Replies

1. 
   YesMaam27577 | Feb 21, 2009 06:00pm | #1

   For me, this depends largely on what you will be finishing. But.......

   A soft finish that protects, but does not build up....

   Sounds like one of the polymerizing oils to me. Boiled linseed oil. Or tung oil (the real stuff, not the junk from Lowe's). Either of these is very easy to apply correctly -- but they take many coats, each of which needs to dry at least overnight.

   Another option is a wipe-on varnish or polyurethane. In general, these are varnishes that have been thinned, and which have added boiled linseed oil. Almost as easy to apply correctly, not as many coats (still more than a brushed-on finish), still overnight drying.

   And finally, wax. Not as durable as the above, but quite nice-looking. Easy to get right, dry to the touch almost immediately, and usually one or two coats is plenty.

   Now as to my favorite? I thought that I liked wipe-on poly a lot, but I have recently tried various versions of lacquer. Wow! I might be an easy convert.

   Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
1. 
   wolfonce | Feb 21, 2009 06:09pm | #2

   Thanks so much. That is good insite

2. 
   Gretchen | Feb 21, 2009 08:36pm | #5

   Wipe on finishes do not require overnight drying. You can put on as many as 3 applications in a day, and they should NOT be allowed to completely cure/dry before the next application.Gretchen

2. 
   Rich14 | Feb 21, 2009 06:28pm | #3

   Wolfonce,

   Sorry,

   You are looking for magic. And it doesn't exist. Forget that you're asking about wood finish. You have essentially asked, "I want to apply a process which I want to look almost as an after thought. I want it to be unobtrusive in itself, but to be fool proof, yet bullet proof and also beautiful and I want to have my cake as well as eat it - I want it to be an easy, 1 or 2 step affair."

   Here's the best answer I can give you. The finish you are seeking in terms of appearance and performance is shellac or lacquer.

   Shellac and lacquer can be applied to give you any "look" that can be described, from a low luster, close-to-the wood "oiled" or waxed appearance all the way to a thick film, mirror luster, "piano" finish.

   Shellac and lacquer will provide lasting (real) protection vs a simple oil or oil-varnish treatment when used to "mimic" those kinds of finishes. It is all in the way you prepare the wood and apply the finish. There are no short cuts, but neither is it an interminable process. It's a straight-forward and simple series of logical steps.

   Even varnish, including water-based varnishes can be carefully applied and leveled and rubbed out to a beautiful, thin, soft, glowing surface, that looks like a newly-oiled surface, but which unlike oil or oil-varnish, retains its appearance and durability for a lifetime. I do it all the time (although I much prefer shellac or lacquer). The "secret" with varnish is to allow at LEAST 4 weeks curing time before final rubbing out.

   Apply, level, apply, level, repeat as many times as required, rub out, enjoy the result.

   Rich

   
   

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   Edited 2/21/2009 10:30 am ET by Rich14

1. 
   wolfonce | Feb 21, 2009 06:44pm | #4

   Thank you Rich that is great advice. I am not looking for magic. I have done serious rub out finishes but I am limited by time. I am just looking for alternative finishes and your advise on that is appreciated. Dave

1. 
   Rich14 | Feb 21, 2009 08:38pm | #6

   Dave,You can achieve a "serious" beautiful finish with shellac or lacquer faster than with any other finish.It's a myth, for instance, that because oil or oil/varnish is "easy" to apply, it is a quick way to get the job done.Wipe it on, let it sit for a while, wipe the surface dry. What could be easier? That's true. But to get even the most rudimentary protection for the wood, the process must be repeated over and over. It really does no good to repeat applications sooner than 48 hours. 72 is better. Apply additional coats, burnishing with steel wool as you go. Wait for the final coat (if not the entire gummy build-up) to be polymerized enough to present the piece as usable furniture and a minimum of 10 days to 2 weeks is necessary. And the stuff is still curing for weeks and months later.What is gained in easy application is given up in the real length of time for the finish to harden and in the actual protection it affords.An entire shellac or lacquer finishing schedule can be accomplished in 72 hours, if necessary. And the end result is a "real" finish that will outlast the finisher.On the other hand, "I don't have time" and wood finishing are mutually exclusive concepts. The laws of physics and Murphy are as operative in your shop as they are in mine and any other place wood finishing is done. I know the process gets attempted a million times a day, and project planning NEVER leaves room for finishing, but approach a wood finishing job with the expectation that it has to be done "tomorrow" and you will wind up doing it over.Rich

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Feb 22, 2009 06:23am | #10

   Rich, I think you have a serious misunderstanding of the thinned wipe-on finishing process.If the finish is thinned 50/50 with mineral spirits, it will take 2-3 coats of finish to get the equivilent film thickness as you would get with 1 coat of unthinned brushed on varnish. The process is to apply the first coat followed by the second coat as soon as the first coat has become tack free (an hour or two). Let the two coats dry 24 hours and then flat sand with 320 paper. Do not use a flexible abrasive like steel wool or scotchbrite as these do not flatten the surface. Now apply 3-4 more coats (no between coat sanding is necessary unless you have created some finishing defect). Recoat as soon as the preceding coat has become tack free. There is no need to wait 48-72 hours. This can easily be done in one day. Let the finish dry 24 hours and apply one final coat. At this point you will have spent no more time than you would have if brushing on a full strength finish. The final film thickness will be no thicker than an equivalent 2-3 coats of a brushed on fill thickness oil based finish so long term curing is no different.Of course, a sprayed on shellac or lacquer is a faster finish but it is less protective and durable.Howie.........

1. 
   Rich14 | Feb 22, 2009 03:12pm | #11

   Howie,I think you have a serious misunderstanding of what I wrote.I was referring to the futility of using an oil or an oil/varnish finish as a quick way of finishing. Those finishes are typically wiped on and wiped off "as dry as possible." It is common practice to apply coats after the first with a steel wool pad (or not) as the applicator which burnishes the previous (somewhat hardened), very thin coat.I really wasn't addressing wipe on varnish, but if you'll read, I did say that varnish could, like shellac or lacquer achieve a very close-to-the-wood appearance with a low luster as the OP had asked about.I have no use for "wiping varnish." I have recommended thinned varnish (the same 50:50 dilution) as the first coat and as the last coat to people who have little finishing experience and who have gotten frustrated to the point of exasperation with the problems that can happen with varnish. It's amazing how easy it is to apply a 50:50 mix to a properly-leveled (320 grit) and cured base varnish layer as the final coat, have it flow out like water and set up like glass.But I don't like using or advocating "wiping varnish" as the entire process. It takes MANY more applications than the dilution ratio would seem to indicate to get a film thickness equivalent to undiluted. And it is a "training wheel" approach to learning how to apply varnish. Which is NOT difficult, it just takes willingness to pay attention to the needs of the process like learning ANY acquired skill.A 50:50 varnish/mineral spirits mix puts down far, far less finish than full-strength varnish. It certainly doesn't put down 50%, because the viscosity seems to decrease exponentially as the amount of solvent increases and the film runs out to an exceedingly thin layer. I've never measured it, but I don't think a 50:50 mix puts down even 20-25% of the film (mostly on the low side of that) that full strength does. That means, to achieve the equivalent protection, it's necessary to apply as much as 4-5 applications, not the 2 or 3 as you've suggested.Wipe-on varnish is the result of manufacturers trying to sell to weekend finishers who may finish 1 or 2 projects in a lifetime. The person who has no experience wipes on a coat, it dries looking shiny and they convince themself they've got an heirloom. There is very little protection or beauty there, but that customer would never attempt anything else, so the product is a success."Of course, a sprayed on shellac or lacquer is a faster finish but it is less protective and durable."THAT is the most ridiculous statement I've heard here in a while. I KNOW you know better than that, so other than saying you are dead wrong, I'll leave this alone. I stand by everything I've written in the thread. Maybe you need to re-read it.Rich

   Edited 2/22/2009 7:17 am ET by Rich14

2. 
   Gretchen | Feb 22, 2009 03:27pm | #12

   I was OK with your disdain of wipe on varnish as a finish until you said it was invented by manufacturers selling their product to weekend refinishers. We like good looking finishes also, and I have used it for close to 50 years, having gotten it from a book on finishing by Ralph Parsons Kinney.  Not every "bible" has been written in the last 20 years.

   Wipe on finishes are just as durable as the finisher makes them--and can be applied with much less angst than brushing.  I will not go further with MY disdain for some "professional" finishes, and how THEY look.

   And you pretty much said in the first post--"put on 3 coats and you are good to go". NOT  AND not 4 or 5 either. It takes at least 8 for a table top in my experience. you may get by with 6 on sides and aprons that do not get the wear of a top.  I don't think you have ever done one so maybe you should not advise about it. 

   Gretchen

   Edited 2/22/2009 7:29 am ET by Gretchen

3. 
   Rich14 | Feb 22, 2009 04:09pm | #13

   Hi Gretchen,As the fomum's chief evangelist for wipe-on-varnish, I was wondering why you hadn't jumped in here earlier. Here we go again.If you want to throw around longevity as a requisite, I've got you beat by a big margin. But who want's to listen to a couple of old coots tell people how long they've been around?I assure you, I have had PLENTY of experience with thinned varnish. And I've used everything from $100/gallon marine grade to the cheapest Ace Hardware specials. And yeah, I know we have been thinning it since way back when. But it's still a marketing ploy to sell to hardware store browsers who would never attempt using anything full-strength.You didn't quite understand my comment about needing 4-5 applications. That's to equal a SINGLE application of full-strength. Since I actually apply at LEAST 3 coats of full strength (leveling and rubbing out removes almost as much as one applies when it's done right) when I use varnish, the equivalent of wipe-on applications is actually higher than your figure of 8.But then, my goal in finishing varnish is to achieve a film that is almost indistinguishable from that of a fine shellac or lacquer film.But, gosh, in 50 years of using varnish, you've never been able to master brushing the stuff on right out of the can? In 50 years?Pity. I guess the varnish industry keeps selling it that way, blind to the REAL way it should be applied, huh? Come on over, I'll have you up to speed with a fully-loaded brush in a day! A full coat in ONE shot. What a concept. Just like the big boys!Oops, forgot I was talking to the most fervent advocate of wipe-on in existence.OK, sarcasm off. I don't expect anyone to use ANY technique that ANY of us recommend here. Whatever works. It's enough that someone reads something here and tries SOMETHING. ANYTHING. And maybe modifies it to work his/her way. And maybe does it enough times to get good at it.Rich

   Edited 2/22/2009 8:09 am ET by Rich14

4. 
   wolfonce | Feb 22, 2009 05:21pm | #14

   Thanx to all for your help.

3. 
   terrylee86 | Feb 21, 2009 10:55pm | #7

   I agree with Rick 100%. I am not a big shellac guy, but it has it's place. You can do so much with lacquer, I often wonder why people use so many other finishes. Spraying is not that difficult and it gives you the most flawless finish without followup you can get. If you play with sheens and numbers of coats you can get any look you are going for. Lacquer is easy to repair and is very durable. The precats I use today are not as easy to repair, but are more durable. If you are looking for fast and bulletproof use conversion varnish, it is the finish of choice in the woodworking industry today. I am not a big fan of it because you better clean your guns very well after using it or you will be throwing them away.

   
   

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   Edited 2/21/2009 2:56 pm ET by terrylee86

1. 
   wolfonce | Feb 21, 2009 11:57pm | #8

   That was easy. Here's maybe a tougher question. What's the difference between Pre-catylised and nitrocellulose lacquer. When would you use either.

1. 
   Rich14 | Feb 22, 2009 01:21am | #9

   Dave,Nitrocellulose lacquer is the original synthetic product (late 1920s or early 1930s, I believe), that industry developed to be a "better shellac," which was the prevalent finish at that time. It's indistinguishable from clear (blond) shellac when dry. It doesn't have any of the color of the darker shellac varieties but it imparts a slight amber hue to the wood.Nitro, like all lacquers is insoluble in alcohol, making it preferable for furniture that could have a drink spilled on it. Shellac and nitro are otherwise equally (very) hard and durable. It's a solution of nitrocellulose resin in solvents and vehicles which include plasticizers, agents to control the rate of evaporation of the liquids and other proprietary substances, depending on the manufacturer. Like shellac, it dries by evaporation of the liquid components. And it dries very rapidly. There is no chemical reaction involved, unlike oils, varnishes and catalyzed lacquer.Catalyzed lacquers are mixtures of proprietary resins, often Nitro or others in combination, with solvents and catalysts to effect drying/hardening. They "cure" harder than non-catalyzed lacquer as the result of the catalytic reactions. Pre-catalyzed (or pre-cat) lacquer has no catalyst until it's purchased. At that time, the catalyst is added and the stuff has to be used within the time limit specified (the "pot life").Post-cat lacquer is catalyzed just prior to use.The advantages of cat lacquer (hardness, increased resistance to a wide variety of household solvents and acids) are offset by the limited pot life, the need for very stringent clean-up and damage to equipment not properly-cleaned (ordinary dry lacquer can be cleaned out of a poorly-cleaned gun simply with enough lacquer solvent and patience) and difficulty making repairs. (Although good re-finishers can repair cat lacquer jobs without evidence of the touch-up)Non-cat lacquer is very easy to repair as the old lacquer dissolves with the new spray's solvent.I used to use Nitro, but now only use CAB Acrylic lacquer (Cellulose Acetate Butyrate Acrylic lacquer). It handles exactly like Nitro, uses the same solvents, but goes down "water-white" and stays that way. It imparts no color at all to the wood.Rich