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Do miters have to be reinforced with dowels,biscuits or splines?Some I’ve made using only titebond,no reinforcements,hold very well.I’ve taken a hammer to them and they’ve remained intact.However with the seasonal cycling they could weaken over time,though initially very strong immediately after being glued,correct?Thanks.
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Replies
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Roland, Must be a really small hammer! Seriously I have built small boxes (large enough to hold a music movement) with just glue and they have survived fine for many years but I wouldn't want to do a drop test. I think it depends on what you're making, size and weight, wood species and whether there is any possibility of stressing the joint. I'd add reinforcement whenever possible just to be safe.
However, you may have a situation that I'm not visualizing at all.
*Ian thanks for the help.What I make are picture frames(usually oak) anywhere fron 1 1/2 wide to 3" wide(3/4 thick).Oh incidentally the hammer wasn't small at all.It was a 2 lbs. plumbers' hammer.Though one day I dropped one of my frames that had been glued up;it broke.I was shocked.I thought if the wood was wide enough(small frames and drawing frames would obviously not be included) and the miter clamped good and hard during glue-up,that splines,dowels or biscuits weren't really necessary.I think I read this somewhere.Perhaps I read wrong.Thanks.
*Roland, Do I dare mention nails in this forum? I worked in a picture frame shop back in high school. We used cast iron corner vises to hold glued corners and then pre-drilled for finish nails, usually two from one side and one nail from the other. Then countersunk and filled the holes. The shop had a variety of waxy feeling fillers that were quite invisible. We moved from one corner right to the next, letting the nails hold the joint while the glue cured. The shop is still in business 32 years later so it must be working out ok.
*You don't need to reinforce them if you don't care about them staying together. While what you did will hold for some time, eventually they will fail without reinforcement. And there is still no guarantee that they will stay together after a considerable period of time, even if they are reinforced but chances are much improved if you do something to stabilize the joint.Stephen
*Yes you do dare mention nails. In small frames they are very good being flexible and able to 'go with the flow' so to speak. Good choice in frames of smallish dimension, and even not so small dimensions. Glue to go with them too. Slainte, RJ.
*Thanks guys for all the help.Most informative.Henceforth my miters shall unreinforced never be.
*Roland: I always use a spline across the miter on frames and mitered boxes.If the product is to have a clear finish, I use contrasting wood for the visual effect.I add the splines after the joints are set.The secret,if any,is to be sure that the parts are accurately machined and that the joints really fit.I use the miter sled with clamps to machine the miters.¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬
*I have made picture frames of various widths and thicknesses, and I wouldn't think of leaving the miters un-reinforced!!!! Imagine a 30"x30" picture, inside a 3/4" thick picture frame with glass, matting, and the picture itself, hanging on your wall with nothing holding those corners except glue. All I can say is "LOOK OUT BELOW!!!"Miters are beautiful, the only way to go a lot of times, but they aren't the strongest naked joint around. To tell you the truth, I don't know how you could take a hammer to your miter joints without breaking them.Two options for reinforcing miters: (1) cut spline slots at the corners on the table saw, or (2) use 1 1/2" brads. Nail the brads in from the rails rather than from the stiles, sink them with your punch, fill, and you'll very effectively conceal them.You'll also sleep better under that large picture hanging over your bed!
*If you are going to leave them unreinforced, I'd suggest using a polyurethane glue, which in my experience has a better short grain gluing strength. If you must use yellow glue, put some on the joint, let it soak in for a few minutes, then add some more. This is especially true in porous woods such as oak.When I do picture frames, it's as mentioned -- 2 brads from each direction in each corner.The size and condition of gluing surface and predicted stresses will be your guide to reinforce or not reinforce. Also factor in "cost of a failure." Failure of a joint in your personal pencil box will not be as important as, say, a frame for an elaborate stained glass piece above a church altar.
*Attaching crown molding and base trim to a solid cherry wood cabinet.How can I attach crown molding and base molding to a solid cherry wood cabinet without the wood movement pulling the mitered corners apart?Gale
*Gale,Well, the first, and perhaps easiest option would be the splined mitre. On your cornice it can be reinforced with an inside corner block, though this is usually not necessary if properly executed; the spline's grain should run perpendicular to the grain of the pieces being joined. The second option would be the strongest solution; the blind dove tail mitre often times referred to as the "secret mitre" joint. You will have to be a little more specific on the "base moulding" is this an applied accent moulding atop the plinth or the plinth itself?Since this discussion has long been dead, I don't think any one will mind the "high jacking".b ;)Dano
*Hi Dano:Thanks for the comments and alerting me to the "high jack." I finally figured out how to post a message. I will think through your suggestions. However, they sound a little advanced for my experience.Gale
*Gale,If you know how to mitre a joint, making a spiled miter is not hard at all. You simply slot the miter on the table saw where the blade is set at a 45 the width that the spline is thick then rip your spline. Very easy joint and proper too.Dano
*I second Dano's comment about splined miters. There are other options (like using a couple of nails), but the spline is strong and attractive.And Dano, in case you're wondering, yes, I do use my router to cut the slot for the spline!
*Matthew,Thanks for the "second" of the recommendation.Didn't wonder at all about your method for cutting the slot, the interlocking mitre bits are excellent for this joint too. Just don't tell me that you use a 1/4" shanked bit.Dano
*Roland,I suggest picking up a copy of Bruce Hoadley's "Understanding Wood". It's an excellent resource that will inform you all about the characteristics of wood, including gluing.Good luck.Seth
*I just did a miter set last night for a medicine cabinet door, and I used splines just like we talked about here.Dano,I don't own any 1/4" shank bits! Well, actually, I do have one, a spiral upcut bit. I needed it for one job where I had to reach way inside a 1/4" wide mortise. Obviously, a 1/2" bit in that case just wouldn't do the job. Anyway, long story short.
*Awww maaannn!!!You shouldn't have mentioned the 1/4" spiralb upcut bit, Matthew. If the highlight is not a good enough hint, take some time out for contemplation, my friend. Some "credibility" issues are at stake.b ;)Longer story short.Dano
*A little blunder on my part???I guess I should have said I own only one 1/4" bit, and one spiral bit, and the only 1/4" bit and the only spiral bit are one and the same.Let's see, the router is in the table, and it's upside down, so DOWN is really UP, and UP is really DOWN. So the bit must be a....DOWNCUT bit. To tell you the truth, I don't even know for sure, since, like I said, I only used the stupid thing once. And, if you must know, I didn't like the way it performed. So, did I pass your little quiz?
*OK, I just went downstairs and looked at this controversial bit. I was right the first time -- it's a spiral UPCUT bit, and I repeat -- UPCUT.Dano, I think you were assuming I used the bit freehand, in which case it would make sense to use a downcut bit. But I used it in a table.
*Whether mounted in a table or not, an upcut is a bit where the chips are self-evacuated. A downcut is where the chips are pushed down into the cut. A compression bit looks like it was designed by M. C. Escher, it is upcut at the far end and downcut at the collet end.They are all a little scarier for me than a steel bit with carbide tips, and the smaller ones scarier still. I'm more comfortable with upcut than downcut, because of chip clearance. Only use I can think off the top of my head for compression bits is an edge cut, where chip clearance is of course of little concern.Dave
*Matthew,Hehe, well it could be called a blunder, errors in judgment can be subjective though.b ;)This is greatly compensated, however; it's obvious that not only did you do as I asked but, that even upon further contemplation that you physically verified those thoughts.b :) A truely momentous occasion indeed, my friend. In acknowledgement that I appreciate it's significance; I'm going to provide you with a direct link to a discussion here that just began in the appropriate "Tool" folder relative to this conversation of ours. Please click here.I commend you for your efforts. FWIW, I did my own tests on these things a year or so ago. After my very first test, I chucked the test bit in the can and returned the other two. To shed further light on my thoughts on 1/4" shanked router bits in general, if you're interested in them, conduct a folder specific search in the "Tools" folder using "router bits" as your key words. Long before your arrival here I was involved in a excellent discussion on that subject. Dave might recall it as well. It's probably been "archived" for a tad. Worthy to note is that "Router Man" was Pat Warner's handle when he was a regular here.Dano
*Dave,That helps me feel better. Would be pretty embarassing after all this to CONFIRM that I was using the wrong bit. So, now I'm sure it was an upcut bit and I'm sure that an upcut bit is a perfectly sane bit to use. Of course, this feels a little strange defending a stupid bit that I didn't even like and haven't touched for a long time.Dano, your comments are starting to become somewhat cryptic. Are you saying that the only place for a spiral bit is in a horizontal mortiser or a boring machine?Anyway, Dano, looks like you and I do agree (again) on something -- 1/4" bits, and spiral bits in particular, are not the best. Always glad to see when my relatively inexperienced judgement leads me to the same conclusion as someone with your level of knowledge!Unfortunately, I can't seem to find those router bit discussions you were talking about.
*Matthew,i Dano, your comments are starting to become somewhat cryptic. Are you saying that the only place for a spiral bit is in a horizontal mortiser or a boring machineSorry for the slight chain pulling, it is done in good sport and "history" related to some prior differences of opinions we've had.The link was to provide insight to the spiral bit's history. It is a tool that evolved from the end mill bit. Spiral bits have been around for a number of years and they were originally designed for use in CNC routers in production shop. Their introduction into the general wood working market is fairly recent and that is what is of greatest concern to me. The manufacturers of these bits are extremely ambiguous as to there safe use. My opinion is that the best place for a spiral bit is in the garbage can as previously alluded to. There was the comment in that link in reference to the danger of chucking one in a horizontal mortiser.You posted rather quickly after mine, which leads me to believe you did not go back deep enough. In short, one of my postings was a rather descriptive account of a fatality I witnessed on a job site back in my days as a finish carpenter. It involved the shank failure of a 1/4" bit. It was properly seated and it was being used properly. I've made mention of this accident on more recent occasions, though not as detailed as my original posting. I will also not go into those details here either. Hope you can understand why I won't.Dano
*DanoWell, it's interesting to learn a little about spiral bit history! That helps explain, I think, why I might have found them to be less than adequate to the task. At first, they sound good, with all the supposed chip-clearing qualities, etc.However, like you, I quickly abandoned usage of 1/4" bits. My instincts told me not to trust them for any heavy work. I didn't like the one and only spiral bit I tried, and after hearing your general opinion of these bits, I don't plan to buy any more of them.For way-down-deep mortises, use the router as far as it can take it, then bring out the chisels.
*Matthew,Do you by chance have a drill press? Using a brad point or Fortsner bit works very well too, 'course if you do, a mortising attachment works even better.b ;-)Dano
*Dano,Do you read minds? Just this morning, I was looking at a new drill press. The drill press I have now really SUCKS. Yes, that would solve the problem. I'm looking at the Delta 17-965, and the JET JDP-17MF (both 16 1/2"), and the Bridgewood BW-1758F (17"). Favoring the Delta right now.
*Matthew,No, as I recently mentioned in another discussion here, I am not clairvoient. What I did not mention there is, that I also am not as "dumb" as I look.b ;-)FWIW, I have a Delta 12" DP and their mortising attachment which does serve my needs very well. I do believe that their mortising attachment fits all but their smaller models, not too sure but definetly worth checking out. If you do go with a their DP and mortising attachment, the standard mortising chisel bits that come with it are junk. I replaced my set with a set ordered from Garrett Wade. FWIW.Dano
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