Thanks to a recent home renovation, I’ve finally been able set up a long dreamed of woodshop complete with the standard scary-powerful power tools. I’d like to invite a woodworking friend of mine to use the shop once in a while, but I’m concerned about what liability I might be exposing myself to and how I might limit my exposure. BTW, I do have a standard homeowner’s umbrella liability policy.
Anyone have any experiences or advice?
Replies
Call your insurance agent.
This probably isn't very helpful , but my advice is to find some friends that you aren't afraid would sue you if THEY hurt THEMSELVES.
Edited 8/29/2006 3:37 pm ET by PCWoodworks
Problem is more complicated since the friend may not be the one making the decision. The friend's insurance may insist that you, or your insurance, pick up the medical tab, so that the friend, even with best intentions, would have no real choice. Of course, that's people carry liability insurance.
I have followed the same procedures that my old college student wood shop used. I give them a handout that explains safety in the shop, I give them a short course in how to use each machine, and I make them sign a waiver. Otherwise, they are simply not permitted to use the machines. I don't do this for hand tool use, or something as benign as a cordless drill, but if they want to use the table saw, jointer, etc, its the only way to be sure your protected legally. A true friend would understand, and an acquaintance has not right to complain.
Todd
Sorry, Todd, you're still pretty "exposed." First of all, if someone gets injured on your property, their health insurance company can go after you. Every time I go to the physical therapist, or like last year had surgery on my knee, the "subrogation department" for Blue Shield sends a form to find out if I got hurt somewhere that enables them to get out from under the bill. Auto accident? Work? or someone else's property... Bingo
But what really seems iffy about your process is that you are the one giving safety and how-to instructions/direction. So, if they hurt themselves, one way or another, they could (if they were jerks) make it come back to you. That process might work for a college, but as an individual I would stay away from it.
When it comes right down to it, it's almost impossible to make yourself immune to a suit. There's only 1 person allowed to use my stationary power tools, the guy who went in with me to buy a jointer. He's worked in a cabinetmaking shop, has oooodles of experience, and can be trusted more than most. Anything past that is a crapshoot.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 8/29/2006 10:45 pm by forestgirl
Forestgirl,
"Sorry, Todd, you're still pretty "exposed." First of all, if someone gets injured on your property, their health insurance company can go after you. Every time I go to the physical therapist, or like last year had surgery on my knee, the "subrogation department" for Blue Shield sends a form to find out if I got hurt somewhere that enables them to get out from under the bill. Auto accident? Work? or someone else's property... Bingo"Well yes. You are right. Anyone can sue you at any time for any reason. Just because I give a lesson, a handout, and make someone sign a waver, doesn't prevent an insurance company from suing me. However, I believe I have taken above average measures to protect my guests from injury and myself from liability"But what really seems iffy about your process is that you are the one giving safety and how-to instructions/direction. So, if they hurt themselves, one way or another, they could (if they were jerks) make it come back to you. That process might work for a college, but as an individual I would stay away from it."There are not certification requirements for giving a safety lesson on woodworking tools. If we were talking about CPR, then you would have a point. I am fully qualified to explain the hazards of my machines, and the lesson is one of 3 methods to explain safety and not the sole source."When it comes right down to it, it's almost impossible to make yourself immune to a suit. There's only 1 person allowed to use my stationary power tools, the guy who went in with me to buy a jointer. He's worked in a cabinetmaking shop, has oooodles of experience, and can be trusted more than most. Anything past that is a crapshoot."Crapshoot, is a little strong. but you are stating to obvious. Immunity from law suits is unattainable, but you must take reasonable steps to protect yourself, and I believe I have taken steps above and beyond the reasonable standard. Your approach provides the most protection, and the least flexibility.
Todd
Ahhhhh. "I have taken above average measures to protect ... myself from liability" is more accurate than your ealier statement "its the only way to be sure your protected legally." I don't argue that your approach is without merit.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Boss Crunk said it all.
Cadiddlehopper
With the possible exception of get it in writing on the ins. co. letterhead!
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
That is a copy of the poicy.Cadiddlehopper
My policy seemed a bit ambiguous so I called my agent, he said I was covered but I had him put it in writing anyway. Covering my butt with both hands.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
"...he said I was covered but I had him put it in writing anyway." You are a very wise man.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Sort of on/sort of off the subject. Those of you who work a woodworking business out of your home and haven't told the insurance company of that..... you may find out that you are not covered, for anything, if something goes awry. And those of you who aren't sure if you've told the insurance company, just look at your premium, it will tell you...... if it's in the stratosphere, you're covered. When I had a business shop at home I could find only one company that would write a policy. If I had the same exact machinery and was a hobbiest, then they all wanted me.
If you are a hobby woodworker then your home owners policy for liability should cover you adequately. If you are anything but a hobby shop then you would not be covered for anyone that is not an employee. Schools would be the exception here.
Although I've been known to loan out a belt sander or even a chain saw to friends, I don't usually let someone into my shop to work on their own. I've run stock through the plainer for friends while they are there helping and I've made some jigs with a coworker but we worked as a team, with me taking on the table saw duties. A friend that had a shop and got rid of it came over to use the drill press for a few hours, but that is a rather benign tool. I do projects with my son-in-laws, but I do all the serious stuff where there is potential danger. They are not woodworkers and don't have any training other than what they get from me. When it comes to the jointer or table saw I simply tell them I don't want the father of my grand kids or the husband of my daughters to be short a finger, they seem to accept that as the shop rule for now.
My shop has always been more or less off limits. With a few exceptions, like the captian of a ship, I'm the one at the helm (running the tools). I don't mind helping someone out, but if they are not an experienced woodworker they are not going to operate my large power tools, the risk is too high for both of us.
Thank you all for your comments! Lots to think about. Here’s what I learned from my lawyer (mind you he’s my business lawyer, not a personal liability specialist) and my insurance company (Amica).As long as I am using the shop only as a hobby and any guest that uses it is doing the same, then my standard homeowner’s and umbrella liability policies would take effect should that guest be hurt *and* should that guest sue *and* I should I be found negligent in some way that directly contributed to the accident. It seems, short of negligence, I (and my insurance company) could not be held responsible financially or otherwise for an injury to a guest, whether it’s in my shop or anywhere else on my property.What I didn’t think to ask was: if someone sues, even if they loose, am I still out the legal fees? In any case, given the financial liability issue is more or less covered, for me the rest comes down to good sense. I just can’t see letting someone without serious training/experience have at my tools, and I can’t see letting anyone in the shop without me being right there (mostly for safety but also because I have everything tuned within an inch of its life and want it to stay that way). And, if I’m not willing to stop someone from doing something I think is unsafe – even if the person is more experienced than I am – then I have no business having them in my shop. I think MRGreer’s captain of the ship analogy is exactly right.
Wolfenbear - as to the question you forgot to ask about attorneys fees- in general, if you have insurance, the insurance co will find the lawyer to represent you and they will pay for the lawyer, not you. In Britan, if you sue someone and lose, you have to pay the other sides attorneys fees. In most cases, in the US each side pays their own attorneys fees regardless of who wins or loses. I think you have received some sound advice above - a) make sure you have some insurance, and regardless of your insurance coverage, since I am sure you would feel awful if someone got hurt in your shop using your tools: b) try to exercise " reasonable" care - if it looks like someone has no idea what he is doing, don't let him near anything - whether power or hand tool. If your buddy has worked with table saws for 10 years and he seems careful, you can give him a lot more leeway, c) while a safety lecture is probably a good idea, the most important thing is to let them know about anything that is unusual ( "I set it up so that router comes on automatically anytime I press this small, unmarked knob ... " ) d) insist that they bring, unless you have spares, their own safety googles and any other safety equipment they need. Good Luck
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