As retirement approaches, I’m trying to identify some small relatively low priced items I can sell at the local farmer’s market before christmas. One item I’ve made for gifts is lamps made with interesting scraps.
Perhaps some of the woodies out there that are also attorneys or someone else with some experience could discuss the liabilities of making lamps and how to avoid losing one’s home.
In general, don’t we all accept some liability each time we sell something? How do people making chairs, tables, etc deal with this liability? I’m looking for real experience and good suggestions, not conservative rants about trial lawyers. Thanks
Replies
UL (or other agency) listing is required.
UL listing is not required. If the house burns down and you have the UL listing it takes you out of the loop for liability. At least that was what I was told at the fab shop I worked at. We did occasional cutom lighting and were UL approved for hardwired ceiling lamps and sconces. Each type of lamp reqires a special UL classification and it was very expensive to be associated with UL. They had a special test unit that had to be sent back annually for calibration.
Rick3ddd ---
UL listing does not reduce your liability.
UL or other agency approval is required to sell any electrical device.
mlbfreestyle ---
Wiring used in boats is all tinned. There is no problem with the solder (tinning).
You are correct on UL not reducing liability.
You do not need UL approval to sell any electrical device.
UL is basically a piece of mind thing for consumers.
I just got off the phone with a couple of folks at UL
http://www.ul.com
You are correct, a UL rating (they don't "approve" anything) is not required to sell an item.
Last time I looked, a Jet contractor saw did not have a UL seal.Howie.........
>> UL listing does not reduce your liability.
I agree. If the fire investigators say your lamp burned the house down, a UL label will be little or no defense. If the cause of the fire is unclear, a UL label might help some.
>> UL or other agency approval is required to sell any electrical device.
Required by whom? Under the authority of what law or regulation? Enforced by what agency? What penalties are defined? Is non-compliance a civil or criminal matter.
When I worked for a company that made network switches, we had to get safety approvals to sell in Europe or Britain, but not in the US. We had customers whose purchase orders required UL listing, and for that reason all our systems were UL listed, but I never heard of any legal requirement for safety approval in the US.
We did have to meet standards for RF emissions, but that was to reduce interference with radio and TV.
I believe inquiring at the Consumer Product Safety .... will produce proof of the validity of my statement.
This web site http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/regsbyproduct.html describes three categories of products. 1) Regulated products, for which CPSC has issued a mandatory safety standard, or banned if they cannot be made safe. 2) Products which lie outside CPSC jurisdiction, usually because another federal agency oversees them. 3) Unregulated products, for which there is no mandatory standard, but which are nevertheless subject to recall or ban if they are unsafe.
Lamps do not occur in the list of regulated products nor in the list of products outside the CPSC jurisdiction. A document search reveals a significant number of lamp recalls, so it appears to me that lamps are in the third category, recallable if unsafe but not subject to a mandatory safety standard.
Well, I'm no attorney, so let's hope they will speak to this issue.
While we all know that anyone can sue anybody for anything these days, I can't imagine you would have a problem unless you made some really bonehead mistake in your wiring. I assume you will make certain you know how to wire a lamp properly, and will buy high quality UL approved cord sets, fixtures, etc.
So even after you take these precautions, what happens if the buyer's dog chews at the wire, which then sparks and starts a fire, which then burns the house down? The buyer could sue you, but it would never be sustained in a court (at least if you could prove "the dog did it"). But the real problem -- and cost -- would be that you would be pretty much forced to hire a lawyer, no matter how frivolous the suit.
I would also urge you to have a talk with your insurance people. Liability issues aside, since you are making items for sale (even on a modest scale), you might be forced to consider taking out commercial insurance of one sort or another. This is a really sticky issue for anyone who makes items for sale in a home based shop that is covered by conventional homeowner's insurance.
Please avoid one minor mistake I often see; even on professional work. Do not "tin" the ends of any stranded wire that you will be looping under a screw head or other pressure-type wire clamp. Solder will "flow out" under pressure over time (several weeks?) and you will end up with a loose connection. A loose connection has higher electrical resistance and higher resistance can generate heat. Need I go on? You will at least end up with a light that will flicker at times. At worst; you could end up with a hot cord or socket.
There is a strong temptation to tin the ends to avoid fraying. You can tin the extreme tips of the wires if you want to; just not the portion that will actually be under pressure under the screw head. In some cases, you can use a crimp-type ring lug on the end of the wires if the wiring cavity is large enough.
I don't agree at all with not tinning the ends of stranded wire. I have been tinning stranded wire for over 50 years and have never had a failure. those who say the tinned wire creeps are putting it in the same class a aluminum wire which it aint.
With the introduction of 60/40 or 63/37 solder many years ago, soldering reliability increased greatly.
Screw terminals and stranded wire are the worst reliable termination that was ever invented. Twisted stranded wires will shift and loosen and creat a high resistance connection which means heat which means more shifting and oxidation which means fire or failure. I have seen it a hundred times and the permanant fix is always soldered twisted wire.
I am not talking about some antique variety of solder here; 60/40 and the like. It can creep. If the screw is tightened down sufficiently to compress the solder and put the pressure on the wire, then I might expect good results.
You're correct about the soldering of twisted wire connections. At one time I was a NASA certified electronic tech and guess which type of connection they - NOT preferred but - DEMANDED? You got it!
All wire we used was standed and all connections were twisted, soldered, trimmed then soldered into the swage cup or solder cup terminal. When I say twisted I mean a very gentle twist. These solder cups were also tinned before the wire was inserted. After the wire is inserted into the cup they are both soldered together with a very thin layer of solder.
Everything we did for NASA was done according to spec and that type of connection was NASA and MIL SPEC.
Solder used was also SN60 or SN63 which is what you speak of as well.
Hi to telemiketoo and all:
Exellent question. I have been trying to get a definative answer to this for probably 20 years. I truly hope someone at this forum has the real dope on this. Talk to anyone in the lamp business and they will say "has to have a ul sticker". Take a good look at guild.com at their artisan lamps and I would be very surprised if any of them are ul listed. Fine Woodworking did an article a few years back on a Ca. woodworker who was making some Green & Green lamp repros, again I would bet you they are not ul listed.
It would be great to get a no b.s. answer to this. Good luck and thanks for posting. Robert
When I said UL approved, I meant the electrical parts -- socket, cord set. Far as I know, that's the best way to make sure you're buying something that's reliable.
I did not even know that the UL people were in the business of approving an entire lamp assembly.
I suspected that I'm not the only one concerned about issues like this. A suit can take my home, my vehicle, and my tools (them's fightin' words!!). Also, even worse, an error can kill or painfully injure someone!
It doesn't sound like there's a really satisfying answer to this question - there's no government requirements for selling these types of products, and the lack of requirements (regulations) means there's no shield.
Perhaps it would be better to form some kind of insulated "corporation" that could be sued, but wouldn't have any significant assets. Does a beast like this exist? (and is this a morally acceptable answer - a question that only an ex-seminarian would ask!!)
As for solder, I've used it for years by crimping on terminals and then (redundantly) soldering the crimped terminals to the wire. The screw then tightens on a loop terminal. Too expensive for the far east folks that make lamps, but I'd only make a lamp that I'd be willing to have in my own house. Note that the far east guys use crimped terminals, not solder.
I think most of you are wrong! Except maybe for the wiring. First, the only thing a UL label indicates is that the appliance in question meets a recognized standard. We see these standards listed on most of our appliances, interior finishes, some paints, fire extinguishers, etc. In order to get a UL label, you must send the item to UL's lab, along with a rather large check, and specify what testing you want to be performed on the item. If the item passes the test, you are able to buy the right (and the stickers) to put the UL label on the product. Your product is also then eligible to be listed in their books of approved items. You could, for example, send your lamp to UL and request that it be tested to ASTM-E84 standards, and if it were red oak it would receive a UL flame spread rating of 100 along with the smoke development and fuel contribution number that is applicable for red oak. ASTM-E84 is the Steiner Tunnel Test that tests the flame spread of materials used as flooring with red oak being the base material used. Is it safe for use as a lamp? Who knows, but it is UL rated. So to answer your question, no you don't have to get a UL label or test for your lamps, just be sure to use listed or labled parts.
As to liability, I certainly don't have anything anyone can take away from me. In my home state, if I should be sued, they can't take my homestead, the tools necessary for me to make a living, my transportation (and the wife's car is in her name) or my pension (remember OJ, he still has his NFL pension and somehow has enough money to look for his wife's killer on the golf courses of Florida) If you should have investments such as rent property or a large stock portfolio, they may be able to get that, but most people transfer those assets to their spouse before things get out of hand legally.
There were two guys involved in the S&L scandal in the 80's who told the courts they were insolvent, their wives owned all the assets. IIRC, the paper trail was good enough that the courts couldn't reach the property. So that might work, if you have a wife.
Plus, if she gets tired of you, it would really cut down on the bickering during the property settlement phase of the divorce.
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