Laminate trimmer review- collet release?
I’ve never owned a laminate trimmer before, and I’m now deciding which one to buy. I really appreciated the recent review in FWW, which helped a lot. One thing that was not mentioned was whether any of the models reviewed have self-releasing collets, or, if not, whether the design of any of them makes bit changing easier with regard to collets getting stuck. Between the four laminate trimmers that were recommended by the FWW article (the Virutex, PC, Makita, and DeWalt), are any of them more or less likely to cause me troubles with this?
I have limited experience with routers. I own one, a 2 1/4 HP Makita, and I have found bit changes very troublesome and time consuming because the collet gets stuck every time. I just read a thread where a guy described a technique for releasing the collet (see 16383.4 in reply to 16383.1). I’ll try that next time, and I hope that solves my problem (too bad no such technique was described in the Makita owner’s manual, leaving me to fend for myself). Are there special techniques that folks have found effective for releasing collets in laminate trimmers, or are they pretty much the same as bigger routers?
Replies
In most, you rotate the collet by hand while pushing in a pin near the collet until it locks in place. Then with the trimmer on the table, loosen the collet with a wrench.
Here's one simple technique to loosen any bit that is stuck in the collet: After you have loosened the retaining nut, lightly tap the flat of the nut (not the collet) with the collet wrench. That will free the bit.
This will work in any router without the self-releasing retaining nut.
You are right, self releasing collets are not to be found on trimmers.
As a rule, cutters are not changed often in the trimmer, they get hot, and they weld themselves to the collet. Key is to clean shank, seat of collet and collet inside and out. Wipe a drop or 2 of oil on outside of collet from time to time for easy ejection.
Routers
More on collets:
I just read through the thread you cited, and here are a couple of additional thoughts I did not see covered:
1) Woodhaven sells brass brushes intended to clean collets. I use them all the time for maintenance purposes. They will also send you a free pamphlet on collet maintenance:
http://www.woodhaven.com/SearchResult.aspx?KeyWords=collet%20maintenance
2) Occasionally, if a bit will not release with light taps on the nut, I will spray Liquid Wrench between the collet and nut. This will usually free everything up with a few additional taps; but if not, I will let it sit overnight.
3) I have only Bosch and PC routers, and the tapping trick has always worked. There may be other brands where a stuck collet may not yield to this technique, but I doubt it.
Thanks to each of you who've responded. It's all been very helpful.
In the thread I referred to, bit changing on a certain Makita router was being discussed. John W said that there's a snap ring seated in a groove around the collet, above (when the router is upside down) the collet nut. When you first loosen the collet nut, the bit won't budge, because the collet is still wedged into the tapered spindle. If you keep unthreading the collet nut, though, it will bump up against the snap ring. Then, using the wrenches, turn it a little more and the collet lifts up out of the spindle and releases the bit. Voila. I just tried this on my Makita router and it works beautifully! I can't believe how easy it is. It appears that it's designed to work exactly that way, but the manual says nothing about this, and when I called Makita tech support, the guy I talked to also said nothing about this. I probably would have figured it out eventually, but in the meantime I've been cursing every bit change.
This brings me back to my question about laminate trimmers. It may well be that cleaning, lubrication, and tapping the collet nut may ease the bit changes on most routers/trimmers, but I'd still be interested to know if any one of the above mentioned trimmers has a design that, like my Makita router, makes releasing the collet a piece of cake (now that I know how to do it!) without having to tap on it or use liquid wrench or anything. Can anyone answer that question?
In case you aren't familiar with the review in FWW, the four laminate trimmers in question are the Virutex FR92D, the Makita 3703FC, the Porter-Cable 310, and the DeWalt DW673K.
BTW, I'm a fledgling guitar maker who will be using the laminate trimmer as a multi-purpose small router, and therefore will be changing bits frequently.
Edited 8/5/2004 1:20 pm ET by Todd
Edited 8/5/2004 1:30 pm ET by Todd
Dear friend,
Have not seen the review mentioned, but will say that the Ryobi laminate router is a very good tool.
It is simple, straightforward to use. It works also very well as a 'small' router, as it is designed like a small router, unlike some of the other laminate trimmers which are meant for just that.
Have not had problems with the collet getting stuck. It uses two wrenches which is a prefered method here.
Have used it for years, before it came, as now does, with an extra sub-base.
-mbl-
I have the PC310 which I use exclusivly as a mini-router for small edge breaking roundovers and w/ a spiral cutter for flush trimming pegs and plugs. It use 2 wrenches and takes a light tap. No big deal. It's a great little production router. If you find you're using 2 bits predominately and have to switch back forth, you may want to get 2 of them. I have gotten some great deals on refurbished PC tools from their outlet/repair center in Ontario, CA. Maybe there's one near you.
FWI - my brand new DW625 3HP router latched on to a brand new CMT bit and wouldn't let go. It was pain to get it out and I ended up chipping the bit the first day. It was the display unit and I needed it "today" so I bought it anyway. I came to find out that the collet (1 wrench self releasing) had been over-tightened beyond the point of no return which is evidently possible to do by hand if there's no bit in it. Fortunately the dealer (Western Tool formerly Abbey Tools) did right by me on the collet and the bit.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
I read the FWW review you mention, and not surprisingly, the reviewer disliked the very things that I like about the 2 PC laminate trimmers.
The same is true in these forums when it comes to tool comments. Everyone goes through their own process to select a tool, and then, and not surprisingly, their tool of choice becomes the "best" in the group.
Your best course is to get to a real tool store where you can look at each of the models to see which features make sense to you. I think any one of them will do the job just fine.
That said, the PC router with the round base (can't remember the model #) is my personal favorite. It is easy to make fine depth adjustments, and because of the round base, it is easy to use a guide, just as you would with a regular size router. With any of the square based routers, using a guide is a trickier proposition.
Just to point out that messages on tools are not always to proclaim a tool owned and used as 'best', but many are given to compensate that at a store, a buyer can only see the tools but not use them in actual wood-cuttin, and the sales-persons are often not aware of tools details.
You favor the PC-310 which is a very good trim router, having the advantage of being built like a mini-real-router, not like a roto-zip grinder with a bracketted base.
The capability of adapting a sub-base to a trim-router is no minor feature, that's why the PC-310 is nice.
Here, have and use three trim-routers and they are sub-base capable. One is the Ryobi, another is an old Stanley trim-router, and another is a Boasch trim-router that is identical to the Stanley.
The PC-310, the old Stanley, The old-Bosch, and the Ryobi are similar in design. The Ryobi is quite inexpenssive and strong, in-spite of being all-plastic. The Stanley, the P.C., and the old Bosch are aluminum-like alloys.
The Ryobi now comes with a sub-base. Sub-bases are preferably Lexan or similar clear plastic. A knob is added for holding the trim router with two hands, which makes them easier, more reliable, and safer to use. Such bases are not easy to make due to accuracy and cutting difficulty. Making them can be a safety issue; router bits like to dig in the plastics and pull the work-pieces out of control. A certain expertise is needed. Working Lexan is not for beginners, would say.
Anyhow, here's a picture of the Ryobi with a minimum profile sub-base, and one of the old Stanley, with a similar but a little larger sub-base. The most used is the Ryobi. It is lighter, yet more powerful than the old Stanley. It is easy to change bits. Both use two wrenches, which is a nice aproach, since the motor on both slips out easily, and the depth of cut stays very well where one sets it, since the whole shell clamps the motor.
Could you tell me if the band around the motor (just below the Ryobi name) is a soft grip surface?
Thank you
Dear Routerman,
No, it is not a soft-grip surface. The entire router is made of tough, stiff plastic. It has two colors, blue and black. The motor being all black with a blue top. The clamping shell is also blue.
A tall knob (does not show well in the photo), in lieu of a short knurl stub, allows the left hand to wrap around it and hold it very well up and safe at the end of a routing operation while the right hand turns the switch off.
-mbl-
You're right. I was too dismissive in tone about individual users always promoting their tool choice as the "best" in the category. Such comment about one's experience with a tool is a valuable part of the information flow around here.
I like the plastic base plates you show (in the photos) with the Ryobi and Stanley trim routers. Did you make them yourself?
As I noted before, I have a PC 310, and I use it mainly for inlay work against a guide, which is why the round base is useful. Much of the work requires starting and stopping the router in the field, and the tiny opening in the sub base makes it devilishly difficult to see what you are doing. I did enlarge the hole in the base plate, which helps some.
Someone suggested the plunge base assembly (link below), but it is not available with a round base -- which makes guide work more difficult.
http://[email protected]/lambase.htm
Another possibility would be a round base plate made for laminate trimmers in the more usual configuration (those with a square base). I have two PC's of that ilk, and would buy such a base plate in a heartbeat -- if I could find one.
Any ideas?
Dear friend,
The sub-bases are self-made. Initially the Ryobi base was about the same size as the one shown for the old Stanley. Then realized by needs that it would be best if it were as small as possible, yet keep the knob and added support, so trimmed it down to what's now shown: the minimum profile of sub-base. The round edge at the Ryobi was done trimming to the roundness of the Ryobi itself. But first, the plastic has to be cut as colse as possible to the shape, to avoid router-bit dig-ins.
The old Stanley is old only in that it is discontinued. Its label calls it a Industrial router; it is. It is not old in design. It is up to date and would be a good seller if still produced. It has a special design-cut in the shell that is hellical in profile, so that one makes the depth adjustments by loosening the clamp nut and turning the motor. The motor follows very nicely the hellical cut as. As it advances it does not jerk, but moves smoothly. The PC-310 is also an industrial-production rated tool. It's motor is 'threaded' that's why it advances smoothly. The only thing is that as the motor is turned, the electric cord and switch changes location and sometimes where it wants to be is not where one would like it to be. With the old-stanley design, that does not happen, nor with the Ryobi.
For inlay work, would say the PC-310 is an excellent choice because it was designed much for that purpose. It takes the inlay bushings of P.C.
For visibility, the Routerman's round subplate for that model takes the bushings too. Making the cutout for the template bushings is very difficult to do without the right techniques, equipment, set-ups, and experience, and one's better off to buy it made as such. By the time the cost of the plastic, the knob, and the time and difficulties of making them are added, it's clear that his prices are more than fair.
You ask for some ideas. Briefly would say: If your work requires a lot of start-stop, as for inlay, you really ought to have a momentary-contact on/off foot switch.
Also, would say taht the newer trim routers with square bases are not well suited for subbases, and their height mechanisms are prone to some jerkyness, due to the nature of the design. They are nice for many things, and even smaller and more powerful than the previous motors.
One exception might be the P.C. 309 laminate trimmer. That one has a plastic motor but it is 'threaded' and its base is a very-low profile metal round housig-base that looks much like the old Stanley, but has an even smaller footprint. But it is a little less powerful. It is even less powerful than the PC-310. That one has the cord going straight up, so when turning the motor the cord does not invade the routing path or view. Have not bought routers in years, so can't say if it's still available.
Best wishes.
-mbl-
Thanks for your reply.
If the Routerman sees this thread, I hope he will post his site again. I remember going there once before, but unfortunately did not bookmark it. From your comments, it sounds as though buying a base plate is the better way to go -- if something is available.
The plunge device from Bishop Cochran (the link in my previous post) would solve all my problems, if only it were available with a round base. When I said "guide," I meant an edge guide, rather than the template guide.
RE: Stanley routers. When I first started buying routers 25 or so years ago, they were the class of the field. I seem to recall Bosch bought out the router line, and then, they just disappeared.
RE: the PC 309. When I bought the 310 about 3 years ago, I am pretty sure I saw this in the catalog, but my tool store did not display it. Kind of tall and skinny, with a quite-small base plate, right? Might work fine for my purpose. I need something with a tall enough sub base (and a large enough opening) so I can see where the bit is located on my cut line. Power is not really an issue, nor is depth adjustment.
Thanks again.
Dear Nikki,
Hoping Routerman does not mind, here's a link to his subbase:
http://www.patwarner.com/pc310_special.html
Also, checked on the PC-309 trim router and it is still made. It does not have provisions for an edge-guide (using two rods), neither does the PC-310. If this is not right, or there's a way, perhaps other readers can point it out.
The Ryobi trim router, DOES have bore-guides for an optional edge guide. This tool is locally carried by the usual HD and similar stores, and you could readily assess it for the needs you describe.
Will also say this on the new square-base trim routers: The reason they give us square bases and not round ones is because with the rotor-tool design and form of height control, they could not maintain proper relationship between the bit-center and the circular profile of a base, not because a square base is better in any way.
The square base is limitted and intended for trimming mainly. It can not, for instance, follow some curved profile in an inside curve-cut, or some other template following uses, which only a circular base can.
It is easier to lean and follow a guide (straight or curved) with a circular base. However, it has to be properly centered. By providing stratigh-edge, they circumvent the problem, as long as only a straight-edge guide ruler is used.
In sub-bases made here, the straight edges are meant for triming longer,straigh runs, and other functions. The round part is centered with the router bit. Those are some of the difficult things to do, and Routerman surely has already templates and methods to guarantee good results, so yes, in general, it's best to go access his generosity in making them available.
The ones made here are made to specific needs and uses. The Ryobi one for instance, has little holes for a nail to go through. That's for cutting circles. Here, have an inverted pin router and access to a machine shop, so, have made these ones, and many more, for other things. Machine-shop tools turn at much lower RPM's. Higher RPM's of routers tend to melt plastics too. Without the proper aproach, as said before, it's better to get them made. Some of Routerman's items were sold under PC part number, as they are his own designs.
Best wishes for well-being and woodworking to all.
-mbl-
Todd,
I wrote the post about freeing up the collet on Makita routers, I'm glad to hear it was useful information. It's sad that a Makita tech didn't know the tool was designed that way.
I have a Porter cable 310 router and I haven't had any problem with the collet sticking, the angle on the collet sides is fairly steep so the collet has always released without a problem. It pays, as with any router, to keep the collet clean and apply a touch of light grease to the outside of the collet and on the threads. Also don't overtighten the collet, these small collets don't need a lot of torque on the wrenches to tighten firmly on the bit.
For general use, rather than laminate work, I would highly recommend the PC, it is easy to hold and adjusts the bit height simply and accurately, much better than any laminate trimmer. Bit changes are easy with the PC, the motor lifts out of the base with a simple pull. It is also easy to make and fit special bases for the PC, I have several shop made ones.
The wrenches that come with the PC are thin and can dig into the flats on the motor shaft so I keep a pair of ordinary mechanic's open end wrenches for bit changing. You may have to grind the smaller wrench, a 7/16 inch, a bit thinner to allow it to slip under the nut to reach the flats on the motor's shaft.
Hope this helps,
John W.
Edited 8/5/2004 6:37 pm ET by JohnW
I have several routers with self-releasing collets, so when I purchased tools that did not have them I had trouble at first. Then I heard of the trick (mentioned earlier in this discussion thread) of tapping the wrench against the flat of the collet nut after it had been loosened. That works like a dream. Be sure to hold the laminate trimmer in such a way that when the collet relaxes its grip on the bit, the bit won't fall to the floor and get damaged.
The tools I have which do not have self-releasing collets are a P-C 7310 Laminate Trimmer and a Makita GE0600 Die Grinder. The P-C 7310 has a spindle lock button which makes bit changing easy. The Makita GE0600 uses two wrenches like many larger routers.
An additional tip - the Makita Die Grinder has available both 1/4" and 1/8" collets, so it can handle many tasks which would overload and bog down a Dremel Moto-Tool. Think of it as a sort of "Super Dremel."
- Musician42
Hi Todd,
I wrote the laminate trimmer article in FWW. With regard to your original question of whether any of the reviewed trimmers had a self releasing collet, the answer is no they don't. I was surprised that they didn't. You're right it is a great help. The only routers I know that do have a self-releasing collet are the larger PC's.
The trick of tapping the nut does work to remove the bit. It also helps to not store a bit in the collet. If you take the bit out every time you put the router away, I think it's easier to release day-to-day. Also keep the collet clean.
Regards,
Kim Carleton Graves
Carleton Woodworking
Kim,
I liked the article and thought you did a pretty good job.
I also forgot to mention something else. As I said I ended up with a PC310. First I bought a Bosch (I forget the model) and the Bosch guide bushings. Well I got home and the bushings didn't fit. I checked around and nobody had them as they were peculiar to that laminate trimmer. So I took it back and exchanged it for the PC310 which oddly enough accepts standard PC bushings as do my 3 DW routers.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
And for more control maybe fashion a subbase like these (out of clear plastic).
Thanks again to all who have taken the time to respond to my question. I'm grateful for your help. Special thanks to Kim and John W for chiming in.
Those are nice. Acrylic or Lexan? I have one I cobbled together out of 1/4" melamine with a 1" slot open to the front that works great for flusing-off pegs - especially when there's 2 a couple of inches apart. I should make a nice clear one like these. I think you'll agree that the PC310 is the best mini-router out there.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
The pictures aren't mine, but I made a similar base to the one with the knob out of acrylic for my PC. It dramatically increase the contol of the tool. With the smaller dimensioned base, I have rocked the tool on long cuts, putting an irregularity in the cut. With the base extension being further over the work piece, this just doesn't happen.
I just found this thread, but I wanted to thank you for the article as well. I bought the DW as a result of the article. I have been hanging more than a few doors recently, and wanted to have a more responsive tool to use in the hinge and latch jigs. My PC 690 works, but is still unwieldy. The laminate size is perfect and works great with one hand. My big complaint is just how difficult the verticle height/depth adjustment is on the DW. It is virtually impossible to duplicate the depth, (easily). I love the accessory bases, etc. and the tool itself is up to the task. I just wish there was a better way to monitor the depth.
Hi Bob,
Yea, you're right. The height adjustment, on the Dewalt, is not very good, as I hopefully pointed out in the article. In my shop, we've been using the Virutex with great success as a general woodworking tool. It's really the best and most versatile of the bunch.
Regards,
Kim Carleton Graves
Carleton Woodworking
you and JohnW are right... no question. I know that was in the article.
You probably bought the DeWalt for other reasons than the ease of height adjustment, but as the article pointed out, the Porter Cable 310 had the best adjustment mechanism. From my own experience it's height adjuster is light years ahead of the others. For general woodworking I would recommend the 310 over any of the dedicated laminate trimmers, it is far more practical to use.
Hi Todd This will not solve already stuck bits but a little paste wax on the outside of the collet will stop it jamming and does not collect dust which causes further jams We have several pc 310's, an old b&d and a few routers of various types .Most times the self extracting collet doesn't need to work to free the bit since we started using paste wax.
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