For years I have used a bench top jointer to flatten boards and I am considering switching to a jointer plane (hand powered)rather than invest in an 8″ jointer. The idea of no noise and the tactile sensation of working with a plane is very appealing. So, is it difficult to surface stock using a jointer plane? After looking a LN and Veritas I noticed there are #7, #8 and low angle, which would you recommend? Thanks, Bill
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1) You need a solid bench, you have one right?
2) You need winding sticks. If you don't have them make them. Do a search if you don't know what they are.
3) Either a #7 or a # 8 would do, depends on the size of the work. Big is better for bigger work. Will be followed with smaller planes anyway (smoothers like a #4). Low angle is a different animal...
4) If you have a lot to do, get in shape, join a gym :-)
I too am interested in feedback specifically from those who have used the low angle jointers that are available. I like my low angle jack plane from LN so much that I might want the same thing in a jointer. I think the irons would be interchangeable, plus there is a significant difference in cost, although that is secondary. Somewhere I read the the low angle jointer is easier to use and keep square to the edge because of the lower center of gravity. What do you think? Lee Valley's looks good too.
Over the last year or so, I've gone completely Neaderthal (among other things, got real tired of the noise, spending more time setting up power tools and jigs, and cleaning up afterwards, than doing the actual work....). I normally do the flattening and surface finishing with the traditional four (scrub, jack, jointer, smoother). Included in my arsenal of planes are all three of LN's LA bench planes. The LA jointer, for me at least, is something of a specialty plane. It does a credible job of flattening run-of-the-mill/easy-to-work woods (my #8 seems to do a better and faster job on these types of boards....), but where it really shines is with difficult grained woods and knots. Here, I set it for a very light shaving (.001 - .002 inch); with the low angle and the bevel up configuration, it slices through gnarly grain and knots like a hot knife through butter, usually with no tear out. I don't yet have any York pitch planes, so I don't have any experience with how well they work on difficult grain, although I do have a couple of Chinese style high angle (60 degree) smoothing planes. I haven't really gotten the knack of using them yet, and the results, so far, have been just so-so. More practice is in order....
Anyway, where the LA jointer won't cut without tear out, I've had good luck with LN's LA adjustable mouth block and 102 LA bronze block planes -- following the flow of the grain as much as possible -- and where that fails, with a cabinet scraper. Needless to say, when using the block planes or scraper, you have to be careful not to plane a dip into your board. Yes, it takes longer, but you have a lot more control over what happens to the board with a hand plane (and other hand tools) than with power tools.
I don't have any experience with the LV LA jointer, although it seems that the adjustable mouth would be a useful feature that the LN LA jointer doesn't have. The adjustable mouth feature on the LN LA jack and smoother is a definite plus, especially for cranky grain.
If you decide to surface and flatten your wood this way, be prepared for a good upper body workout. The first couple of times you do this, your arms will let you know that you have abused them. But, you get used to it pretty fast. I find the lack of noise and dust to be most pleasant and relaxing. There's nothing quite like cutting paper-thin shavings and trueing up a board while listening to Bach or Vivaldi!
Sorry for the long, drawn-out posting here. Hope that this of some use to you.
Edited 12/7/2005 11:29 am ET by pzgren
Thanks. That good of an answer takes many words, and I appreciate your taking time to share them. I recently jointed some 24" edges with my LA jack plane used in the shooting board configuration. The result were good, but I haven't figured out exactly how to grip the plane while doing this. I plan to build a proper shooting board next, and that should be a help. My planes are all L-N, but the LV jointer might have to be an exception.
Folks, I don't quite know how to say this , but I believe quite firmly that there is an ever increasing obsession with planes having to have adjustable mouths, and the gap being closed down so far that shavings thicker than one thou will not pass. I am saying that even at 20thou you will get the same result, especially with a bevel up with high cutting angle like 50* plus-so why turn a good plane into a scraper? A plane must make shavings and a dedicated scraper plane makes wispy thin scrapings.
I am not prepared to be shot at dawn for this belief, as I am innocent, and like to get the job done with maximum enjoyment, minimal time and effort, using the most appropriate tool.
However, since these days I am in plane-making mode, I am racking my brain as to how to manufacture an adjustable mouth on a plane whose body is formed from gauge plate and or steel sides joined by dove tails-just to please the certified planeophile, you understand. And there is another thing-will I make something that breaches some turkey's patent rights?
Forgive me , I have digressed.Philip Marcou
<<Folks, I don't quite know how to say this , but I believe quite firmly that there is an ever increasing obsession with planes having to have adjustable mouths, and the gap being closed down so far that shavings thicker than one thou will not pass.>>
Is this "obsession" with adjustable mouth planes really new? ;) It seems to me that most metal planes have effectively had an adjustable mouth for well over a century. Think adjustable frog here. A bit more recently -- a couple of years newer than adjustable frogs, perhaps -- have there been planes with an adjustable shoe in front of the iron. Regardless of method, the end result has been the same: close the adjustable shoe or move the frog forward, you have the same thing -- a smaller slot through which the iron protrudes and through which shavings move.
How small should the mouth opening be? It seems to me that the mouth opening should be the size that gets you the results you need/want. If a 3/16th inch wide mouth opening (to take one extreme) works, then there is really no NEED to go smaller (personal preference may be something altogether different here...); on the other hand, if the only way to get the desired results is a .001 opening (to take the other extreme), then that's what you need to use.
<<I am not prepared to be shot at dawn for this belief, as I am innocent, and like to get the job done with maximum enjoyment, minimal time and effort, using the most appropriate tool.>>
I totally agree with you here. The whole idea is to get the board flat, square, and smooth (and then turn it into something useful and/or pretty). Being able to enjoy the process as well as the result is a really desirable bonus, in my view. There are many ways to accomplish the same end result, so, does it REALLY matter what road you take or which tool you use to get there?
Just my nickel's worth [5 p for you blokes what have non-colonial money... ;) ]
<<However, since these days I am in plane-making mode, I am racking my brain as to how to manufacture an adjustable mouth on a plane whose body is formed from gauge plate and or steel sides joined by dove tails-just to please the certified planeophile, you understand. And there is another thing-will I make something that breaches some turkey's patent rights?>>
When you figure this out, might I suggest that you also turn it into a kit ala Sheppard or St James Bay. As a certifiable planeophile, I'll be at the head of the line to get one of these here new-fangled adjustable mouth, dovetailed, infill planes. Just think, you could be the world's first infill billionaire.... (Tongue firmly planted in cheek)
I have finished racking my brains, and believe I have a practical solution as to how to provide a readily adjustable gap in front of the blade. I intend to make it shortly after Christmas-are you ready to put your money where your mouth is? (I hope this is not categorised as an advert-I am simply rising to a challenge).Philip Marcou
Philip, Come on, now, I DID say "tongue firmly planted in cheek."
But on a more serious note, I saw, in another thread, the metal plane you recently build (the one with the silver name plate); all I can say about it is: absolutely beautiful work!!!
I would like to see what you've come up with for your solution. And if you don't intend to dig TOO deep into my wallet, I'll give some very serious thought into taking you up on your offer. (And no, this is NOT a commission for you to build one specifically for me, at least not yet!)
So, let me know, and we'll see what happens. Fair enough?James
<<Thanks. That good of an answer takes many words, and I appreciate your taking time to share them. >>
Thanks for the kind words. I hope that at least some of that was of use to you.
<<I recently jointed some 24" edges with my LA jack plane used in the shooting board configuration. The result were good, but I haven't figured out exactly how to grip the plane while doing this. >>
I haven't tried using my LA jack in shooting board mode. Usually, when jointing edges, I mount the board edge up, put my left thumb behind the knob (right hand on the tote) and wrap my fingers under the sole so that my first three fingers act as a sort of edge guide/fence along the board (I'm right-handed; if you're a left-handed, you might want to reverse hands). So far, that's given good results. I'll have to try your method. Thanks for the idea.
<<My planes are all L-N, but the LV jointer might have to be an exception.>>
Except for a Clifton shoulder plane, a new Stanley 90, and a 2003 vintage Stanley #6 that took ENTIRELY too much work to make usable, all of my new metal planes are also LNs; my vintage metal planes are all old Stanleys (mostly pre-Sweetheart), except for a Sargent VBM #8C. Some one posted earlier (in another thread) that buying one of Mr. Lie-Nielsen's planes was very unhealthy for the wallet; NO KIDDING!!! It's been all down hill since buying that first LN bronze 102 about two years ago....
Don't have any experience at all with the LVs, but have heard and read good things about them.
I don't yet have any York pitch planes, so I don't have any experience with how well they work on difficult grain...
perhaps I can shed some light here.... my L-N#7 is fitted with the standard pitch frog. To compliment this, I've fitted the york pitch frog to my #6...
Where the grain is well behaved stuff, there's little to choose between the two planes; the yprk pitch really comes into its own with highly figured boards. Although I can use the #7 to work difficult areas, I need to ensure that the blade is kept particularly sharp and that the throat is set pretty fine. Setting the blade to take a fine shaving is a must. The #7 has enough heft to it to drive its way through the figure... not something that's particularly easy on the arms at times...
By contrast, the #6 excells at figured grain... Where the #7 might cause some tear out, I can work quite freely with the #6 knowing that I'd need to take quite an aggressive cut before tearout will occur. With the plane set for a light to moderate cut I can forget about tearout and simply get on with the job... Like the #7, the #6 has more than enough heft to tackle a board with authority... Suffice to say that I'm woefully short of practice with my scrapers... thesedays I never have the need to use them.....Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Midnight,"Suffice to say that I'm woefully short"We don't care...your a fine man and that's what counts...lol...tis the season...
hmph.... ya can go off some people ya know..
;)Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Great comments, thanks. All of what you said makes very good sense.
I'm curious: was there a reason for putting the York pitch frog on your #6 instead of the #7?
James
James.. I bought the #6 initially because the #7 was just a bit too much tool for the boards I was working at the time; a pair of bookmatched sycamore boards with a huge shotgun wound on one edge. The grain around the embedded lead pellets was some of the wildest grain I've seen in a board; the only plane I had that could work it was my #4 1/2 which has the york pitch frog fitted to it... Fitting a 2nd high angle frog to the #6 seemed like the logical thing to do...
As I said earlier, it performed beyond my expectations; its heft in addition to the high angle took all the guess work out of bringing out the best in the figure. The #6 got me in the ball park without any tear-out... the #4 1/2 set for a whisper thin shaving really brought out the figure in the grain...
It dawned on me later that if a board I'm working is big enough to justify the #7, then it's big enough to use the #5 1/2 as an uber-smoother; both planes have the standard pitch frog making them ideal for grain that's behaving itself... The #6 and #4 1/2 make another natural pair... Those combinations seem to be working well in this latest project; highly figured elm panels set in oak frames... Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
So, is it difficult to surface stock using a jointer plane?
Short answer Bill... is no... only prob is by the time you get to using a jointing plane, most of the hard stuff is just about done...
Working a board from roughsawn stock, a jointing plane is only one of maybe 3 or 4 planes that you need to get the job done fairly quickly... that along with a pair of accurate winding sticks (as has been mentioned) and a good long straight edge...
To start out with, you need a plane capable of taking a fast, course cut... something with no frills that will rapidly cut some shape into the board, shape being getting rid of the worst of any high spots, cup, bow or twist... A scrub plane is about as good as it gets for this kinda work as they're brutally efficient...
Next step is to refine the shape; start the flattening process by using a good jack plane. Start out with it set for a course cut and work diagonally across the board in a kinda herringbone pattern. The plane will let you know when its time to readjust the blade to take a finer cut; the closer the board is to being flat, the more time the blade spends cutting rather than skipping over low spots... more time cutting rapidly dials up the effort required to drive the plane through each shaving...
Stick with the jack plane, but set it fine to start working along the length of the board once you're satisfied that the board's flat across its section... use your straight edge to see where the high spots are and focus your effort there until the board's looking pretty good along its length...
When you're at the point when you can hardly see light under your straight edge when checking along the boards length, that's the time to start using a jointing plane. Set the throat fairly fine and adjust the blade to take something close to a 2 thou shaving; anything thicker has a risk of causing tearout which is the last thing you want at this stage. Again, the plane will tell you when to adjust for a finer cut...
Last step is a finish smoother; throat set fine, blade razor sharp (remember to clip the corners of the blade to avoid tram lines) and set for a 1 thou shaving. Work with the grain, gradually progressing along its length until the whole board's looking glassy smooth. One last check with the winding sticks and straight edge should be academic... but check all the same just to be safe...
I can't stress highly enough that the planes are only part of the tools you need; those winding sticks and the long straight edge are vital throughout the whole process. Stop and use them frequently to check your progress; when starting out you'll be glad of the chance for a wee breather ;) Remember that your planes will only cut the high spots on the board; use the sticks to tell you where they are and focus your effort there...
As for preferred tools for the job, thesedays there's a lot of fine planes to choose from, Clifton, Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen being among the best... Personally, I use L-N's almost exclusively, sticking with their scrub plane, #4 1/2, #5 1/2, #6 and #7 with occasional use of a #62 depending on the nature of the grain... You don't need to get these all at once... You can do just about anything I've outlined above with just a jack and a jointer if you're prepared to continually adjust the tune of the jack plane to suit the particular task... If I were to work exclusively with the #7 I'd be reduced to a puddle in no time with the board just half done... its a bloody big lump to have to shove around all the time...
What's the advantage with handplanes...??? The first time you work aboard that's wider than your thickness planer should demonstrate that... Kiss width limits goodbye..
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike,thanks for the great information. I guess it is time to go shopping!
Bill.... forgive me if this is a blonde question, but are you up to speed with sharpening too....??Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike, I use a Tormek and water stones. Also, I already have the smaller planes but I was interested in the jointer plane rather than a mechanical jointer. I am curious though, if you begin with a S4S board, rather than rough, and wish to prepare one face in order to run the other through the planer do you find it is fairly quick with a hand jointer? Also, do you think there are any advantages to the low angle jointer offered by Veritas? Thanks again for all your help, Bill
Bill..... if you're stock is most of the way to being "fit for purpose" then yea.. working with the jointer alone would start to become a viable option... more so if you have a batch of spare blades for it, each ground to a slightly different profile (cambered for intermediate weight cuts, slightly cambered for finish flattening and dead straight with corners clipped for finish smoothing)... But like I said, putting that amount of time into a board working with that kinda weight aint gonna be fun... greasy puddle or Popeye.... one way or another you'll notice a difference in your physique.. Beats going to the gym huh...???
As for the LA jointers... Of the 2 that are available right now, I reckon the one to go for would be the Lee Valley plane, simply because of its adjustable throat... Mechanically there's probably the same amount of twiddly bits to fiddle with as on a traditional bevel down plane, they're just arranged differently... They weigh pretty much the same as a bevel down too give or take an ounce or two.
To my mind, the biggest advantage I can see that a LA plane has is the ability to change attack angle through changing the angle you hone the blade at. Bevel up planes need to use either a steeper frog or back bevels to alter the attack angle.
I haven't used a low angle jointer myself, but a few friends that have have reported favourably on the Lee Valley, and these guys aren't easily impressed.. If I were starting over again I'd have to give it serious consideration as there's a significant cost difference between it and the L-N #7 that I've opted for (and am delighted with too)...
I'd best shaddup before I get any closer to sounding political with my answers.. ;)Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike, thanks again for all your help.
anytime...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Could you point me somewhere to learn the difference between cambering and clipped? Does cambering differ from using the adjustment lever on the plane?
Does cambering differ from using the adjustment lever on the plane?
nooo no.. camber is all in how you hone the blade; the adjustment lever shouldn't come into play. Clipping's the easier of the two. All you're doing is removing the outer corners of the blade by honing a tight radius at each corner to let the cut flare out before it hits the edge of the blade, the idea being to avoid making tram-line witness marks in the board.
Camber is the term for honing a mild to gentle radius into the blade. Generally speaking, the greater the camber, the deeper the cut... the exception being when cambering blades for bevel up planes where a greater degree of camber is required in order to have any effect on the shaving... Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Our good friends at L-N have a few VHS tapes left of Rob Cosman & David Charlsworth at $5 a piece. Shipping is around $3.
An absolutely amazing bargain.
Family Man
I just checked the LN website and could not find this offer. Could you provide a URL? Thanks
Just call L-N. I got a flyer with my last order. Some of the titles are sold out already.
I think its important to name planes correctly to avoid confuision. Jointer planes don't/shouldn't do surface work. Jointer planes are designed for making edge joints, not leveling or smoothing surfaces. If a jointer plane is what you want, choose the absolute longest plane you can get. Wooden planes have the advantage in this regard because they can get very long and not be too heavy. So for example, my jointer is 30" or 34" long (something like that).
Sounds like what you want to do is flatten/level planes. You know, I wrote an article for Popular Woodworking last year (Aug 05 #149) that may help you. I guess there are two things I want you to know: 1) tool manufacturers and magazine authors benefit from your confusion on this subject (and that's not the same as saying they confuse folks on purpose, tho it sometimes seems like they do to me) 2) everything works better if you use it for the purpose for which it was designed. (narrowly defining a tool is a bad move for a tool manufacturer. We generally see value in multi-purpose, thus the Stanley #45 which I think is an abomination).
But to answer your question, I think you need only three planes:
1) a decent smoother- If you're willing to spend a little time, you can get one on ebay for $10. Otherwise, I think its wise to buy a short, small plane from any of the reputable (they all seem reputable to me, but you judge for yourself) new plane manufacturers. The new plane manufacturers focus on fine shavings in difficult woods- not an appropriate goal for all planes, but good for smoothers.
2) A fore/jack plane- get either a wooden plane for $10 or the worst/cheapest/rustiest #5 or #6 you can get and use it as is (after sharpening the iron of course). An expensive roughing plane is a crime in my opinion.
3) A try plane- get the longest try plane you can. A #7 will work, but you'll get flatter work with a longer plane. My try plane is 28" long. I think I bought it on ebay for $20 or so. But don't search for "try plane". Nobody seems to call them that anymore.
Just so you know, my preference is for wooden planes and I don't work with exotic or highly figured woods. If you work with difficult woods, feel free to disregard my views.
Feel free to e-mail me if you have any questions. (I still haven't got the hang of KNOTS).
Adam
If you are new to the world of hand planing, one of the best investments you could make is to purchase the DVD "Rough to Ready" by Rob Cosman available from Lie Nielsen.
I have all four of Cosman's DVDs and found them worth every penny.
Chris
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