Lie-Nielsen vs Veritas Low-Angle Jack
minnesota
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
I am considering the purchase of either a Lie-Nielsen or a Veritas Low-Angle Jack Plane.
Has any one had the oppurtunity to work with either or both of these planes?
Thanks in advance for any and all comments!
Replies
Hello. I have not worked with both of these planes but I did own both the LN 4 1/2 and the LV 4 1/2. Hands down the LN is a better plane. The machining specs are what I think really separates the two. The flatness of the bottom [sole] is a critical factor in how well a plane operates. Using the 4 1/2's as an example the LN is guaranteed flatter than .0015 while the LV is flatter than .003". This may sound pretty finicky but if you are trying to plane your final finish you are looking at shavings of around .001" and that is hard to achieve when your sole is not very flat. I am not saying don't buy the LV but I would e-mail them and ask the tolerance of the sole machining. LV is and excellent company with excellent products for the price. I was just going to lap my LV smoother myself but then I tried the LN and decided to purchase that. I am sure that they are both excellent planes but if you want the best then I would purchase a LN. Peter
The L-N low angle jack is widely considered one of the best and most versatile planes on the market. I love mine and you can't go wrong with that choice.
Hi Peter -
Actually - we manufacture to the same tolerances...LN is +-.0015, we are 0.000-.003... both are an absolute variance of .003"...
We maintain a hollow has zero effect on accuracy of a plane (concavity) a "bump" on the sole does (convexity)... we allow zero convexity.
Really - it's where the variance is that's most important... the locus of points around the perimeter of the sole, and in fornt of, and behind the mouth are most critical. Tou could drill a 1" hole 2" in front of the mouth and have no effect on a plane's performance. Just think of corrugations on a bench plane - those are "concavities"....
Cheers -
Rob
Rob,I would love to see LV represented at WW shows. I was really bummed that I couldn't compare LV tools to LN ones at Denver's recent show. I ended up buying two beautiful LN handplanes, but might just as well bought LV if I could just see and use the tools first hand like I did with LN (note that I didn't 100% trust their rep either, solid as it is; had to see and feel.) LV has so many smaller tools that I'd love to check out; the 3 in 1 marking guage, the striking knife, spokeshaves, on and on. I'm a long way south and west of you; I would really like to see you guys at a show. That said, I'm still looking forward to the arrival of my LV medium shoulder plane currently on BO. Looks great, can't wait.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie,
I was at the Springfield Mass WWS and Varitus and Lie Neilson were there. Here is a surprise, the guy running the LN booth didn't even adjust the planes - they were loose with drooping planes and simply an embarassment to LN. Varitus was just the opposet. Everything was set to the nines - the planes behaved perfectly. I just ordered $ 400 worth of stuff from them (which would have gone to LN if I relied in internet info) and am thinking hard about adding the low angle 12 inch plane tonight - it is on the wish list. LN needs to show up at the shows and do a bit more than unpack. My dollars went elsewhere.
Best,
Jim
Well..I was at the Denver show, and LN was beyond great. They were swamped at all times, but took time to get into great detail with every customer who had a question. I spent hours watching the guy demo these planes and their uses, sharpening, adjustment, everything. I think that was more valuable than the planes themselves, even. I can't knock LN at our WW show, they were beyond great.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie,
They may be great there , but they were just farting around in Springfield - It was so lame it was humorous!
Jim
A short time ago there was a posting on this very subject. The discussion centered around the price difference mostly. It was argued that the Veritas is one heck of a good tool and there was little arguement there. The fact is, in my opinion, that the L-N is made to a much higher degree of quality and Id buy it just because it looks so good. The Veritas works well but the L-N has soul just sitting there on the shelf. I have the low angle smoother and it is a dream to use. I have achieved the age where I start to look at things I buy in the terms of passing it on to my sons. Id prefer to pass on the L-N......." heirloom quality tools"
Wicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewforum.php?f=11&sid=b50f2f73451ebf63557feaebab1c09da
This bloke regularly reviews Veritas planes.
ummmm... Boss... not that I'm lookin to split any hairs but ummm Alf's a woman...
not that that lessens the quality of the review..
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Edited 2/3/2005 6:26 pm ET by Mike
Hey,
I own the LN #62 and love it; however, it bears pointing out that the Veritas has one very useful feature that the LN lacks: it has a set screw that can be adjusted and which prevents the mouth adjustment from accidentally slamming into your freshly honed blade. I haven't used the Veritas, but have lamented the lack of such a feature on my LN more than once; this is b/c the tolerances are so tight on the mouth adjustment that I need to apply some force to adjust the mouth--needless to say, when you're working in real close on that mouth adjustment, it's nerve racking. The Veritas also has more area in front of the blade, I believe.
I do love my LN #62, though...
Charlie
I just bought my 10th and 11th Lie-Nielsen plane. I don't have a #62 but I do have a #164. If you can afford it, the #5 1/2 Jack will be of more use than the #62. The #5 1/2 can be used as a jointer for smaller pieces easier than the #62
The fit and finish and feel in the hand and on the stock with a Lie-Nielsen simply has to be experienced. If you want to stay with English styled planes - Lie-Nielsen.
_________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
Hi, Michael,Re: the 5 1/2 vs the #62 on versatility, I disagree for a fairly simple reason, demo'd to me by the L-N rep at a WW show; the 5 1/2 has a set bed angle and being bevel down, that angle is not changable. The #62, however, uses a bevel-up blade, and the effective cutting angle can be changed from, say 25 deg for end grain to 50 deg for figured grain in about 5 minutes with a simple re-honing of the micro-bevel. The mouth adjusts in literally 10 seconds.Now, I haven't tested this, but it seems an easy bet that any of the smoothers or the 5 1/2--any Bedrock-style plane--will do it's job better than the #62 can do that same job (probably true of any specialized tool). But the #62 can do that job adequately, and so many others. I was using my #62 just today to square a large-ish panel because I have never developed a decent crosscut sled; I just crosscut the panel to near-length with a ryoba and used the #62 to plane to the line. Worked astoundingly well. After I cut the dovetails for that panel, I'll use the #62 to smooth the proud pins and tails. As I was jointing the edges of those large panels for a reference to determine if the end-grain was square, I found the #62 more than long enough to straighten a 38" side, and far eaiser than my #7 jointer--maybe 'cause it's lighter--to keep the edge square to the sides. I used a toothed blade for the #62 to scrub the panels flat after gluing up. I've only had it for about 6 weeks, and the handle is worn down to bare wood. It would be better to have lots of planes, one for each job, but I can't afford it. The L-N rep thought this would give the most bang for my sad buck, and I have to applaud his suggestion. It's been great for me.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie
"I've only had it for about 6 weeks, and the handle is worn down to bare wood."
Well, you had better stop using it before you wear it out._________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
"Well, you had better stop using it before you wear it out." ...Hmm...ChI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
I have had the Veritas LA Jack for about a year. It is a really versatile plane, especially with both high and low angle blades. A nice feature also is the screw that allows control of the sliding toe piece to adjust mouth opening. I have not tried the LN, but it would have to be a whloe lot better to justify the difference in price. The fit and finish on the Veritas is no less than excellent. I have about ten hand planes, and the LA Jack is the " go to" plane in many situations.
Sioncerely,
MikeN
I own the LN #62 LA Jack. I recently borrowed the Veritas LA Jack from a friend to evaluate it. I also own the Veritas LA Smoother. After using the smoother since it was first introduced I found I prefer the Norris style adjuster to the LN/Bailey style adjuster with the yolk and knob. The Norris has less backlash and is a very positive adjustment. The only planes I've tried that have a nold Bailey yolk/knob style adjuster and little backlash approaching that of the Norris, but not quite, are the new Clifton bench planes and an old pre-war Stanley. The machining on the LN is very good but there is still an amount of backlash. The Veritas uses a pin on the Norris style adjuster that fits into a tightly machined hole in the blade. Even after fettling the LN, the smoothness of the blade adjustment is better on the Veritas. I don't care too much for the alignment screws machined into the side of the Veritas. I removed and tossed them. One other thing is that you have easy side to side adjustment with the Norris. With the LN I need to bump the blade with a plane adjusting hammer to align the blade.
My LN #62 is a nice looking plane, has a comfortable handle and looks better than the Veritas, but from my standpoint as a user I much prefer the Veritas because of the adjuster and it has a wider blade. Also, I like the mouth adjuster/limiting screw feature on the Veritas. Occasionally I get clumsy while using the LN and bump the blade while adjusting the mouth. However, the chances of doing this can be reduced by taking the front end apart, removing rough edges and waxing the surfaces. The Veritas does require a little more fettling out of the box, but it's nothing out of the ordinary and should not be an issue for any plane user. This includes flattening the sole and increasing the bevel angle to something above the stock 25 degrees. I've found 25 degrees is too acute for the Veritas blades. They come with a micro-bevel, but I usually remove that. I don't like micro-bevels. I don't feel they are needed.
So the LN will go on the chopping block in favor of the Veritas sometime soon.
Wow..fascinating. I just chose a Veritas shoulder plane over the LN one. This eases my anxiety somewhat. Wish I could try the Veritas LA jack.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
"With the LN I need to bump the blade with a plane adjusting hammer to align the blade."
That statement baffles me. Why would you try to achieve a fine blade adjustment with a hammer? Why don't you just loosen the blade a quarter turn and align it with your thumb?
Your approach to the LV blade centering screws is also a bit eccentric. That mechanism is patented by LV and is one of the most popular features for most people. What led you to throw them away?
Finally, if you're esperiencing backlash on the Bailey-style blade depth adjustment you might be doing it wrong. Always adjust the blade forward. If you do that, you shouldn't get any backlash at all.
"That statement baffles me. Why would you try to achieve a fine blade adjustment with a hammer? Why don't you just loosen the blade a quarter turn and align it with your thumb?"
Because it's quicker with a plane adjusting hammer. I use a lot of wooden planes, like Japanese planes, so I'm pretty good with adjusting blades with a small hammer. With the Norris syle I can adjust the side to side alignment as I'm advancing the blade.
"Your approach to the LV blade centering screws is also a bit eccentric. That mechanism is patented by LV and is one of the most popular features for most people. What led you to throw them away?"
Why do you need them? To keep the blade straight as it's advanced? The Norris adjuster is there for the side to side alignment. I think you hit the nail on the head when you say it's "..one of the most popular features...." I think it was in response to many customer's input. It's a "nice" feature, but I don't find it necessary. I hear a lot of praise for it from novices that have trouble adjusting and tuning the plane. It helps them with the alignment.
"Finally, if you're esperiencing backlash on the Bailey-style blade depth adjustment you might be doing it wrong. Always adjust the blade forward. If you do that, you shouldn't get any backlash at all."
I think there's a difference in terminology here. I refer to backlash as the dead space when you change from advancing the blade to retracting it or vice versa. The blade is not moving during this time. You can remove this on the yolk type adjusters by removing the yolk and with a vise offsetting the round ends that fit in the adjuster knob. But you have to be careful because you may end up breaking the yolk.
"Why would you try to achieve a fine blade adjustment with a hammer?"Y'know, the LN rep at my recent WW show was doing that, too. I do what you do--loosen and use my thumb--but he could adjust very quickly and accurately; there must be something to it. (He also had a very specialized, tiny brass hammer, very esoteric.)Re: backlash, I agree that the inarguable backlash in my #62 is not an issue; even if a plane seemed to have no backlash, it seems that there must be at least some tiny anount; so, I'd have to adjust forward to make sure I was held tight in any case. CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Is the choice that you make going to be your only plane? Do you have any others or plan on getting others? If I was only buying 1 general purpose plane it would not be a low angle. What do you really want to use this plane for? Lets see what others recommend based upon what you reply to these questions. Peter.
At this time I only own a Veritas Low-Angle Block Plane. I was planning on purchasing a Low-Angle Jack, and a Scrub Plane for working small boards. I won't be purchasing any other planes until I learn to use these tools efficiently.Thanks again in advance guys & gals for all of your advice and comments.
I have read them all, and I do appreciate each and every one!
"I was planning on purchasing a Low-Angle Jack, and a Scrub Plane for working small boards"This brings to mind a point. LN sells a toothed blade for their LA jack that can be used to scrub. It will take a very deep cut by regular standards--maybe not by scrub plane standards--with no tearout at all. After having it for 6 weeks or so, I can say that it works OK. To work efficiently, you scrub grooves into the top of the work, then shave 'em off with another plane, the same length or shorter, set to the same depth. You save material this wayno tearout--but I think it's probably slower than a real scrub. (Then again, maybe not; you don't have to plane off a bunch of tearout after scrubbing.) But the #62 is a little long for scrubbing...anyway, I still plan to get a real scrubber eventually.But my point is that I have not heard that LV offers such a blade; you could buy the LN #62 and for an extra $40 get a toothed blade, and maybe wait on the scrubber. That's how I did it.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Thanks for all of the great points & opinions.I think I have it narrowed down to either the LN or the LV. (-;
I think we've established that both are excellent planes, subtly different in their strengths, but no one stands above the other as the better tool. I think one important factor that hasn't been discussed so far is the totes.
Form previous discussions both here and elsewhere, I've learned that the LN tote is closer to the Stanley pitch than the more upright LV. Apparently this has a lot to do with the height of your bench affecting the ergonomics of the tool..
If your bench is built to a height that's comfortable for hand tool use, the pitch of the LN plane may be better suited to you. On the other hand, if your bench reflects the more modern trend in being slightly higher (optomised for machine tool use), the more upright pitch of the LV may be more to your liking.. Of course, just to complicate things, LV intend to release tote kits allowing users to customise to suit their own needs..Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike,I am 5'11" tall and my bench is 36" to the top. I have found working on a lower surface more tedious when using hand tools. I certainly feel it in my back when I do alot of hand work on a lower work surface.Haven't noticed a difference in tote design except that the LN totes are slightly larger than the older Stanleys which I find to be quite beneficial when doing alot of handplaning. I don't own any Lee Valley tools so I cant say one way or the other as to their quality or ease of use.How tall is your bench?J.P.
I know what you're sayin re back pain... meds are a constant part of my life for that very thing...
My current bench is around 34" and it's too low for comfort; I've a redesign penciled in for sometime later this year..
some of the tool reviews at the link below will shed more light on the tote differences...
http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2054Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Thanks for the info. Quite a lengthly comparison of planes. Although it was well written and I think could help shed some light on the Lie-Nielsen vs Lee Valley debate. As for me, as long as it works, I'm happy.Sorry to hear about your pain. Have you tried stretching or Yoga?Supposed to help muscle fatigue and pain.J.P.
MN
Have test driven the LN's numerous times and own the Veritas #4 1/2, the Veritas LA smoother, scraping plane and medium shoulder. I prefer the adjustments on the LV as others have stated. Just a personal decision as the price difference gives you a jump start on another plane. Unfortunately, one plane won't do it all.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I have the LN #62, low angle Jack and bought this at the same time, as a bunch of old Stanley's off ebay.
The LN is built like a Rolls Royce, and makes a beautiful display item, but the old #6 Stanley, made in 1931, does the job of smooth planing just as good and is actually more comfortable.
I use the LN, now with high angles taking very thin shavings on hard figured wood and with a 25 degree bevel, for end grain.
Lie-Nielsen vs. Veritas hand planes
LIE-NIELSEN VS. VERITAS
I have several planes and other tools from Lie-Nielsen and I have nothing but praise for all of these tools, both in function and in form.
Recently, however, I was in the market for a large shoulder plane and decided I liked the design and features of the Veritas version over the Lie-Nielsen. When the Veritas large shoulder plane arrived, I have to confess I was very impressed with the quality of the tool – it works great, is very comfortable to use (especially on it’s side) and looks superb. Oddly, however, I noticed that the blade, although quite sharp right out of the box, was not highly polished on all sides as is common on all Lie-Nielsen tools. The back of the blade is actually a dull gray. But as the tool is superb in every other respect, I overlooked this small flaw.
When I decided to order a low angle jack plane, again I decided I liked the design and features of the Veritas plane over the Lie-Nielsen. When trying the Veritas low angle jack for the first time, again I noticed that the blade was not polished on all sides. Again the back of the blade was a dull gray color and it looked like some coating had dripped all over the sides of the blade and is very sloppy looking. Although the top of the blade was polished, it wasn’t the best job. The blade was definitely razor sharp right out of the box and performs flawlessly, but esthetically, it is quite a disappointment.
In addition to the blade disappointment, I noticed the knob and tote were not finished to the level of a Lie-Nielsen. The LN handles are finished to absolute perfection – they are high gloss and super smooth, a pleasure to touch and feel. The Veritas knob and tote were dull in comparison and the tote actually felt rough – far short of the quality of LN.
The Veritas low angle jack plane does perform flawlessly, both upright and on it’s side for shooting. It is an excellent plane and has some interesting features like set screws to stabilize sideward movement of the blade and a thumbscrew to use as a stop on the mouth setting. But for the price, I expected the highly polished blade, knob and tote that I consistently get from Lie-Nielsen. I’m still debating whether I should return the plane and purchase the Lie-Nielsen instead.
If I never owned or touched a Lie-Nielsen plane, I would have been thrilled with the Veritas low angle jack. Like I said, functionally, the tool is excellent, but I’m afraid I’ve been spoiled by the best. Both firms manufacture excellent, hard working tools. Lie-Nielsen tools, however, are also a work of art.
LIE-NIELSEN VS. VERITAS
I have several planes and other tools from Lie-Nielsen and I have nothing but praise for all of these tools, both in function and in form.
Recently, however, I was in the market for a large shoulder plane and decided I liked the design and features of the Veritas version over the Lie-Nielsen. When the Veritas large shoulder plane arrived, I have to confess I was very impressed with the quality of the tool – it works great, is very comfortable to use (especially on it’s side) and looks superb. Oddly, however, I noticed that the blade, although quite sharp right out of the box, was not highly polished on all sides as is common on all Lie-Nielsen tools. The back of the blade is actually a dull gray. But as the tool is superb in every other respect, I overlooked this small flaw.
When I decided to order a low angle jack plane, again I decided I liked the design and features of the Veritas plane over the Lie-Nielsen. When trying the Veritas low angle jack for the first time, again I noticed that the blade was not polished on all sides. Again the back of the blade was a dull gray color and it looked like some coating had dripped all over the sides of the blade and is very sloppy looking. Although the top of the blade was polished, it wasn’t the best job. The blade was definitely razor sharp right out of the box and performs flawlessly, but esthetically, it is quite a disappointment.
In addition to the blade disappointment, I noticed the knob and tote were not finished to the level of a Lie-Nielsen. The LN handles are finished to absolute perfection – they are high gloss and super smooth, a pleasure to touch and feel. The Veritas knob and tote were dull in comparison and the tote actually felt rough – far short of the quality of LN.
The Veritas low angle jack plane does perform flawlessly, both upright and on it’s side for shooting. It is an excellent plane and has some interesting features like set screws to stabilize sideward movement of the blade and a thumbscrew to use as a stop on the mouth setting. But for the price, I expected the highly polished blade, knob and tote that I consistently get from Lie-Nielsen. I’m still debating whether I should return the plane and purchase the Lie-Nielsen instead.
If I never owned or touched a Lie-Nielsen plane, I would have been thrilled with the Veritas low angle jack. Like I said, functionally, the tool is excellent, but I’m afraid I’ve been spoiled by the best. Both firms manufacture excellent, hard working tools. Lie-Nielsen tools, however, are also a work of art.
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