Replies

1. 
   nazard | May 04, 2009 01:06am | #1

   Mel who?

2. 
   9619 | May 04, 2009 02:48pm | #2

   Tom,
   How ya doing?
   Nazard was kidding you because you probably meant to address the message to me, but sent it to "ALL" instead. I have done similar things a number of times. No worries, friend.

   All is well here in Virginia. I am getting more time in the shop than ever and am trying some new stuff. For over forty years, I have made rectangular furniture and done carving, but I have never tried a chair. Now that I have a grandson, I decided to make him a little gliding chair (rocker). It takes a lot more time to work on rounded stuff, and stuff that moves, than on rectangular stuff. But the challenges are fun. I'll post photos when I am finished, which may still be a few weeks.

   How are things with you? What are you working on?
   Mel

   Measure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   veggiefahmah123 | May 04, 2009 03:12pm | #3

   Mel,
   Still working on my chairs, but that's slowed down because I'm back workin on the farm. Only part time, but each morning after a 4 hour work session sees a different portion of the old bod all achy and stiff. When I look around tho,at guys my age and younger, I feel lucky to be able to do the work at all.
   Also, I took on a new student, a very precocious 11 yr old young man who comes from a well to do family who probably wants to channel him into being a damn lawyer or broker or politician or something useless like that. So I'm avidly encouraging his love of tools and wood, so he'll grow up healthy and wise. Went to my Woodcraft store and bought some basswood and a couple tools. So today, I'll be teaching myself how to make a wooden spoon, so I can show him how at tomorrow's class.
   I love one on one teaching second only to kids, woodworkin and fahmin. Shop time...TomPS I'll be stopping posting on this thread and go back to the old, real thread. Can't wait to see your rocker when it's done.

   Edited 5/4/2009 8:13 am ET by veggiefahmah123

1. 
   9619 | May 04, 2009 08:03pm | #4

   Tom,
   Glad that you have taken on a student. One on one teaching is really satisfying. I am not a fan of the "courses" that you see so many people give, in which they have 8 or 10 students and they try to get something made in a day. There is little learning - just rushing and copying, but with little time for watching actual performance and giving feedback on it. So good luck with your student. The farm work sounds like it is good for the sould as well as for the body. Keeps you in shape -- much better shape than the lawyers and doctors. Also keeps your mind real- about what we control, and what we can't control.Well, am working on the chair again today. It is difficult being both the teacher and the student. What I am really trying to do is to understand the instructions which were written by someone who didn't know how to write instructions. :-)Have fun.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   roc | May 05, 2009 07:52am | #5

   >8 or 10 students>trying to . . . understand the instructions which were written by someone who didn't know how to write instructions. :-)I can't help chiming in.When I taught some annual mechanical classes we learned six or eight students and two instructors was allot of fun. Different perspectives from two teachers and students got some attention this way.Often my first task before starting in on something with instructions ( that will be used more than once ) is to rewrite them in proper order, using consistent terms and double check the torque specs or what have you. Still talking mechanical here. Can't tell you how often I have gotten in trouble just blindly following poorly written instructions. And don't get me started on the translated ones. It always surprises me they can't "go down town" and find a poor starving student of the nationality the instructions have been translated to and ask them to proof read the damned thing in exchange for a good meal.Here is an example: Be sure to chamfer round top side to prevent jumping and knocking.Reeeallly ?rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

1. 
   Lataxe | May 05, 2009 10:04am | #6

   Roc,

   I always chamfer round top side to prevent jumping and knocking.  How could it be otherwise in this knocky, jumpy modern world? Sometimes I ogee bottom side also, to prevent banging and leaping, as one can never be complacent concerning these matters.

   Lataxe

2. 
   roc | May 05, 2009 12:03pm | #7

   Ha, ha, ha, aaahhhh, Ha, ha, harocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

3. 
   9619 | May 05, 2009 03:23pm | #8

   Roc,
   I enjoy teaching. I have taught Psychology at Penn State and mathematics at the University of Connecticut. I even taught preschool for a few weeks. That was eye-opening. Those kids are really smart, and they know how to control teachers. They gang up on you. :-)My comments about teaching woodwork are about what I have seen and experienced at the Woodcraft shop. I took a "course" in making Shaker boxes. THey usually have 6 to 8 students. The "rule" is that you should leave the class having made something. I offered to teach a course on dovetails and another on hand planing. The response was, Sure do the one on dovetails but have the students each make a box. I replied that in one afternoon, there was not enough time to make a box and still give a demonstration, and then have the class actually practice cutting to a line, laying out dovetails, cutting them, and ALSO watching each one and giving them feedback on each step, so I would not have them make a box, just practice and get feedback.I was told that if they will not make anything, no one will sign up for the class. I responded that that is a good thing. I only want to teach people who want to learn. So I never set up the course.So one day, who comes to teach dovetailing but Rob Cosman. He gave a three hour "course" to 20 "students", and demonstrated making dovetails. No one got any practice. No one made anything. He just did what he does on his DVDs. I asked the manager about his "requirement" that people actually make something in a class. He said that this was different. This was Cosman. I believe that woodworking is made up of facts, psychomotor skills and attitudes. Facts are easy to learn. "Pine is a soft wood." Psychomotor skills are best learned via actual practice along with feedback. If a woodworking class does not have time to have students practice skills and get feedback, it probably isn't worth taking. The most difficult part of teaching woodworking, is imparting good attitudes. Try teaching "safety". No so easy.Anyway, those are my biases.By the way, you mentioned chamfering to avoid knocking. My car engine was knocking, so I got a file and chamfered the edges of the engine. It doesn't knock any more. Thanks for the suggestion.Enjoy,
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

4. 
   roc | May 05, 2009 07:18pm | #9

   >requirement" that people actually make something in a class. He said that this was different. This was Cosman.I say set up the class to teach hand planing but this time anounce the class will be taught by THEEE "9619"The class will fill up and you will be turning them away !If the manager says anything just say people will be taking a yard stick away with them that they made and the graduations and numbers are up to them to do as home work.You could even have part two where people learn to use number punches and a try square to put on the graduation lines.>chamfering to avoid knocking . . . car engine was knocking, so I got a file and chamfered the edges of the engine. . . doesn't knock any moreIs that what all that was about ? ? ? completely baffled meee until now.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

5. 
   9619 | May 05, 2009 09:57pm | #10

   Roc,
   I LIKE the way you think. I may set up a number of classes. One to make yardsticks. One to make tooth picks, and one to make a wood product that will substitute well for foam peanuts. I call the stuff "shavings". The class will each make two full boxes of "foam peanut replacements". The focus will be on increasing the skill of the student -- on skill building -- by demonstrating to the students, and then by having the students try, and giving feedback )again and again and again, until performance has reached a good level (or until the end of the class timeperiod) :-)I like the idea of using the metal stamps and the try squareI am thinking of giving a class on "INTELLIGENT WOODWORKING". The class will begin with a videotape of a person coming in and asking for the $15 four piece square with a center finder and a 45 degree angle on a 12 inch ruler. Starrett makes one of these for about $150. Often I am asked, how can they make these things so cheap? My answer is: making it cheap is easy. What do you plan to do with it? If the answer comes back, "Test for squareness". Then I ask, "How do you know that your new "square is square"? The answer often comes back, "Well they are called squares, and you are selling them as squares, so they must be square, no?" I ask if they know how to test a square for squareness, and the usual response is; HUH, what are you talking about?Now do you see the need for a class on "INTELLIGENT WOODWORKING"?Maybe I should call it "intelligent tool buying". If Starrett makes a good one for $150, and an importer makes one for $15, why doesn't Starrett just go out of business? That is, because their squares are square and their straight edges are straight (or at least "straight enough for woodworking")I see others come in and want to buy lots of "HIGH PRECISION MEASURING SYSTEMS. Gimme a bunch of those INCRA things, and one of those measuring gadgets that measures down to a thousandth! My answer is :Sure, here they are? What are you going to use them for? I rarely get a useful answer to that question, so I ask how well their table saw is set up, and sometimes get a response like, "what do you mean "set up". I put it together when I bought it five years ago and it still works good." So you see, I really think there is a need for a set of classes on "intelligent woodwork". There are a lot of people who don't know how that power need to be tested and calibrated every once in a while, and that hand planes need to be sharpened when they get dull. I see too many people who want to buy a cheap handplane, and when asked if they have any sharpening stones, reply with something like "doesn't it come sharp?"I recommend books to a lot of people. But I am not sure that will work with some of them.WADDYATHINK?
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

6. 
   roc | May 05, 2009 11:39pm | #11

   >WADDYATHINK?The buzz word I hear allot, mostly from sales people, is "absolutely ". That pretty much makes every thing "alright " or does it ?I see the same thing in bicycles. I believe the term is dilettante. In the old days people used to get a nice bike because they enjoyed looking at it ( and planned to keep it a good while ) and wanted to get out and explore their surroundings and have some peace and beauty in their lives. And it was easy to imagine getting out so far one does not want to walk back so they learn how to fix a flat and it is no big deal. Just an opportunity to stop and look around and take a break from sitting on that tender spot. Five minutes and a bit of a snack and back on the bike. No big thingNow days I ask: you have a patch kit, spare tube and pump ? Answer: Oh I don't work on my bike.Then I ask: what are you going to do if you get a flat tire and need to fix it ? Answer: Oh I am not going to ride that far.? ? ?
   Does that mean they are OK with walking ten miles back to their car ? In my day it could have easily been twenty five or fifty miles back to the car.Or does it mean they are only riding a couple of miles ? In which case what do they need a thousand dollar bike for ? Just go for a nice walk then.Now judging by the correlation with the advertisements for mountain bikes; mud covered riders bleeding from here and there if not in mid face plant landing, and what I see in the condition of the targets of those advertisements and their bicycles. . . I have to wonder at the motivation for getting involved in Mountain bikes.It is as if they can't wait to get out and break the bike and get some injury that will prevent further ability to ride and so avoid further bother with actually riding and have an excuse to spend at least a week talking about it.Kind of like I am doing right now. I could be in the shop working instead of typing. I have an excuse TODAY though. I just got a new subwoofer (my first) for the shop and I am "testing it out" before taking it down to the shop. A guy has got to be "sure" of his sound equipment before making the "long haul" down the stairs to the shop. Hey this thing is heavy!Humans ! We are a fascinating animal to observe are we not ?>foam peanut replacements<
   sounds oh so practical and properly take awayably useful.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 5/5/2009 4:42 pm by roc

   Edited 5/5/2009 4:43 pm by roc

7. 
   Lataxe | May 06, 2009 12:19am | #12

   Ruck,

   Absolootely!

   Lataxe, still riding his 1981 bicycle and repairing it's punctures, cleaning it's chain, replacing its bottom bracket and iverythang.

   PS Got some new shorts though; and a saddle with a-one o' them holes in, all to prevent personal pipe-squash, the curse of cycling ole pharts everywheres.  Therefore: unbroken-in titanium-framed Brooks racing saddle for sale - 238,987 miles remaining before it slumps.

8. 
   roc | May 06, 2009 07:31am | #13

   >1981 bicycleThat's the stuff ! Old guard knows best--what ?Sorry. Can you tell I been reading Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World ?Saaaay just wait a durn minute. I thought you said you rode one o' them modern epoxy and sooty spider web made bikes.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

9. 
   Lataxe | May 06, 2009 08:38pm | #16

   Roc,

   Ah ha!  I has many a bicycle about the place.  The 1981 model was handbuild by one Alan Dent, a racing cyclist (Milk Race, Peace Race) who I shared a flat with in the early 80s and who took up frame building.  It's Reynold 531SL (superlight) and still whisks along on the same Mavic wheels and using the same strange mix of old European gears et al I clagged on it in the 80s.

   The Giant Cadex sooty thang was acquired in the early 90s and still sports a full Suntour Superbe groupset.  This was the everyday racer; and for longer training runs rather more forgiving on the ersey-end than is the Reynolds.

   Neither of them bikes has seen many miles for some years - until recently.  I spend most of my bike-time aboard a 35llb mountain bike of generic CroMo tubing, festooned with drop-bars, slicks, mudguards, panniers and so forth.

   I won't mention the other stuff, up in the loft.  :-)

   Lataxe

10. 
    Hastings | May 06, 2009 03:55pm | #14

    Mel:Over time you have given us a glimpse of life in your Woodcraft, its customers and its manager.It maybe hard won experience that tells your manager that successful classes must have a "destination", i.e. a finished product or else involve a celebrity. But there are only so many things you can make in such a short session, and the "journey", i.e., process directed classes would offer a rich and endless list of possible classes. He could charge for these and get traffic into the store (the life-blood of any retailer).Anyway, does he know more than you? Does he lack curiosity? (Why wouldn't he at least try it?) Or should we apply Occam's Razor and just assume that he is an idiot? (Not in the sense that Dostoyevski used it!)Hastings

11. 
    9619 | May 06, 2009 08:22pm | #15

    Hastings,
    "Anyway, does he know more than you? Does he lack curiosity? (Why wouldn't he at least try it?) Or should we apply Occam's Razor and just assume that he is an idiot? (Not in the sense that Dostoyevski used it!)"He is not a woodworker. I don't believe he has much interest in woodworking. He was a CPA and now manages this Woodcraft store. He is a very nice guy. He works very hard, and long hours. He is either there or on call seven days a week, from 9 to 9 on weekdays and til 6 on Sat and 5 on Sun. He is no idiot. Enjoy.
    MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

12. 
    9619 | May 07, 2009 03:34pm | #17

    Hastings,
    I sent a private response by clicking on "reply by email" below. I got an automatic response from your email provider saying that I had to fill out a form in order get your permission to get through your email spam filter. So I clicked on the button to fill out the form, but I got a response which said that there is a system error and I could not get to the form, but it would tell me more about your email provider. I used to have the same problem. But my son and daughter in law both work for Google. They advised me to try Gmail, so I did. It is WONDERFUL. Of course, I am biased :-) so you can't trust me. Interestingly enough, Gmail has a fantastic spam filter built, with no need to tweak it up for yourself. I get lots of email, but only about one spam message a month gets into my inbox. The rest automatically go into my "spam file". Every few weeks I look through it to see if there are any "real" messages in it. There never are. In other words, Gmail's automatic spam filter works almost perfectly, and it does not require any of the old-time requirements such as having people apply to you to be let through the spam filter. In any case, I am NOT advising you to try Gmail. I am merely letting you know that it exists, and that it is free. I have tried, AOL, Yahoo, and a number of other email providers and Gmail. IMHO, none of them come close to Gmail, on all counts. You might consider just trying it out to check for yourself. If you do, I'll bet that you switch in a week (two weeks max if you are a real conservative)Hope that helps. While my son and daughter in law work for Google, neither they nor I get anything for suggesting you try Gmail, or if you actually sign up for it. All I get is the satisfaction of knowing that I provided good info to a friend.Enjoy.
    Mel
    Mel Measure your output in smiles per board foot. 

13. 
    Hastings | May 07, 2009 05:05pm | #18

    Hello Mel:I did indeed receive your email and I sent a reply thanking you for it. (You obviously did not get it). I also added your email address to my spam blocker so the problem will not recur.I have had a gmail address for many years, but I hardly ever use it because everyone uses my "mindspring" address and it has become my de facto default address.Perhaps you could send me another test and ignore the blocker; I will check.Regards,Hastings

14. 
    9619 | May 07, 2009 05:20pm | #19

    Hastings,
    I will send you another email message as a test. Meanwhile, hop on the thread "Jointer plane question? Marcou" and answer the question I sent Ray. (please do not take it seriously. Ray certainly won't. And the chances of attaining my goal are nonexistent. :-)Thanks for letting me know you got my message.
    MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.