. When I crap one up it's always that side.
Rob Cosman, are you listening? Please, sir, a 90 minute DVD on left side cuts only.
I don't need a left or right to crap one up! I can go through 3 or 4 that come out very acceptable and then I get the bad one. Is it my saw, my stance, or just not holding my tonque right?
The fact is, no amount of reading, listening to a teacher or watching DVDs will replace hands-on experience and lots of it. I also feel we hobbyists have a tendency to get caught up into always "needing" the latest, greatest gadget.
T.Z.
Yep, I cut the itty-bitty ones with a Pax gent's saw and the bigger ones with a Crown closed handle saw. When I cut a gappy one, and I most certainly do from time to time, I've got a kitchen match box about half full of little wedges of several different species ready to put the whole thing right.If I futz one up I just slow down and concentrate on the rest. No need to quit for the day, pop popcorn, and fire up the DVD player.
Derek,You have a great attitude towards the world. You fully understand that I am not trying to give you grief. I am merely stating my ideas on some aspects of woodworking. I also make perfectly clear that I do not believe my ideas would ever attain much acceptance on Knots. I do not fit the mold (if one exists). My beliefs are closer to what professional woodworkers work, than to the hobbyist. You see things as leaning far more toward the hobbyist with a lot of disposable income. Your view is quite valid. You are much more in tune with the soul of Knots than I am. But I believe that my philosophy of woodworking, which places a higher value on Skills than on Tools, and which focusses on helping the new woodworker become self reliant as soon as possible, is a useful and viable one, and one which is used by most professionals. My way of thinking is neither better nor worse than yours -- just different. I hope you don't think that my views are revolutionary, because I didn't develop any of them. I just picked up the pieces from others, as I grew into it. I do not push others to join my wagon train. I don't have a wagon train. I am only one unknown, unsung woodworking hobbyist who also thinks about why I do woodworking. I got a Minor in Philosophy when getting my BA in Mathematics.Your influence on others is immense. Mine is minimal to non-existent. Once in a while someone will say to me "Mel, you know, I feel the same way about that." That doesn't mean I influenced them. It just means that they too are out of step with the vast Knots majority.I do run across a lot of woodworkers who don't have a lot of disposable income. I want them to know that they can do WONDERFUL WORK by getting tools that are used, and by getting adequate tools instead of gold plated tools, and that they should focus on increasing their skill set. For a few decades, I mostly worked on a porch, with a handmade bench and a circular saw, a jig saw, a router,some handtools and some C clamps. I made very nice furniture. I used the dowel joints that my brother taught me, and I didn't know much about M&T or dovetails. I bought my new tools at Sears. AND LIFE WAS GOOD.And life still is good, now that I rely on M&T and dovetails, and that I am getting more and more into hand tools, and am trying to make better furniture. I do have more tools than before, and I have some better tools than before. The "better" comes in terms of functionality, and not in terms of "boutique tools". I believe that in buying a new tool or developing a new skill, it is best to think about it first. In thinking about it, start with a search of the web and the library. Then ask some friends. See what is on Knots. THEN QUESTION WHAT I HAVE LEARNED. That is, use divergent thinking -- consider other possibilities for a while. Then when I feel comfortable, narrow the field down, using my criteria on my parameters. So when others ask a question about which tool should I buy, here on Knots, I often turn the question around, and essentially present the asker with the opportunity to do some divergent thinking. I am positive that lots of folks will answer the question directly. I think it is best for people to think for themselves, and I try to foster it.By the way, that is the way I brought up my three kids. They are now from their late twenties to early thirtys. One Ph.D. in Robotics. One Master of Engineering in Civil Eng. Master of Science in Business with a specialty in computers. All three are happy (I think). All three are nice folks. All three are married to the first person they married. All are self confident. I tried to foster their self confidence.My approach in woodworking is the same.My ideas are different. Have you ever heard anyone else define a good woodworker the way I do. ( A good woodworker is one who can make good furniture in someone else's shop.) Hope this makes clear that I am not "pulling chains". I merely think for myself. I really enjoy a good discussion with others which is intellectually honest and has some depth. Some people get scared of such stuff. It causes them to rethink their core values. I hold you in high esteem. You are what I like to see in a woodworker:
- you strive to make very good pieces.
- you have supreme self confidence (you know you can solve problems).
- you are filled with enthusiasm about what you do.
- you are a true gentleman. You live in polite society. You don't ever insult others. Although you do criticize ideas and approaches, it is never personal. Indeed you try to make people feel good.
- you are inventive. you are a tinkerer. you try to see how things can be done better.
- you like to help others by passing to them what you have learned, and you are unsurpassed in your ability to write clearly about that.
- you never bully anyone.You are a fine woodworker and a fine person. Congratulations. If I wanted to help others become like you (my kids, for example), I would use the approaches and beliefs that I described above. (which I did.) I would focus on teaching them to think for themselves, to be good people, to help others and to stay excited about what they do.While you and I have some different approaches to woodworking, I do not think we are on opposite poles. The main difference is that I believe in getting other people to help themselves, you believe in helping them by giving them the answers that you have come to. Back to "Give a person a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."Another difference is that you are more comfortable with the richer hobbyists who enjoy the more expensive tools. I am more comfortable with the approach the professionals tend to use. There is overlap between the philosophies. The difference is a matter of degree. The fact we are different in many respects is a good thing. Tony Z is a tool collector as well as a woodworker. That is not my way, but I like and admire Tony, just as I like and admire you. Differences are good. The differences between you and I are not to be feared, but to be applauded. It is what makes the world go round. Of course, your approach is much better for those who manufacture expensive tools.Hope you enjoyed this. I don't believe I can take it much farther. That is as deep as I go. I enjoyed it. You make it fun.
Thank you.
Mel
PS Do I ever "ham it up"? As a person of Italian descent, I really do not understand the question. It is possible that what you call "hamming it up" is the way I live. No-one has ever mistaken me for a Scandinavian.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel
A few comments in response ..
I hope you don't think that my views are revolutionary, because I didn't develop any of them. I just picked up the pieces from others, as I grew into it.
'Mel, I don't have a problem at all with your opinion that skills are more important than tools. I am all for it as well. Beautifully crafted tools are as much an art form to me as many other forms of art. Plane makers like Philip, Conrad, and others who you very likely have not experienced, such as Peter McBride and Brian Buckner amongst others, and of course sawmakers like Mike Wenzloff... the list could go on and on ... all artists.. Wait until Lee Valley releases the new planes on the 24th. This is the design work of Steve Jones (hey, with a little help from me!!). There is no other word to describe these than "stunning".
But they are also just tools. To be used as tools. Some remain in awe of the tools, believing that the tools are art or religeous artifacts and not tools, and they then are placed reverantly on a shelf. I would never dream of doing that. All tools get treated alike in my workshop. Some are just more desirable to use.
The thing is that a beautiful tool is not a barrier to the development of skills - fear is.
I do not push others to join my wagon train. I don't have a wagon train.
Mel, you do and you have.
It is not the fact that you have a position that can get irritating - it is that, of late, you have been pushing it insensitively and constantly. You were so much more tolerant of individual differences even a few months ago.
I believe that in buying a new tool or developing a new skill, it is best to think about it first. In thinking about it, start with a search of the web and the library.
That is my way as well.
Some, however, are too impatient and either want to be given all the answers, or use the answers of others. I have patients like that. They do not want psychoanalysis. They want a pill. But there are others who will listen to advice, then evaluate it carefully, and derive a plan for themselves.
My ideas are different. Have you ever heard anyone else define a good woodworker the way I do. ( A good woodworker is one who can make good furniture in someone else's shop.)
Why must this be The Goal? I don't see it as important. In fact I am concerned that setting it up as an ideal is likely to cause many to become irrationally fearful of failing. We all want to be a better woodworker, perhaps even a good woodworker. But most importantly I believe that we want to be a Happy Woodworker. Pleasure is not contingent upon extreme success. I like doing good work, but perfect work is unlikely to be in my future.
Another difference is that you are more comfortable with the richer hobbyists who enjoy the more expensive tools.
Mel, you say this like a broken record. I enjoy nice tools, but many of the nice tools I use I have made for myself or restored from near-scrap. Nice tools do not necessary cost anything other than time and some skill (but probably just patience). Many might mistake you (with your LN tools) as a "rich hobbiest", y'know. As I said earlier, nice tools do not stop me using them like any other tool. Tools are just tools. You seem more preoccupied with their value than I.
While you and I have some different approaches to woodworking, I do not think we are on opposite poles.
We are closer than you could imagine my friend.
As far as the Derek/Mel discussions, keep it up as a good natured discussion such as this is entertaining. Should you guys have the discussion deteriorate to viscious attacks and such on each other, then I suppose we'll have to put Lataxe and perhaps Charles on duty to settle you two down!.
Hi Tony
No fear of discussion deteriorating. Firstly I am quite fond of Mel. He is a good bloke. Could do with a drink with a good shrink, but otherwise a good bloke. Secondly, the thought of being taken to task by Lataxe ... well, enough said!
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
For a long time you told me I was too nice. Lataxe told me I was too nice. Heck, I am only trying to please you guys. I have worked out a lot in my mind since you have been "psychowoodworking" me. I see now that what I thought was due to blue collar traditions, is really the same thing as the "professional woodworker" approach. You also helped me see more clearly the focus of the woodworking manufacturers on the hobbyists. This is where the money is going to be made. That's great. We all need to make a living. Pandering is the biggest and oldest industry in the world. ((OK so I overstated the case again, for the sake of drama. Just kidding. Sorta. :-) )) I see this every time I step into Woodcraft. They couldn't stay alive without it. So I am very glad it exists. You mentioned my statement that I get the LNs cheaply. Yup. A big reason is that I think more woodworkers would get a kick out of working for 11 hours a week at such a place. The pay is insignificant, and the discount barely makes up for it. But the opportunity to meet and interact with a wide variety of woodworkers is invaluable. I recommend LN tools for folks who dont get the discount. The reason to me is obvious. While most don't sell their tools, isn't it comforting to know that you can try out the skew block plane for a year and if you don't like it, you can get almost all of your money back? Liquidity is a good parameter for an investment, and in a significant way, tools are investments. So much for this discussion. I have enjoyed it thoroughly. I can't put anything over on you. You see right through me. Because of that, you are the most formidable person on Knots to have a discussion with. Also you don't offend or take offense when none was intended. I gotta get back over to the Long Thread, and see if we can get it to 5000 so we can let it go. I realize that is an insignificant goal, but what the hay? It has been fun. There was one point that maybe you and I can talk about some time in the future. It came up in this thread, and I wish you had commented on it. I referred to a Knots-person, all of whose messages are requests for advice on which tool to buy. I really would like to find ways to help such folks learn the attitude of self reliance. I know that you can tell that I strongly believe that the REAL purpose of a teacher should be to free the student from the need for a teacher. (idea from Ivan Illitch). I really do believe that too many of the "woodworking teachers" who focus on the hobbyists, instill the need to go back to a teacher for more learning. One school here in the US gives you a certificate, suitable for framing, for every ten courses you take from them. To me, the very idea of this is deplorable. (BUT lets leave this for another time). This has been a very useful and fun chat, because we did get down to first principles on important topics. I am the better for it. Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Don't worry too much Mel. There are tons of woodworkers out there with a little bit of dirt under their fingernails, guys that can get it done with a basic kit of tools, guys who are about as likely to log on to the internet and 'talk' about shopping for new tools as they are likely to spend a weekend watching chick flicks on Lifetime. You usually won't find these guys haunting a Woodcraft store weekend after weekend or pestering Rob Lee on some woodworking board about release dates for his latest destined-to-never-be-used tool offering.These guys understand that a hobbyist's time is strictly limited and aren't about to waste it with a polishing cloth in one hand, a glizted-up tool catalog and well-worn Visa in the other.
Edited 11/24/2008 11:02 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
Hi Derek,
Just in case you're feeling discouraged, please keep the reviews coming! I absolutely love them! And that's from someone who's only followed your lead twice (router plane & jointer).Anyway, regarding the tool under discussion (saw). Am I the only one who thinks this is the fugliest saw ever made? Seriously, do canadians feel that ugliness is a reliable indicator of utility? That block plane looks like a supository, and the saw looks like it was designed by that guy in the Graduate:
Mr. McGuire: I want to say one word to you. Just one word.
Benjamin: Yes, sir.
Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?
Benjamin: Yes, I am.
Mr. McGuire: Plastics. A tool should work as well as it looks, and vice versa. Come on now. I'd rather buy and fettle an old Stanley or Disston.
---Pedro
"That block plane looks like a supository,"That's a coffee-spewer....
And the price??? You'd think they's aime to be in LN's neighborhood. I can't imagine a block plane that works better than my LN Rabbet block. And it's roughly half the price of the LV Deluxe. What's up with that?
Really? I didn't know there was such a price difference. Interesting.
Compare the deluxe at $280 US:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?p=61963&c=2
with the (I think much prettier) LN at $165 US:
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1216
and the even more versatile LN Rabbet Block at $165 as well:
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=60_5R
I guess the more homely version of the LV is a mere $180 ....
$280 huh, for a block plane? Okee, dokee.
$280 huh, for a block plane? Okee, dokee.
Veritas really has lost some "street cred" with me...
The question keeps nagging at me: Why bother?
This really returns to the beginning of the thread. A $69 dovetail saw got this response from some people. But I get that, it's half the price of competing saws. If your in the market for one it's a great deal. This... unless you're in the market to spend double what they already sell... I just don't get it.
Maybe the $300 is aimed at the collector, with the lower end version (with it's much lower price) at the user.
"The question keeps nagging at me: Why bother?"
Because there's a very large market for high-end, pretty planes, and Rob Lee knows it. There's good reason to go after this market. The fact that Mike Wenzloff has stopped taking orders until the new year because he can't keep up with the demand for $175 saws should tell you something.
Besides, to my knowledge this is the first modern production of a Norris adjuster by a large company. I've little doubt that feature, as well as the nickel alloy of the more expensive plane, resulted in the ca. $300 price tag.
Because there's a very large market for high-end, pretty planes, and Rob Lee knows it.
Yeah, I know... It's just a radical departure from the Lee Valley Tools that I visited on Saturday. It's a sellout of the common woodworker! (I'm being overly dramatic here!)
Veritas was, up until this morning, the brand you could go to that was 'less expensive than LN, but just as good'. It was the brand that last week, we described as ugly... but very functional. Now they're the ones with the 'pretty planes'.
Derek, don't take me too seriously. Maybe I'll warm to this plane when I see it in the store. I had the pleasure of seeing Sauer and Steiner planes last year, and every time I saw them I was tempted to buy one... This is purely just an emotional reaction to the apparent change in direction of Veritas. :)
Besides, to my knowledge this is the first modern production of a Norris adjuster by a large company.
Maybe I'm confused with what a Norris adjuster is... but isn't the Norris adjuster used on all their planes?
In the end I'm sure that the manufacturing and design costs merit a $300 price. I truly hope that these planes are a success, and Veritas will continue to put out their more useful planes.
Buster, I've more or less exhausted my knowledge of who currently carries what and at what price. I have three L-N planes, a skew block, a scrubber, and a No. 66 beader. Everything else is old Record and Stanley.I have what I need. I doubt I'll need a $300 block plane, well, ever. I won't want one in the future, either. If I had $300 bucks burning a hole in my pocket I'd be ringing up my lumber guys checking to see if they had any specials or an unusual find. I'm trying to beef up my inventory of wood, not shiny new planes.I'm sure Rob Lee knows his market. It ain't me.
Edited 11/24/2008 5:01 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
If you don't want to buy the $300 block plane then you may be interested in the $600 block plane from Bridge City. Should make you twice as good a woodworker.
http://www.bridgecitytools.com/Categories/Woodworking+Tools/Planes/Block+Planes/#ret&pg=1&srt=price&dir=desc&perpage=8&viewtype=Products&tracking%5Bcid%5D=204
I'm sure it would Ben.
>I'm sure Rob Lee knows his market. It ain't me.<Nor me. But if Rob Lee ever made me an "uhhh-fficial product design consultant/ reviewer guy" like old Derek, I'd say make a block plane in the exact size, shape and curvature as Jennifer Anniston's left breast. It would be a work of art. "Twist the nipple to the left for a finer cut, twist,..." well you get the idea. Who cares if it was useful for,...for,....what was that thing? What's that thing we talk about sometimes?,....oh,...yeah,...Woodworking,... that thing I read about while sitting in my new addy-rowndack cheers that I planed smooth with me $6000 worth of smooth planes.
Rainy day here without much work. Can you tell?"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Now, now Ed,You must not be allowing that bitter and twist in your tiny soul to drip out into the electronic aether, otherwise the witches will notice and come to take you away to their stewpot cage. They like the flavour of such as thee, lad. "Yum yum - poison dwarf"!Perhaps you and Charlie can form a mutual admiration klub, where you may sit back in those chairs Charles is always claiming to make (the invisible ones) and sneer at this, that and also the other (especially The Other, which excites your bitter-gland excessivly)? You will be as happy as two scorpions under a rock. :-)Lataxe, where it is sunny as usual.
Everybody's working something out on these types of forums, Lataxe. With me its pretty easy to figure,...boredom,...maybe a dollop of a healthy distrust of Brits. You, on the other hand, well you've posted quite a lot of blather in the comparatively short while that you've been here. It's quite funny to see you using words like "admiration klub." Charlie and I were here when giants and philosphers roamed these forums. You, a realative newcomer, who needs to constantly remind people that he has a lot of expensive tools.I guess you're working something out,.... I can't fault you too much - I have the some of the same propensities toward guitars - I just sold one for over $4K - I bought it in San Diego for $900 in 1993. 1957 Fender Vintage Reissue stratocaster - 'twas made the first year that VRs were made. Nothing but a chunk of wood with wires and crude electronics attached, really, but people seem to want them.But paying that much for a smooth plane is just fricken' silly. Have a good day, night, whatever.By the way, Lataxe, if you ever need a plumb bob, Bridge City sells one for $150. Best made. Don't frame a shed without one.
"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
I'm bored also and your description of the new plane is causing me to shut this damned computer off and go grab Momma!
Back in three minutes or so!
T.Z.
"Back in three minutes or so!"Funny.
Hi Ed,
Charlie and I were here when giants and philosphers roamed these forums.
OK, where are these folks today?
Are they lurking in here and we don't know them or are they gone forever. I'd like to rub elbows with 'em sometime. Get their take on what's to do with woodworking.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,You have failed to translate Ed's euphemism so I will supply the service. For: "giants and philosophers" read: "intolerant blokes who nevertheless think just like me and are Right".Lataxe, a pygmy.
Lataxe,
Oh,so they're Gawds gift to wood eh? Must put their trousers on backwards and strut their stuff!?
I have a friend of mine who raises peacocks, mebbe I can get them together.............. Meaning the peacocks, not my friend.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
>Gawds gift to wood<Now that right there would be pretty funny if you were accusing me of that. I know some professional woodworkers who have seen my work who would get a pretty good laugh out of that. No, I just like to throw in an alternate point of view to the tool worship, sometimes. I am very interested in working with hand tools, but I honestly think I have made every mistake that you could possibly make in the course of learning the basic techniques. One of my friends who used to be a professional woodworker has a table that I made a few years ago with hand tools when I was first getting going with them - she likes it because she says it looks "rustic." She has it sitting in her atrium with potted plants on it. I recently told her that, "You know if you put some epoxy in the cracks on the ends, repaint the top, then never, ever tell people that I made that, I should be clear of that one."Posters I used to enjoy on knots in earlier days included Jon Arno and Lee Grindinger. Jon's passed on and Lee's not making furniture anymore and not posting.Here's a couple photos of a tool cabinet that I made in Montana while recovering from double hernia surgery. The challenge was to make a tool cabinet big enough to hold the tools required to make itself, but small enough to actually be portable. I did it with hand tools only, including ripping the planks and all of that. Someone had to help me lift things during the first couple weeks of recovering from surgery, which really kind of puts the kibbosh on that. I haven't fitted the tools in, yet, but close examination would probably allay any fears that I was "Gawd's gift to cellulose." <G>
Take care, Ed"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
hi ed,
couldn't care less about the thread topic... your pine cabinet, however.
is that made from home depot pine? looks like it. one of my favorite woods to work with. cheap. flat.
whenever i make something from this stuff, the results are very good. i guess the fear of screwing up some expensive material is greatly reduced and therefore my relaxed confidence can come out to play. anyway, i really like your tool cabinet. your handwork is good.
eef
Thank you.No it's made from lie-around-under-the-carport-for-years-and-miraculously-escape-being-burned-in-the-stove Montana pine. It was gray and warped when I started. I glued the jointed panels with some kind of dark glue which I would have liked to have revisited, but c'est la vie. It's going to be my "travelling tool cabinet. Will post pics when the tools are fitted. As Eddie "I'm trade! I'm trade!" Australia would recommend, the main bench plane in there will be a No. 6.
Take care, Ed
"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
So, do you take any special precautions when using handtools on pine? Do you have to clean the saws and plane blades to avoid getting them gummed up with sap? Or do you just work away the same as with any hardwood?Thanks!
---Pedro
pedro,
i did not mean to give the impression that i only work with hand tools. i rip and crosscut using machines. tenons on the t-saw.
been cutting dovetails by hand and motises also. those times when ive used hand tools on home depot pine, ive had no trouble with clogging or pitch. not so with power tools. there is significant pitch left on these.
eef
Pedro,
"Do you have to clean the saws and plane blades to avoid getting them gummed up with sap?"When carving, I usually coat the gouges with pine tar. It really keeps the gouges from slipping when you are sweating all over them. Pine tar has other advantages. Carvers always have trouble keeping their gouges where they can easily get at them. With the pine tar, I can just attach them to my arms, shirt or pants. Pine tar is your friend. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
It would have been so nice to get a serious answer to my question. As it is I still don't know whether it's okay to use pine or whether after building something I'll spend half a day de-pitching all my handtools.
---Pedro
Pedro,It depends on the pine. The term seems (in Blighty at least) to cover a multitude of softwood timbers. The worst offender I know is southern yellow pine (known as pitch pine in Blighty). The species are slash, loblolly, shortleaf and longleaf; but they all look similar from a woodworkers point of view. However, it's good-looking and tough stuff, akin to a hardwood in many ways. The best is the old-growth that is a century or more out of the tree - reclaimed from factories, barns or other old buildings. The pitch may then have crystallised and this makes it less likely to put sticky stuff on handtool teeth and edges at least. The wood is generally a lot denser than modern stuff as it grew slowly and there is more of an even balance between early and late growth.But even the old stuff can soon dump a good accrual of pitch on to your blades. The new plantation-growth stuff is less pitchy but paradoxically more sticky. You can gum yourself up just picking up a plank!Plane mouths can get a bit stuck up after a while, especially if you have a difficult grain and use the high angle cutting blade, for some reason. (It seems to squodge the sticky stuff out of the wood and clag it around the mouth area). Fine sawteeth can also clog a bit; but it doesn't seem to bother 12 - 15 tpi handsaws, just things like a Zona. It will smear then build-up on a saw's blade after a while.It's worse if you generate heat whilst cutting. It gums up a bandsaw blade something chronic and also puts clag on the tires, which then causes tracking problems. It also sticks to the TCT teeth of a circular saw blade, which then starts to burn the timber, take more push to get the wood through and give a rougher cut. Strangely, it seems to affect the planer blades not a bit.****In all cases, a liberal spray of CMT orange cleaner or similar will soon soften the clag (in a couple of minutes) and allow you to clean it off with a stiff toothbrush then a cloth. It's just a PITA having to do so every now and then. But handtools do suffer less than machine tools.*****I don't use much other pine, although I have had some with the pitch pockets in. This is generally not too sticky - except if you go through a pocket, which is extremely sticky! Apparently Mr Lamello makes a "pocket cutter" along with matching plugs, which those in the framing industries of Europe use to carve out the pitch pockets before gluing in a pocket-shaped plug. Pitch oozing out of the paint on a skirting board or doorframe is not a sign of a quality build.***Here are some FWW references:http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Materials/MaterialsPDF.aspx?id=2209http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=25996There was an article by Jon Arno about pitch pine (loblolly et al) but I can't find it on the FWW site. Perhaps someone remembers the Issue No. ?Mr Arno's FWW articles about timber species are excellent and should be made into a Taunton book.Lataxe
Thank you Lataxe! This was exactly what I was looking for. Wonderful. Very grateful.
Best regards,
---Pedro
Lataxe, and peri,
Your experience and mine are the same as regards machining southern yellow pine. Other pines I've worked may have the odd pocket of pitch, or resinous knot, but are relatively benign to work, compared to that southern stuff. I have had it build up on the bevels and fill in around the gibs of my planer (thicknesser) and jointer knives as well.
As far as carving is concerned, SYP's pitchiness actually improves the quality of a carved surface, imo. It is similar to carving soap, or wax, if soap had a grain direction, and early and late wood ;) The pitch alleviates the fuzziness you often get when carving say white pine. And, even tho the action of carving does not create the amt of friction that say, planing does, just from being in contact with it,you still will end up with a fine layer of pitch on your hands, tool handles, and blades. No need for Mel's tar here.
Lataxe old top, just how much American pine is there in old Blighty, anyways? And how does it compare to your British pine? I've worked on some furniture from your side of the pond that had secondary wood (underlayment for veneer) that I was told was Scots pine, that was similar in grain and slightly less pitchy than our yellow pine.
And is that the same thing as "deal", or is deal sort of the generic English term for any softwood or coniferous wood?
Ray
Ray,Pitch pine is common in older British buildings (Georgian and onwards). It seems most common in Victorian mill or other large buildings, where it's used in very long lengths with thick cross-sections as a load-bearing component - the I-beams of the Victorian age. I made a dining table sourced from a 16 foot long 8" X 8" beam once.It was also stocked by older building firms up until the 60s. Our hoosey was built in 1947 and has old-growth pitch pine skirtings, door frames and other first or second-fix items. The stuff is definitely very old as the pitch in it is well-crytallised and its very dense - up to 0.70 SG. I also once made a bedding chest out of some 14ft 2" X 8" planks that were apparently used as scaffolding planks in a bygone age! They weighed a ton, so gawd-knows how chaps got them up on the steel pipes. As a lot of old mills and factories are knocked down, such pitch pine becomes available - if the eejit builders don't burn it.****Did you know that it was the British that took most of the old-growth pitch pine out of the SE USA, when you were nobbut a colony? The navy used it, not so much for timber but to get the turpentine and tar (the pitch) that it exudes when crushed. They used it for loads of things, not least the caulking of the decks from where the term "British Tar" may arise. Perhaps this is why so much old-growth pitch pine timber accumulated in Blighty?That modern plantation-grown stuff is light and sticky - no good for us furniture lads really, unlesss as a durable secondary wood I suppose.******"Deal" is generally used to refer to various types of Spruce - white and red deal were the common terms. Now, I'm sure I once read that deal was a distinct species and that the spruces, looking a bit like it, became similarly named when it was sold cheaper to the various trades. But I'm not sure.It had to be straight-grained and lightweight, but also durable to be sold as deal. These days it seems to be on the endangered species list (is this the real deal or the spruces - I don't know). But firms still advertise "deal summerhouses" as an alternative to western red cedar. Who knows what it actually is.Scots pine is native to (guess where) but also grows in various guises throughout Europe and Asia. It's called Scots pine or redwood/red pine in Blighty but "red deal" when imported. However, it ain't durable so is not the real deal (or even a good pretend deal; it's a bad deal). This timber in any guise can be almost resin free or absolutely awash with the stuff.I avoids them pines except for the old pitchpine, which is a very attractive wood, especially if something of the cracked, nailed and dirty aspect of an old beam's surface can be incorporated in the furniture.The generic British term for various pines, including spruces, firs and various other softwoods, seems to be "soft pine". Presumably builders (who use it most) care so little about the individual properties of each species that they will use owt! Cowboys!!Lataxe, a tree hugger (they like a cuddle before they are felled).
Lataxe,
Thank you for the informative post on pine, deal and awt else in the softwood realm.
You are the real deal, or at least, a great deal like it.
Incidentally, I read that His Majesty also had dibs on those geet white pine trees in the north east, for the masts of His Highness' dreadnaughts. Greedy bloody man he was, with those tax stamps and all, and lost all he had in these Colonies for his efforts.
Ray the revolutionary
Pedro,
I will always warn you when I am being serious.OK I will be serious for the rest of this message. I have been using pine from the big box stores since I started in 1968. I have never had any problems with pitch, tar or anything else from pine on hand tools. It does build up on my table saw blade, but that is easy to clean. Besides, I am trying to get away from using it so much. I have a bow saw now. (sorry, I slipped there for a second).I don't enjoy carving pine as much as other woods because of its characteristics. It can be carved, and carved well, but I prefer other woods which don't crush as easily. Some furniture begs for the use of pine. But my tastes are changing. I have been moving away from pine and towards figured maple. (I havent found any Jarrah locally (Oops, I slipped again.)Other than the two stated one-sentence slips, my message is straight from the heart. No BS. No overstatements for the sake of drama. Just the kind of information that you would expect to hear exchanged among friends on a square in a nice Spanish city on a warm night after dinner. Hope that helps. It is not any different than you have heard from others. Have fun. Play with the kids. Develop some great medicinal drugs that prevent people who are running for office from exaggerating.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
That CAN happen Pedro and has happened to me. The pitch does indeed stick to hand tools, in my shop, mostly chisels and plane irons. It causes problems when sharpening as that stuff can get into the stones, and I think it contributes to corrosion (not just rust but maybe pits(?) as well.)What I do is hose down my tools with kerosene (or WD-40 which is mostly kerosene) after each day's use. Sometimes I have to scrap stuff off with my fingernail. But this is better done at the end of the day than the end of the week or month. Ditto I don't like getting hide glue on my tools. Sometimes I attack glue drips before they are completely gelled and I get a similar mess on my tools and I apply the same solution. Adam
Thanks Adam (and all the others who offered excellent advice),
I've got some WD-40 on hand so I'll give it a whirl. I've always thought Pine was a rather beautiful wood, and I needed a cheaper alternative to oak and cherry and such for building some dressers and shelves for the kids.
Best,
---Pedro
Adam,
You need a good shop beagle like my dog Mac. When the glue pot (small crock pot) is on, he's like he's on a rabbit waiting for the occasional drips. Now if I could only train him on glue squeeze out clean up........
T.Z.
Tony,Korky the cat (now sadly demised after falling from a tree whilst hunting soporific roosting birds, the only kind he could catch) would go loopy for pau rosa. Unfortunately I only have one billet, which I planed to test a-one of them high angle BU blades. Korky came into the shed (unusual, he dislikes the TS and similar monsters) to investigate and proceeded to roll, nibble and salivate in the shavings. There was much burrrping, slavering and rolling of the eyes.That piece of pau rose is still in the woodstore, complete with Korky teeth marks and dribble stains. I believe he may have been trying to make lurv to it, cat-fashion, rather than eat it.Lataxe, a zoologist
Mac,
Our house beagle is a replacement for our now deceased beagle Molly. Mac came from a beagle rescue mission and is as good a dog as exists on the earth, except for several things: he is a chow hound and will eat whatever he can get in his mouth. He is also a champion crapper (but always outside). Our house cat, Cat, took off several years ago and never returned. She was about 13 or 14 and is still missed.
T.Z.
Pedro,
When I first started carving I used white pine. Did notice a film on the blades so I wiped them down after each session with mineral spirits just in case. I think heat/friction causes more problems with powered cutting tools vs hand tools.
One thing I did notice is that when carving across the soft (summer growth) and hard (winter growth) grain it did tend to cause a rippling effect. Also, blades need to be kept razor sharp at all times.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/26/2008 10:33 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Ed,
I see from the carving on the door panels, you are from Canada eh?
Ray
That's a reaction someone else had, too, Ray, eh? eh?I probably ought to redo the two doors now that I got my proper bench again and am not on drugs and afraid to cough or sneeze so much, but they will still say, eh?Take care, Ed
"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Ed,
Do you know Lee Grindinger?
He had a big effect on me. I tried a number of things that he suggested and they worked for me. I am grateful. About that time, he disappeared from Knots. What do you know about him now? I believe he is from Montana. I get out to Big Sky, Montana each March. If he is not far from Big Sky, I'd like to visit him. Is he still working? Is he in good health? Do you have any suggestions on contacting him?Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
No, I don't know him, Mel - just from knots. He once posted that he was going to give up woodworking and move to the Caribbean, but his web site is still there and it is absolutely awe-inspiring.When I go to MT, I go to visit other folks, though.If you are learning to carve, the article about egg and dart molding that Lee wrote for FWW is a great exercise to follow through. "Instant karma" for learning to carve or starting as a beginner, like me. It starts with a quarter round molding and if you have a wooden molding plane that can "stick" this molding (instead of a router), it is even more fun, imo. Take care, Ed"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Mel,
I found this: http://ruthandlee.com/
Buster
Buster,
Thanks for the contact info for Lee. I will write to him, but it looks like he has dropped out of woodcarving. Can't wait to find out why.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Buster, Ed,I wrote to Lee Grindinger, and I heard back from him -- all in one day. He is doing fine. He is giving up woodworking and becoming a currency trader. He said to give his regards to all his friends on Knots. I believe I will post his message on a new thread. THanks for getting all this to happen.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Giving up woodworking, and trading currency. I hope he avoids dealing in dollars. At the rate things are going, a $ will be worth less than a wooden nickel that you made yourself.
Ray
Ray,
You gotta give Lee Grindinger credit. He made enough money in woodworking to spend a year on an island with his sweetie, and then change careers. That aint bad. Happy THanksgiving.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Ray,I am hoping that Lee Grindinger "currency-trading" remark was a bit of dry humour, as one cannot help but feel it is a great fall to go from making beautiful furniture to grubbing about with dollars to suck out the goodness that might otherwise have been used for a proper purpose, such as buying tools and timber to make furniture.We are off down the tangent just now but oftimes I get thoughts (probably they are a Fabian vestige-meme) concerning the buying of old tools from dealers versus new tools from makers. No matter that it may be irrational in this modern world but I cannot feel pleased at the idea of some scoundrel buying cheap and selling expensive of fine goods made by more worthy chaps. (This feeling is probaby a Protestant Work Ethic meme and should really be drawn out with some tongs immediately).Of course, one does not feel this way about tool renovators or even rescuers. But the others all have the aspect of a pawnbroker or even a King Rat. They add no value and their "service" is mere exploitation. (This may be an anti-middleman meme, over-excited by the rip-off Britain culture, in which 28 levels of "distributors and retailers" all add their 25% mark-up until everything costs 300 X what it costs the factory to make).Of course, who am I to cast aspidistras? I am a pensioner with a pension leached from the pockets of all them taxpayers.Lataxe, probably a confused romantic and certainly no economist.
David,
" am hoping that Lee Grindinger "currency-trading" remark was a bit of dry humour, "
To really be good at something, one must be able to rise above it and look down and see how things really are. Did you ever watch a good pool player and a new pool player. THe new player is looking with his eyes close to the table -- checking the agle for the current shot. The good player is standing back, seeing how he can adjust the fist shot so that he makes it easier to make the next shot and so on.
I believe the same is true for woodworking. The person who looks too closely at the shape of his block plane, or is wondering if his 30,000 grit Shapton is good enough, has his eyes too close to his work. He needs to stand back and look at things to see their relationships, and to see relative values of different moves.
Same is true of antiquarians who judge the authenticity of an antique by looking at it from afar, to see if everything fits, while the newbie in antiques is checking to see if there are plane marks on the bottom of the drawer.
Lee is one of those people who can stand back and look at woodworking or at his special niche (carving), and see how things are fitting into his world. He has decided to regroup. The ability to think deeply, to re-evaluate, and to reorient when it seems appropriate, are the marks of a genius.
Stand farther back from your work. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I stood back further from your post but it still looks like a cloud of smoke with a big balloon floating about in it.Also, I would like your "compleat assessment of a person's character and motives from three o' his remarks" software, so that I too can know the mind of internet avitars projected by folk I never met. This would go well with my "construct a picture of a person from his posts" software, the result of which I daren't show concerning one Mel of Knots. Lataxe, always on the lookout for a new psychology scam.
Edited 11/28/2008 5:26 pm ET by Lataxe
David,
"I would like your compleat assessment of a person's character and motives from three o' his remarks".I don't do such things. When I want to do a full and compleat assessment of a person's character, I usually do an out-of-body experience. My spirit journeys to view behaviours of the person being analyzed. You have surely seen Star Trek, and you know about "mind melds". Well, I have been doing "spirit-melds". After this experience, I know the person better than they know themselves. For example, ask me anything you would like to know about yourself.I am beginning to like this spirit stuff. I am also working on a new woodworking approach, which melds what I have learned from George Nakashima and Derek Cohen. I want to go beyond what Nakashima did. He merely listened to the wood. I want to work with the wood and to actually influence the way it behaves. To do that I will use psychoanalytic techniques, which I have modified from those used by Derek right here on Knots. The wood will not be as difficult to work with, after I finished using the George-Derek-Mel (GDM) methodology on it. What do you think?Mel
PS - If you dont mind, would you answer this message but post the answer over in the BIG THREAD. Sure would like to make 5000 by Christmas. You can see how far I am stretching to do that. Some of my writing is farther out than some of yours.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I want to go beyond what Nakashima did. He merely listened to the wood. I want to work with the wood and to actually influence the way it behaves. To do that I will use psychoanalytic techniques, which I have modified from those used by Derek right here on Knots.
Heh! Remember Mel, You have to Listen to the wood, Really Listen. And Delve back to childhood influences. Find the acorn in the oak. All trees have their separation traumas - the threat of growing up apart from other trees, the fear of lightening at night, and the footsteps of The Logger. Consider the sexual content - of being cut down in your prime (the unkindest cut of all), and later the claustrophobia of being one log hemmed in among so many others.
Be supportive, listen well, and encourage your little piece of timber to shake off the shackles of their fears, to show their true grain, and go forth into the world as a sideboard.
Regards from Perth
Derek (amateur humourist, professional watsit)
Edited 11/28/2008 9:54 pm ET by derekcohen
Derek (amateur humourist, professional watsit),I think the best way to do humor is as an amateur. Professional humorists are under a lot of pressure, which doesn't lend itself to humor. Your message was a hoot. From now on, I will definitely look for the acorn in the oak. I have been wondering how to make BIG MONEY in woodworking. I thought about the tool trade but that would be too big a test of my metal. So I may go after the woodworkers with the big bucks who want training. Having just watched the movie "School of Rock", I think that opening a School of Woodworking, in much the same vein ((or is it "in the same vain"?) If I do, I will steal your idea and call it "Acorn in the Oak". We will start each day by reading exerpts from Eric Sloan's "Reverence for Wood", singing a few verses of "Norewgian Wood", and then 15 minutes of meditation on finding the Acorn in the Oak -- all to help us attain a closer relationship with the wood --- so it doesn't do anything against our grain, and we don't do anything against its grain. Humor, that last bastion of sanity. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel the school marm,
in much the same vein ((or is it "in the same vain"?)
It's grain man! A school that goes against the Grain!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/29/2008 9:30 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Lataxe,
Funny isn't it how one tangent leads to another, then another. Pretty soon we may all be talking about what is really interesting to us!
I have often bought old tools, some in need of re furbishing, some already furbished, from antique tool dealers. And have had this very conversation with other wannabe buyers of cheap, albeit good tools. Don't we all wannabe? I have a couple thoughts on this topic, what a surprise...
Those purveyers, gots to acquire them tools someplace don't they? Spending all their "free" time at the Vicar's estate sale, and flea markets on Portobello road on the off chance that they will pick up a Norris smoother for a song then mark it up to its market value; that time ought be compensated monetarily summat, no?
But here's the good part. Those fellows who buy and sell tools, often have a specialty that they, in their heart of hearts, collect themselves. And the selling is the way to raise funds for their weakness. Often they'll be agreeable to part with perfectly usable, but not particularly collectable, tools for quite reasonable prices to regain some liquidity in the cash department; chisels, perhaps, or wooden molders, that were riding along in the "box of contents" wherein resided that Spiers infill they really wanted.
Instead of taxing those business men, then giving you the lucre with which to buy their wares, perhaps you can convince your gov't to just take the tools and hand them out piecemeal, sommat like your Drs hand out X-rays? Of course, you'd then have to apply, then wait your turn, if indeed,you are deemed worthy of your planes... OUCH!
You sent me to the dictionary, you rascal, to see just what is an aspidistra. I would tell you that you meant to say, "cast his Persians" , but fear that by so doing I would sound like a pre-Madonna.
Ray
Hi Ed,
Great post.
Ahhh, the good ol days back in camp. Never did much woodworking in there and may be one reason I still have all the digits.
Jon Arno was a hoot! I used to search Knots for old posts with his name and found some real fur flying discussions. He brought a passion to Knots that I was never fortunate enpigh to be there for. Also saw many posts from Lee too. Yeah, I guess they were right up there.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Bob,
I've been here all along.
Ray, a legend in his own mind
Edited 11/25/2008 8:10 am ET by joinerswork
Hey Ray,
That's a relief - I was wondering what I would have to say to get you out of the bushes.
Got an idea that's better than the lottery - sell tickets to see Hell freeze over. Pssst, don't tell Mel, he'll steal my idea and make a fortune.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Pedro likened the new plane to a suppository. Did you see that post? I like the thought of JA's left breast or perhaps a mid-line section of the curve of her derriere. That's as close as I would ever get to holding it. Dammit.
Edited 11/24/2008 5:01 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
The curve of the derrier would be for the smoothing plane as it requires both hands to propel as nature intended.
True...
And the price??? You'd think they's aime to be in LN's neighborhood. I can't imagine a block plane that works better than my LN Rabbet block. And it's roughly half the price of the LV Deluxe. What's up with that?
Yeah, it was one of the WTF moments when I looked at it. I think LV is way off the mark here. Maybe it's just the economic times, but my first thought was: Why? The aesthetics of a plane really don't mean very much to me. Reading Dereks review it doesn't seem to work any better, so why bother.
Don't get me wrong I love planes. Some of these 'boutique' planes are just awesome. But this isn't a boutique plane.
Veritas has had a bunch of really cool hand tools come out over the last few years. They seemed to be the quality hand tools with new innovations at a fair price. The plow plane, side rabbet plane, the skew planes, even the dovetail saw. They're all planes I can find a place for in my workshop. This new block plane, I just don't see it.
Edited 11/24/2008 12:48 pm by Buster2000
If you use the one with the racing stripes you should be able to plane faster. :)
Ben,
Racing stripes? I thought they were air scoops, for the jet-assisted take off--as it flies from your hand and leaves the end of the workbench. What's to hold onto?
Ray
I don't need another block plane and I'm not inclined to pay the LV price for this new plane. However, there is a very neat innovation on this plane that Derek Cohen was responsible for (if I read Derek's review correctly). That is the set screw that retains the Norris style adjuster in the plane. I have a 3 or 4 year old LV block plane that everytime I take the blade out, the adjuster also falls out. Very irritating and kudos for a very simple solution.
As far as the the captured forend of the sole, I've never had an issue with the toe hitting the blade. Do these two noticeable improvements make me want to order one? Definitely not!
I've been asked by my wife what I want for Christmas and so, I've had to take stock of my tool inventory. After reviewing all the catalogs that have arrived over the past few days, I really don't see a blamed thing that I need or even anything that I think I need! Don't want no more woodworking books and I don't look at DVDs. Don't go to woodworking classes and couldn't see the need for advancing the art of hero worship by going to the recent PWW event at Berea.
T.Z.
Hi Pedro
I received the new LV dovetail saw today. This is quite a different one to the earlier model I trialed for Lee Valley at the begining of this year. I actually quite like the looks. Different from my LN and IT but attractive all the same - much nicer (slimmer) in person than in picture. I gave it a few cuts before Lynndy called me in for dinner. It cut very nicely. I am impressed. Early days.
You may not want to read this. Just posted to my website today:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasPremiumBlockPlane.html
Mel is sure to hate it! :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 11/25/2008 9:00 am ET by derekcohen
Of course I want to read it! Off I go. I'll report back on completion.
Derek,
"Mel is sure to hate it! :)"Derek, why would you think that? On the contrary,
I am so excited by what you wrote about the new LN premium block planes, that I am going to go out and buy one, just as soon as I hear that Richard Jones, Ray Pine and Rob Millard have bought theirs.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
All,
I just read the last bunch of messages in this thread. I just don't understand why Buster and so many of the others have problems with paying a lot of money for another plane which is very nice looking but probably no better or worse than existing planes which cost much less and are easier to re-sell on EBay. Why are you guys so interested in saving money? The stock market it tanking. Just buy planes. You'll be better off doing that then investing in the S&P500.Why are you guys so stuck on functionality? Why do things have to work well? Why do you make fun of little people who run big companies, and are just trying to get buy (oops, I meant "get by".)Why do you ask such hard questions?How is industry going to get out of the slump unless we all go out and buy a lot of stuff? Don't you guys care about the economy?You know, we should get the US government, and the Canadian govt and the other governments to take a few measly billions out of their bailout packages, and put them into woodworking firms. Lets take people off the street and create jobs for them in the woodworking tool industry. We can turn the homeless into designers and builders of fine hand planes, chisels, and spokeshaves. The world will be a better place.I am reminded of an American politician who coined the phrase "nattering nabobs of negativism."Be positive. Go out there and BUY BUY BUY. Mel (who has had far too much coffee, and who can't keep a straight face)PS - I have enjoyed this thread. It renews my faith in woodworking humanity. Buster, I am proud of you, and the rest of the folks who asked hard questions. PPS - This thread is only about relatively inexpensive hand planes. Just think if we had been talking about the most important tool in a woodworker's shop -- the linisher. If we start talking about linishers, we can really get down to business.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Not only are you the most likely to hit the "Message Truncated" mark of all the knots posters, now I see that you are also the most likely to quote Spiro Agnew. Your capacity for surprise is unlimited.
"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Ed,
I didn't use Spiro Agnew's name, because I didn't think anyone would recognize it. And the youngsters wouldn't believe anyone could have a name like that. Good to hear from you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I just don't understand why Buster and so many of the others have problems with paying a lot of money for another plane which is very nice looking...
Everybody knows that my interest in glittering objects is long over after the darn engagment ring fiasco... Who knew that when you give a gliitering rock to a woman she takes control of your tool budget!
Buster,
"Who knew that when you give a gliitering rock to a woman she takes control of your tool budget!"Ya gotta keep SWMBO happy. There are no viable alternatives. (I take it that you know that SWMBO means "She Who Must Be Obeyed"). I got into woodwork to have something to do while my new wife was doing her hobby, decorative stitchery and quilting. That was in 1969. She is still quilting and I am still woodworking. Of course, three kids and now one grandkid (soon to be two) have intervened. I learned early in the game that making sure she is happy is a good thing. Isn't that what love is all about? It is actually what life is all about. I wish you and your sweetie the best.
Want to make her happy? Start making toys. :-)
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, I'd be happy to do my patriotic duty by buying a bunch of new tools. Where do I apply for a government bail in that would allow me to do so? ;-)
Mel,You are one confused puppy dawg! You admire various woodworkers because of their work yet you detest others who do very good work just because they also teach others how to do so.You're doing that "either-or" thang again. All teachers are not demagogues, pedants or martinets. Many teach versatility rather than the slavish following of hard and fast methods. Nevertheless one also needs a teacher who is specific and actually imparts information. Your ideal teacher seems to be someone who gets a class together then buggers off for a cup of tea whilst they all mill about fending for themselves! "I cannot tell you owt as you must find out for yourselves. The bandages are over there and the hospital's emergency number is......"I think your position on this issue is untenable because i) it's self-contradictory and ii) it's based on wildly wrong assumptions about both teachers and the process of learning.****Meanwhile, I am performing a test and parsing all your posts for any tool recommendations you have made, such as them great bitey things from King Arfur. We cannot have hypocrisy on top of illogic. :-/Lataxe, who sometimes just prefers to buy a fish.
Lataxe,
If you read my posts closely, you will see that I am advising you to buy all the tools made by Festool, Wixie and Fein. :-)
Mel
PS every one of your posts is a gem.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Morning Mel,
OK, I got one for ye: Go down to your local Ace Hardware store and pick up a Master Mechanic backsaw and cut dovetails with it. I think the one I bought was $14.95, el cheapo.
Try cutting dovetails with it right out of the box so to say. During this process you'll learn a lot about how you want the saw to work for you. Take it over to your bench and sharpen it and try it again. May need to repeat this several times but at some point you will know when it works for you.
Reading between the lines of the above one will see there are many skill sets that one must go through to get that saw to cut, for you. That has been a successful recipe for me to gain confidence too.
In my opinion tool reviews are a good way to get to know what's out there but they can in no way tell me what I need in the way of any one tool.
Hell, I'd be willing to bet that, given enough time anyone could cut dovetails with just a regular handsaw and a sharpened screwdriver.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/24/2008 7:29 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Ah, Mel, you need to be more subtle and understated. I won't rise to the bait if you are so obviously just being ridiculously provocative.
I'll tell you a secret: I don't use saws at all to cut my dovetails; I use dental floss and tooth powder. I saw a movie where prisoners used the floss, when sprikled with the powder to cut through steel bars. Works in wood too. A bit on the slow side, but very easy to control with great precision once you get the hang of it.
View Image
Edited 11/21/2008 1:31 pm ET by Samson
Sean,
Do all of the flosses work the same, or is one better than the others. I wasn't being provocative to cause trouble, but merely to point out a different way of thinking. It may not be popular around here, but it works for some people. As a psychologist in NASA for 30 years, I got used to feeling like a Methodist in the middle of a meeting of the Catholic Bishops. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Do all of the flosses work the same, or is one better than the others?"
I'm especially frugal, like you and Ray, so I only use whatever the dentist gives me as a sample when I go in for a cleaning. I do find the waxed less effective, and the spearmint green floss clashes smell-wise with the peppermint tooth powder, and doesn't make as delightful a "doublemint" as you might hope.
Samson,I go to the dentist next week for the 6-month probe. It is the pong of rubber glove feelin' for some work to do that I have come to detest.Still, there is a white-uniformed assistant to take one's mind away from any high-pitched whining or excessive probing down an 'ole. She may wear rubber gloves as much as she likes.The wee bog brushes for poking 'atween the gnashers are my favourite dental tool. They come in various diameters and are good for cleaning out the pores of oak one at a time (to ensure that perfect natchl look after the finish has gone on).Lataxe, crowned and bridged to buggery.
Lataxe,
I don't know if you do any refurbishment of old furniture. If the need arises to strip the old piece, those dental picks come in handy in cleaning up the carved portions. So try to sweet talk the dental assistant into giving you some of the old worn out ones. I wonder what tools that Pedro has from work that can help in woodworking???
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I'm always surprised that Pedro hasn't yet devised a prosthetic that one straps on to control tool-actions perfectly and with extra force (a bit like that cybernetic suit the policeman wears in the fillum starring Peter Weir, the name of which I can't remember). He could then plane through them knots he enjoys attacking and possibly make a whole cabinet with nothing but a Blue Spruce fishtail chisel and a bowsaw of 3 tpi.As to dental picks - a friend bought me a couple a few months ago and I kept them in the apron top pocket - until I got tired of pricking, slicing and otherwise progging myself every tme I reached up there for the pencil or the 6 inch ruler..... They live on the magnetic rack now. They are good for scraping and poking off them little bits that get in the crevices.Lataxe, who needs eye, ear, toof and various other body-support technology.
Lataxe,
Great post. It reminded me of an interesting "advertisement" that was published in "Banjo News" back in the late 1970s. It asked if the reader wanted to be able to play the banjo like five different great banjo players. If so, they should send $1200 and they will receive a device that can strap on their hand which would make them play just like the expert player of their choice. It turns out that the "advertisement" was only a joke. The publishers thought that it was so funny and so outrageous and so unbelievbable thatt they didn't need to openly state that it was a JOKE.Guess what? They received a number of checks, which they returned quickly. They published a big article stating that it was only a joke. Stupidly enough, many people were disappointed.I believe we could do the same thing in Fine Woodworking for a "exoskeleton robotic device" which would allow you to chop dovetails as fast and as well as Frank Klaus. Or would you like to cut them like Rob Cosman? Or would you like to be able to plane like Lataxe?Wanna make some money?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"I believe we could do the same thing in Fine Woodworking for a "exoskeleton robotic device" which would allow you to chop dovetails as fast and as well as Frank Klaus. Or would you like to cut them like Rob Cosman? Or would you like to be able to plane like Lataxe?"
Actually, the market's already flooded with those - they're called "dovetail jigs" meant for powered routers. ;-)
DK,I'm waiting for a woodrat that will take a Blue Spruce DT chisel - or even three! (No I'm not). :-)Lataxe, who occasionally discovers inner muscles and skellington bits he never knew he had.
Samson,
Does the wax also interfere with finishes? I would think that floss, unlike the traditional tool, doesn't have enough tooth.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I use oil types and shellac, so no problem with the wax for me. The floss may not have tooth, but my dovetails have never had gingivitis.
Why are Frank Zappa lyrics suddenly running through my head? :-)Movin to Montana soon
Gonna be a dental floss tycoon.....FZ (RIP)If you build it he will come.
Mel,
I frequently say that I am a tool user, not a collector. And, wouldn'y you know, at last weekend's tool collector's get together, I came home with three more tools that I needed. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it. Two mortising chisels, 1/4" and 3/8" , a Brookes and a Marples, both Sheffield. Not Isles, I know, but I got them anyway, now I just need a 5/16", and maybe a 1/2". And a beautiful (that's not why I bought it, hah) little brass and steel set of proportional dividers. It was a lucky thing, for I didn't even know I needed those, til I saw them. They'll come in handy transferring details from photos to working drawings, I'm thinking. I showed them to another attendee at lunch, and he called me a "crow"! That's how pretty they are, and how envious he was. It never ceases to amaze me how after 35+ yrs of working wood, there are still tools out there that I don't have, and yet, really need. Now, if I can just finagle my way into some of that $700 billion bailout cash, I may find that I need a Marcou high angle smoother-- the one with the black plastic totes-- for those snarly tropical hardwoods that I'll then need to buy to use it on....
Cheers,
Ray
Ray,How much do you want for those little brass and steel proportional dividers. Now that I see you need one, I need one too. Once I talked to Bill Clinton about the meaning of the word "need". He expanded my mind.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Woodworking and tools are inseparable.
If you have a dovetail saw that works well for you, why are you interested in others.
I never actually said I had a dovetail saw. I said I have LN saws. A rip and a crosscut. I guess the PAX saw is a dovetail... but I try to forget that I have that one. I've been considering getting it 'fixed' but it's not a cheap process.
IMHO, SKILL is far more important than tools.
I agree. Learning new skills is part of the reason I enjoy woodworking. That said I also enjoy using high quality tools. When I pick up some tools, they just feel right. Good skill, and quality tools are not mutually exclusive, in fact I could argue that one needs quality tools to do good woodworking. (Note: Quality doesn't mean new.)To me, the best way to improve in woodworking, is not to focus too much on tools, but to increase the size of the chunks of your skills, so that you aren't thinking about the darn dovetail saw anymore, and you are thinking about the larger issues. I realize I am out of step with most of the Knots world.
Only when a tool functions as it should can you look past at the bigger picture.
I know your in the 'enlightened' crowd that wants to hang out in my living room rather than my shop. But I'm a woodworker, I want to see your work and then I want to see how it came into being. The only place to truly understand that is in the shop.
Buster
Buster,
Loved your response. I wouldn't have written you a fun message if I didn't know that you know how to have fun. See my response to Samson (Sean).I sure hope we get to see each other's shops some day. You are always invited to mine. It includes a free lunch or dinner prepared on the grill. While I try to be "enlightened", and I try not to "collect" tools, I gotta admit that I have not reached the highest plateaus of nirvana -- I still drool at the sight of a picture of one of Philip's magnificent planes. I would love for all of my friends on Knots to take up a collection and buy me a Marcou and a Holtey so I can check out the differences. While I do drool over beautiful tools, it really was my blue collar upbringing that keeps me in the "skill" over the "tool" fascination. Of course, being retired, and the fall of the stock market doesnt help either. Since I work at Woodcraft a few afternoons a week, I can buy tools pretty cheap (10% over cost), so the temptation to buy tools is everpresent. I have to work to keep it in check. My wife helps too.Keep up the great questions. Next time I will actually try to answer the question rather than to stir up the Knots-nest for a great discussion. As a "sort of" answer to your question. I haven't use that dovetail saw, but i have the greatest respect for the LV group. They do well at selecting and at designing, testing and selling excellent tools. If it wasn't so darn cold up there in Canada, I might just move up there, just so I could be near one of the LV shops. :-) ((Now my LN friends are going to be upset))Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I wouldn't have written you a fun message if I didn't know that you know how to have fun.
At least we're onthe same page. I always enjoy your posts... but almost always disagree!
I'm financial conservative, and the idea of sharpening all those planes and chisels... My woodworking 'tool' budget fell off early 2007. I was finding that it was getting harder and harder to buy tools I needed. I now have a modest tool 'want list' and I wait for christmas or my birthday.
Money has gone into the shop to rebuild it after the move, but that's a matter of setting up shop... which is nearly complete.
I sure hope we get to see each other's shops some day. You are always invited to mine. It includes a free lunch or dinner prepared on the grill.
Virginia is a fair clip away... but if you ever make it to Calgary, your welcome to visit the 'Bro Cave' (as it's currently known).
Buster,Going to Canada is always a pleasure. My oldest son married a Canadian girl. That makes me an "honorary Canadian". Whether we agree or disagree on woodworking philosophy does not count for much. What counts is whether we enjoy the process. That's why we all define the process a little differently.I heard a wise man once say that the great thing about George W Bush is that he makes everyone feel superior. Perhaps that is my function here on Knots. :-)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
What counts is whether we enjoy the process.
I hear you.. I just did that for the China girls beds.. Maybe the most expensive beds ever made by anybody. I was using Panga-Panga and Sapele (Sapele was Quarter sawn). I went back and it is all gone! So I saw these wide and tall Santos boards that I thought would be perfect to use. I was NOT thinking at the time and asked to have them cut in half. No extra charge from Owl Hardwoods.. I needed 80 inches eash half. And cut in half was two inches shorter than I wanted. NO.. I did not saw anything.. MY mistake but... I am sure I measured it correct! Or did I?
Then I remembered.. The youngest girl said at one time,, She is only 4 years old.. I think.. She wanted a Toy box at the foot of her bed.. PERFECT use for the wood.. Now onto ANOTHER project I must do.. I'll never be finished..
Going to Canada is always a pleasure.. Except if you go there with tools??
I for one love anybody that is sort of reasonable.. USA Customs were NEVER kind to me Period.. At any time.. I guess I fit some profile.. That was way before 9/11.. I gave up flying anywhere..
And I thought I was a nice guy?
Agitator Mel,
While skill is certainly important, you do need the proper tools. All the tools you listed are designed to cut straight and cleanly (hackasawa nota soa mucha). I think that a good dovetail saw is called for if you intend to cut to the line. I would put a gents saw in the dovetail saw category - it's a fine toothed, backed saw. Sure the bandsaw and table saw are equally capable, but they are not hand tools. Let's just talk hand tools here, shall we?
I do like your definition of a good woodworker, but of course there are limitations. The best woodworker can't go to a poorly equipped shop and turn out a masterpiece. You really do need tools. Cheap blades, can, however, be sharpened more frequently, and saws can be refiled to take a finer cut. If you really wanted, you could turn a crosscutting panel saw into a ripping dovetail saw with enough work.
Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 11/21/2008 1:55 pm by flairwoodworks
Chris,So you need good tools do you?Let me tell you a story. There is a style of playing five string banjo, in which one emulates the fiddle player. It is the most difficult style to play on the banjo. Most notes played in bluegrass are more like an arpeggio. I heard of one guy who was playing in the style in which every note is a melody note, and none can be skipped. While playing his solo, he broke a string. EEEEEGGGGGAAAAADDDD. Disaster for almost everyone, except this guy never slowed down. He knew the keyboard so well, that he just played the notes on other strings. NOW THAT IS SKILL!!!!!!I am all for "good tools". I just am not a fan of "Searching for the best tools". You could take all the time you spend searching for the "best" tools, and spend it more wisely by trading messages on Knots. :-)Have fun. All of the LV tools that I have used have been VERY VERY GOOD. I am a fan.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I suppose you could cut a fine dovetail with a saw and a chisel, but you would have greater difficulty without either.
It does take a great deal of skill, knowledge, and experience to pull off what the musician in your example did, but given a drum set, he'd be hooped. So what I'm saying is that while you don't need the best tools, you do indeed need the proper tools. Or something like that - I'm getting there.
I'm also a fan.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
"So what I'm saying is that while you don't need the best tools, you do indeed need the proper tools."Yup, that is what I meant to say. You said it much better than I could. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,If you wish to play wannabee curmudgeon then you must take orf that "have fun" and similar exhortations from the bottom of your drones. Also, as Samson says, the bait you dangle needs to be a bit smaller and more rotten, to attract a Big Fish.One day you may also learn to be succinct, like moi. :-)LataxePS You've got to admit, Mr Lee has done another fine innovation - along with a marketing gleam that will certainly gain him more fish than your anti saw-fun attempt. Even Adam has grasped a-one firmly by its modern handle. And it's got fibre glass in it!!
Lataxe,
I can't fool you. You see too deeply into the souls of woodworkers. You must be in cahoots with the devvil herself.I am a fan of the entire LV movement. It is a good company, and is to be emulated.I am not trying to be a curmudgeon. You will note that I never try to convince others to take my position. I simply "have fun" stating my position. I urge others to do the same. After all is said and done, the sheer simplicity and beauty of the truths I have spoken will be self evident. Of course, that may be centuries away. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Not everyone has a dovetail saw that works well or even at all. Some even may be wanting to try hand cut dovetails, but be put off by $135 saws, and be distrustful of the significantly cheaper alternatives, such as the hacksaw or the Asian style saws. So posting information about a new model, from a usually capable manufacturer, at a meaningfully more affordable price is hardly to be jumped on. The comment on skill versus tool might make sense if the new choice being touted were the $500 model with gold inlaid etching. I sure agree skill is important, but there is a reason to buy tools that inspire confidence. That's not an issue about "collecting", or anything, it's just about finding one's own comfort zone.
It's also important to note that amateurs may quite often not have the time to build the full skill set. Should we be saying to these people--don't bother to learn to do dovetails unless you can take the EXTRA time needed to master the task with lesser quality tools.
Steve,
I think that you are on the right track. It's not the quality of the tool that is as important as skill and confidence. In the hands of an inept user, the finest saw will not do a nice job. The same goes for a talented user lacking confidence.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Steve,
I believe that for the most part, if you can ride one bicycle, you can ride another (there are a few exceptions). Once you figure out dovetails and can cut them with one saw, you should be able to use a variety of other saws to do the same thing. It might take you a few minutes to get used to the saw which is new to you, and you may not be able to get as precise results as you could with the one you have been using for a while, but I believe you can figure it out and do good enough. So what if your dovetail doesn't have paper thin lines on all edges? That is minor when taken in context of the entire Chippendale Highboy that you are building. That is my take on things. I may be the only one who feels that way but, that's life. I never ask others to adopt my beliefs. I just state them because it causes others to state theirs, and those ideas cause me to think. (a good thing). Good to hear from you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Let us join in a short bicycle race of 5 miles or so; I will have that 58 pound single-geared kiddie-bike with the fat tires and you can have the 16 pound carbon-fibre job kitted out with S. Campagnolo's best.Now, I have some experience in that racing whereas you probably have trembly wee legs in yer trooser. Still, we both can ride a bike, as you mention. Now, who do you think will place best in that race? LataxePS Here's a clue - I probably won't finish but might be found after the first 2 miles jumping up and down on that offensive steed of mine. You will be in the clubhouse, enjoying a mocha coffee with frangelica in it.
Lataxe,
Your genius is made evident quite often by your ability to ask questions which cause the reader to have to think! This is a wonderful gift that you have.So you want to have a race on bicycles. One of us will get the sleek expensive bike, and one gets the beach cruiser.Interesting question. I tend to do two things in bicycling, One is to go with the heavier bike, and two is to not do any racing. The heavier bike gets me in better shape. Racing is for those who have things to prove. I have nothing to prove. I know I am not in the shape I need to be in. So the heavier bike is the best bike for me. Leave the lighter more expensive ones for the people who buy Holteys.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
When I began learning to cut dovetails, I used a very inexpensive Western saw. I could manage to get nice ones done but with a lot of paring, and rather tedious cutting. I then did try a Japanese saw, it worked better, but still had some elements that I wasn't comfortable with. But I was gifted with a L-N. Wow. The saw went the same way it was started, etc. I'm still not a wiz, but it's much more comfortable. Maybe I didn't need to go all the way to an L-N, but who knew. And, if I were at the same stage today, I might have moved to the L-V much earlier, and little more than half the price. That's exactly the possiblities that should be explored on forums such as this. Someone may make the experiment first, so that others need not.
That's an entirely separable issue from saying, if I practice more and develop more skills I will have an easier time cutting dovetails. Sometimes when skills have developed more fully, it is easier to recognize problems with tools, as in "Oh, it's not just me, this tool has its set done wrong and pulls to the left." A beginner can't distinquish that from his own lack of skills, saying "Darn I'm such a klutz I can't make the saw do straight cuts."
Steve,
I use both the LN and a dozuki. I like both. For years I used two computers, a PC and a Mac. One at work and one at home. Using the two different models kept me from seeing only the good or the bad in one or the other. With computers, I like to focus on the job I am doing, not on the particular computer. Same with woodworking. I like to focus on the furniture, not on the tool. Please realize that I realize that my attitudes towards tools are not widely accepted by folks in Knots world. I focus on "skills more than tools", and not "Skills rather than tools". I am not trying to get others to think the same way. Lataxe likes to focus on Marcou planes. That's fine. I don't want to change him. He is just fine the way he is. I want younger woodworkers to know that there is an alternative which is just as valid and just as viable. The newbie can choose whichever approach they want. I wan't them to know there is a choice!!Read the posts of professional woodworkers. They tend not to focus on tools. By the way, I always read your posts. I have always thought of you as a "skills guy". Indeed, you are one of the best of the best. I don't admire your tools. I admire you use of tools. I admire you focus on excellence. Having said that, Lataxe is going to accuse me of "hero worship" again. Steve, if I was younger, I'd ask if I could be your apprentice, so that I could try to attain your level of skills. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
the Woodcraft Dozuki.
I have one! Sure makes NASTY cuts!
I have one. It cuts great. It seems to be designed as an entry level western saw to compete with dozukis. If you don't have a dt or don't have a western dt and want to try a good one for under $100US, this saw is an excellent choice.
I didn't really follow Mel exactly. What I took away is that skill is more important than the saw. I think that's right. I can cut dts with a hack saw and have. Sawing is sawing. But a good saw makes a big difference. Other entry level western saws require significant filing to bring them into usability. This one doesn't. And there's a big difference between a gent's saw and a pistol grip saw. If you are sawing dt's all morning (making drawers or dt'ing a carcass for example), the pistol grip handle is much much easier to use.
I don't know if the stats are on the website yet (haven't checked, but my saw has about 15tpi with what looks like 20degrees of rake. This is too coarse for 1/4" stock IMHO. The rake will slow the cut in 4/4 stuff, especially softer woods like mahogany. But for an all around dt and occassional tenon, it's good. The weight balance, and handle hang angle are all well done.
But like any tool, I need to build something with it to really get to know it. So I may change my mind about this saw in the future. For now I think it's terrif
Adam
Even to a dedicated dozuki dude like me, this is an attractive saw. Nice design with some materials-innovation sprinkles. Not that I'd buy one, but knowing about it has worth, and seeing it was a visual mini-treat.
While I agree with Mel's thoughts about the distraction from actual woodworking, I think it's sort of like "those" kind of photographs. We've all seen the subject matter before, but that doesn't stop us from looking. ;-)
I too looked at the saw, and it's price, and immediately wanted it. True, the saw looks different but so what. I am 6'7" tall and have very large hands. I have never found putting my finger along the top of a back saw to be comfortable but I have to do that on most saws given the size of my paws. As soon as I can, I will have the dovetail saw in my shop.
The block planes look wonderful also. I have an excellent LN so I do not need another low angle plane now. The old Stanley plane has a reground blade to make it a standard angle plane. It works for the minimal use it gets.
As I am developing a wood working business buying tools has become an economic and not so much of an emotional purchase.
-Sid
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