How many of you guys actually use Japanese saws and chisels and got hands on experience??
They seem a little more expensive than traditional western tools, but are they worth it ?? They come in different qualities, HSS steel, blue steel, white steel chisels, different kind of sawblades, exchangeable, double-sided, singles-sided etc. etc.
I’m considering buying a Royba saw and some chisels, but wonder if it’s worth the extra money.
I’m in Europe, and found this web-site carrying Japanese tools.
Appreciate your opinion !
…. I Love the smell of sawdust in the morning….
Replies
I have a Japanese Ryobi saw and three Japanese chisels, all of which I use regularly. I like the saw, which has no back, because I can get into tight joints and make them meet; also it is just a handy saw to have around the shop with a rip type blade on one side and a crosscut on the other. While I have seen these saws sell for about 250 $US many can be had for about 50 $US. I also use a Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw and like it a lot but it is about 125 $US.The Japanese chisels are another matter;in my opinion, they are over rated and entirely too costly for what they are worth. I paid about 35-40 $US each for mine, though one can pay a lot more. They also have much shorter blades that make using a typical honing guide to sharpen them, an impossibility.
I have some some lower priced production chisels that I got at Home Depot (US average grade hardware) that I prefer to use rather than the Japanese chisels. I also recently got some European Hirsch chisels ( same as Two Cherries)which I haven't used that long but so far they are great. If I had to buy another chisel today, I would buy another Hirsch and I will probably never buy another Japanese chisel.
One man's experience and opinion!
I use japanese saws and chisels and I love them . I cut most of my dovetails with a Lie Nielson Idependence back saw. However, for small DTs like on jewelry box drawers I'll use a fine tooth dozuki (japanese back saw). I have several in both rip and cross cut by various makers. As for chisels , I use two sets of marples 1 blue chip and 1 with the cushioned handles at 25 and 35 degrees respectively,these are my beat-em-up chisels. For serious chisel work joinery,paring,fitting I use the japanese chisels exclusively. IMHO they cut cleaner,are more responsive, take a better edge and hold up much better when working with hard or abrasive exotics . I use blue steel striking chisels in dovetail style for most malleting work in hard woods and exotics and white steel striking chisels for soft and domestic hardwoods (striking chisels are the ones with the hoops on the handles) For paring I use japanese paring chisels (they have long handles,called push chisels, not meant for striking) in various styles - dove tail,thin and extra thin. Over the years I have used many chisels vintage to contemporary American and European and to Me the Japanese chisels are the best. Now dont get me wrong, I'm not saying if they're Japanese they're great, I've encountered some jap crap just as I have some domestic and European crappola. With The japanese tools generally, if you stay with the known names : Nishiki, Fujihiro,Funahiro, Iyroi, Mitsukawa etc. You'll likley end up with a product you wont regret. Again I love these tools for the way they have served me. For me they feel better work better and yes they are a bit more expensive,however I believe if one can appreciate the degree of difference in performance and can afford it then they can justify the expense . Gene
I'm a little confused with the different types of steel they use for the chisels. Is blue steel better than white steel?? You even see HSS steel. You find all 3 types of steel in different price-categories !?? Some are more brittle than others and it might depend on the kind of work you do - you write blue steel for hard woods and white steel for soft and domestic wood !?
Ole.... I Love the smell of sawdust in the morning....
I've never understood the "hype" used to market J chisels in the West wit the blue vs white steel. Over here in Japan, most woodworkers would have no idea what the exporters are talking about, blue/white. what is important (for me at least) is to be able to see that the chisel is made from two different steels, hard and soft. On a hand forged chisel, that demarcation is quite easy to see.
About brittleness, that is, IMO, an user issue. If you use a thin paring chisel like a mortise chisel, of course you are going to chip the edge. Might a s well be using it to open paint cans. Paring chisels are for ..... paring thin slices.
Any Japanese tool with an edge (chisel, plane, marking knife, etc)which has been hand forged is an excellent tool to have and a joy to use. Saws are great. Love the little hammers. Their ink lines have chalk lines beat.
Now if I could only find forstner bits in the hardware stores. <g>
scott
The answer to your questions really require more than a simple reply in a forum such as this. I was merely giving some guidelines based on experience, some of the tools I favor and years of experience. I'll try to share some of what I have learned. First with regard to the white steel / blue steel issue. Both are harder than steel used in western tools (higher temper) however this makes them more brittle so if struckwith force,dropped on concrete or dinged on a vise jaw they would break so the makers laminate them to a softer iron to support the more brittle steel. think of a pencil lead surrounded by soft wood such as cedar. That is a simplification of the design of J chisels. Some are much more complicated with the steel being folded over and over again then being laminated , hence the higher cost (great skill and labor intensive). As for White or blue steel, Blue steel contains different elements producing a different grain structure in the steel. again this is a simplification. I was taught that blue steel being a more complex steel is harder to make into a functional chisel or edge tool hence being typically more expensive. The benefit is steel that although brittle is more resistant to edge deformation (dulling) , which is why I use it on hard exotic woods. White steel , while not quite as brittle takes a somewhat keener edge hence my choice for paring chisels . As far as the color names, it is my understanding that it actually comes from the color of the paper the steel is shipped in to the various makers. I suggest that you do some additional research and experimentation. A good place to start is "The Japan Woodworker", "Toolsforworkingwood.com" and "Japanese woodworking forum" These are all web pages and sites, great folks, great products and exceptional service. Good luck and Happy Woodworking, Gene
Hi ORH
Started using Japanese saws twenty years ago and love them because of their flush tooth pattern and cutting on the pull stroke for a thin kerf. Most good quality Japanese tools use Rockwell hardness of 60+ so they keep a sharp edge. I have had good luck with http://www.leevalley.com They have different grades of tools and will tell you which is which. Once you try a Dozuki you will throw out your back saw.
Mac
Before you embark down this road please review a good book on furniture history to acquaint yourself with the stunning works produced with Western style woodworking tools.
Check out this site:
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/
Lots of what you are looking for. I really like the japanese chisels, but don't have a lot to reference them against. I like them MUCH better than the marples blue chip chisels. I have used some of the japanese saws and think they are great. Many have a very fine kerf. I bet you wouldn't be disappointed with a quality ryoba! Go for it.
Dustin
Hi Ole,
I don't have very much experience with Japanese tools, I only use three saws and just got a simple hand plane. As for the saws, I really like them and think they are better than the typical European saws which are available today. Of course, Lie Nielsen, Thomas Flinn, Adria, ... might be an exeption but these saws are no way cheaper than the Japanese types. I know that old Western saws can be refreshed and tuned and some people assure that these saws are at least as good as Japanese saws. While this might be true I'm not the one who is really interested in sharpening and tuning handsaws so I bought a simple Japanese saw and I'm quite happy with it. My first saw came from Magma http://www.magma-tools.de/ and was a Douzuki. A few weeks ago I bought the set from Dieter Schmid http://www.fine-tools.com/sonder.htm and I like the saws, too. The Douzuki is easiear to handle for a beginner IMO.
I can really recommend Dieter Schmid's store, excellent service, good prices and he also has some nice forums (one in English and three in German).
Another store which is highly regarded is Dick http://www.dick-gmbh.de/, but I've never dealed with them.
Hope this helps,
Christian
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