This handwork is slow! I use the excuse that I lack the correct large Wenzloff ripsaw so I have to use the bandsaw now and then. Here it is cutting stopped chamfers off the inside corners of the hayrake table’s legs, where the hayrake arms will be M&T’d to the legs.
Now, I vaguely remember a Knots post in which someone asked what a bullnose plane was good for. Answer: cleaning the BS (or Wenzloff if you have one) saw marks off large stopped chamfers.
Then off with its nose:
Note the pencil marks indicating where the chamfer will transit via a lamb’s tongue into the right ange corner.
Meanwhile the M&Ts are being cut. What an age it takes by hand! Also, there is the dreaded “cant” to avoid, which means very careful sawing and chisel-chops. Even so, the loosely-joined hayrake assembly has one misalignment that will need some joint-fiddlin’ to get rid of.
Clamped for sawing.
Marked with a (Blue Spruce) knife and a Tite-mark guage, with some pencil fill-in to make the lines more visible.
Saw as close to the line on the waste side as possible, to avoid loads of later shoulder-planing. A Wenzloff or similar quality tenon saw makes this possible even for a cack-hand like me. Straight cutting, even kerf.
Mortises too are handtool-made. I can’t say I enjoy chopping more than a couple and the through ones need a lot of accurate marking and double-checking to ensure they can be cut from both sides and meet accurately in the middle. It’s a lot easier, quicker and more accurate with a router! But then the piece wouldn’t have that (slightly wonky) handmade look. 🙂
The bracing pieces at the hayrake end are curved so that I can avoid having to do 45 degree M&Ts. Also, they look better than just a straight brace. But the curve means a housing joint is also needed.
Eventually all the M&Ts are done and the hayrake is getting ready for glue up. It needs only the wedges for the through tenons making and the arms slimming down to sit inside the leg-chamfer edges.
The thick arms will be slimmed down to the shape in the drawing; and the arms through-dowelled to the central beam. The edges will all be stop-chamfered with a spokeshave and have lamb’s tongue transitions from chamfers through the corners next-the-joints .
Mortise end widened to allow wedge-spreading of the tenon (still to be cut for the wedges). The wedge shape goes only halfway down the mortise, so the tenon-end will form a sort of dovetail inside the mortise, once it’s wedged.
After hayrake glue up I’ll be spending some hours (many, many) carving the diamonds on the outside corner-chamfers of the legs and on the tabletop edges. Then it’ll be the frame & panel aprons. Should be finished by 2014. 🙂
Lataxe
Edited 2/26/2009 10:45 am ET by Lataxe
Replies
David,
I enjoyed your photos and writeup on making the Haymaker table. This type of writeup is the most valuable on Knots. I get more out of seeing the work that woodworkers do -- as a work in progress. It gives insight into the soul of the woodworker. I could care less about the particular style or tools involved. I enjoy seeing how a woodworker approaches the task at hand and the tools and methods he selects. The variety of approaches is what gives spice to this passtime. There is no right or wrong (unless it is unsafe). Your eclectic approach to hand and power tools is much like my own.
I hope that you soon start posting video clops of you doing your work.
Thanks for a great post. Can't wait for the next installment.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Your commentary has reaffirmed my plan to do one of these -- in pine. ;-)
And without the carving! ;-) ;-)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Mike,
"Your commentary has reaffirmed my plan to do one of these -- in pine. ;-)And without the carving! ;-) ;-)"Funny, I want to do the carving without the table.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hmm. Sounds like a match!
I'll make the table & you can carve away on it! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Sir David, THANK YOU very much. Just fascinating.
Patrick, hoping to someday be worthy . . .
Ah,EXCITING TIMES!
Looks great, David, and there is a real-time feel about your description.
A rattling good post.I agree with Mel,this is [to me also] the heart of Knots,and it makes me eager to'get on with it',even tho' at my elementary stage.
I too,look forward to the next instalment.
Robin, also thinking of those genooine hand done M&T's.
PS. Is Mel wanting video of your work filmed from horseback,perhaps whilst doing a slow pass by the door,do you think? :-)
R
Edited 2/27/2009 12:07 am ET by shakychisel
Robin,
Jenoo-ine hand-done M&Ts, eh!? I admit to finding them hard to get as precise as I'd like. It may be a case of lack of the right tool. (Awaits Mel standard diatribe agin' tool-based talk, inherited from Charlie).
I've got good at sawing the tenons without lumpy shoulders sporting saw-kerf overcuts. Also, I learnt to mark the tenon tongues a tad oversize so I can saw down the knife line rather than just to the waste side. This does produce an even tenon as the knife line (scored quite deep) seems to guide the saw a little. However.....
I have to be very careful not to introduce a twist to the tenon tongue if and when I pare it down to exact-fit, with the shoulder plane, chisel or file. I now make pencil marks on the tenon tongue so material gets removed evenly. This is where another tool, one I don't have, might be useful - a router-plane. Sean (Samson) mentioned in one of his posts, as did Derek Cohen, that the router plane both sizes a tenon accurately and keeps it's face flat and at 90 degrees to the shoulder, as an inherent outcome of the tool's way of working.
But the hardest part of the handcut M&T to keep square is the mortise 'ole, as the mortise chisel is wapped freehand and this can cause a slight cant to the mortise wall if one is not careful. I now start the mortise with the mortise chisel agin' a guide block, as once it gets a little way in it will stay straight if it started straight.
I've also taken to making a tenon tongue a tad wider than the width of the mortise chisel. This means I can use a flat chisel to straighten out any slight cant in the mortise walls should I make that error. The mortise hole is widened to match the thick tenon-tongue but straightened at the same time. This also means I can clean up any slight gouge-marks left in the mortise wall by the corners of the mortise chisel.
******
All this takes a lot of time. There are ten M&Ts in the hayrake and legs, 6 through and 4 blind. I reckone each M&T is taking a couple of hours - 20 hours in all! Maybe more if the marking-out is included. I could do the lot on a woodrat in around 1 hour including set up time, which also requires no marking out. And the M&Ts produced would be inherently more accurate. Mind, one does have to spent a couple of minutes squaring the round end of the mortise holes (but it is just a couple of minutes per mortise).
However, the woodrat M&Ts lack that "slight wonk" from hand cutting M&Ts, which does manifest as a hand-made look in the final piece. The issue is that the dividing line between this desirable "slight wonk" and an incompetant "badly made" is too easily crossed.
Perhaps if one did hundreds of M&Ts the accuracy would improve dramatically and the time taken would be cut by a quarter or more. This is true of dovetailing by hand, each one of which takes far less time (even as a novice) than does an M&T. I did 500+ on a set of drawers in a week and became competant.
But as an amateur woodworker I will never make that many M&Ts. Perhaps this is why some olde worlde apprenticeships were so long - a year's worth of doing nothing but M&Ts is going to mean you get very good at it, I imagine.
Lataxe, looking forward to some diamond-carving as light relief.
Lataxe,
I kin loan ye me Stanley #78 if ya want it, to hep ye with yur teenons. Just make sure yer knicker's sharp!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/27/2009 6:09 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
"But the hardest part of the handcut M&T to keep square is the mortise 'ole, as the mortise chisel is wapped freehand and this can cause a slight cant to the mortise wall if one is not careful."
I hate mortise chisels. Well, to be more precise, I hate MY mortise chisels. Mine are the square-sided jobs and tend to twist and bind in the hole, making a mess of the job if the mortise is deeper than maybe a half an inch. Perhaps those pig-sticker type chisels would solve this problem? (I went to the Web in a weak moment a few months ago to splurge on a couple of Ray Iles chisels, but they were out of stock. So, alas, I still have no personal experience upon which to compare the two styles.)
So, if I don't want to haul out the mortiser and kill a few electrons, I usually drill, and slick the sides. I'm far more successful keeping things straight that way. I learned this technique from an old carpenter who tought WW-ing in the shop where I used to teach back in my "yoot". He'd pull down an old beam drill to rough-bore the joint, and then pare it to perfect dimension with a sharp chisel in about two minutes flat. I find it's a lot easier to accurately pare just the final bit than to try to keep the mortise chisel laser straight in a three-inch deep joint while beating on it with a three-pound mallet.
As a bit of an aside, and to revisit a fond memory of mine, that same old carpenter (sadly, I forget his name, but let's call him "Bill") used to co-teach in the shop with an even older carpenter, "Sam", who had recently passed away. (Which is how I came to be there.) As skilled as Bill was, he would speak of his departed buddy's skills with such reverence I could only imagine how good Sam must have been. One time, when demonstrating mortising to the class, he reached up onto a tool shelf on one wall of the shop and, from among the collection of antique moulding planes (which, amazingly, we still used), pulled down a sample mortise made by Sam as a demonstration for a prior class. If fit together like it was a piston in a cylinder. Perfect. The sides of the mortise and the tennon were smooth as glass. I was duly impressed!
Then, on closer examination, I noticed that the mortise was not perfectly square, but was maybe 3 - 4° out. The tennon had been fashioned to exactly offset this error so the joint was a perfect 90° and flat, and the shoulders fit exactly. "Impressed" no longer described my awe at the skill Sam must have had. I still have no clue how someone could accomplish joinery like that with the meager handtools that were available in that shop. Every time I get to feeling smug about my skills, I just remember that sample joint and realize what a rank beginner I truly am. Heck, that joint was better than I can make even with the amazing electric mortiser!
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
"I hate MY mortise chisels. Mine are the square-sided jobs and tend to twist and bind in the hole".
I have two-cherries which, apart from the varnish gloop they clag all over them, are well-made and seem to work well. They have a trapezoid shape rather than being square, and this does seem to prevent any sticking down the 'ole. It also seems to keep them properly lined up in the 'ole once it has been dug into the wood a bit.
Those Ray Iles are tempting but I don't think I'm going to be doing all that many hand made M&Ts in future; the cherries will suffice for any as I do make thataway.
"I usually drill, and slick the sides".
I too have used this method which works well but used a drill press. As I've been experimenting with "hand tool only" it's been forbidden - but just for the purpose of my play-investigation. Perhaps you have been drilling with a brace & bit though? :-)
I have used a router to do the same thing - in the woodrat or with the work piece clamped in the vise and straddled by the router with two fences mounted on extra-long fence arms. This is the same as the drillpress method except you only have to "slick" the ends of the 'ole square with a chisel, not the faces.
"Then, on closer examination, I noticed that the mortise was not perfectly square, but was maybe 3 - 4° out. The tennon had been fashioned to exactly offset this error so the joint was a perfect 90° and flat, and the shoulders fit exactly".
Well, you should be impressed with a-one o' my M&Ts then, which exhibits something of this syndrome. This is the M&T that probably took four hours to do (two for the fixing after the two for the bad-making) and actually still has that "slight wonk" (but is better than" a wonky mess"). :-) I imagine Sam made his in about four minutes and avoided wonk altogther.
***
The things are hard to do and I just can't afford that 5 year apprenticeship. After all, I yam 60 tomorrow so only have another 60 years to get down a very long list of "stuff not yet attempted but should be". This includes surfing that 40 footer at Outside Log Cabins, as well as a bit of novel woodwork. Where does time go?
Lataxe, nearly an official ole gimmer.
Yep. When I'm in the mood to avoid plugging in, I do indeed use the brace. Tho' I wish I had one of these like was in the old shop:
View Image
BTW -- Happy Birthday! I'll raise a glass for ya. (I'm not that far behind you, so I'll expect reciprocity in the near future!)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Beam drill! I think my grandpa had something like that! As in I am sure he did but his was made of iron! I have something like that but it was used to cut out lock holes in doors. Never worked worth a hoot....
Hi Will ,
Those old beam drills are very cool . I know when doing a Timber Frame structure these were and are used .
The idea being , you took the tool to the timber , much less work then moving the beam.
dusty
Dusty & Will,
How about these? I believe they woud do them hayrake mortises in 3 minutes 34 seconds.
View Image
View Image
View Image
Lataxe, Mafell admirer.
Those are cool tools -- I've always admired them. Only problem is, I don't have an extra $7,500 (just for those pictured -- they have a wide selection of goodies not shown) in my toy, er, tool fund at present! ;-(
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Dear Lataxe,
Your posts here detailing your travails in cutting mortises and tenons left me with so much on my mind that I hesitate to post a reply of my own in response, for fear of having to ask Mel to distill it to a manageable length.
So, you are cutting tenons oversize, and mortises undersize, in huge oaken timbers, then paring them both to fit one another. All this, hours of work in your own words, to avoid spending the hours of work you fear it would take to develop the requisite skill to cut a joint that fits right off the bat.
It reminds me of the geeky 14 yr old still pedaling along, all elbows and knees, down the sidewalk with his 16" bike on its training wheels, all the while saying, "I'll fall!" to those who would have him move up to a 26" tenspeed. That sounded more harsh than I intended. But I'll stand by the analogy.
Sure, you'll fall (below your self imposed standards of quality.) You might skin a knuckle, or sustain a bruise (to your self esteem). There is a slight risk of breaking something (a tenon or a mortise cheek). But how else will you ever feel the wind in your face?
There is a book making the rounds now ( the name escapes me) which has proposed that, to master a skill set requires the investment of 10,000 hours of practice. I keep hearing this quoted, for example, as gospel on how to master a musical instrument. I've heard that, to learn a complex motor skill, like, oh, using a foot clutch, and hand shifter, and steering a motorcycle while doing it , one must repeat 3 times a day for 9 days running.
Of course none of this matters to you, perhaps, as you have no ladywife and small bairns awaiting the completion of the hayrake(r) to finance next weeks suppers and the rent for your little cot. No need, really for you to desire a more direct path to completion, as it is the journey that is being savoured, and not the destination. And yet... and yet, is the path you've chosen, really taking you through the gardens you wanted to see? Are you wallowing in the ditch of self indulgence, amongst weeds of parings and shavings, when you know there's a primrose path, cut level and chiselled straight, to be attained with a bit of application, at the top of yon steep hill, which we call "practice"?
Can I hear an "amen", brothers?
Ray
ps so far, that hayrake-r (I know Richard, I know) looks not a bit wonky yet. I am taken by the form of that stretcher, but wonder whether its benefits to the table-sitter justify the complexity of its construction.
Ah Ray,
The thing is - it's play!
I could spend the many hours (10,000 or otherwie) practicing M&Ts by hand. I would get better. I have got better doing even the maybe 70 -90 I've made so far). But it seems to be a choice between:
* Be confident and risk cocking up a few. Spend a long time fixing that few or throw them away and start a new one. Here there is the difficulty of wasting wood. M&Ts are often in large work pieces. I have to scavenge my timber and there is no client to absorb the cost of buying replacements for the cock-ups.
* Go carefuly but slow, which can get a bit tedious but does result in no waste and also lessons going in rather better perhaps.
At bottom, I chose the latter path because I'm an amateur.
*****
The hayrake is superfluous to the strength and function of the table, except it does provide a sort of undershelf. Again, it's made as play and for hand tool practice, as well as to meet a certain style and mode that I enjoy the look of. Yes - it's A&C frou-frou!
Lataxe, M&T plodder.
Lataxe,
I was seeing the rake-design as a means to have the re-inforcement of a stretcher without the inconvenience of stubbing one's toes against (or having to place feet on top of) the thing while sitting at the table, which one does with the square or the "H" design. Tho it is elaborate, I can't think off the top of my head of a simpler way to achieve that "Y" joinery so it won't be inclined to sag. An "X" stretcher, mayhaps?
Now if you was to hang some gadroons in festoons all along the lower edges of it, and drape the top and sides with acanthi..-- acanthuses..-- acanth...----leaves, why then you'd have yourself some serious frou.
Ray
Ray,
On a dining table or library table the hayrake is, as you describe, a good stretcher for avoiding foot-fouling of the furniture. My wee table is only a tall coffee table and there will be no feet going under it except for cat paw, as the little rascal tries to hide under there to avoid the fluff-comb, which he detests.
Gadrooned rake?..... no, no, not this time. The carved diamonds on the edges and lamb's tongue transitions of the chamfers are about my level of frou-ability. Also, the cat would merely chew real frou off, even though he does only have one of his original four pointy-fangs left (ole snaggle-toof, a poor example of the ilk). He may lack teef but he has good taste in furnishings. :-)
****
Of course, there is a walnut coffee table to be made that will have some rather two-dimensional leafs carved on it here and there. I'm going to innoculate myself with anti-frou-frou juice before I make that, in case I catch the terrible meme and start thinking about manufacturing bollocks being clasped by talons or bunches of grapes dangling down the table leg.
I fear the scuttle leg most of all, as you know. Around here, a scuttle-legger would definitely be possesed by a witch and sent to do me unspeakable harm whilst I slept. Gallows Gate is full of the ghosts of hung witches, one of which may have possesed the cat.
Lataxe, who thinks he just heard a moan in the attic.
Lataxe ,
" It's play ' That my man is the key to your progress in terms of your attitude . You enjoy and live for the shavings and square holes .
If only we could can and sell your zeal and enthusiasm.
As a not for profit maker you live to make not the opposite , you can , therefore you do .I do long for the ability to only make what I want , not clients desires only .
As far as messing up a few parts now and then , I understand the value of materials in short supply .
I think what you speak of is what I considered the lessons of most value , actual mistakes , miscuts , other more horrific thangs as well .Learning to take care of the problem in a way that you can still get the job done .
HB D
" how good we are is how good we fix our mistakes"
dusty, making square holes , why ?
Lord L., first,
Please accept my heartiest congratulations on the eve of your achieving the official description as an Old Chap!
I must also tell you,welcome to this veneri......venerable Club.I am able to do this as I have been a member of said Club for some time now.I just wish my facility wif me tools reflected the wealth of experience I've gathered along the way!
Anyroadup,as someone says in these columnmnns, A very happy birthday,and I wish you your next 40 or so as returns,and the rude good health to enjoy them.[keep the screen out of the ladywife's sight line,I'm thinking..just for the moment].
You reckon YOU have trouble in getting your cuts precise! All I can say is that I'm grateful that all those M&T's I've done so far have been of the non-thru variety.It is amazing how a little undercutting of the shoulder covers a fair number of indiscretions,when it comes to puttin' it together!
I like your idea of heavy knife lines,it is in these areas I seem to have trouble,necessitating much slow & careful fiddlin' abart wif shoulder planes,parin' chisels 'n such,but as you correctly point out, it only needs some repetition to get it right.[ Now,if you stop people lookin' over your shoulder so they can't see it, I admit to using me TS for this task,usually,and me mortise chiselly drill thingy to do the mating 'oles,as I 'ave strife also cleaning up mortise sides wifart a guide block.Same as me DT's..and that's the wooden variety,not the Eau de Vie sort,before ye go runnin' away wif fancy ideas!]
I DO feel a twinge of guilt in admitting to no thru mortises yet,but starting wif me bench top,that'll be the end of that,I guess.
Thanks for the update,and very best wishes again for tomorrow,
Robin,wistfully remembering my coming of old chap-ness.
Nice write up! Thanks for all the pics. Thats a complicated piece. I look forward to the pictures of the finished product.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled