Late last Friday night, I lost the very tips of three fingers while working on my tablesaw. I am profoundly embarrassed by this accident, which is relatively minor as far as tablesaw accidents go, but want to post a few comments in the hope they will help others avoid such a mishap.
I have always considered myself extremely safety-conscious. But I am a hobbyist at this, and I think woodworking poses particular dangers to hobbyists, who need to be doubly conscious of shop safety. For one thing, we haven’t put in the hours of professionals, so the good work habits are not as deeply ingrained. More importantly, I think, hobbyists squeeze in shop time whenever they can, and this can sometimes be a mistake. I think contributing to my accident was the fact that I was ripping a board at 11 pm on a Friday night. After a full week at the office, my mind was no doubt too fatigued and too crowded to be working with power tools. My accident happened so quickly that I’m still not sure what occurred, but I believe that after ripping a board, I turned the saw off, and not being completely focused mentally, I tried to remove the offcut before the blade had stopped spinning.
Ironically, the rip cut was for the fence of a crosscut sled I was making, in part to make crosscutting safer. I had just attached the runners to the base and had removed the blade guard to test the platform in the miter-gauge tracks. The last thing I was going to do for the night was cut the fence for the sled, and I didn’t take the time to replace the blade guard before making that final cut.
A good hand surgeon has stitched me up, and in a few weeks you’ll have to look closely to see that two of my fingers are a little shorter and have shorter nails than their kin on my other hand. But I’ve got a couple new resolutions: (1) No working with power tools after 8 pm, and (2) no more laziness with the blade guard, even if I’m putting it on for only one cut.
Hope my fellow hobbyists can learn from my unfortunate moment of inattention.
Norman
Replies
sorry about you accident...
the rule of thumb i always learned is, never reach over the blade.
Expert since 10 am.
Sorry to hear about your fingers.
Thanks for the reminder. Reading the forums you always get the yahoo's who think safety features on the table saw are a joke. Your story proves them wrong; even smart people occasionally do the wrong thing.
I hop eyour recovery goes well.
Norman,
Best wishes for a speedy, full recovery. And thanks for documenting your accident here on the forum. Likely someone will benefit from hearing of your accident.
Keep us posted,
Lee
I am very sorry for your accident and hope that everything heals quickly.
It is a great safety reminder to get a firsthand account of an accident, thank you for posting.
Heal quick! Thanks for telling your story.
I don't know what kind of guard you've got, but for what it's worth, I love my Brett Guard as it is so easy to take off and put on for different operations and will work for dadoing, unlike some guards with built in splitters.
On a side note, does anyone know whether a SawStop would fire in a situation where like this where the saw is off, but the blade is still spinning?
My reading of the SawStop manual is that yes, the brake would fire while the blade spins down. The safety system is powered up separately from the saw motor so it can still function in cases like this.
Out of the SawStop manual.....
Blade is Coasting Down — this code indicates that the blade is coasting down and that the safety system is ready to activate the brake if contact is detected. The safety system detects the rotation of the motor to be activated. ------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Thanks, I was curious, but figured they must have accounted for this sort of thing.
Sorry to hear about your accident.
I did the same thing to a finger a few years ago on my jointer. It's odd how I can't remember exactly how my finger came to be in a position to touch the blades either, but I do remember that the blades hit my finger three times before I pulled it away. This happened 2-3 years ago and it is still tender. (Both my finger & my ego).
Best of luck on a speedy recovery.
Jim
Sorry to hear about your accident too.
At roughly 7,000 rpm head speed, and assuming a three blade head, the jointer would need only .0086 (8 thousandths) of a second to hit your finger three times. Power tools are FAST!
Have you seen the PWW Blog thread where Glenn Huey suggests forgoing pads and sticks at the jointer in favor of gloved hands? It's going on now. Perhaps you could weigh in?
Sorry to hear of the accidents. I've been witness to similar in machine shops.Gloves on a jointer? Foolish and dangerous beyond belief....Jeff
Yes. Don't do it! I did about a week ago. Jointing some rough wood with gloves. I had been moving a lot of wood into the basement and still had the gloves on when I started rough surfacing it on my 6" jointer. A bit of going too fast and not paying enough attention the little finger of the left hand glove disapeared in an eyeblink. The only thing I remember was the vibration and it was gone! My finger was ok; the gloves were a bit big for me which saved my pinky. Never again.
Thanks for the post and reminder. I just asked a question about a blade guard in another thread about the swing up bench top planer.
Samson also has a great question on the Sawstop and I have a further suggestion or question. Can an interlock be designed in that would not allow a tool to be powered up if the factory installed safety mechanisms are in any way compromised or disabled?
Would we be willing to buy into such devices or is it too "nanny state" type thinking?
Wishing you a full recovery and that the nerves all heal.
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Edited 1/24/2008 6:04 pm by oldbeachbum
I am sorry for your accident and hope you have a complete recovery. I would like to point out that, if anything, I am aware of more professionals than amateurs who have such accidents. I believe that they become so confident and blase about the work and the tools, they believe they can control the situation. Heck, they have been doing it for 20 years and not had a problem yet. Such was the story of my secretary's father who had worked in a cabinet shop for 20-25 years. While amateurs may make some mistakes by accident they are usually more frightened of the potential of the tools and more cautious.
There is an informal survey on one of these sites that backs up your experience. The more experience the more servere the accident. Amateurs reported a higher incedent of kickbacks. I'll see if I can dig it up.
sorry to hear about the fingers. That's going to happen to my shop teacher soon enough 99968.1. I know a lot of people who remove the guard because they are a hassle. That proves another thing: always get an easy to use blade guard and adjust it so that it wont interfer or pose a major dangerr
"It is like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer: it feels so good when you stop"
Hi Andy,
You going to build up as many posts here as across in the Tavern? Have you been into the Cafe yet? Or heard back from Coltfanru?
Gentlemen of KNOTS, meet Andy and check his profile. He is young, willing to learn and ambitious. Please be patient and guide him well. He may show you the project he recently completed.
bum
He is served in the Tavern, but, only sassparilla. ;0)...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
going to take a while to catch up. I forgot to post my box here, woops. Pic of a triangular cornertable from shopclass coming next week. I heard a little from Coltfanru not much thought.
It's cedar w/ a pine bottom and a cherry top.
"It is like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer: it feels so good when you stop"
nboucher,
Very sorry to hear about your accident. Reading your posting has made me a little sick to my stomach thinking I could easily have this happen. I try to be extremely careful knowing what can happen in the blink of an eye, but being a hobbiest myself who tries to fit in all of my woodworking after putting my 2 small children to bed at night I worry this accident could happen to me.
With that said, when will the industry start to take the steps necessary to make these machines safer. Why are the guards provided with these machines so indequate? The table tops are ground steel yet the blade guards are made out of $2 plastic. I have a Delta TS350, which has been a great saw for my needs and perfect for a hobbiest, however the blade guard is garbage. Absolute garbage!! I have already started to save for a Saw Stop since not only is the technology better because of the braking system, but so are the simple things like the blade guard and the riving knife. Honestly how much would it cost to include a quality riving knife and blade guard on every saw sold today?
Heck, Saw Stop saws are so expensive not because the technology they utilize or the cost of production, BUT because their safety features are so far superior to anything on the market!! Nothing is even close and people will pay top dollar for a system proven to protect the user. I just wish other manufacturers will realize that safety sells machines, which would help to make stories like this a thing of the past.
Mike
With all due respect, nothing is going to make these stories completely a thing of the past. Safety starts and ends with you, the machine operator. Follow proper procedures for the machine. Don't use machinery when you are tired. Don't use machinery when you are ill, when you are taking medication. Follow accepted shop practices. Don't wear loose clothing around machinery. Become educated. Follow the rules, and you will be fine. It is the operator that determines if the machine is used safely and safe to use. If you can't do that, you have no business working in a wood shop. Most people work a lifetime and don't get hurt. Luck? I think not.Regards...Jeff
Jeff,
Your points are valid in that it is each of our own responsibility to work safely. With that said, accidents happen in all areas of our lives and addressing these areas of known concern with regard to table saws is the responsibiltiy of the producers of these machines. Car accidents happen. Volvo has spend billions of dollars for the last 20 plus years advertising NOT how fuel efficient their cars are, NOT how great they drive or look, but how they are the SAFEST car on the road. Now all car companies have copied their marketing formula and advertise air bags, crash tests results, offer Onstar, etc..etc...
The same rules apply to the woodworking industry. SawStop saws were rated Best Overall along with the Powermatic by Fine Woodworking and is it a coincidence both come with a riving knife attachment? I think not considering the front cover of the article states, " Finally, safer saws" picturing the riving knife system, with the caption reading "safety on the front burner...considering in 2001 the table saw was the source of 38,000 visits to the emergency room."
The point is that we as consumers should demand that these obvious safety issues, which have been debated long before I started woodworking, be addressed...NOW!!! We should not continue to accept stories likes these as being the SOLE fault of the operator, when had a poperly designed blade guard been provided with this saw this accident is avoidable. Working safe does not guarantee safety, it just reduces the odds of an accident occuring. I believe it is our right to demand that manufacturers do more to help reduce those odds even further.
Mike
What guard replaces itself after the user removes it? What guard does not need to be removed for some cuts? There are a plethora of aftermarket guards on the market, you should purchase one for each operation you do. The table saw is primarily a ripping tool, the guards included with the saw are usually adequate for ripping.
If you want to make crosscuts, dadoes or tenons in perfect safety perhaps you should purchase the tools designed for these tasks. Those who use the table saw for ripping should not be forced to buy accessories they do not need.
Do you gripe because your car did not come with a set of snow tires in the trunk?
What guard will protect you from reaching over the blade after a tenoning cut or a dadoe when you are tired or distracted?
In the real world using sharp rotating tools for an operation they were not designed for is going to result in a certain amount of injuries. It is to the posters great credit that in spite of his embarassment he told us exactly what happened and why. It reminds us that it can happen to any of us and reminds us to follow procedures and listen to that little voice that tells us we are too tired or maybe we are doing something that is not such a good idea.
Start demanding that someone make everything safe for you and you will wind up being schooled and licensed and taxed to a fare thee well and forced to use a tool that is nearly unuseable due to all of it's "safety" features.
You want more safety? Go buy it, it's out there. Want to use a tool for something it was not designed for? Quit whining. If you cannot afford the proper tool or guards and accessories neccessary to make the operation safe and are not capable of designing and fabricating them yourself, perhaps you need a different pastime.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
DGreen,<!----><!----><!---->
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You obviously didn’t understand my posting based on your comments. The posting I made was in regard to the poor quality blade guards which are standard on saws currently on the market today. End of story. <!----><!---->
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If you choose to operate a saw without a blade guard, then you do so at your own peril. I believe someone does not have the right to blame a company because “YOU”, the operator, chose to remove the safety device and were injured as a result. This is not about lawsuits; it’s about best practices being utilized. It’s about having a properly engineered riving knife/blade guard system as a standard feature on table saws. Period.<!----><!---->
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SawStop has developed a revolutionary braking system which is patented; and like the Volvo cars I referenced, they get their “pricing power” because of their safety features. However, imagine what a SawStop saw might cost if Jet unveiled a similar system yet priced the saws at 1/2 the price? This is American and competition through innovation is a win-win for the consumer. Better products at a lower cost. If we had expected innovation and higher standards from our vendors in the past then we would have what European saws have had standard for many years, a quality riving knife/blade guard system. Yet, North American companies have not been able to engineer such a simple low tech safety device on all saws sold today and when I question why they haven’t- you tell me to “quit whining”? Well sir, I hope for all of our sake that people don’t take your advice.<!----><!---->
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Mike<!----><!---->
Edited 1/26/2008 2:56 am ET by rxmpo
RE Sawstop, they also get a measure of pricing power from the fact that they have built a top quality table saw with features that go beyond their patented brake system. If the company were to be totally transparent about the subject I bet we would learn that just putting the brake on a delta/jet class TS was determined to give them little competitive differentiation and/or pricing premium. The fact that they designed such a robust TS indicates that they are targeting a professional market segment, which is confirmed when you talk to the distributors who are selling them.BTW, the Volvo reference is perception at best but one that doesn't result in actual pricing premium in their market segments. The various public and private agencies that track these matters (Consumer Reports, DOT, IIHS, HLDI) all give non-Volvo cars, Acura/Honda has been the most consistent for the last 3 years, top safety ratings and the statistics on pricing reveal that Volvo is priced competitively with their segment competitors, to the dollar.My point in writing this is not to argue with you about the merits of safety features on machines or our favorite cars (BTW, I once had a Volvo XC70 and something was always going wrong with it), but to point out a couple of interesting observations about markets gleaned from years of studying such matters. Premium pricing is achieved not simply through the proprietary application of some feature but through the marketplace responding to competitor's absence of specific features. In other words actual value is achieved first through perceived value. Right now in the automotive market premium pricing is achieved through green technology as opposed to simply better mileage because a few vendors, Toyota in particular. However, Mercedes has had 2 record years despite having nothing in the way of hybrids (they do have Bluetec diesel and that is getting a significant price premium in CA), which is evidence that the market segment Mercedes is in does not respond to the green message the way that Toyota's market does, even though Lexus does have a hybrid competitor to the E class.In the tool market I think we are approaching a tipping point that has as much to do with the lack of innovation among the consolidated group of vendors as it does with truly innovative developments like the SawStop. The market is no longer Ford vs. Chevy, or in this case Delta vs. Jet vs. Powermatic because for all practical purposes those are identical product lines, as are Grizzly and the raft of lesser competitors. This will always be the meat-and-potatoes of the tool market but there is a greater degree of segmentation that is evident in the success the European vendors are having (despite the punitive Euro/$ exchange rate), and low cost but high quality manufacturing enabling a new generation of companies like SawStop to emerge.I'm with you in hoping that safety features drive a new generation of purchases, but am pragmatic and believe that safety features combined with well designed and high quality products will ultimately be the winning combination.
...we as consumers should demand that these obvious safety issues, which have been debated long before I started woodworking, be addressed...NOW!!!Fine. Demand away. The fact of the matter is, the 'safety improvements' you want implemented come with a significant cost to the consumer. The reason they aren't there now, is because of that cost. If you want a safer table saw, buy a Saw Stop. YOU will get the level of safety YOU deem necessary for YOU. Given your philosophy, I assume you already own one. Right?I've been running very dangerous machinery for more than 30 years without major incident. As I said before..luck? Not for a second. Respect for the machinery, training and education of proper safety measures and shop procedures are the reason I still have my appendages. You state that in one year there were 38,000 visits to the emergency room from table saw accidents. That's a big number. While I don't like to see ANYONE get hurt, lets put that number in perspective. As of 2007 the estimated population of the US was 300 million people. If ONE percent of that population owned and used a table saw, that would be 3 million table saws in the US. Given the popularity of woodworking, and the number of people working in the trades, that seems like a very low number, but for the sake of argument we'll go with it. Now that 38,000 visits works out to about 1.2 percent of all table saw owners/operators. I don't want to trivialize 38,000 injuries, but statistically speaking, 1.2 percent is a pretty small number. Of the people that do, what percentage of that number do you think that the fault lies with the operator? Probably the vast majority, otherwise manufacturers would be tied up in court in our litigation crazy society. Should we hold the manufacturers liable for improper usage of the machinery they produce? I would hope not. Certainly not in my opinion. I don't require my machinery to be idiot proof for me to use it safely. If you do and are WILLING TO PAY FOR IT, that's fine. But don't expect me to be supportive of that philosophy or to demand that manufacturers implement exorbitant safety devices which come at great cost to the consumer. Costs I'm not willing to bear. IMO, the machines available today are very well made. With proper education and training, they are perfectly safe to use. In fact, I can say with a great degree of confidence, that working with all the power tools in my shop is much safer for me, than my daily commute to work at my office will ever be. THAT is a risk I wish I could mitigate.Regards...Jeff
Edited 1/25/2008 5:22 am by jeff100
I don't buy your extrapolation- it's more creative than quantitative, and not convincing.I also sense a certain arrogance is your post- you haven't been injured, and that's because you are wise and careful. Those that have been injured- well they are either foolish or careless. It's just one small step to "they had it coming". I hope that you will not have the opportunity to repent of your own good opinion of yourself.My own view is that the number one safety feature in any shop is the woodworker himself. Even he or she is careless or too tired or not safety conscious, then no tool or safety feature will be able to prevent an accident.Having said that, none of us (yourself perhaps excepted) is perfect. Safety equipment lowers the probability of accidents- the better designed and the more thoughtfully implemented, the lower the chance of an accident when human error does occur or fate intervenes. How many and at what cost these features should entail, is the subject of debate. The strict libertarian view is that none of this should be mandated. The commonweal view is that nearly all should be required. I think there is a balance to be sought here, but having seen and cared for a number of these type of traumatic injuries, and considering the costs to the common purse for insurance, workman's comp and disability, I tend to favor their implementation. YMMV.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Agreed. That is all I've been trying to say. I didn't like playing the numbers game either, but neither could I let someone throw a number like that out for shock value, and not give it some context to evaluate it in.
If I've come off as arrogant, then I've done a poor job of explaining. I especially don't believe that people who get hurt have been hurt because they are careless or foolish. I don't believe that for a second. There is a certain amount of risk involved in using this equipment. A lot of variables come into play. We do everything we can to minimize the risk and account for all the variables, but as you and I both know, sometimes that isn't enough and people do get hurt through no fault of their own, and that is unfortunate. As they say, life happens, and yes, even to me.
I find an attitude with some people who seem to beleive that manufacturers could do more to make their equipment safer yet they choose not to because of profits or indifference. That is nonsense for the vast majority of manufacturers. No manufacturer wants to see anyone become hurt with their equipment to generate profits. I am certain that if people were being hurt becuase of the callous indifference of the manufacturers to add more safety features, making the manufacturers culpable in these injuries, it would not be long before they were litigated out of business in this country. The sad and uncomfortable truth is most are hurt through their own negligence, myself included. I have had my share of close calls. Like most, it's because I was tired, in a hurry, cutting corners, not taking the time to be safe, etc. etc.. I guess I should admit I was wrong in my other post, I am embarrassed to admit luck HAS played a part in my life. Shame on me for suggesting otherwise.
"I don't require my machinery to be idiot proof for me to use it safely. If you do and are WILLING TO PAY FOR IT, that's fine. But don't expect me to be supportive of that philosophy or to demand that manufacturers implement exorbitant safety devices which come at great cost to the consumer. Costs I'm not willing to bear. IMO, the machines available today are very well made. With proper education and training, they are perfectly safe to use. In fact, I can say with a great degree of confidence, that working with all the power tools in my shop is much safer for me, than my daily commute to work at my office will ever be. THAT is a risk I wish I could mitigate."You or your employer (which eventually get passed on to all of us) are already paying the costs of machinery without adequate safety mechanisms, through higher health insurance premiums, higher prices of goods and services due to employee time lost from work, higher workmans comp insurance, etc. Driving your car to work may be less safe than woodworking but it has definitely been made safer over the years because of action that has been mandated like safety belts, double wall fuel tanks, airbags, etc.
Given that the adequate safety mechanism had been deliberately defeated in this case, what adequate safety mechanism are you advocating be mandated here? A government monitor in every shop? Rubber blades? Even the Saw Stop can be defeated by using the bypass switch.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Don,
You're right to suggest that the human saw-operator is the final safety mechanism. It is surely irresponsible, not to say stupid, to operate a machine containing a sharp blade with 3 or 4 horses behind it when not competant or fit to do so. This is especially the case in a country (yours) where cutting off your finger will cost thousands of dollars in medical bills. :-)
In Britain we have what is often called the nanny state. Them legislators insist that makers of machines take account of general human stupidity and make the machines as safe as they can be in light of current technology and knowledge. Thus all TS must have proper guards, riving knives, blade brakes and similar. Even so, one may still remove a finger during a bout of utter stupidity (I have such a bout at least once a month, but so far not whilst in the shed).
Yes, even I, a fine well-educated chap of impecable character, can do a stupid thing from time to time. This being so, I prefer them dangerous machines to be idiot-proof, as far as they can be. After all, I don't want to be costing the taxpayer money by having to call on the National Health Service to sew my finger back on. :-)
So, on the day the nannies in parliament legislate for a saw-stop mechanism on all European TS, I will rush out to buy one. Of course, I may wait a little while until the price drops.... Hopefully the finger-removal gremlin will not take advantage of my tightwadiness during the interim.
Lataxe, finger-lover (I uses them for this, that and also the other).
Sir Lataxe,What is the average cost of a European made tablesaw? In addition to the plethora of comments (right or wrong) I have already made on this subject, it is my observation that we yanks get what we are typically willing to pay for...An atypical red neck sophisticate...Jeff
I know I'm not Lataxe jeff, but I'll throw in a few prices anyway.
Just about the cheapest bench saw in the Axminster catalogue is the Perform CCTS 10 at £115.15 inc VAt. That's about US230. It's a low end tool, and probably okay for the odd job every now and then. You could probably burn the motor out with a morning's work of continuous ripping of 1" thick pine.
In the middle range, towards the upper end aimed at the amateur they sell a Jet Super Saw, model no JTS-250 CS for £1286.47 Inc VAT. Probably passably good with a 2.2 KW motor. I think 2.2KW is supposed to be about 3 hp, if roughly 750 watts = 1 horsepower. I'm not sure the sum is that simple, but I'm no spark.
At the top end they offer a range of Martin saws. I shan't even mention price, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Er I definitely am not Jeff and do beg leave to tell you that for a man who knows how many cubic meters = 1000 board feet to three places of decimals you are cuffing it on the 750 Watts being 1 Horse. It is in fact 746.0 Watts to one Horse. Just thought I'd clear that up.Philip Marcou
Thank you philip. I knew it was 700 and something, and I knew there was a 4 and a 6 in the mix, but couldn't recall in which order, eg, 746 or 764, so I just said 750 as i knew it wasn't far out.
Still, my rough and ready calculations were out. Jeff thinks 2.2 KW input equals about 1.75 HP and Steve suggests 2.1 HP. I hadn't accounted for the power loss between the input and output. One of them is likely to be fairly close to right, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
2.2KW input 1.6KW output. 1.75HP I believe.
Here are pictures of the UK version and the US version.
The price on the UK version in dollars is $2554.54 , the price on the US version is $1149.00.
------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
"2.2KW input 1.6KW output. 1.75HP I believe."
1.6 kW = 2.1 HP
A good rule of thumb is that 1 kW of input power translates to about 1 HP of output power (for induction motors).
-Steve
I should have said I believe they call it a 1.75 HP saw as I was going by their advertising copy and did not calculate it myself.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Jeff,
As Don has already pointed out, when comparing US and UK prices for similar things, one must take account of the "rip-off Britain" syndrome. For some reason, we tend to have to pay more for the same thing (on top of that 17.5% sales tax known as Value Added Tax - as fine a euphemism that I ever heard) than do you chaps over there; or even in mainland Europe. Britain is full of middlemen with a 25% markup contract in their pocket.
So, were Scheppach, the makers of the saw I own, to sell in the US they might sell for cheaper than this mere $2800 for a 10 inch saw having a sliding table/carriage to the left of the blade and a rip capacity of around 1 metre to the right of the blade:
http://www.dm-tools.co.uk/product.php/section//sn/SCHTS2500DEAL2
I have this saw with a 2 metre sliding carriage, so it can cut sheets better. (No motorbike thang though - what a queer inducement). It's very well made and, although a pig to set up, stays set up forever. I've had mine for three years now and never needed to adjust anything after that first setup. It is very precise and a joy to use.
I added some Veritas hold downs (from their router table) to the T-track in the TS fence-top. This, with the blade-following riving knife, proper guard and motor brake all add to the safety. However, I would certainly pay another £200 or so for a saw stop mechanism on it.
All TS in Europe follow this model, with even the Jets and other US style saws having to conform. When the playing field is flat and safety mechs ubiquitous, they hardly affect the cost. They are just part of the overall design. The price differentials of various TS are on capacity, power, build quality and so forth. Of course, Jet and Dewalt do add a markup to their safety-conformant saws - but perhaps this is because they have not designed those features in from the start.
Of course, even the Scheppach saw can cut off your parts, should you be silly enough to use it drunk, tired or in a mood. Still, it all lessens the chance of our voluble human nature leading us to a big disaster.
A final point: I doubt if the capitalist men of Europe would be any more inclined than those of the US to fit safety devices, were it not for legislation forcing their greedy hands. Now and then a safety device becomes successful via market forces (eg Volvo example) but usually not.
It is a brave capitalist that will apply cares about the welfare of customers over and above the bottom line demanded by greedy shareholders and their robotic bean counter representatives on the board. Volvo cars are high end, though; well-off customers are willing to pay for Good Things such as safety and an extra cup holder. It allows them to boast to their peers. :-)
Lataxe, enjoying a cuddle or two from nanny.
Literary Lataxe,
even the Jets and other US style saws having to conform
Sir, am I to assume that they also are/were required to equip their saws with riving knives? If so, how long has this rule been in place?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Having just purchased a SawStop, and having just (yesterday) hauled it down to the basement with one capable assistant, I can attest that it is a very robust saw indeed. Now that I own this saw, I have to be extra (and I mean EXTRA) careful with everything else. How silly would I feel if I, as the owner of a SawStop, cut my finger off with my bandsaw? Or, worse yet with my Lion Miter Trimmer? The point it, there is some very dangerous stuff in our shops ready to strike at a careless moment. SawStop is a great invention, and worth it to me, but if it gives us a false sense of security, or contributes to general carelessness in the shop, it has set safety back, not forward. I would love to see the envelope pushed on safety devices, but stop short of legislation. The BEST safety device is awareness. I cringe remembering some of the things I have done in the shop, like resawing on the tablesaw. Now, I try to pause before anything even questionable, and reflect on what could go wrong. If I don't like the odds, I don't do it.
Amen! The SawStop brake cannot stop a kickback, and having sported a bruised tummy from one last year, that alone would keep my vigilance at a high level. That, and having read several reports over the years from people who have experienced even worse kickback than I. It is truly frightening how much force an even small piece of wood can pack when it's launched by a table saw blade!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
""I don't want to be costing the taxpayer money by having to call on the National Health Service to sew my finger back on. :-) ""
So strange to read that. We, here in the "New World" cannot seem to get out s--- together enough to have that option. Sad, sad, sad. But, that is for another time in the Cafe' perhaps.
Sorry to hijack. Carry on, please....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Sir Lataxe;
I see in the Telegraph today that your doctors are advocating not treating the elderly and those whom they deem to have contributed to their infirmity, better not let them see you with those unsafed chisels and adzes!
While mulling the OP's injury and wondering if a Saw Stop (assuming it was not bypassed) would have lessened the injury. Assuming again that the offcut he was clearing had passed the leading edge of the blade and further assuming he was not reaching over but rather to the side and rear of the blade, one has to wonder if the injury might not have been more severe given that the blade travels aft for a distance before dropping.
Not that it makes it a less useful saftey device, but it's got me wondering about rear of the blade injuries. Wonder what would happen if you shoved the hot dog in from the rear?
Very much enjoyed your blog and hope to see more of your writings in the future. Please hurry before the nannys take away your keyboard. Carpal tunnel danger you know!
Stay safe and watch them ninny...er nannys!------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Don,
You mention that: "I see in the Telegraph today that your doctors are advocating not treating the elderly and those whom they deem to have contributed to their infirmity, better not let them see you with those unsafed chisels and adzes"!
Yes, them bean-counters have got into the NHS and are counting away like mad. Of course, being currently healthy and in one piece, I can only agree that them mad folk that smokes, eats MacFud and never goes out on their bicycle should all be left to die in a ditch, as it will save tuppence on my income tax. That'll teach 'em!
Well, perhaps I will be more forgiving and go with the policy that says "one strike and you're out". So, when an acquaintance who has had to have his leg off because of a smoking-induced thrombosis refuses to give up his filthy habit, I would tend to say to his quack, "Cease your care and let the rotter rot"! Of course his plaintive cries, as the rotting proceeded, would make me change my mind as I am a softy. :-)
As to the adzes and othe sharp thangs, I have a rule: never put any bodypart, especially the other hand, in the path of the blade-pushing force. What are vises for, after all? Still, when I break the rule in a fit of pique at the whole rule-thang, I will tell myself off and appear shamefaced down at the hospital. Perhaps I should dye my grey hair, though? (I will then look about 25).
****
As to the sawstop perhaps having an achilles heel - perhaps we can apply a simulacrum of the scientific method? The theory is that the sawstop mechanism prevents amputations. The data so far all agrees. But as soon as there is one exception (ie your scenario comes true for some luckless soul) the theory and the sawstop mech must be revised. Meanwhile, it seems a good working theory and technology.
Lataxe, off to get his hair coloured and to price a youth-giving face-lift (might be able to get one on the NHS).
Sir Lataxe;
I doubt it would rise to the level of an Achilles heel, the brake would still have stopped the blade and I don't think there would be an amputation. Just kind of a morbid curiousity as to whether the injury from the rear of the blade would be worse than one from the front.
------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Don,
Where can I get one o' them Nanny Hals? I am anxious to replace the all too human politicos with a computer, which will be extremely logical as I will program the bugger to my liking.
Of course, I will keep some jump-leads handy, just in case. If only we could short circuit members of parliament when they go awry.
Lataxe, cherished by The State.
New shed mugs!
------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
"one has to wonder if the injury might not have been more severe given that the blade travels aft for a distance before dropping."No it doesn't.Look at the slow motion video.
http://www.sawstop.com/
Edited 1/29/2008 7:57 am ET by KRiley
"...given that the blade travels aft for a distance before dropping."
Looking at the videos, it's possible that the axis of the blade moves rearwards very slightly, but this happens at the same time that the blade is dropping down, so the net motion is still such that all exposed portions of the blade move away from any objects above the table.
-Steve
Steve,
That slight rearward motion is the inertia of the stopping motor/saw assembly being lifted off the pall. That releases the whole assembly to drop.
You're absolutely right that the blade is moving away from you no matter where your finger is. To reset the pall you just crank the wheel down until "click".
Then the blade raise and lower crank is reengaged.
At that point you pull the blade and cartridge out as a unit.
If your finger is behind the blade and there is rearward motion of the blade, how is there movement away from your finger in the instant before the drop?
------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Edited 1/29/2008 3:20 pm by dgreen
Did you bother to look at the slow motion video????Go here,http://sawstop.com/, it's the first video listed under videos on the home page. It looks to have been shot at 1000/FPS.
Note the movement back is barely a millimeter or two.
The blade comes to a stop in about 3 teeth.Even in the regular speed video you can see how fast the saw drops below the table.
Your hand behind the blade isn't going to cause anymore damage then in front.
In front you get a knick.
Unless you want to deny those videos and the photo testimonials on their page are real.
"If your finger is behind the blade and there is rearward motion of the blade, how is there movement away from your finger in the instant before the drop?"
There is no significant* rearward motion before the blade starts moving down. Once it starts moving down, the angle of the tangent to the circumference of the blade at the table is such that the blade effectively moves away from both front and rear contact, even though the axis of the blade continues to move slightly further to the rear.
-Steve
*"Significant" being more than about 1 mm.
I e-mailed SawStop and asked them the following question: Is an injury from contact at the rear of the blade at table level more
severe that from the front of the blade due to the slight rearward
movement of the mechanism on actuation?The answer I received in less than 24 hours:Thank you for contacting SawStop. In response to your request, no, the
severity of the injury is relatively the same no matter where you
contact the blade. Please let us know if you have any questions. Thank
you!------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Like some of us have been saying.......
In a discussion yesterday I heard that part of the reason for the blade "down and back" movement is to absorb some of the energy from suddenly stopping the rotation. Without this movement there is a real risk of cracked castings.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Frosty,
When you look at the castings it looks like they are also designed to absorb the shock. The carrier is not like any other saw I've seen.Also the carrier doesn't pivot on a single point to raise and lower the blade. It rides on a shaft and goes straight up and down with the help of a gas spring.
As a result no matter what height the blade is when you pivot it for angle cuts the pivot point of the blade is always the plane of the table top.
Edited 1/30/2008 10:27 am ET by KRiley
Probably part of the explanation for the higher price.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
and Mike,
I believe it is our right to demand that manufacturers do more to help reduce those odds even further.
Both of you folks are right. I totally agree with the above statement; we must DEMAND and the manufacturers should not be scrambling around cause SawStop took the initiative that they have long avoided!
Shame on all of them. I think it's sad when too many companies are influenced by their beancounters.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Senco made a framing nailer that had a safety feature in it where the tool would lock out after three seconds and no longer fire. It was designed to help workers who carelessly kept their finger on the trigger while say, walking up a ladder and bumping the safety on their knee firing a shot directly into their knee cap. It was called ThinkTrac. They spent thousands of dollars promoting it and it even won a couple of industry safety awards but the market never picked up on it and eventually the tool was discontinued.
http://www.power2xs.com/store.php?tnfr_fp600e.shtml
"Follow the rules, and you will be fine." Jeff, I agree that safe working habits are essential for the power-tooled woodworker, but the catch is, we're human. We make mistakes, have split-second lapses of attention (our minds being the complicated entities they are), we may err in our judgment as to a the safety of a particular operation, regardless of how much we've read about safe technique. The saws safety equipment is there to provide a last line of defense should we make a mistake, and the industry has a responsibility to provide useable and effective safety devices. That transaltes, IMHO, to riving knifes and quick-release splitters on table saws.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Why is it, it's accepted that we are human and mistake prone, yet its acceptable we haul a manufacturer into court and sue if they make a mistake?
Why do we expect others to cover for us, when we are not willing to take responsibility for our own actions?
Is it good thing to have safety features? Sure. Is it a good thing that every possible risk is to be addressed, and mandated to eliminate our responsibility and at any cost? IMO, no.
If you think we should demand riving knives and quick release splitters on tablesaws....sign me up. THAT is something I can agree with 100 percent....and (here comes the point)...it's something I would be willing to pay for!
BTW...I make zero clearance inserts from baltic birch for my tablesaw blades and I build in a splitter permanently into the insert. If I can't use the splitter for some reason, I change out the insert and put the factory insert back in. Pretty quick release, eh?....:>)
"I make zero clearance inserts from baltic birch for my tablesaw blades and I build in a splitter permanently into the insert." That's a great option, and ohhhhh so easy! If I had to give my Merlin, that's how I'd adjust.
What gripes me about the whole situation with table saws for the last oh-so-many years is the fact that the riving knife design has been out there and working in Europe for a very long time, and yet Jet/Powermatic, Delta, General, etc., etc., etc., have been foisting these stupid blade guard/splitter assemblies on us until they are forced to do something different. Given the fact that the riving knife will become mandatory soon (2009, right?), I'm really suspicious that the recent new designs (PM2000) are more a response to government mandate than to the customer base pressure.
Although I would certainly sue a company who knowingly made a faulty product that was dangerous to use (let's say the blade flies off the table saw, hits me in the head), I don't believe in suing simply because you can. Case in point: I worked for a woman decades ago who had her car run into by a bicyclist who was on a 10-speed, going flat-out, head down, running a red light. Lots of witnesses. He slammed headfirst into her car, no helmet. Serious brain damage. The catch? He was an anesthesiologist a local hospital and on the faculty at the med school. Sue? You bet, sue he did. Sued her. Sued the bicycle company. Sued the company that made his clothes, I think (may be exaggerating there). Didn't make any difference that he had clearly caused his own injury, he needed to replace his lifetime income, so off he went into the court system. Of course, the auto insurance company settled to the max of her policy, cheaper than fighting it. My opinion is, if you're going to be that stupid, carry a $5,000,000 long-term disability policy (if you can get one, LOL).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG, I appreciate your frustration. As a fellow consumer, I have the same frustration. I've spent my life working in aerospace manufacturing and had written another long post detailing the difficulties of implementing a manufacturing change to a product in an existing production line, but in the end I deleted it. People don't really care what it takes anyway. They want what they want, and most want it at a price that is a cheap as it can be. For companies new to the business like Steel City, who do not have an existing investment in producing a product, it is much easier to introduce enhancements like riving knives in a new product line. It does not cost them anything extra to do so. For a company like Jet or Delta who has a capital investment in the product as it stands now, it's not so easy. It takes additional investment of capital, all the while trying to keep their product priced within the pricing structure they have established and have to compete in. That makes it difficult to recover that additional investment of capital required to make the change. That's business I suppose. We will eventually see riving knives, but don't hold your breath waiting for them on legacy products. In the interim, I'll continue to use my custom made splitters!
"...don't hold your breath waiting for them [riving knives] on legacy products." Based on comments by John White when this subject has arisen, I don't think it's at all within the realm of possibility.
I guess it's more difficult to introduce new features in tools than in cars, because people don't upgrade their tools and compete so much in a "keep up with the Jonses" fashion with their tools, but my understanding is that one or two of USA's car companies have learned the hard way you can't rest on your laurels and not put money into real change in cars or you'll be overtaken by the competition. I believe we're seeing that happen to WMH, General and Delta as they are being challenged by Steel City. The are (finally) responding by making changes in their tools.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have two points that I would like to point out:
1. When manufacturers provide a blade crappy guard/splitter that in reality turns out to be more dangerous to use than it is to use the tablesaw without it, I have a problem with that. Also, there are several third party vendors that provide good working alternatives then I translate that into complacency on the part of the manufacturer. How is it that these third parties can do it and the manufactureres can't or won't until the are forced to. Capital investment? Right!
Good grief, Delta, et al, have been making their saws for how long now? Give me a break.
2. With the current DIY market trend there are a lot more folks operating woodworking machinery than there ever has been before. Many more folks are doing it themselves and I believe this is another reason we're seeing innovations come to market. Take a look at how much has been accomplished in safety/dust collection in just the past 5 years!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Which after market blade guard have you purchased and installed on your table saw? Can you describe how or why it performs better than the factory guide. I may want to upgrade my saw. Thanks. Jeff
FWIW, I use the Brett Guard (original mount version).
http://www.htcproductsinc.com/tsa.html
I highly recommend it. Happy to answer any questions about it's use.
Hi jeff,
I don't have a third party solution, made my own. The guard I'm building will be very similar to the one Sarge built and will be mounted to a crossbeam in the celing. I use a crosscut sled with a lexan guard that is a strip that runs from front to the back of the sled.
For a splitter I use a 7/64" x 2" bolt that gets threaded into a locking nut that is mounted under the shop made zero clearance insert plate. The bolt is screwed up thru the bottom so the head is under the plate.
Kinda crude but works and I don't have to remove the splitter when using the crosscut sled.
Regards.Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Jeff, there's a good DIY design here on the internet. I'm sure Sarge's is good to ;-) just referencing another one. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks FG. That happens to be the guard I plan to build and install when I get finished with my DC ducting project. Rather than fabricate the blade guard hood from lexan sheet stock, I am going to buy the replacement blade guard hood from Penn State Industries, they want $25.00 for the guard with integrated DC port, how can you go wrong. All that's left is to fab the ceiling mount and assorted levers. Looking forward to it. No more fine sawdust in my eyes.Regarding the debate about complacency of the mfgs with the cheap factory guards. I was looking at some old fashioned heavy steel tools made by Northfield Foundry & Machine. Their smallest table saw, the #4 5 HP model sells for just under $13,000.00 and the standard guard is a lexan guard that's not much different than what's on my grizzly. To their credit, they also offer a Brett guard and a Surty guard as options. No riving knife that I can see. For $13K, you'd think you'd get one, and ALL THREE BLADE GUARDS to boot. Go figure. So much for my argument of we get what we pay for....Anyway, thanks for the link to the DC article...Jeff
"So much for my argument of we get what we pay for...." Too funny!
"Riving knife? We don' need no stinkin' riving knife!"forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Complacency -- that's the word I was looking for! Yep, I don't swallow the "they can't afford to make it better" argument.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I grew up with a sawmill in my yard.. No guards on a 54 inch head saw...
My brother lost half his left thumb reaching across the "invisible" part of a spinning blade.. They might have been able to reattach it if it hadnt been stuck to the bottom of my shoe while we looked all over the floor for it...OOPS... He did complain that it hurt while I was stepping on it... That should have been a clue to where it was hiding
I cut my left thumb off when a circular saw kicked back.. I made sure not to step on it so they did reattach it....
One blade had a guard...one didnt... Lesson here??? Treat EVERY spinning blade like it is a COBRA ready to strike... EXPECT to get bitten if you get too close and you wont get too close...
You'll get no argument from me! Heck, I won't even call you arrogant!Have a safe one...
Sorry to hear about the accident, heal fast.I’ve had 2 accidents on the table saw in 17 years. One was one I could deal with out of the medicine cabinet. The second was a bit more serious. I ran the tips of the first two fingers of my left had into the blade to the bone. The doc the fixed me up did a great job but I may never play guitar again.
At that point my wife said “you’re buying a Sawstop”.
Lucky for me I then changed jobs and sold a bunch of leave back to my company and bought the saw with that money.I know the Sawstop has pretty much been beaten to death here (and elsewhere). The debate runs the gambit from “Evil nanny state” to “Greatest advance in power tools in a century”.
After my fingertip accident all debate ended with “what price you hand?”
Even without the safety features in is a very fine table saw with some excellent features.
As stated the safety system is on and functioning until the blade comes to a complete stop. You can’t turn the saw back on until it comes to a stop as well.
You can defeat the safety system if you’re going to cut conductive material and it resets to the safe mode as soon as you shut off the saw. The computer and memory for the system is all contained in the cartridge. If you have an activation you send the cartridge back to Sawstop so the can analyze the accident.Enough of the Sawstop hyping, ever woodworker, hobbyist or professional, will have to decide for themselves if they want to invest in one.
If you replace the word accident with preventable injury it can change your view of life's little perils.Accident seems to be defined as anything that happens by chance without an apparent cause, unforseen, unintentional, random.
Accidents do not have fault, therefore are acceptable. Preventable injuries occur when reasonable people choose freely to place their limbs, bodies, lives at risk.
The fault for an injury lies solely with the person or persons who accepted the risk and the consequences. Taking responsibility is not something we as a society do well. I am proud to say that I have never suffered an accident, but stupidly, I have been the prime architect of some preventable injuries to my body. No one's fault but mine and mine alone.When go to my shop I tell myself each time that if I am not careful, I could cut off a part of my body. Sometimes I turn off the light and do something else.Don
Norman,
Sorry to hear of your accident- I'm glad you were able to find a good hand surgeon- that can make a huge difference.
I think the SawStop issues have been vetted thoroughly, but I would offer a few other observations:
1. Your comment about working tired is right on. At best you will do poor work, and at worst- well you know what can happen at worst. In this I include both hand and power tools- a sharp chisel can do a real job on human flesh.
2. A corollary: never do something when you are in a rush, even if you are rested.
3. I personally think most of the factory supplied guards are junk- they tend to impair visibility, worsen dust collection, and bind stock- which makes ripping even more dangerous. They are more legal due diligence than safety based. Having said that, I favor replacing them with better third party or shop-made versions rather than disabling them.
I hope that you recover quickly,
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 1/24/2008 9:40 pm ET by Glaucon
Very sorry to hear you had an accident, but glad it wasn't any worse!! Someone mentioned the Brett Guard. An overhead blade guard and a quick-release splitter are great modifications to a table saw set up, as they are more likely to be put back into service for "just one cut" after they've been removed for a valid reason.
Last summer I severely cut my index finger while pruning a tree with a handsaw. I was using one of those nasty Japanese pruning saws with teeth that look like they were extracted from a small shark and looked away for a second while to my misfortune the saw cut through the branch and sailed into my finger. It was nasty, 18 stitches.
The nerves in your fingers run up the sides so while I managed to recover my finger from the first knuckle out to the tip, I severed the nerves and now have only numbness at the tip of my finger.
People wrongly assume that it's power tools and machines that can cause serious bodily injury, but I'm here to tell you that safety needs to be applied whenever you are around anything sharp. Always pay attention to what you are doing, consider the path of the tool as it relates to your body, and take your time.
Norman,
Thanks for the post. It's a great reminder to all of us. Thank God there was a compentent hand surgeon nearby. I hope you get well quickly, and return to wood working with confidence.
My rule is no machines are used after 6:00 p.m., other than a shop-vac to clean up. This destroys any chance of wood working during the week, yet it forces me to do all of the small stuff that I'm putting off.
Dorsett
"...and had removed the blade guard..."
Those little crappy plastic guards prevent a whole lot of accidents when they're left in place. I'm relatively sure that over 90% of tablesaw accidents are on equipment in which the guard or guard/splitter assembly has been removed. The remaining percentage would almost all have been covered by the use of a push stick and keeping the blade projection above the stock at the right height. Don't crank the blade up as high as it will go to rip or crosscut 3/4" stock.
Obviously, when factoring in the trip to the hospital and your convalescence, you'd have been better off taking the time to put the guard back on the saw. But you know that now.
Hope you get to feeling better. Put the guard on and leave it alone.
Thanks, all, for your comments.I do want to emphasize one point: had the blade guard been in place, I would not have been able to touch the blade. My saw is the GI hybrid, and, yes, the stock blade guard is inconvenient to keep taking on and off, especially as I have to realign the splitter with the blade every time. As I said, one of my errors was to get lazy about the guard. I just finished a project that required a lot of cuts requiring the use of a jig, which would have been impossible to do with the stock guard installed. All that work went fine, and as a result, I got just a tad more blasé about the guard. Big mistake.The crosscut sled I'm building will now have a design modification: I will dado in grooves for a homemade plexiglass blade guard in it.Norman
Edited 1/25/2008 8:31 am ET by nboucher
Very sorry to hear. Gives me chills but I want to thank you for posting. A not so little wake up call.
I think most of us non Pro types consider ourselves to be safety aware. Very much like if you ask just about anyone if they are good.safe driver, they will usually say yes. It's the "other" guy with all the issues. I think most of us have driving issues right? Just stay out of my way Maam and everything will be just fine....;)
I don't, however, agree that the hobbiest VS pro point you raised is accurate. Being pretty new myself ( about 8 years or so) some of the tools I use give me the willies when I think of the potential for ripping appendages off. I think someone with more experience tends to relax a bit more and that's just plain dangerous. Pros, I think, do more production work and that has been said to be biggest offender for accidents. Again, they do one piece after another and may, for a split second or so, lapse into a daydream....ZIP.
Marc Adams just did a series on shop/machine safety in PWW (I think it was PWW) and it was EXCELLENT. I highly recommend, not only reading it, but posting each article (done per machine) at the tool station.
Good luck my friend and a speedy recovery. Get back on that horse!
Brian
Ouch. Sorry to hear about your incident, and glad that the good hand surgeon was able to address it to the extent (s)he did.
This reminds me of something a safety expert once told me, an aviation expert in that case. "It takes multiple simultaneous mistakes for bad things to happen". You're human and you're not gonna be perfect 100% of the time, no matter the time of day. But working late increases the frequency of those "imperfections". And not using the guard removes the line of defense that's supposed to protect you when those "imperfections" inevitably occur.
Thanks very much for posting.
Great to hear you are ok, and thanks for sharing. I picked up on one thing you said "last thing of the day". I to once had a nasty mishap with a kickback when working too long and being tired. Hope you are back at it soon !!
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Not to say that blade guards and other safety devices don't make a saw safer, but I believe that complacency (or stupidity) is the reason most accidents happen. All my accidents on the tablesaw involve kickback. Whenever I rip, I make sure that I can step out of the way should something go wrong. I never allow my hands close to a spinning blade and leave offcuts alone until the blade stops turning. When I work in the shop, I am focused on the task at hand. I leave everything else at the door - work, family, etc.
This thread reminds me of this woodworking accident database. You can share your own accident and learn from others'.
http://www.woodworking.org/AccidentSurvey/search.htmChris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
that is a common argument, and you won't find much disagreement with the notion that stupidity is the number one cause of accidents... a quick trip through youtube will confirm that. But if the logic is extended to suggest that additional safety features contributes to complacency, then there would be a statistical basis for studying the thesis that safety measures on tools and machinery increases accidents. This, of course, is not the case.Safety features are like legal contracts, their purpose is primarily to serve as a backstop when things go bad. Your advice is sound, I follow it myself, but I'm still a fan of decreasing risk through appropriate safety features on machines and power tools. Finally, as my own accident proved, focus and attention are the first safety rule, everything else is just extra.
I guess it does sound silly - having safety features resulting in more accidents. I believe that most companies provide under-engineered safety equipment (blade guards, splitters, anti-kickback fingers) that are there, as you state, to fulfill legal contracts. I, like many, find these to be more of a hinderance than help. While they may lessen the chance of an accident, they also impede my ability to work (effeciently?) On my Delta contractor saw, I have never used the stock guard or splitter. I have bought an aftermarket splitter (MicroJig), but rarely use it. I sometimes use a featherboard to keep pressure against the fence but more often use my left hand or a scrap of wood (well before the blade). I almost always use push blocks or push sticks. A "panic switch" which I can use to turn off the tablesaw with my leg, knee, or foot is key.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
'focous and attention' implies that it is only the tool operator that is a factor, when the equipement and conditions also play a great role. As my Religious Studies prof. said, it's not 'either, or', it's 'both, and'. Being 'attentive' while the saw is running is probably the easiest thing to do. Running the saw off a GFI, using a splitter, sharp blade, push stick, and wearing safety glasses may be harder for some. Safety is not only an attitude, it is first and foremost a practice. It's what you did leading up to the game that matters. Brian
Sorry to hear about the accident.
Just something to add: I am also very mindful of safety around the saw. I once made contact with the blade because of impatience. I had just finished a cut and had powered down the saw. Usually I'd wait for the blade to stop before clearing the sawdust. But because my guard was on and the cyclone was running, I thought the blade had already stopped when I moved my hand over the table to clear the dust. Just like your accident, don't know how it happened, but I made contact with the blade. My blade guard is heavily modified and attached to a hose and is counterweighted, so it lifts easily. Fortunately I have the Sawstop, so the brake fired.
I think I noticed the saw not turning back on at the same time as the tinge in my finger. A bandaid, a new brake, and a blade later I was back in bidness. It was a stupid mistake on my part, of course. But with regard to the saw...thank God for engineers.
Check it out--my brother-in-law had an accident with a bench top saw ripping something...kick back...lacerated his hand badly. Since he is an orthopedic surgeon, he sewed himself back up...crazy...I think that'll be the last time he touches a saw.
So sorry to hear about your accident. I had a run-in with my jointer about 8 years ago and lost the tips of my index finger and thumb. Here's the compromise I reached with my wife: I could keep wood working if I switched to hand planes and kept signs posted around my shop telling me to "KEEP YOUR FINGERS OUT OF THE WAY." After about 6 years of making do with a jointer, three things happened: I got pretty good at jointing boards with a plane, I built a bunch of things with boards not quite flat, and my wife got over her hatred of jointers. So about 2 years ago I got myself a nice 6" jointer. I still turn to my trusty planes for edge jointing every now and then, but I'm cruising through a lot more board feet a lot faster and a lot flatter. And my signs are still posted, reminding me everywhere I look to keep my fingers out of the way.
All,
This has been a very lively discussion. Safety is all important to us as hobbiest or professionals because we have careers that can be greatly impacted by a serious injury. I have been a hobbiest for many years, but have always spent the extra buck for sensible safety equipment. When I purchased my Unisaw in the early nineties I also purchased Delta's Unigaurd. It included an add on splitter. I use the gaurd and splitter religiously. For some opperations this is not possible, but I am ever more mindful of the lack of the safety gaurd and splitter and think through my work plan carefully. Once I have completed the "risky" operation my next step is to replace the safety equipment. Replacing the equipment is easy, quick and straight forward. My point is, as other's implied, you can upgrade from the awkward OEM saftey gaurd either on or previously discarded from your saw to a superior aftermarket gaurd and splitter for a few bucks without replacing your saw as often as your automobile.
I agree that maufacturers are more intrested in features that are trendy like granite tops, built in laminated workbench table extentions and air assisted mobile bases to sell their saws. It seems silly safety remains an after thought by these manufaturers.
One last point. I have received more cuts from hand tools than from any of my machinery. Probably because hand tools are very portable, very sharp and do not have safety gaurds. I have learned the same respect for safety using these tools as for the powered tools.
Ray
Ray,
Very well put. Your last point about hand tools causing more injuries than power tools rings true. We all have respect for the blade spinning 3400 RPM, but we don't hold the same respect and are not as cautious as marking knives, splintery wood, or even sharp edges on a board. I once attended a seminar hosted by Mark Eaton of Freud, where he mentioned that most accidents involving a router occur when the router is off and the bit stopped.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I offer my sympathies. I can empathize - up to a point: I have a lot of cuts - one bandsaw incident required eight stitches last Friday, but all my digits.
It's not always easy, but I do try to remember what my dad taught me: Power tools are evil! Their purpose it to hurt people. Eternal vigilance is only solution.
Many of the frequent readers here will remember that on the day before Thanksgiving, 2007, I sliced the back of my left hand with a chisel. I severed four tendons and a sensory nerve. Two of the tendons went to my thumb and one each to the ring and middle finger. I had surgery by a very competent hand surgeon. I've been in occupational therapy for the last eight weeks and have gained back much of my previous ability. However, my left hand will always be stiff at the wrist and I won't have as much range of motion with my wrist or thumb. I can't touch my thumb to my pinky. It hurts when I use it and it hurts if I don't use it much. I won't know how much sensation (if any) I will get back until 6 months to a year from now.
During the first six weeks after surgery, I was not allowed to use the hand for much of anything, and for most of that time, I couldn't if I had wanted to. I couldn't button my pants or tie my shoes. I can't clap. I couldn't hold a plane in two hands. I wasn't allowed to drive for a couple of weeks. I wasn't allowed to carry anything in my left hand that weighs over one pound. I could not caress my wife with both hands (never realized how much I did that before). I can't do pushups. I can't do some Yoga poses. I had to hire someone to do my typing for me. I could go on.
I'm lucky to be doing as well as I am. I even went out and bought five new chisels for a new project I picked up during the Christmas break. I am shocked at how these genuinely sharp tools cut BTW.
So, add me to the column of those who note that hand tools must also be used with care and respect. Also keep me in the column of folks who love woodworking more every day. Can't do it without my hands and fingers though. So, if I can't work safely and deliberately with every single motion, its time to leave the shop.
Scotty
Scotty, I'm sorry to learn of your injury, but admire your dedication to your recovery and your determination to stay in the workshop. The irony is that my injury from a spinning saw blade is much less debilitating than yours with a simple chisel. The ring finger on my left hand is about 1/4 of an inch shorter than it was two weeks ago, but the function of my fingers hasn't been affected.While we're still talking about safety, one of the lessons my injury has taught me is do not relax once you've turned off the saw. I wonder in retrospect whether turning off the saw caused me to mentally ease up just enough for me to reach for the offcut too quickly. Even with the saw off, that blade spins for awhile with enough force to do some damage.Best wishes for your continued recovery, Scotty.Norman
You're right Norman. Often times the worst injury occurs after we "finish" and relax our attention.About 10 years ago, I was skiing in Utah. It was mid-afternoon, and I did a run down a fairly steep set of moguls- I was totally intense, focusing on my body and pole position and I cut right through them. As I cruised back to the lift, I felt pretty proud of myself and relaxed back on my aching calves. I still don't know what happened, but I found myself flat on my back with stars circling my head. I was dazed and then I heard a tiny voice..."Mister are you OK, do you need help?" I turned to see a tiny little girl (4 or 5 years old perhaps) looking intently at me with a concerned stare. My ego was rapidly resized.Now when I ski, or work or saw, I always try to tell myself that I'm not finished until the car is in the garage and the keys in my pocket.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Scotty,
I read your post today. Gave me the willies! Its shocking to me to imagine how bad an injury your mishap was. We sharpen our tools routinely to the scariest mirrored finished edge to make our work more effortless and precise, but one oops can really screw up your day. It makes me wonder how many woodworkers lost careers before the advances of modern medicine were effective in overcoming this type of injury.
Good luck to you,
Ray
I talked with some of my doctors about this very thing. 100 years ago, if a person had a very good doctor, they may have been able to save the person's life. They would have done that by amputating the hand after gangrene set in. In many cases, the infection would spread with disasterous consequences. I am very grateful for modern science and its applications in medicine.
Scotty
As per my e-mail - Brett Guard explanatory diagram:
Thanks, Sean. Great diagram and most helpful. You're right about crosscutting long boards at the TS. I usually go Neanderthal and use a hand saw, then trim them up on the TS if needed.Norman
I think since you were making a crosscut sled you had subconscious premonitions you were doing something wrong. I have started to cut wood on a power tool, turned on the machine, and just shut it back down because of a feeling something bad could happen. 90% of the time I figured out what could go wrong if I proceeded in the way I had orginally planned. Try to always be aware of the "inner voice" that warns you about danger. You were tired and the voice was cut off because of it. Fine Woodworking had a great article about things like this a few years back ,and I think it should be republished because it made me much more aware of what dangers to look for while using machines that could ruin the use of my hand forever.
Edited 1/30/2008 7:23 am ET by 9michael9
Wow, you got that same voice telling you, If it feels dangerous it probably is.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob that voice applies to everything if one is listening. If you can listen, you can be fairly error free... I think the Taoist's call it attention.
I feel your pain.
I tried to watch the kids in the yard and use the TS. Got hit with a kick back. 3 weeks to recover and still have a scar. New rules = No shop time when watching the kids. Get the sitter to come over if it’s that important.
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