I have a Delta 37-190 6″ jointer that I picked up used, with no manual. It’s in fine shape but I decided it was time for sharpened knives. I can not for the life of me free the bolts that hold the knives in place. They have been soaked in repeated applications of both WD-40 and Liquid Wrench, they have been firmly tapped with a mallet and block of hardwood, they have been heated with a torch (but not too much, too close to the knives) and no luck. The head of the bolts seems to be 5/16″, though the wrench feels a little sloppy – as does the 8mm wrench. I am in danger of rounding over the heads. My next step, barring a miracle, is to remove the entire drum and go at the bolts with a hacksaw, which I really don’t want to do.
Oddly, the first bolt (closest to the front of the machine) on each of the three knives came loose easily. The machine had a little bit of rust, but not much, when I got it. Anyone have a miracle suggestion? Thanks.
Replies
What I have done is if I can get one free then I tighten it back up and try to free the next one until all are loosened. Other than that I have done what you are doing. Just let the penetrating oil sit for a few days and hopefully it will work.
I really don't have any miracle suggestions, other than to use the best quality wrench you can as they seem to fit better and round bolts less. (I was a mechanic in racing for many years and have a good set of tools that seem to make a difference)
I guess my most important point is to let you know you are not alone, I think most of us have been through this once or twice. I sharpen my own knives so I take them out more frequently which helps keep the bolts from locking up.
Good luck!
Tom Hintz
Because there is always more to learn!
I've had good luck with penetrating oil and an impact wrench with a good quality socket on it.
I think John W addressed this not too long ago in a different thread. I can't remember what he said but it impressed me at the time as good advice. Maybe he'll chime in here and reiterate for us. I'd look back through the posts but I've got to get some sleep.
Well, I guess if you have gotten one out, you should already know this, but in some machines, where backing out the the threads tightens the head against the inside of the slot. Consequently, you need to turn the head clockwise to loosen the gibs.
I don't know if this is the case for your machine.
dgreen is right, John White helped someone else out on this issue. Before doing anything drastic, I'd suggest finding that thread. Glad to help a little later one, but gotta go right now.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If you have access to an air impact wrench they work wonders. Be sure you use an impact socket.
I had a problem with my Delta planer where the poly-V pulley on the blade drum kept coming loose. I couldn't get it tight with a regular wrench, so I finally pulled out the air impact wrench and set the air at 90 psi and let it do it's thing. The nut has stayed on the shaft ever since. I'm a believer.
I use it on my car restoration quite a bit, so I know how well it loosens nuts and bolts.
...except for the fact that you can't put a socket over these. They're wedged between the lock bars and the cutterhead.I've had similar issues with jointer lock screws. Soaking for several hours with Liquid Wrench or Kroil may be more effective than a silicone like WD-40. It may also help to tighten the screw slightly , then loosen it. If you can find a "brake line wrench" in that size that will fit (two big "ifs") that would give you more contact surface. If the screws are cheap and available from Delta or Ace Tool Repair, cutting them off with a dremel abrasive wheel or similar is a great option. Check first though because some use a special and/or expensive screw, and your safety may depend on using the OEM item.Pete
Edited 8/24/2006 1:50 pm ET by PeteBradley
Just a thought if you have do drill the screws out look for a set of drill bits with a reverse cutting direction these will help loosen the screw instead of tighting them further.Good luckTroy
Same clarification applies to drilling as it does to sockets. You can't access the top of the head of these screws while they're in place.
Pete
Am I to assume you have to use an open end wrench then? Have you tried putting an extension (piece of pipe) on the end of the wrench? Also try hitting that pipe with a dead blow hammer or mallet, the impact does help.
You assume correctly. I'm actually not the original poster. Just someone speaking from past experience.
Pete
Pete is correct, the only way to get a tool on this bolt is through the narrow slot - an open end wrench is my only option. Leverage isn't the issue - the wrench slips past the bolt head first. I will try to acquire a 5/16" wrench with closer tolerances - perhaps my 20 year old Craftsman is a little sloppy, though that seems unlikely.
I've looked through the archives for an old thread addressing this issue but haven't found it - does anyone remember the subject line? Thanks - the frustration continues!
I don't know if this will help or not, but Craftsman has a new wrench that is open ended and looks like a C on the end, it's supposed to grip and not round off the edges of the hex head. I have a set but I can't say that I have put them to the test yet. This may be the solution if they work, they are also longer than the standard open end wrench so you get even more leverage.
Good luck.
The other thread that I remember is:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=863.1
It references a different knife arrangement though so it's not relevant here.
The only other suggestions that I can makeare in the "Mr. Badwrench" category:
1. Sears used to make small spring-loaded pliers that had parallel jaws at any diameter. They're made of laminated sheet metal and have teeth. You get a narrow jaw, a lot of torque, and low slip. No guarantees of not destroying the screw, but I've had good luck in a few desperate situations. Sears changes suppliers constantly though and they didn't show mine on their web site so it may be discontinued.
2. Soak the whole blade in liquid wrench and use a mallet and screwdriver or similar to try to knock the knives sideways out from behind the bars. With one screw loose you might get lucky.
If all else fails, cut them off as close to the head as possible so you have a prayer of twisting the stubs out of the bars. Use a good-quality pair of small channellocks or similar to twist them out, as cheap pliers and vise-grips will slip.
Pete
If these screws are like the ones in my Delta, they do not actually scrw into anything but rather just expand to press the blade support/holder tight against the side of the slot. If it comes to it, cutting them will not be a big deal, though maybe a little time consuming.
I'd pack the ends of the slot with pieces of rag to keep the metal debris off the bearings but other than that, it shouldn't be bad.
I'd also be careful heating them as they are already expanded to keep the knife tight. Getting them hot enough to expand a little further might actually make things worse.
I really wish I had an answer for this, to help you and to make a million bucks selling this little miracle!Tom Hintz
Because there is always more to learn!
Actually, rather than use a dead blow hammer, I'd use a small steel hammer to hit the wrench - you actually want the extra-sharp energy spike that a steel hammer's "ring" gives you to help break the bolt loose. I seem to remember that a dead blow hammer gives you a slower rise, which may be one reason that it doesn't't dent wood as badly as a steel hammer.
My theory behind using heat is that if rust is the issue the expansion and subsequent contraction due to heat might be enough to break the rust bond but not do any permanant alteration to the part. Could I be doing damage? The torch was applied for maybe 5 seconds per bolt - I think it should be fine.
My next idea is to use some silicon adhesive to attach some .005" brass stock to the interior face of the wrench. Maybe a tighter mechanical bond with a soft material will give me the grip I need? Worth a try - otherwise I have a brand new hacksaw blade.....
Heat might help, just be careful. i was a mechanic for many years and often used heat on stuck fasteners, however, we almost always applied the heat to the nut to expand that from around the threaded fastener. It would be difficult to focus the heat on the nut in this case. Perhaps a couple heat/cool cycles will help break the bond though. It's worth a try, especially when everything else is failing.Tom Hintz
Because there is always more to learn!
I understand, You might also try "freeze" spray, basically an airisol can that you spray the liquid propellant out and this freezes the offending nut to help you break it loose. Good luck, what a pain in the kester.Troy
Just an idea ....
I have never tried this ... but have thought about when you use heat up steel you are expanding the bolt diameter... I suspect that the reason heat works is it "shears" the bits of rust gripping the threads that are keeping the bolt from turning as the steel of the bolt expands. So..... how about a knot of dry ice (handle carefully) just on the bolt head ... use cold to shrink the steel of the bolt. Maybe at the same time a little heat on the sourrounding metal.
I think that I was thinking about this a couple years ago when I was trying to undo the knives on a beautiful old 6" Delta jointer. Believe that I ended up taking the drum out and giving the whole thing to a machinist to work over. I also couldn't get replacement screws for this jointer cause I broke off a couple heads. Do what you can to save the parts.
Another try might be to add vibration ... such as from one of those name engraving pens.. and continuse to work over with heat, cold, oil, and curses.
Good Luck
Edited 8/25/2006 3:15 am ET by Homebuilder1
Well, one thing led to another.....
Gaining access to the head meant taking off the outfeed table, which meant taking the machine off the base. Sooooo..... since it was that far apart I figured I might as well strip the whole machine down and tune it up. I've determined that the Dremel tool with a tiny cutoff wheel is the way to go but it'll be a few days. It appears that at some point the previous owner went through a lot of very sappy stock - there were gummy old buildups on interior surfaces. It makes me wonder if a bunch of sap, worked in and heated up, is what's keeping the bolts from coming out.
I'd be more concerned about the dry ice than the heat. My guess is anything cold enough to shrink steel would also make it brittle, which isn't the opportune time for applying force. If I can't find bolts I guess I could buy them from Delta - might have to buy jibs to get the bolts, which will make me cranky (crankier).
I have a load of maple just aching to be a workbench - I want my jointer! Thanks for all the suggestions - nice to get so much throughtful feedback so quickly.
The dremel and cut off wheel is the way to go. Heat is not a good option. The first thing to try always is a good quality wrench. The stock wrenches are poor at best. Cutting half way through the bolt will loosen it enough to remove the bolt and they are pretty inexpensive to replace. Can't imafine how someone could suggest an impact wrench.
Redwood Curtain,
You are right about cold making steel more brittle but in this case I don't think that will happen. You won't be able to get enough dry ice in that small clearance area to cause that to happen. My thought is if you could cause that bolt temp to drop 20 or 30F you might have enough dimensional change to make things a little looser. Or perhaps alternate between hot and cold. Also you might look up your jointer parts diagram on the internet and be sure you can get replacements before you get too frisky. I was "surprised" to find Delta no longer stocked my knife bolts.... and they are an odd size. If I lived near a big city that might not be a problem to get new ones.Good Luck and let us know how you got them loose....Are you in N. CA?
Edited 8/25/2006 1:57 pm ET by Homebuilder1
Well, the darned thing us up and running well - I'll finish tuning it up tomorrow. I waited for $14 worth of bolts arrived from Delta, then went at it. By this time I had freed 4 of 12 bolts, and with a few more days of sitting in liquid wrench I was able to get two more.
I went at the 6 other bolts with a 1/32 cutoff wheel in a Dremel, cutting a little bit on each one to avoid heat. There was so little thread showing that I wanted to go through the bolt heads, but soon discovered that the maximum diameter of the only cutoff wheels I had would only get about 7/8 of the way through the head. Grrrrrrr. Fortunatly the bolt head was slightly rounded, so I ended up cutting 2 or 3 kerfs per bolt through the head. Then an ugly combination of pliers and screwdrivers finally got the damned things out.
Final diagnosis: these were tightened by someone who had somethng to prove. When they finally came out they came out clean. I have no idea how someone was able to get that much force applied. On the good side I stripped down, rebuilt, and now truly understand my jointer, which is all good.
And yes, I'm in N CA - Humboldt County.
Nice job. Have you joined http://www.owwm.com yet? Sounds like you're ready for the next project. ;-)Pete
"I have no idea how someone was able to get that much force applied.'He most likely drank some gorilla milk that morning instead of the usual sweet acidophilus.
"I have no idea how someone was able to get that much force applied." Gorilla milk inspired him to pick up a 6' pipe to slip over the 3"-long wrench. A torque addict no doubt.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I feel your pain. Been there with an old 6" noname. I also had the weird feeling 5/16 or 8mm wrenches didn't quite fit tight. I ended up grinding open a 7mm a bit, just a bit.
If you can go ahead and remove the drum. I'd really recommend putting it into a bag with lots of liquid wrench and putting it into the freezer for a full day, 2 if you can wait. It takes that long to really effect metal. The lock nuts will shrink tighter onto the bolt BUT the bolt will shorten. Yep these movements are teeny tiny but they could prove useful. Here's the other thing. When you pull the drum out of the freezer it will start warming up. The nuts will warm up faster than the bolt because they are on the outside.
Either way I think patience and perseverance will win out over cutting them off and risk damaging the drum and knives.
Just to close the loop, here's the thread, but it was a slightly different problem. John's response is followed by an explanation of how the poster successfully released the screws:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=30590.1
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I had the same problem a few years ago when I bought an old planer. The cutterhead , bolts and knives were rusted. I tried everything I could think of. I mention my problem to a friend who ran a feed mill. He reached up on a shelf and handed me a spraycan of B'LASTER. It is manufactured by B'LASTER /B.C.C.I., Cleveland , Ohio, 1-800-858-6605. I soaked the screws with it overnight and was able to loosen them all in about three tries. Your problem may be caused by someone trying to remove the screws by turning the wrong direction.
But wait, there's more!
Here is yet another solution to your problem in living color on page 13 of American Woodworker (September 2006 issue - sorry FWW). ((1) be sure that you know which way the bolt turns ) 2) take a NEW center slender center punch (i.e., one with a sharp point) and place said point on the corner of the soft gib nut/bolt head. 3) Smartly rap the center punch with a small ball-peen hammer, causing the nut/bolt head to rotate. (in the loosening direction, of course), and....Voila! A slightly dented, but LOOSE gib nut/bolt head. :)
Thanks Mike .... thats another good way. I ultimately had a machinist help me with my problem after snapping of a couple of bolt heads. But I think any of us working with machinery will have "stuck" fastener problems and any or all of these solutions will help. Been a good discussion. Not sure I would have had the clearance to get a punch in there .... but maybe a junker slender chiesel reground with a cold chiesel point?????
Yeah, never understimate the power of a cold chisel in tough situations. It's generally not an option for fasteners you want to get out alive of course. One last suggestion, though it wouldn't have applied here. You can get a hand impact driver that works very similarly to the air version. It looks like a cylinder with a drive or socket on one end. You whack the back end with a hammer and it simultaneously pushes in and turns the socket. Awesome for some tough situations (rusty brake disk screws come to mind).Pete
Been here, done this (Old Delta-Beaver). Firstly if the bolts won't come loose and you've already worked at them a lot, they probably slightly rusted, and they are now rounded - so new bolts are a must at this point anyway. You can actually hacksaw the heads off without pulling the cutter head (although it's fairly easy).
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