I was watching Norm the other day and he did something on the NWY that I want to ask you all about. He was ripping a board in half, say a 1×4 about 2 ft long on the table saw. He used a push stick to push the peice through, which is good, but what he did next surprised me. After the cut was made, with the saw still running, he reached over the blade with his left hand and removes the cut off peice. Is this safe to you all? In my shop I never, I mean never remove a peice of wood with the saw running. I have a foot switch rigged up on my saw and after the cut is made, I turn the saw off and only when the blade is completely stopped, do I remove the wood. After reading the table saw accidents on here the past few months, I am even more careful. What do you think?
Edited 2/6/2004 8:42:50 AM ET by Dalewood
Replies
I reckon it would need a silver sawblade to harm him ;-) Must admit it doesn't sound that safe...
Scrit
I'm a bit reluctant to make any references to Norm. Other folks who participate in these forums can be pretty defensive of him.
I'm with you. I never get my hands near the blade or lean over the saw until the blade has stopped. I'm no saint, though. I rarely use the guard, I wear eye protection, and no doubt, its made me somewhat complacent.
Paying attention to where your body parts are in relation to ANY spinning blade is the most important safety factor, (Norm).
They often show Norm starting rip cuts but usually pull the camera away just as he gets into the danger area which is a disservice to the viewers. He should be discussing safety as he works, not just the contrived offering at the start.
I'm not a Norm basher but I think the show could be much more helpful. It's the same old techniques every week. Wish he would spend half a show going over his dust collection at each tool. Wish he would explain technique at the jointer instead of acting as if the jointer is automatic. He could sharpen a chisel, talk about different hand planes, lots of topics to give the viewer some variety. Guess they have a formula that works and they're sticking to it.
I also never reach to pick up a piece until the blade has stopped. Too easy to catch a corner or drop the piece onto the blade.
Ian
I agree. He does the same operations on every show. Jointer techniques and beginning turning techniques would be great.
I have to admit, I watch every show. Norm and This Old House got me into woodworking in a big way. My wife and I decided to build a new house after lots of Sundays watching TOH and I really enjoy making the projects on NYW.
I've also gotten myself too deep into Habitat for Humanity because of their shows.
I've just about finished building my own workshop. Now for some more tools!
I think a large part of NYW's income must be selling plans and accompanying videos. Maybe that's why he is less instructive and more demonstrative..?
CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
In a word, no.
Dalewood,
When I'm ripping one piece I always let the TS come to a complete stop before removing the wood form either side of the blade. However, when making several rip cuts, after each piece, I'll walk around to the outfeed table and, with my push stick, pull the stock all the way onto the outfeed table. Not as safe as turning off the saw, but I feel comfortable with this method.
Are you questioning because you want to modify your behavior or are you trying to lecture Norm? I hope this does not devolve into a multi-party rant about how unsafe some people are.
No, Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am relatively new into woodworking and my question was: Is this common practice among experienced woodworkers to remove peices from the table saw with it still running. I was not trying to lecture him as I enjoy watching his shows.
I guess it really comes down to your comfort level tempered by your experience (35 plus years on table saws). For repetitive rips, I often use the push stick (I usually use 2 for narrow rips, one in each hand and the left hand one is fairly long) as you described to clear stock from the cut path while the saw is running. I've never had a kick back doing this. For production work, I've just put a box on a small sawhorse under the end of the outfeed table and let them drop but you'd better have a clean, smooth outfeed for this.
My experience is that if you do something like this with confidence, you're fine. Also, a very will tuned saw is a safer saw and be in the habit of always setting the height of the blade the same relative to your work, you'll know where it is.
Nonetheless, for all those who feel safer turning it off each time, do it with pride!
Norse
It all depends on a sense of self. You need to know where your body is relative to the sharp stuff.
Put a guard over the blade - I like a hold down.
I will push stock through and once it has cleared the back of the blade then I usually remove it even if the blade is still spinning. If the wood is well past the the back side of the blade and you pull the wood straight back away form the blade in a controlled motion then there is no problems. Also standing on the side or in the back of the saw not in the front is also much safer.
Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website
"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
IMO, it's a dangerous practice. Not to say I haven't done it, and I'm sure many WWers do on a regular basis, but it's not safe. After following a few "how I lost (or nearly lost) my fingers/hand, I've gotten more disciplined about not doing things patently unsafe.
Norm does other things that aren't safety-conscious, and gets reamed once or twice a year here at Knots for those. I enjoy watching his program, but don't model him on all his "techniques."
forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I almost lost my left thumb a few years ago, making that very same move (reaching for the offcut). The offcut vibrated gently into the back of the blade, and launched exactly like traditional kickback.
(What follows is my best guess, cuz it happened way to fast to see it).
The resultingly ragged piece of wood was launched, and the regged edge hit me in the thumb. The face of the thumb was ripped open, and the thumb was bent backwards. The resulting movement of the rest of the hand, caused my index finger to roll against the blade, but luckily it only took off skin.
The trip to the ER wasn't enough -- too many microscopic pieces of sawdust. I had a graft done a month or so later. Although I have complete use of the thumb, I don't have full feeling and sensation, due to damaged nerves.
NO, what Norm does on the TV is not always safe.
What probably has saved me from making the same mistake was seeing the results of an offcut kickback. I was cutting small pieces of oak off the end of a piece of stock. It was a while ago, but seems like I might have tried to "nudge" the little offcut away from the blade using the piece of stock in my hand. The offcut moved into the blade, kicked back and shattered the right side of the blade guard. Yikes! Gave me a quick and impressive lesson about the force behind the missle.forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I had the privileg, and appreciated it, of working in a large custom millwork shop in the early 70's with '90's machinery (1890's). I don't ever remember an accident or day off due to injury. All workers were old timers with all fingers. When OSHA came into law, all equipment had to be retrofitted with "safety" guards", which I felt made them more dangerous, but appeased the insurance company, the new equipment lobbyists and the Feds.
Maybe Norm is wrong to show this to the average idiot, but I hope the viewers of his show are above average. Does the Darwin theory still work without lawyers?
My latest purchase is a tractor and loader which has so many warning labels and safey interlocks, it could drive one crazy, but I feel safe knowing that it is lawyer approved (NOT!).
The point is that to make something completely idiot proof and lawyer proof, (which is a tall hurdle), you have to dumb down the equipment, add a bunch of safety stickers (which no one reads), make the machine less productive, more difficult to operate, with the result more dangerous.
I learned at an early age that if a machine or tool can cut steel and/or wood, fresh meat is a piece of cake, so keep your brain engaged, and use it with respect!
I reach across my blade, without a guard, but I know what I am doing and also the consequences of the wrong action! It's a learning curve that may be quite steep for some.
Ripping stock with a push stick, the part the push stick is pushing is still under your control after passing the blade, but the cut off piece is not. If you have enough reach (many of my students do not) and have a good sense of where the blade is and good footing, then in my opinion it's better to get that piece under control rather than let it fall unattended. Never try to grab the cutoff right next to the blade. Instead, reach past the blade and move it from there. I'll usually simply slide it back onto the table far left of the blade, then attend to the part still under the push stick. If you are ripping several pieces from the same board, then this is by far more efficient than turning off the saw after each cut and waiting for it to come to a stop.
Now remember to always pay attention to where that blade is. And never put either hand in any place where they might end up in the blade should something kick back.
My students are encouraged to work in teams, with one person feeding stock, and the other carefully managing both the cut piece and the cutoff after the cut. But they get tedious instruction in this, as it is important for the "catcher" to not steer or influence the boards' direction during the cut. Once both the cut and the cutoff are PAST the blade the catcher stacks the cut pieces, and passes the cutoff back to the other student.
4DThinker
I like Norm, but I guess I agree strongly with you on this one; as noted above, the workpiece can kick back, and hit your hand. But worse, it can pull your hand into the spinning blade if you're holding the workpiece. Grip is a reflex, and if a snafu occurs, you won't be letting go, you'll tighten your grip; even if you were to try to let go, there wouldn't be time.
In a recent post about such injuries, a fellow poster (SparrowHawk, I believe) was performing a rip cut with PUSHSTICKS for crying out loud and seriously injured his hand. IIRC, it happened so fast that he isn't even 100% certain how the accident occured, but the group concensus was that kickback took place, shoved the workpiece backward--rotating the pushstick toward the operator--and since the pressure on the pushstick was downward, the hand fell downward as the stick was pulled out from under it. His hand hit the spinning blade and...
So, the group opinion was that the lesson should be: never have any part of you past the blade while the tool is running.
Too many crazy possibilities. And I guess I still think that even if you have 40 years experience, one quick moment can get you if it's physically possible. But if you take steps to make sure it's not physically possible, then any errors happen to wood and not flesh (and blood.)
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
No it is not safe to reach past the blade to move the wood.
But ripping a hundred peices a day gives you practice, confidence and familiarity that breeds contempt. Yes I have and sometimes think nothing of it and other times cring as I realize what I just did. Since I have done it myself I can judge Norm but I don't condem him - his human.
Not sure if I can describe this with words but worth a try.
The sequence I have been using safely for 20 plus years ( I have all my fingers ) is as follows : As the cut finishes the heel of the push stick is used to give the dimensioned piece a little bit of a kick away to clear the blade. The next immediate action is to use the heel to kick the offcut to the left away from the blade area. At this stage it is quite safe to clear both pieces from the side of the saw.
On a hill by the harbour
A good splitter that's right behind the blade a curved to match goes a long way to making it a safer, but not necessarily safe! If the offcuts aren't slivers I just let the next piece push the offcut off the end of the outfeed roller table. The splitter keeps the offcut from getting into the back of the blade and getting pitched. I've poked the waste to the left with the pushstick too. When cutting small multiples I've used a blowgun and a laundry basket. The only time I shut down is when something is gone wrong and I need to stop mid-rip. I never try to pull the workpiece back through a spinning blade.
I've never been seriously hurt by a tablesaw. The supposedly kickback proof band saw got me once though. I was cutting a bunch of 1/4" x 1/4" x 1" square plugs on my Delta 14" BS using a mitre gauge. I was just letting them pile up when in an instant one of them fell into the throat plate opening and was wedged by the blade. The force somehow caused the plate to cock and pitch one of the square plugs ala tiddley wink back at me. It hit me square in the middle of the left lens on my safety glasses before I could even blink. I still cut these on a bandsaw, but with a crosscut sled.
Duplex head nails are really made for quickly stripping concrete forms. Many a framer thinks they're for wedging the guard open on a "77". I don't do that, but then again if I was a framer getting paid by the job I might. I love to cook and especially enjoy knife work so I have a nice collection of Henkels 5 Star top of the line knives. That doesn't mean I can or should even try to use them with the blinding speed I see on FoodTV. Norm's probably safe for Norm, but each has to develop their own comfort level with any technique.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
I saw that episode, too and knew it was unsafe but also realized that Norm has so much experience, in the shop and on the jobsite, that he can do safely what others cannot.
I began my woodworking hobby by building Norm's "garage workshop" with my brand new tablesaw.
I ordered the video with the plans and noticed in the video that Norm was not using a blade guard. So I promptly removed mine (which included a splitter and rivving knife) and proceeded to build the entire project over a two week period.
This was the first time I had ever used a tablesaw and I later realized by talking with folks on this board that I had gotten away with something.
Here's the really bad thing. Although I most always use the guard and splitter now.. I don't like to. The rivving knife is a bit out of whack and frequently "catches" the off cut past the blade causing me to have to shift my left hand over to hold the piece nearest the fense while I bend over and reach for the shut off.
If it wasn't for the fact that the guard helps deflect the sawdust down towards the dust port I probably wouldn't use it as often as I do.
Back to Norm.. that dude has cut, shaped and milled countless thousands of board feet of lumber and still has all ten digits. Unless or until that changes.. more power to him.
I won't comment as to whether or not Norm's practice is safe or not, since I didn't see the show. But for you the most important lesson is, "...I think it's unsafe---I won't do it." Chances are you will always be correct.
I agree that Norm is capable of looking out for himself after years of applying his craft. However, there should be some mention of his responsibility as a public figure and a teacher to set the correct example for his thousands (millions?) of students. I believe I read in one response that a fellow WW had removed his guard because he saw Norm do it in a video. Enough said!
I would like to note that in a world where reality TV is all the rage, NYW is the kind of reality that I would like to see more often. Keep the chips flying Norm, just do it safely!
-Dave
4DThinker
If I'm reading you right then what you are saying is that you have no run-off table at the rear of the sawbench. My slider has one as standard and even then I sometimes roll-in an auxilliary table as well because I feel that it is unsafe to allow any workpiece to drop when it's coming off the blade - added to which it can damage the melamine (when I'm cutting that rubbish)
Charlie
That accident with a push stick you quoted - would the push stick be of the "boomerang" pattern where your hand actually passes the blade? I use push sticks a lot and I find it hard to imaging how anyone got their hand that close to the blade with a push stick in it. I'd really like to know
BTW, if you use a Euro-style short rip fence there is a lot lower chance of a piece getting caught between the fence and the blade when you do
Scrit
I have been injured twice while using a tablesaw. Once about 20 years ago a peice of plywood pinched and kicked back shooting out and hit me square in the jewels so hard that I couldn't even reach up off the floor to shut off the saw for a good few minutes. The other happened about a year ago, and again it was so fast that I can't really remember quite what happened, I was ripping thinstock and not using a push stick which was unlike me, I was tired, it was the end of the day and the last day on the job, and I was rushing.... all the stars lined up for an accident. Twelve stitches on the ends of my index and mid finger later I returned to work much more sober, awake and humbled. The main keys are to always be very clear headed, know where the blade is, know exactly where your body parts are, use push sticks, think about what you are doing at that moment (not about some song playing in your head), do not reach over a spinning blade, do not grab material to clear it away when it still is in touch with a spinning blade, and do a bit of research on the physics of what goes on with a tablesaw, understand what certain pressures will do...actions and reactions. Very importantly get or make yourself a zero clearance insert. Learn to recognize 'shop fatigue', and stop work when you have it.
I've seen Norm reach over the blade to grab the cutoff, and I didn't think it was the safest method of work.
I tell people that waiting for the blade to stop is "the most important 15 seconds of your life." Some people argue that it takes too much time. That's usually followed by "if you can't work safely in this shop, then you can't work in this shop."
John...know anybody with that scar on their leg or missing a thumb because they wedged the guard open on their Skil saw and it kicked back? I laughed out loud when I read that description! When I was younger and working with my dad during the summer, I watched guys on his crew do EXACTLY that with a "double-header" and I knew then it was a bad idea.
tony b.
Yes on the scar on the leg but it was a guy from work (engineer not a framer) who was working on his own house up in the mountains. He laid his thigh open and had to climb down from the rafters and drive to the hospital. He couldn't remember where it was so he had to stop at the store and ask directions. The cashier almost puked when she saw the gaping wound. Luckily since the cut was longitudinal and with the grain of the muscle the damage wasn't nearly as bad. John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
I watched Norm for the first time in ages yesterday (we get HGTV now, so the schedule's better). He was making a high chair with a curved back. Watched him take the curved piece, about 4"Wx14"L and maybe 3/8" thick, curved in an arc. and trim off 1/4" or so down the long side with the tablesaw. Eeeeek, sorry, I'm gonna have to find another way to do that operation!forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yep, I saw that one too, though I didn't mention it. I seem to notice a lot more now days from reading all these table saw incidents. That 4-5" wide curved peice rocking and rolling through that saw blade looked like a rescue 911 call was just around the corner.
I cut curved parts on the tablesaw all the time. I've never had a problem or a concern with it.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Tom,
I very much agree with FG, Norm cutting a curved lamination (top of baby high chair) on the TS just looks scary as hell...it just seems to violate all the safety rules. Wouldn't it be smarter to trim the piece on a bandsaw?
Which safety rule is it violating. As long as you are mindful to keep the peice in contact with the table at the poitn where the blade is forcing it down ther is no problem The same must be done on a bandsaw. Ever cut a large dowl or cylinder on a band saw? If you try to cut straight the down force can rip the work peice right out of you hand pretty violently. I guess when using advanced techniques you have to decide for yourself what you are omfortable doing and whether or not it can be done safely. Many would say Maloofs use of the bandsaw is dangerous. Doesn't mean it can't be done safely.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Tom,
Please don't think I'm criticizing you in any way....you know what your doing and know the risks. My point is an inexperienced person watching Norm do this cut on TV. Let's see....put my right hand on the front of the piece and my left on the back...and as I slide it through I'm also pushing downward on the backside, lifting on the front side, keeping the stock against the fense with both hands...etc. that is a lot for a newbie to pull off...count me in that group...lol. If I did this on a bandsaw I would not have to worry about catching the back of the blade with the stock...I might even consider pushing the stock through upside down..
Yes, I see some processes that are fairly normal in WW that scare the hell out me...shapers particularly.
Edited 2/9/2004 9:54:31 AM ET by BG
I agree with Novy. Once you push the board through the blade continue on past the blade and push the cut-off slightly to the left so it can be safely removed or pushed through with the next board. A splitter is invaluable and can be made easily enough. I took a woodworking course with an instructor from The North Bennett Street School in Boston. He advised us to keep our left hand away from the saw table completely.
Thanks for the vote of confidence Bleu,
As far as the use of the left hand goes............
I teach/preach to people that all hand movements around live tools should be in outward circular motions around the danger zone. IE: The force behind your hand should never be moving directly at the blade !!
Note: Most North American woodworkers/tradesmen are working on saws that have absolutley no guards or riving knives. Not a good thing but a definate reality.On a hill by the harbour
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