Replies

1. 
   milanuk | Apr 09, 2004 05:23pm | #1

   Can't speak to the Delta, but as far as the Ryobi... assuming you are talkin about the BT3100... head on over to http://www.bt3central.com, and check out the forums there for some opinions (obviously biased) about that saw. As far as the fences... don't put too much stock in what you see in the display models in Lowes or HD. They are notorious for having been poorly assembled and then subsequently abused by customers.

   About the dado... the reason most people w/ the Ryobi BT3100 go w/ a 6" vs an 8" dado stack (normal sized in all other aspects) is because of the dust collection shround around the blade. If you enjoy spewing dust everywhere, then don't worry about it. But in all honesty: how often do you plan on cutting dadoes with the table saw that you are going to need the extra height from the 8" stack? Answer: probably almost never, or so seldom that it's not worth bothering over.

   Most of the small benchtop saws are kind of marginal. Definitely have to watch what you are doing w/ them, and take some care, but you can do some decent work w/ about anything if you really want to. And as far as the $$$, well, for under $100, I'd be tempted to. I got my BT3100 for ~$215 w/ the discounts in effect at the time, so I figured if it didn't pan out I wasn't out too much ;)

   HTH,

   Monte

1. 
   DB | Apr 09, 2004 09:56pm | #10

   milanuk, thanks for the reply.  The Ryobi I was referring to was actually not the BT3100, but the smaller table saw that goes for about $100.  I don't spend much time at Home Depot and had not really seen/heard anything about BT3100 (I'm a novice, obviously).  I couldn't get dimensions/size from Ryobi's web site - is that something that would fit well in a garage workshop? 

1. 
   PlaneWood | Apr 09, 2004 10:15pm | #13

   Ok, here's another thought.

   You already have a miter saw, you can do most crosscuts with that.

   With a mediocre band saw and a 6" jointer, you can do all the ripping and edge jointing/cleanup.

   I gave my TS to my son over a year ago and haven't missed it one bit.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood

2. 
   MarkinNY | Apr 09, 2004 10:23pm | #14

   My woodworking curve followed a similar arc.  I am a lawyer and I started woodworking the same way you did:  by telling my wife I could do better than what the store was selling at an inflated price.  I bought the cheapest Delta table saw they made.  After a few years, and after building a couple of rooms of basic but sturdy childrens furniture, etc, etc, I knew that I would not be giving up woodworking, and I bought the Ryobi BT3100 for $300 before making the big move to building downstairs furniture.  I moved the Delta from the basement to the garage, and I still use it when I am working on outside projects, and it and it still cuts straight enough.  You just have to make alot of test cuts on scap first, before making a real cut on the project wood.

   I don't know how you ended up with so many other fancy tools before getting a table saw, because I would have thought that by now you would have needed a table saw more than some of the other stuff.  In any event, based upon your output so far, I think that you deserve a little better than the cheapest Sears model, and if you go to http://www.bt3central.com, I think you will understand why so many weekend warriors go with the BT3100.  I don't think the BT3100 has the power or solidity that the professionals and the perfectionist types on this board need, but I do think that it gives far more bang for the buck for hobbyists than you will find elsewhere.  I also don't think it is a big saw -- there are pictures on the BT3central website, but you should drive over to HD and see.

   If you have already blown your wad on other tools, however, your punishment is to suffer the humiliation of owning a cheapo Sears Crapsman for a while.  Life could be worse. ;)

1. 
   DB | Apr 09, 2004 10:55pm | #15

   Mark - thanks for the comments (and to everyone else).  To answer your question on how I've wound up with some other nice tools before getting a table saw, I guess I've just bought the tools as I have needed them and in that order.  For example, I got the compound miter saw for building a fence - I had to chop 140 12' 1x4's down to 4' - would have taken too long with the circular saw.  I got the router set for building shelves in my kitchen - I wanted a rounded edge with a roman ogee finish - tacking on trim wouldn't have worked - and my wife wanted a dish groove for displaying dishes - hence, I needed a router and like I said, I don't like to buy crappy stuff.  I certainly could've used a table saw previously, but I've gotten by with using my circular saw and a good straight edge to make my rip cuts.  But this is time consuming and only works well on wide stock - I can see the need for making thin rip cuts on some upcoming projects and could really use the table saw - hence, getting tools as I need them.  Sounds like I need to get to Home Depot to check out the BT3100.  After the comments I'm getting back, I think I'm going to hate that Craftsman saw and resent wasting the $100 bucks on it - just hope it doesn't hurt the wife's feelings too bad!

1. 
   milanuk | Apr 10, 2004 03:11am | #18

   Well, like I mentioned earlier, don't put *too* much stock in how well the display models at HD work. As much as I like the BT3100, it is *not* a contractor saw, i.e. not meant to be picked up by two husky fellows and slung in the back of a truck and hauled from job site to job site. You can do that, and it'd probably still work for framing, but you'd likely be a bit disappointed when it comes to finish work afterwards. Same goes for about any saw, really. Just remember the saw you see is most likely put together by someone w/ no real interest in the saw itself, making low wages, and then set out for everybody and their kids to play w/ the neat slidy things ;) You may have to use you imagination a tad to visualize how the thing will work once a little effort is put into it.

   As far as cost... I waited until a local HD finally opened, and then btwn the 10% discount for opening a HD account and 20% off the initial weekend (which I've heard recurs occasionally), I walked out the door w/ mine for a little over $216. Figured I can take my chances for that much. Heck, it's worth more than that on e-Bay as parts ;)

   Also, you can often find the accessory kits that HD sells for the saws for $99 for much less on the 'Net. Usually something where the boxes sustained some sort of cosmetic damage, but the internal parts are fine. Got mine for about $45 off of e-bay, IIRC.

   Again, check out bt3central.com. They'll welcome you w/ open arms and answer all the questions you can think of.

   Monte

2. 
   301 | Apr 10, 2004 03:35am | #19

   I have the Bosch 4000 and think it is worth every penny I paid for it.  If you do get it go ahead and buy the outfeed tables, they do make a difference.  Tool Crib has a great price and service.  I replaced a big (expensive) Delta with my Bosch and have never looked back.  Expensive does not always mean better but I would not invest even $98 on a table saw, no matter who made it.  As far as Ryobi goes have you seen this Ebay auction yet?

   http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2389286139&category=207

3. 
   DB | Apr 12, 2004 04:11pm | #25

   el papa,

   Thanks for the reply.  I did see that ebay auction a week or two ago and thought it was absolutely hilarious.  As a general rule I have stayed away from Ryobi but after reading up on the BT3100 at btcentral.com and see the huge following, I've decided to give it a shot.  Looks like its a much better (tried and tested) product than that router table!  The BT3100 was a nice medium between the Bosch and the Crapsman.  If I don't like the BT3100, I can always take it back but I'm doubting that I'll have issues with it.

   Thanks to everyone for their great advice and commentary!

4. 
   301 | Apr 12, 2004 09:39pm | #28

   I wish Ryobi would see the following their little table saw has gotten and apply the same quality and advanced design to the rest of their line.  Everybody would benefit.  I have owned 3 Ryobi tools (2 were gifts) and had to return or dispose of all of them because they were such junk.  The prices and features are so attractive, too bad they didn't work as advertised.

   Concerning aquireing new tools:  Try getting medium priced tools with an eye towards upgrading later on if you need to.  I have done this exclusively over the past 5 years.  I get something and either grow to love or hate it.  Then I can sell it later on (classified ads) and move on to what I really need.  The people who buy my used tools genuinely appreciate getting a used tool at a substantially lower price, there is a market for used equipment.

5. 
   ian | Apr 10, 2004 04:52pm | #22

   You could always go this route for a few years http://www.tritonwoodworking.com/

   I used one for a couple of years teamed with an 9-1/4 saw.  Had to buy the saw stabiliser to support the weight of my 35 year old circ saw but after aligning it and putting a good blade 60 tooth blade on the saw it cut everything I threw at it as well as a "proper" table saw. 

   Ian

3. 
   RANGERP75R | Apr 10, 2004 05:51pm | #24

   DB

      My first saw was a Shop-Mate circular mounted under a piece of 2' x 4' ply with a rectangular slot cut for the blade. That was good to go for the first two years. Got a Craftsman cntractor in late 74'. Moved to a Delta contractor in 84' or 85' ?

     Replaced that with a TS I bought being scraped in a yard sale for $125. Did a little custom work on it and it has been used since. It will do everything a Uni-saw will do with the exception of 2" plus ripping which I do on a neighbor's PM 66. It will do the 2" with the proper blade but I don't push it since most of my stock is 4/4 or 6/4 (1" to 1 1/2").

      You have capability of cross-cut on your Dewalt. All you need is ripping capability. You don't have to have the top of the line saw to do that as witnessed by what has been accomplished by many before you. You do need a decent saw, a willingness to succeed keeping safety in mind and a lot of determination. Imagination is a plus as it can turn a bad saw into a decent saw.

     That old "junk-saw" I bought in a yard sale an modified is a Ryobi BT3000 and if you offered me $600 for it or a brand new Delta contractor the answer would be, "no thank you, what I got is fine"! There's nothing I can't do with it and more that a $500 plus contractor saw can. 

   Good luck...

   sarge..jtProud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

2. 
   BobSmalser | Apr 09, 2004 05:34pm | #2

   I've got an inexpensive Ridgid 10" contractor's saw on their wheeled stand that lives outdoors...bought it a couple years ago because it's plastic and it rains all winter here in WA.

   Anyway....I recommend the saw....easy to true everything up square and it stays square.   Add a Freud blade and it rips heavy stock all day long without complaint.  It won't match the Unisaw for power or longevity, but it'd be a good choice for an inexpensive saw.

   http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/TS2400LS-Table-Saw/

   View Image

   “When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 4/9/2004 10:44 am ET by Bob Smalser

3. 
   Dan019 | Apr 09, 2004 05:45pm | #3

   Hi DB

   I believe you answered your own question;  "I said I'd rather have nothing than something that is crappy". The other tools you've amassed so far are pretty good so why lower your standards now? I started out with a $98 POS way back in '83, a B&D if memory serves. Never could build anything nice with it.  Got rid of it and slowly moved up the ladder until I got a unisaw, not that you need to go out and buy a unisaw. Could have saved alot of money if I had waited to buy something decent. I'm kind of in the same boat as you now in that I sold my Ryobi that I was using as a portable job site saw and was looking to upgrade. After posting over in BT the overwhelming  majority opinion was don't buy the Ridgid, buy the Bosch. There are a lot of knowledgable people over there and they convinced me that I should buy the Bosch. So I'll wait until I have the money to buy the Bosch. I don't need to keep learning the same lesson over and over again.

   IMO if you buy the Craftsman now the funds manager will not understand why you want to buy another saw in a year or so, after you're disillussioned with the one you bought.  Dan019

4. 
   DrWatson | Apr 09, 2004 06:10pm | #4

   There is an old adage that you can't save money buying cheap tools.

   That said, some expecienced woodworkers make some decent stuff with inexpensive tools.  They do have to spend more time making sure the tool is properly tuned and aligned.

   I have a Craftsman contractors style saw that I used for over 25 years, spent as much money buying it and upgrading the fence, pullies, belt, etc. as I would have spent on a cabinet saw.  But my interest in wood working has grown over that time so I couldn't imagine getting anything better in the beginning.  I now have a Grizzley cabinet saw and rarely do I have to reach for the alignment tools.  I regret not being able to see far enough ahead because I spent a lot of time fiddling with the saw before every major project.  But you know what they say about hindsight.

   Buy the best you can see yourself needing now and you will be happier using it.  After all, what we want it to enjoy woodworking, not tool tending.

   John

5. 
   PlaneWood | Apr 09, 2004 06:11pm | #5

   I once rigged up a fairly decent temporary/portable table saw by mounting my Porter Cable circular saw underneath a piece of 3/4" plywood.  Rigged up some legs for it and an on/off switch and put a descent thin kerf blade on it.  Dado'd a 3/4" groove to the left of the blade for the miter.

   I had a Rockwell 10" contractor saw at the shop and used the jury rigged table saw at the job sites.  It would do crosscuts and rips in material up to 2" thick well.  A ripping guide was done by clamping a straight board across the plywood.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
   PlaneWood

1. 
   BG | Apr 09, 2004 08:05pm | #6

   DB,

   Your story and questions sound extremely familiar.  I'll bet there is a large number of people here who could write the next chapter for you (including your spouces face and response...lol). 

   It seems to me you haven't really clarified your objectives....home construction, simple furniture or fine furniture.  Also, is this a hobby or just a way of saving money on things you need.  I started out with the objective of saving money on things I needed...and my $98 table top saw produced those things....  Somewhere along the line it became a hobby and I wanted to achieve better quality so I carved out a shop for myself and replaced the table top with a cabinet saw.  The cabinet saw produces much higher quality cuts and is very versatile.....however, to reach the fine furniture level you need to use handtools.  Ironically, once you learn handtools the cabinet saw is much less important.....not unimportant but less important.  I'll bet most of the fine furniture makers on this site would say their cabinet saw is primarily to help with boosting output....not a real factor in their quality.

   My advice to you would be figure out your motivations....and then decide on a game plan.  I will tell you that a good table saw is probably the cheapest / biggest impact item you can buy in woodworking......in other words the ROI goes dwon from there.(except for a workbench)...lol 

1. 
   DB | Apr 09, 2004 09:44pm | #9

   Well, BG, that is a good question.  The reality of my life is this:  my career requires 50-70 hours of my time per week, my wife and children deserve all other hours while they are awake, and I get a lot of things done for myself during their nap times/bed times, unless it is a big project, such as putting in a fence, etc.  I don't have the free time to do fine woodworking, although I think I would really enjoy.  I don't think i will ever be building cabinets, making drawers with dovetail joints, etc.  My realistic endeavors in woodworking will be to build things to save money while providing high quality - i.e. I need bookcases for my kids rooms but want high quality for a fraction of the price, etc.  I don't intend on doing detailed work right now or in the foreseeable future.  I guess I am doing woodworking because I enjoy it as a diversion and the end result will improve the quality of life for my family and my home. 

   So, to answer your questions, I would like a table saw for home construction/improvement and simple furniture - no "fine" furniture, I just don't the time to learn and develop the necessary skills.  Next, I would say my interest in woodworking is a combination of "hobby" and "saving money".  My guess is, not that I've caught the bug, so to speak, I'll manage to continue to find projects to work on, which is in line with being a hobby yet the projects will ultimately save me money (I would hope). 

   Thanks for everyone's responses so far - I've participated in a lot of other on-line forums and have found this to be the friendliest group out there for newbies.  That tells me a lot, actually.  It's nice to participate in discussions where egoes aren't out of control and opinions seem to be respected.

1. 
   BobSmalser | Apr 09, 2004 10:02pm | #11

   Get what you can afford now and don't fret over it.

   I work with professional finish carpenters every day who have a similar rinky-dink saw in the back of their truck and do excellent work with them.

   Concentrate on developing your skills...not having the dough for a Unisaw only means you'll delay developing those skills.

   I like fine tools, too...and own one ot two...but that cheapo Ridgid I show as a secondary TS above with Freud blade (25 bucks on Ebay) cuts as strong and true as the Unisaw...it just won't do it on as big of stock or for as long, eh?

   "It ain't the arrows....it's the archer."

   “When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.

2. 
   BG | Apr 09, 2004 10:03pm | #12

   DB,

   Yup, understand perfectly.  When I was in your circumstance I did a lot of surf fishing....$1.50 for bait..and the kids ran around on the beach at sun set.  Meanwhile SWMBO was home having a bit of down time..  At night I refinished used furniture to get the needs met...  It's also a pretty good idea to be able to hang the saw up high in the garage when your done....good luck

6. 
   CharlieD | Apr 09, 2004 08:20pm | #7

   I'm not a "you get what you pay for" kind of guy. For example, on the advice of the late ToolDoc here at Knots, I bought a Hrbor Freight lathe for less than $200 that I've been thrilled with--appears to be an exact clone of the Jet that sells for $500.

   And I understand the money/wife issue, as well as the space issue. It's a real problem, and there's no sim[ple way around it. We all have to get along.

   However, in this case, I have to say that although your wife's point is quite valid, the saw you're looking at will pretty much be a waste of $100. I started on such a saw.

   It's noisy, with its direct drive setup. the fence won't accurately square no matter what you do; if you get it truly sqaure, it'll be an accident. Distance from the blade is difficult to guage, as the measurement on the fence rail is inaccurate. The fence is not upgradable. The miter guage is also not upgradable, as it has a unique miter guage slot in an inverted T shape. The arbor is short; dados are a definite problem. I bullied Sears into trading that piece of trash in for a $500 Craftsman saw by telling them I'd never buy another Craftsman tool and I'd spread my story everywhere on the internet, and they refunded my original price toward a better saw. Now I'm not down on Sears; I think they stood up well, once properly pressured, and I'm thilled, as I said, with my current Craftsman saw. After I did this, the difference in my woodworking was nothing short of astounding: tenons were accurate, rips were free of saw marks, etc. etc.

   I recommend that you wait for the Bosch. It got great reviews recently, folds out of the way, and you can count on it being more than adequate to the task. Feel free to let your wife know that I sympathize with her position and that I support balancing needs, but that in this case, I tried it that way and it didn't work.

   Welcome to woodworking!

   Best,

   Charlie

   I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
7. 
   Sprucegum | Apr 09, 2004 09:33pm | #8

   Price out a new footboard for the bed and the bookcases you want , then on the other side of the ledger price the lumber and the saw.

   If the bottom lines jive you can have the saw you want right now.

   Good luck!

   Yes,I made it. No,not hard. Yes, a long time.

8. 
   ravenwind | Apr 09, 2004 11:54pm | #16

         I have three table saws , 1. ryobi  99.00 saw   2. skillsaw 179.00, in a rouseau stand 149.00 good deal used for years   3. Rigid w/ stand w/ wheels 500.00 good saw for the price.

          My point is saws for different reasons and different prices .  I alwas need a cheep kick around saw   a. to leave at some jobsites and b. to loan out to friends and relitives and c. to leave outside  with a tarpe over it and not worry if it gets stolen.       and the better skillsaw to keep at home always so I can have a decent saw there always . and the Rigid is for most jobs so I have an accurate and dependable saw for jobs.  and someday ill get the Bosch mounted on the rigid stand and then ill be in heaven man, dig it.  

         so my advice to you is get the cheep one for birthday and use it for now and somday get yourself a better one if you ever need one.

                                                                        dogboy

9. 
   fdampier5 | Apr 10, 2004 02:34am | #17

   I stared with a real cheap portable table saw and it lasted for years untill I overworked it once too often..

        Sears is real junk  I hate them but under a hundred dollars and you get started I suspect   you'll be happy untill you are ready to move up to a Cabinate saw.. Whne you do check out Grizzley.. I can't tell you how happy I am with the stuff I'vegotten from them.. (   grizzley.com   ) 

10. 
    richk1 | Apr 10, 2004 04:29am | #20

    I agree with some of the other posters about the BT3100.  I bought a BT3000 about 4 years ago for a one time project in my new house.  I have subsequently developed a real love of woodworking.  Over the years I've upgraded the blade to a Forrest WWII and have bought a shop full of "serious" equipment, but I plan to keep the Ryobi until next year and then upgrade to a cabinet saw.  Until now, I could never justify getting a new tablesaw when the Ryobi did such a good job and there was always some other tool to spend the money on.

    I feel I got more than my $300 out of the saw so my vote is to check out the Ryobi.

    Come to think of it, if the Ryobi was a complete piece of junk I would have never started woodworking and could have saved $ thousands by not buying the rest of the equipment. Talk about a bad ROI  ;-)

    Richk1

    Rich Knab
    People of mediocre ability sometimes achieve outstanding success because they don't know when to quit.

11. 
    stancalow | Apr 10, 2004 05:03am | #21

    DB

    As a hobbyist, cut your dadoes with a router not a table saw.  Much safer, and less time-consuming. 

    My opinion is that if you wait until you can afford better tools, you won't produce anything while you are waiting.  Waiting is like saying you won't drive a car until you can get a Mercedes.  It would be different if you were dping this as a business.

12. 
    USANigel | Apr 10, 2004 04:56pm | #23

    With keeping in mind you have $100-200 to spend go look at the Skil table saw for $190 at Home depot. I used that saw for 6 years of heavy use and still have it. When I had saved enought I picked up the Dewalt. Back to the skil table saw, direct drive, bit of a kick when switched on but ran fine with enought power. Its a little more dependent on blade type (#of teeth for the job) fence was ok if you carefully set it up and (like all tools ) kept an eye on it. The kit they have now comes with a stand, carbide blade, outfeed extension, side table etc. If you had $500 to spend then we're looking at something else!!

13. 
    MichaelPB | Apr 12, 2004 04:59pm | #26

    I am really surprised nobody mentioned looking in the local paper for a used saw.  Used cast iron Craftsman contractor saws can be had all day long in most places for $100-$150.

    Also, if your a CPA, ask some of your other CPA buddies if they handle any woodworking firms.  Perhaps someone either has a saw for sale or you could trade some work for a saw.

    Find out if there are any used tool stores, or if there is a local wood working club.  Ours here in Sacramento has a used tool sale twice a year and the tools are almost given away.

    Anyway, good luck with it.

    Michael

1. 
   DB | Apr 12, 2004 06:17pm | #27

   Thanks for the commentary.  I'd thought about buying a used one but stayed away for two reasons:

   A.  Limited space - I need something relatively compact and am less likely to find that with an older saw.

   B.  Both my father and my father-in-law have old cast-iron Craftsman table saws and neither of them like to use them because the old rip fences are a pain in the butt.  If I got something used for $100-150, I would likely have to spend another $100-150 to get a better rip fence.  Then I'm back to the price point where I've spent as much as getting a brand new BT3100. 

   I apologize if I am overlooking something there.

14. 
    Jimmbo | Apr 13, 2004 05:11am | #29

    I'm barely more than a novice myself, but I say You're not crazy - you can get a few good years' use out of that saw until you are ready to trade up.  I bought a Delta benchtop which just crapped out, but it was after 4 or 5 years or service.  I added a better rail and fence system, extending the right side rip and making it more stable.  I also added an outfeed table that fastened to a wood frame I attached under the base.  I even ran a 3/4 inch strait cut carbide router bit through the miter slots to  knock off the stupid "T" shape and make them standard sized.  It came out strait and opened the door to standard accessories.  I think it is ok to go cheap at this point, as long as you keep in mind that it is a temporary fix and put asside some bucks as you go along to get a getter saw later, which is where I am now.

    By the way, I'm in a similar boat and I totally get your comment about using your mind all day and hands in the evening.   Best of luck whatever you decide.