Replies

1. 
   RalphBarker | Apr 26, 2010 10:10am | #1

   Have fun, G.

   I assume special attention will be given to dovetail and tenon saws, based on the location?  ;-)

1. 
   gdblake | Apr 26, 2010 02:37pm | #2

   Saw, planes, chisels, and vices will all get attention

   Ralph:

   Lie-Nielsen will definitely be showcasing their line of saws in addition to planes and chisels.  I am particularly fond of their 16" tenon saw (I should be, my specifications for a custom 16" tenon saw became the new production 16" tenon saw.  I hope those of you who have already bought one are happy with my specs.  Personally, I think the saw cuts like a dream).  Ron Brese will show off his incredible infill planes, Bob Zajicek makes beautiful marking knives and awls plus offers a kit form,  Jameel Abraham will be demonstrating a beautiful bench with the most amazing vice hardware I've ever seen.  Woodcraft will have a variety of items in addition to my showing off shop made wooden planes, and Highland Hardware are bound to have a few surprises too. 

   If anybody can get to Kennesaw, GA on these two dates they won't be dissappointed.  The Hand Tool Events are said to be like a mini Woodworking in America Conference.

   gdblake

1. 
   9619 | Apr 26, 2010 04:37pm | #3

   Ralph,

   I have the LN 16"

   Ralph,

   I have the LN 16" tenon saw. Lo.ve it.    You must have given them a nice set of specs.   

   I have been to the last two LN shows in the greater Washington, DC area (Gaithersburg, MD,  and Frederick, MD).   Learned a lot both times and enjoyed the heck out ot it.         LN will be back in this area in June.  Am looking forward to it again.   

   Sure would have liked to see your wood planes at the Atlanta show. 

   I do have a question for you.  I have a Birds Eye maple board that was roughly thicnkessed by machine to 4/4, and it has some hellacious tearout.        It is rather flat.   I just need to get rid of the tearout.    How would you tackle it?   What plane setup would you start with   ( maybe a try plane or a foreplane with a moderate camber????)   and what would you progress to?      A joiinter with little or no camber, and finally a smoother.    My smoother is a LN 4 1/2 setup as I bought it.   Later I will get high angle frog. 

   Any advice would be appreciated.  

   Thank you.

   Mel

1. 
   gdblake | Apr 26, 2010 10:46pm | #4

   Mel, get a high angle plane

   Mel:

   You need a high angle plane to tame that birdseye maple.  I made a little smoother styled after HNT Gordon's smoother (http://www.hntgordon.com.au/prodcatsmoother.htm) with a 60 degree frog.  It gives me a smooth surface even planing against the grain on most woods.  You could also use a bevel up smoother with a 48 degree microbevel on the iron.  If these don't work its time for a scraper plane.  Lee Valley's is the best one I know of.  Or make your own using the Krenov method of construction.  Glad you like how the 16" LN tenon saw turned out.  The thinner sawplate was Tom's idea, the 11 ppi with a slight rake on the tooth configuration and 4 + inches of useable saw plate under the brass back were mine.  Out of the box it is the smoothest cutting saw I have ever used.

   gdblake

1. 
   9619 | Apr 26, 2010 11:15pm | #5

   GD,

   I am in no hurry to play with my Birds Eye Maple board.  I am going to the LN show in June and was thinking of getting a high angle frog for my 4 1/2.     I take it that you would recommend the Middle Pitch (55 deg) over the York Pitch (50 deg) frog?????

   I am glad to know that you had an input in the design of the LN 16" rip tenon saw.   How did your involvement in that design come about?     Have you been involved in the design of other LN tools?

   Mel

2. 
   gdblake | Apr 27, 2010 03:33am | #6

   high angle frog for LN plane

   Mel:

   I have a LN #4 with the 50 degree frog.  Great plane, but not steep enough of a pitch to hand the birdseye maple.  The 55 degree frog might do it.  Last year I attended the Lie-Nielsen Handtool Event in Cincinnati, OH.  Thomas Lie-Nielsen saw me checking out his new panel saws and struck up a conversation.  We talked a fairly long time.  I had been doing a lot of research on tenon saws and had already decided I wanted a 16" long saw with 4 1/4" depth of cut, 11 ppi filed rip with slight rake to make for smoother cutting.  I have an old Disston 14" #4 that I had filed this way, but the saw was a little short, only had 3 3/8" depth of cut, and a highly pitted sawplate.  I shared this information with Tom and he offered to custom make a 16" long tenon saw for me.  Tom wanted to go with 10 ppi and no rake to match his existing 14" tenon saw, but I insisted on 11 ppi with slight rake.  Tom said okay, took my money, and I went home looking forward to being able to brag about having a custom LN tenon saw.  Instead, Tom decided to take the specs for my custom order and make it a standard item (others had encouraged him to make a 16" saw before I came along).  Tom was in Atlanta a few months back at both Woodcraft and Highland Hardware.  Tom confirmed in front of witnesses that when they made the custom saw cut so well that he stuck with the tooth configuration on the production saw even though it required hand filing.  By the way, I never did get the custom saw. They kept it and shipped me one of the first handful of production saws.  No complaints, the saw I have cuts even better than I hoped for when I placed the custom order.  It is a great tool.

   gdblake

3. 
   9619 | Apr 27, 2010 07:15am | #7

   GD,

   If we ever get together, and I hope we do, I would like you to sign my 16" LN tenon saw.     Your story on your conversation with Tom is a great one. 

   If you ever get a chance, please go to EBay and do a search.  Type in "saw hand sharpened".   You will find a seller named Azmica.   His name is Michael Merlo and he lives in California.  He has about 2000 saws.  He fixes them up and sells them on Ebay.   He sells about  sox or seven a week.   I'd like to hear your reaction to his set of ads on EBay.  You have the background to make a good judgement.    I bought an old Disston #8 crosscut from him for about $79 and it works fine. He is a very "intense" guy, who uses a lot of words.   But of course, on that subject, I shouldn't talk.  Ha ha.

   I guess I will go for the higher pitched frog.  for my 5 1/2.   Or do you think that it would be better to skip that and get a BU smoother?    Unfortuntately I don't have the money to buy everything.  :-)

   Mel

4. 
   gdblake | Apr 27, 2010 06:16pm | #8

   High pitched frog or bevel up smoother

   Mel:

   If memory serves me, you are mostly a bevel down kind of guy.  I was for years until the LN bevel up smoother came out.  I had tried a bunch of smoothers prior to it and none could give me the results I was after.  I have never regretted buying the BU smoother.  I like it so much a couple years later I bought the LN BU Jack.  I use the jack constantly, it is a very versatile plane.  Which brings me to answering your question.  If you don't already have a BU plane, I would start with the Lee Valley BU Jack.  While I have the LN, I got a chance to use the LV a few years ago and consider it the better plane.  It is closer in size to your 5 1/2.  That extra weight makes a huge difference in use, plus it has a better grip for use with a shooting board.

   Another way to go is to build some planes using the Krenov method.  It is quick, easy, and not all that expensive.  Making a bunch of wooden planes has allowed me to experiment with different configurations and in the process learn a great deal.  I have thrown away more of these than I have kept (I made a lot of junk during the learning phase).  My planes are not as refined as a Clark & Williams or an HNT Gordon, but they work. 

   gdblake

5. 
   9619 | Apr 27, 2010 06:52pm | #9

   GD,

   I may be a BD type of guy, but I am learning fast, and always open to suggestion.  I have heard a number of others voice the same opinion you did about the LV BU Jack.     I will definitely consider that.   I thought about the BU smoother first, but your suggestion makes sense.  

   About getting into the plane making area -  I have made one block plane.    I have a long list of things I want to do in furniture and in carving.   Making planes takes time.   Life is full of tradeoffs.   I am not the woodworker that you are, and you had a steep learning  curve in plane making.  I believe it would take me longer.  Not that it wouldn't be a good experience and a valuable one, but I'd just as soon buy one of the HNT GOrdon high angle planes than going thru the process of making five and then finally getting one that works.  

   OK.   Let's look further at the LV BU Jack.      How many irons do you recommend?  and how configured (angles and camber?

   For working difficult grains, suppose we considered two planes.   After the LV BU Jack,  would your second recommendation be the HNT GORDON high angle smoother,  or possibly a LN scraper plane or something else.   I'd like to aim at a "system" and to think of the set of planes that will help me do the job well.   I am not a collector. 

   I really do appreciate your help on this.    I see you as being open to all makers and to both metal and wood, and I see you as a pragmatist, not a salesman.    Am I close?

   Thanks,

   Mel

6. 
   flairwoodworks | Apr 27, 2010 09:58pm | #10

   Toothed blade?

   Have either of you tried a toothed blade before?  The cutting action is truly unique and the shaving pretty cool too.  That aside, it is quite effective at taking heavier cuts in hard/figured woods.

   Mel,

   Regarding your maple with tearout, I would either start planing perpendicular against the grain with a bench plane and a regular blade or with a toothed blade, either across, diagonal, or with the grain before following up with a non-toothed blade at a high effective cutting angle.

7. 
   gdblake | Apr 28, 2010 08:57am | #11

   3 irons then add a scraper plane

   Mel:

   If you decide to get a LV BU jack get two additional irons.  Give one a 33 degree microbevel for an effective cutting angle of 45 degrees and the other a43 degree microbevel for an effective cutting angle of 55 degrees.  Rather than get another smoother, I think it's time for a scraper plane.  Again, I would go with the LV version.  It works better than the LN scraper planes in my experience.  Chris gave you good advice regarding planing the birdseye perpendicular to the grain and trying a toothing blade in place of a standard iron.

   Given that you have a LN 5 1/2 jack plane and a 4 1/2 smoother getting a 55 degree frog that can be shared by these two planes looks like it would make more sense than buying a bevel up plane just to hone its iron to yield a 55 degree angle of attack.  However, I have both a LN #4 with a 50 degree frog and their BU smoother which is basically the same size.  With a 38 degree microbevel honed on the iron, the BU smoother has the same 50 degree angle of attack as the #4, but yields less tearout and a smoother surface on all woods.  I think there are two reasons for this.  One, the iron is supported closer to the cutting edge on the BU plane and second, the iron of the BU plane is thicker.  In terms of weight, the #4 is a quarter pound heavier, so in this instance the lighter plane works better.

   If you can hold off for a couple of weeks I will try to test drive a LN plane with the 55 degree frog installed and see how it performs during the Hand Tool Event. 

   gdblake

8. 
   9619 | Apr 28, 2010 09:18am | #12

   GD,

   I move slowly in making purchases.     Two weeks is nothing.   Please take your time and let me know after you do the test.

   When the LN show comes to town in June, I will get a 55 deg frog for my LN 4 1/2   and 5 1/2.

   If that works almost as well as the BU Jack on difficult grain, then that would save some money.

   Sounds like a LV scraper plane is in my future, with the toothed blade.  Maybe that and the 55 deg frog for my existing planes will make a good combo for difficult grains. 

   So about the LV scraper -- it comes with either a thinner blade that can be "bowed" or with a thicker blade that remains straight.    Any preferences?

   You and Chris may make a woodworker out of my yet!

   Thank you.     NO HURRY.

   Mel

9. 
   flairwoodworks | Apr 30, 2010 09:39pm | #16

   LN in town

   Mel,

   I went to the LN event today.  I got there for the opening at noon and stayed til almost 5:00.  I watched some demos and tried out nearly all the tools as well as the Felders, Hammers and Festools.  Interestinly enough, Jeremy Tomlinson, a LN part-time employee and an acquintance of mine (he bought my old bandsaw from me) was demoing.  I never knew he worked for LN!  He knows I work for LV made jokes about "the dark side".  Anyways, I asked him about how to deal with bird's eye.  He gave us a demonstation:  toothed blade in a BU plane (bevel down is okay, but less than ideal) working with the grain as best as possible followed by a scraper plane sharpened at 45-degrees and no hook with nearly zero projection from the sole, and finally, a card scraper with a hook and a light pull stroke to remove the fuzzies.  The time he spent scraping out the lines from the toothed blade was not much more than you'd spend with a bench plane.

   Funny story:  I spent almost 5 hours playing with all the sharp tools.  When I got home, I sliced a few sliced of bread and ended up cutting myself with the serrated bread knife because I wasn't aware of where my fingers were (if it matters, I was slicing French bread on a compound angle).  I think I will sue the manufacturer of the knife for not equipping it with flesh-detecting technology.

   Dortunately, my one-handed typing is better than some poeple's two-handed typing.

10. 
    9619 | Apr 30, 2010 10:30pm | #17

    Chris,

    Sorry about the serrated knife.  You are not the only person who has done that.

    Sounds like you had fun at the LN demo.     Glad you have a friend at LN.   I believe that Tom and Rob talk every once in a while too.    (not kidding about that).       Thanks for the info from Jeremy on how to do Birds Eye Maple.   That sounds reasonable.

    Since we last spoke of this,  I spend some hours with my seven foot long birds eye board.  I worked up a lot of sweat and learned some stuff.   I sharpened up my 4 1/2,  5 1/2 and 8.    I had fun trying everything -  with the grain, cross grain, at a 45 deg with all three planes.    Then I increased the curvature on my Jack to take more off,   but I need to go farther with the curvature.  Previously I had the iron ground straight and used it as a super smoother, on the shooting board, and to joint shorter boards. 

    When I started on the board, I took a micrometer to see how deep the tearout was from the motorized planer -  as deep as 90 thousandths!    Wow.  DEEP.     After a lot of work and a lot of sweat and a good amount of learning,  I got the deepest tearouts down to about 25 thou.     Going crossgrain with a Jack with a good camber could get rid of that in short order, and i don't believe it would add any more tearout.    So far, I don't believe I have caused any tearout with my three BD planes.

    However, even with my smoother, nicely honed, I am not getting the nice shiny finish that I get on "normal" maple.      

    So I am beginning to believe that I can eliminate tearout and not pop the eyes out with my BD planes.   The problem now becomes the final "nice finish".    I have as of yet, not experience with scraper planes.   I might just be able to get away with a toothed iron for my smoother followed by a scraper plane.   

    Anyway,  the issue is the same as sharpening for me.   Before I settled on waterstones for my irons and chisels, I had to get a lot of experience with Scary Sharp and with oilsttones and waterstones, and make my own judgement.        I believe the same is true with final planing of difficult grains -  I need to try the alternatives for myself, and see what the BU and BD differences are, and the effects of a toothed blade and a scraper plane.     

    All in good time.     I have learned a bunch so far this week.    I thought my BD planes would cause a good deal of tearout.  They didn't.   That's nice to know.

    Keep me posted on this area as you hear more.    And get that hand healed.

    Have fun.

    Mel

    PS did you get my FB response on the tenon jig?

11. 
    flairwoodworks | May 01, 2010 07:59pm | #18

    Experience

    Mel,

    Morgan said that it was good that I was using a bread knife and not a cleaver.  That's silly.  A cleaver doesn't cut bread very well at all.

    I, too would have guessed that you'd have problems planing bird's eye with a bevel-down plane.  Are you using a back bevel?  Jeremy was able to smooth the board very quickly - not much longer than removing the same amount of material with a bench plane.  Are you spending a lot of time removing the tearout, aside from experimentation?

    And, yes, I got you response on the tenon jig.

12. 
    9619 | May 01, 2010 10:08pm | #19

    Chris,

    No back bevel, just a well sharpened iron in each of the three BD planes.   I did spend too much time trying to just remove wood to get past the tearout caused by the machine before I got it.    I am going to make my Jack plane's iron into a traditional Jack iron with a "proper" rounding of the iron.   That should do it.

    Mel

2. 
   flairwoodworks | Apr 28, 2010 03:38pm | #13

   About what I said

   Mel,

   To be perfectly clear, a toothed blade allows you to take a deeper cut with greater ease, as only 50% of the blade's width is cutting.  It creates evenly spaced grooves across the work and the material not removed seems to prevent tearout.

   Working the bird's eye may work, it may not.  It really depends on whether there is a grain direction to work across.  Burls, for example, don't have any specific grain direction.  Bird's eye maple should have enough of a grain direction.  When in doubt, scrape.  Or sand.

1. 
   9619 | Apr 28, 2010 05:18pm | #14

   Chris,

   I will test out a toothed blade on the plane at the LN show in June, based on your advice.  I am going to take this board with me and see what works.      It should be fun.   Sure wish there was a LV store around here.   Why don't you volunteer to open a place in Washington, DC?

   Mel

3. 
   gdblake | Apr 28, 2010 05:41pm | #15

   Thinner blade for LV scraper plane

   Mel:

   I'd go with the thinner blade for the LV scraper plane.  I like the fact that it can be bowed.  This plane is on my wish list of tools and will be one of my first purchases once I am gainfully employed again. 

   gdblake

1. 
   9619 | May 03, 2010 01:14pm | #20

   GD,

   I just had some fun this morning.   I took an old Sears #5 jack plane which is in the original box, with the original paperwork, and I put a 9 inch radius camber on the blade, and sharpened it, and put it to my piece of curly birds eye maple.   I took about five very light swipes.  THEN I STOPPED.  The tearout was terrible.   I went back to my LN 5 1/2 and increased the camber just a little from the "smoother" type camber that I had on it, and I took care of all of the tearout in not much time at all.  I AM AMAZED.   Then I went over this with my 4 1/2 smoother and the board looks very very good.  Somehow it is not as glasslike as the "normal" maple that I have used my planes on, but it is very nice.      

   Is this surprising to you?  By the way, my irons are very sharp.  That may make a bit of a difference.   I can't wait to try a smoother plane on this board, but I am now wondering what it can to  make it better.   This afternoon, I will sharpen my card scraper and see what that does.     This experimentation is a lot of fun.   Especially because some of what I am finding is not what I have expected.

   Mel

1. 
   flairwoodworks | May 03, 2010 09:09pm | #22

   Terrible tearout to none at all?

   Mel,

   Your results surprise me.  But I have never used a Sears plane.  In your test, aside from the plane and iron, was all else equal - the depth of cut, the mouth opening, and so forth?  What caused the difference?  Chatter?

2. 
   9619 | May 03, 2010 02:58pm | #21

   the card scraper worked its magic

   GD,

   I sharpened up the card scraper and went to work on the curly birds eye board and it came out slick.    Of course, using a card scraper on a board that big is a bit of a chore, so a scraper plane may be in the works.   From my little experience on this board, the BD planes and a scraper do the job, and I have never had a more difficult board.     

   Mel

4. 
   9619 | May 03, 2010 09:32pm | #23

   Chris,

   Maybe I wasn't clear.  I put a big camber on the Sears Jack plane.   a 9 inch radius.  That is a large rounding.  I adjusted it to take a small shaving, but it had bad tearout.    The blade was sharpened on the same stones in the same way as the other planes.

   I went to the LN 5 1/2 with just a bit more camber than a smoother, and it got no tearout, but the surface was not glassy.  I used the LN 4 1/2 and it got a little better, but still not glassy.   So I got my card scraper out, and the finish is glassy.

   This was not an emperical study using 1000 pieces of wood and three thousand planes by Chris Gonchour.   I merely sharpened my planes as stated above, and used them.     You would be very happy with the finish i got with a card scraper.  after getting close with the Jack and the Smoother.

   I havent tried a low angle smoother or a low angle Jack, or a scraper plane,  or a toothed blade.   One could go broke buying all of those, so I wil attempt to borrow a few of them on the board and see what I can find.  i will  let you know when I get a chance to go that.   If not before, then at the Lie Nielsen show in June, it will be possible.  Of course, to be fair, I'd like to try the Lee Valleys too.   Maybe I can invite Rob and Tom over for dinner some night.   :-)

   Mel