Hi,
Have a ? regarding installing baseboards. I am using my new Makita 12″ compound miter saw for this task.
I set the miter saw to 45 degree angle. ( saw blade pointing toward the right) fitted the baseboard upright tight against the fence.
I exposed the profile of the molding in the end grain. Then back cut (coped) the molding following along the front edge of its profile.
When I went to fit the coped piece into place I noticed that the bottom had “diverged”. So I am wondering if the saw blade is not quite perpendicular to the material as it cuts… would explain the top of the miter being ok, but the bottom diverging. Not out by too much but It could be better.
I’ve installed baseboard before and haven’t had this problem. Is it better to cut basebaord vertically or horizontally. I prefer cutting it upright while clamped to the fence. Even if the corner wasn’t exactly square.. coping would get around that problem.
does anyone have any suggetions.. a possible solution to this problem?
Wanda
Replies
Wanda,
Any chance that the molding the coped piece is fitting against isn't vertical, tucked in a bit at the bottom, this would cause the same gap.
To check if the saw is set up properly, make another 45 degree cut with the molding vertical and then just check that the line where the bevel meets the face is square to the bottom edge of the molding. If the saw needs adjustment there is a stop screw somewhere in the back that can be adjusted, the saw's instruction manual should cover the procedure, but it is usually very simple.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Your first cut should be no cut- the stock sits against the wall, butt joint.
The second piece meets the first, but scribe it to fit(the out of plumb wall angle), then back cut it at 45. Then cope it to fit. Be sure not to cut the ogee, or other, profile- hand cope it.
Check your saw to be sure, but they're usually pretty good right out of the box. I would bet that the wall(s) are out of plumb - and maybe not square either.
Cutting a miter then coping to the profile only works if the walls are plumb. If they aren't, you either have to shim the base to get plumb or scribe and cope with the base out of plumb.
This happens a LOT! Usually the cause is that the drywall does not reach to the floor, denying support of your baseboard. Rip some 1/2 plywood to tack to the bottom framing plate, bringing the base in plane with the rest of the wall. Baseboard is not Steinway-making--don't worry yourself overly; caulking is widely available. Save the fussiness for stain-grade work.
Rocotoed
One other culprit - the tapered edge of the drywall. When installed horizontally (as is most common) the taper runs along the floor line making it near impossible to keep baseboard plumb without using shims, etc.
Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Edited 8/3/2006 4:20 pm by Rennie
Hi,
After closer inspection I discovered that the miter saw is not to blame. The drywall is causing the joint to come open at the bottom. The wall is not plumb.( no real surprise there) and the drywall tapers in at the bottom. I'm not too sure how to scribe so I'm going to put a shim behind the baseboard to make it plumb with the wall. that way the 2nd piece of baseboard will fit snug.
I suppose I could use a digital protractor to check the angle of the out of square corner.(unfortunately I don't own one of those gadgets) That way I could just set my miter saw to that out of square angle without having to scribe or shim? Isn't that what professional carpenters do when installing crown moulding.
Wanda
You don't need a digital protractor for that, a bevel gauge is very affordable and faster for your purpose than a protractor.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Take a screw or roofing nail and and drive it into the bottom plate of the framing to allow the first piece of trim to sit square to the floor without getting pused back into the void left by the taper of the drywall or gap at the bottom of the drywall. You can use a square to position the nail or screw.
Other than that I use a 4 in 1 rasp to fine tune the profile.
Smaller files if the profile is detailed. If the trim is stained, use a touch up marker to darken the cut to allow it to blend in.
Good point, Rennie. And this is why I have gotten out of that trade to focus on cabinetry, where one can control the whole process. I just hated it when the framers left me with a front door to install, but the two sides of the opening were not in plane. Rocotoed
the easiest solution, especially if your base is less than 3" wide, is to make the cope angle 43* plus or minus. this will tighten the bottom. try it and let us know how it went.
regards,
Sean
Hi,
I have almost completed the installation of the baseboard. Thanks so much for the tips. I ended up putting a wooden shim behind the baseboard to bring it plumb to the wall. Not a bad fit If I do say so myself. :) Next time I'll try and fiddle around with the settings on the saw. miter at 43/44 degrees and see what happens. Depending of course on whether or not the gap is near the bottom or the top of the moulding. I'm installing 4" baseboard.
One more piece to install and then the job is finished. Hammering in all those finishing nails and then having to sink them using a countersink was a real workout. Thank god I didn't have any problems locating the studs. Would be great to own one of those Porter Cable nailing guns.
Wanda
Hi,
here are 2 pics of the installed 4 inch baseboard. Forgot to attach these pics to the last post.
Wanda
Looks a bit like the proverbial polar bear in a snow storm. Any chance we could see something a bit clearer?Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Hi Rennie,
Dear Lord! The glare!!!!!!!!!!! I think you need sunglasses to view those pics. You could come down with a case of snow blindness, What's with those digital cameras. I much prefer to take pics using my old dinosaur.. Minolta 35mm camera. I sure wouldn't make it as a photographer hey!
I obviously got too close to my "subject" Next time I'll make sure to snap the picture from a few feet away. Most likely I had the digital cam on the wrong setting. Oh well I'll have to give it another shot.
Wanda
I alwats used a shim at the bottom of the drywall, then would determin a fraction of length to add to the coped piece to insure a snug fit. Depending on how the baseboard was finished would deligate how precise this fraction needed to be
I am a professional finish carp and most often it's better to keep the base plumb, and straight even if the walls aren't. The eye will notice base thats not on the same plane as the wall.
In your case I'd do as others have suggested and simply shim the base so your corners allow an intersection that's plumb on both sides.
Prior to every trim job I pick up a big box of tongue depressors from the craft section at walmart. They are 1/16" thick, easy to cut and easy to use. Hold the base against the wall, check how out of plumb it is with a torpeto level and simply add the number of shims needed and shoot it to the wall.
I'll typically rough cut all staingrade base 1/16" longer than needed, but only after cutting out rough areas of the drywall or plaster and carefully checking all corners with two 10" sections of mitered base. The mitered pieces show which sides of the walls are in or out and the lengths of the coped pieces can be adjusted apropriately for the 1/16" over length. After a careful trial fitting, the final length of the coped piece can be adjusted more closely as needed.
After a day or so of base at a particular house I'll start to reduce the amount of extra wood left for the trial fit and more will fit perfectly the first time. It's a cost/benefit issue as to how much extra length to allow for trial fitting. Some houses are very uniform as to how tight the sheetrock is installed at the corners, how smooth the rock is, and how plumb the corners and body of the walls are.
Paintgrade trim is usually caulked with white painters caulk and the wall is touched up as needed. Cheaper caulking has fewer solids and shrinks more, while the brands sold at professional paint stores produce better results if you have large gaps. I don't mind Dap or other such brands that shink more since gaps are usually small and shrinkage isn't a problem.
White caulking applied sparingly with a #2 or #3 tip on a pastry bag (as used for cake icing) and wiped tightly will be hardly visable. If you are removing caulk from the seam while wiping, you're using too much caulk. Some use a damp cloth to wipe and some use the side of a finger. If there is a reason for filling many linear feet of gaps larger than 1/16" it's probably better to use a caulking gun and simply cut the tube for a small hole.
For staingrade work I'll use a paintable silicone/latex caulk that goes on white and dries clear. It's most important to keep excess caulking off the finished trim so a #1 tip works best, although a #2 is less prone to clogging and is more useful for filling larger gaps up to 1/16" or so.
It's almost always better to barely fill a gap with caulk and have to reapply after the joint is dry than to add too much the first time.
As for nail holes, they are a fact of life, but hide them whenever possible. Construction adhesive can often reduce the amount of nails needed for the trim to survive long term.
Keeping in mind that I'd like the trim to survive for 100 years, some areas need a lot of suport, as around well used corners, while others need minimal attachment as with the inside of a closet or seldom used room.
Staingrade wood always has areas that are hard to putty and those that are easy to hide. Typically small knots and edges that are to be hidden by other trim are the first to take a nail. Then I'll look for uniform portions of the wood grain that are easy to blend in with putty.
The worst areas are highly grained protions that vary in color. Instead of lining up nail holes it's better to spread them out as much as possible. Also place nails in recessed areas of the trim profile and avoid the edges that reflect the most light.
Finally, when trim naturally wants to tightly hug the wall due to a bulge or nature of the wood in the trim, that's a perfect situation to use construction adhesive and avoid having to use nails in that area altogether.
Installing trim can be like finishing a fine piece of furniture: it's quick and easy for anyone to do a so-so job, and quite a bit more involved for perfection.
Best wishes
Hi Trout,
You should be writing your own book on how to install trim carpentry. I decided to repair some of the trim in the kitchen today. (the dogs decided the other day they'd have a munch on some of the moulding) The painters are coming in on Sat. So I thought I better replace it. No sense in just trying to patch it up.
Wow! That outside corner was difficult. The outside corner was way out of square. The metal strip (corner bead)was curved inwards towards the bottom making my job that much more difficult. Anyways I did manage to get the 2 outside 45 degree angles to join up... althought they were not perfectly matched... little bit of the profile was exposed. I got around that by filing the edge until the 2 edges were even. Worked like a charm. A little bit of chaulk and you'd never know the corner was that out of square.
Tomorrow I have to fit the inside corner.. I'm now wishing I had of cut the end of that baseboard at a 45 instead of butting it into the wall. Now I have to cut the rt side of the inside corner at a 45 and cope it to fit the other side of the corner(left hand piece of basebaord.... But being right handed makes this a bit tricky. I should have checked to see if that inside corner was plumb before butting that piece of baseboard and nailing it into the stud. I will have to cut a test piece and see how it fits.
Do you have any tips for coping the left hand side of an inside corner? (profile on my left)Should I start at the narrow end (tip)of the profile or the straight end(bottom)?
I usually clamp the baseboard on the edge of my bench and start cutting with the tip of the exposed profile pointing towards me. (cutting away from myself) Not sure if that's the best method for a right handed person.
wanda
Iam right handed but often cope left ends because I preassemble sections of base, crown, chairrail,etc. I usually leave on some of the waste and finish to the line with a combination of files making sure to back cut. I also only use a coping saw for small moldings and for moldings with small profiles like colonial base. I cope with a jigsaw with a Collins Coping Foot. With a little practice to get past the learning curve it is faster, easier, and my arm doesn't feel like jello after a day of running trim.
Also, I think that gent00 is right on with the drywall screw shim suggestion. It is basically an adjustable shim. I drive them in the corners and whereever else needed and use a square to adjust them in and out with a screw driver. They are stronger than a nail and take much less time than trying to find the right thickness with wood shims. Add a blob of construction adhesive(liquid shim) next to them before installing base and the whole set up becomes very strong and durable.
Hi Justinh,
A collin's coping foot.. Is that an accessory or did it come with your jig saw? Never thought of using a jigsaw for cutting profiles. When scribing a piece of baseboard to fit level with the floor a jigsaw is often used. but I've never heard of a "collin's coping foot. What is it exactly? would be great if you could post a picture of it.
Wanda
PS.. the idea of using a drywall screw to square the base is an excellent suggestion. I ran into a different sort of problem today while nailing the baseboard in place. Using my nail set to set the nails I could only get it in so far and that was it. Just flush to the surface of the baseboard. Obviously I must have hit a nail. Since studs are toenailed into the sole plates.. that has to be the reason I couldn't drive that nail in properly. How do you avoid those large nails when nailing base close to the corner of the wall. I need x-ray vision!
Posting pictures is beyond my computer savy but Collin's Tool Company has a website that includes pictures of the attachment for the jig saw and a review of it by Jim Toplin. There are other articles on it's use on Gary Katz's website and in his book on finish carpentry. He also demonstrates its use in his videos on installing base, casing, and crown. The crown video actually includes a guest spot by the tool's inventor, David Collins who makes the whole thing look frighteningly easy. I keep dedicated jigsaw set up with the attachment for coping and cutting really wavy scribe lines. Like I said there is a learning curve. You have to hold the saw upside down by the motor rather than the handle.
As far as hitting nails when hand nailing base try moving over a few inches and angle your nail a little more aiming for the base plate instead of the stud. I almost exclusively use a nailgun and occasionally hit a nail. Moving over or angling the next nail(after clearing the jamb) usually works unless you're hitting a framing connector. Gun nails usually seem to find their way around nails. Might be a worthwhile purchase if you have alot of base yet to install.
Hi Justinh,
Yes, it sure would be nice to have one of those nailing guns. But I'm just about finished putting up the trim now. I only have casing to put around the door in the workshop and I might install some baseboard to protect the drywall.
Do you use a compressor with your nailing gun or is it battery powered. What distinguishes a reasonably good nailing gun from a poor quality gun?
Wanda
I have several pnuematic and a cordless. I prefer pnuematics. Cordless guns are expensive to buy and run. They don't funtion as part of a system and are really finicky about cleaning. I use mine for punchlist work or like the last time running crown molding on a catheral ceiling 18 feet up on scaffolding in a condo on a third floor. A hose would have gotten in the way.
Gun quality varies by manufacturer and price. Tools of the Trade magazine online has reviews of several. For basic trim work I would recommend a 16g. nailer and an 18g. brad nailer. I use a 16g. Hitachi ($150) and 3 different brad nailers ( I hate slowing down to change nail sizes). Hitachi makes an excellent brad nailer for about $90 at Lowes.
The 16g. gets used for base, outside edge of casing, crown, etc. The brad nailer stitches outside corners of base, inside edges of casing, doorstop, cabinet crown, base shoe if it can handle 2" nails, etc.
I also use other guns for different applications. I hang doors with a 15g. angled nailer. This gun is also used for large base, crown, and anywhere I feel the need for a nail with more holding power. The nails are expensive and that cost adds up quick which is why I favor the 16g. I use a 23g. micro pinner for small delicate moldings that a brad nailer would split and for preassembling sections of base and crown. They are great for stitching the outside corners of MDF molding without splitting the material. The nails are headless so they should be used only to hold things in position while glue sets up. The nail holes are nearly invisible. On paint grade trim they usually get filled with paint and on staingrade a dab of stainable wood glue and a couple swipes with some sand paper are all that is needed.
Some companies offer combo packs with a nailer or 2 plus a compressor and hose. They might be useful for starting out.
Buy the best quality gun(s) you feel necessary for what you will be doing with them. They also have many uses in a shop. Remember that they are just tools. The real value is carpenter using them.
P.S. If you buy do not run generic nails. They tend to jam more.
Hi again,
I was just looking up pneumatic nailing guns/brad nailing guns online. Checked out House of Tools... They have a porter cable combo kit selling for $369.00 Canadian. comes with a compressor and 2 nailing guns.. 16 g and 18 g.
They also sell Hitachi. Think the 16 g was sellling for $249.00 Canadian. Now I'll check out Home Depot to see what brands they sell.
Could you give me the model number of the 16 g and 18 g pneumatic nailing guns you use. Have you ever used a porter cable nailing gun/brad nailing gun before? I know they make some of the best routers around. I own 2 PC routers and have never had a problem with them. Have no idea if they make decent nailing guns. I'll have to try and search that online tool review site you mentioned. I could also check out the 2006 Tool Review mag.
1 more ? concerning installing baseboard and case moulding.. Are 2" finishing nails the best size to use for installing base? Because that's what I used in the kitchen. The only other size nails I had were only 1 1/4" long. And that was too short. Would the 1 1/4 " finishing nails be ok for the casing or should I use 1" nails. I'll be using my trust worthy hammer and nail set to do the job since I don't own one of those wonderful power nailers. It's best to use 2 different size nails to install casing? hmmm I've always used the same size nail for inside and outside of the casing.
Wanda
Wanda, you're getting good advice here, but in case you haven't noticed, there's a lot of information on trim and nail guns -and much more - over at Breaktime (see Other Taunton forums, at the top of the page). And if you want to see some really impressive coping, click on Advanced Search there and do a search for message mumber 75981.51. Dan
Hi DanG,
Thanks for letting me know about the other forum (breaktime). Those videos were amazing. That was quite impressive. Who would have ever thought to use a grinder to cope trim. He sure makes it look easy.
Wanda
You're welcome, Wanda. Besides Breaktime and Knots, there are also the cooking and the gardening and the sewing and the home design forums. You can go through the whole day without leaving the site - if you don't have anything else to do. Good luck,
Dan
Wanda,
I purchased an EasyCoper from Rockler some time ago and it works like a charm. I'm not sure what a Collins foot is, but I'm sure they are similar. The EasyCoper is a plastic jig held against crown molding that allows you to zip through your crown using your jig saw. My jig came with an instructional video, and it has online help as well. The man who created the jig can cope a piece of crown in about 10 seconds, clean and ready to install. I can't quite cope that fast, but it is still more efficient than using a coping saw, then touching up the profile with a rasp. If you're not installing molding often, it may not be worth your while; there's a learning curve and a price tag, I think I purchased mine 2 years ago for around $40.
Josh
Now Wanda's problem is a simple one... the cut has diverged "on the bottom"
presumably leaving a gap on the bottom.
No big deal, all a person has to do is add a tad of shim behind the bottom of the matching piece in order to close the gap.
And if that's not possible, recut the 45 adding just a tad of lift at the end of the deck with a scrap of wood at the end of the table.
Of course, this assumes a whole lot of other idiocy ain't present- like trying to drape 12' of moulding on a 2' saw deck and thinkin it will cut it square or accurately....Sorry Wanda- just had to add that. Any Wanda that can comprehend "coping" deserves that apology in advance.......more power to ya lassie!!!
I ain't saying that i never had to recut a cope to make it fit, but adding a tad of shim can make yer probem go away real easy, but do check yer saw for square, moreso if its a compound mitre saw....A tad of sawdust on the detent/stop can make a whack of difference....
Eric in Cowtown.
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