For Christmas I recieved my first Japanese Chisel. Like many of you, my family never knows what to get me. I am, therefore, asked to tell them. I choose an 1/8″ White Steel Furniture Chisel by Nishiki. My mother ordered it from JapaneseWoodworker.com. I was elated. When I used it (after bringing the edge to an unsupassed sharpness) to clean out some mortises, the shaft bent under the pressure of my hammer–not terribly but it bent nontheless.
I emailed the company asking if the product was defective but have recieved no response after two days now. This being my first chisel of this kind, I must admit I am not familiar enough to say definitivly that this is not user error. Can anyone help? I have only used western chisels before.
Thanks
Replies
For the life of me, I cannot understand why hobbiest or even professional woodworkers would fool around with Japanese chisels. I have poured over the Japan Woodworker's catalogue for many years and am intrigued by most Japanese tools, but the maintainence level and learning curve with their use, generally drives me away from them. I have a few Japanese saws that work well(hardened teeth), some measuring tools and a nifty hammer, but the bulk of them are overpriced and it is unclear to me that they represent "value" for most Western style woodworkers. I cannot imagine pulling a plane. I am sorry about your chisel, but I have no idea whether a laminated steel tool can be "bent" back into shape. I assume that the chisel was a mortising chisel(?).
The reason for using Japanese chisels for furniture making is simple. A high quality chisel, white or blue steel, made by a master like Nishiki is a lot more durable, and gets sharper by an incredible margin. Without getting too technical, the process of folding steel, along with how it is forged (charcoal, carbon, etc...) creates a steel that has a cutting edge which will polish to an extreme degree of sharpness, and hold its edge a lot longer. I've used the finest american and european chisels available, and have replaced them with my set of Nishiki dovetail chisels on my bench.
Jeff
I felt obligated to reply to your comments as I believe your writing 'brush' to be much too broad. "I cannot understand why hobbiest or even professional woodworkers would fool around with Japanese chisels."We do so because in many cases these handcrafted instruments outperform their western counterparts (all things being equal). The fact that you use a Japanese style saw underscores my point: saws that cut on the pull cut cleaner than our Western style saws that cut on the push. So why should you doubt that laminated chisels would not perform better than their Western counterparts?Overpriced? High maintenance? Steep learning curve? These are all relative things based on individual personal experience. Your perception of a Japanese chisel being overpriced may represent the cost of owning a quality handcrafted tool to another craftsman. It is not my experience that craftsmen purchase expensive tools just to be able to say that they do. It is my experience however, that we make our tool purchases based on a desire and/or need for an item and the value we believe we will receive in exchange for our money.Your perception of high maintenance could be viewed by others as simply the preparatory 'tuning' of an instrument (violin, chisel, etc) prior to the 'concert'. It is a necessary exercise which prepares our tools for the task at hand. It goes without saying that we should always strive to keep our tools in topnotch condition. Japanese tools are no different in this respect. Tool sharpening should be second nature to a woodworker.In regards your comment about the learning curve of Japanese tools and chisels, they should be viewed as any other tool or appliance: the more expertise one has with a tool, the more proficient we become in their use. And, in the end, our work will reflect this proficiency.Regards,
Phillip
For most woodworkers, Japanese tools(particularly chisels) are a waste of time and money. The opening comment in this thread amply demonstrated their difficulty. A 1/8 inch "Nishiki Special Furniture Chisel" retails in the Japan Woodworker catalog for $59.85. Last week at Costco, I saw a set of Marples chisels for less than $19.00, including a mallet. A set of "Fat Max Stanley" chisels cost less than $25.00 and a set of 6 Hirsch chisels cost $89.00. If a chisel rolls off the bench and is damaged, the smaller investment and little time lost in the repair of the typical Western chisel are an annoyance. If the same occurs, however, to one's prized Japanese chisel, the fractured cutting edge can take some time to repair(if possible) and the investment monetarily makes repair of the afflicted tool an agonizing and an anxiety provoking experience. Let's remember, most bench chisels will be hit with hammers(mallets) and need to stand up to considerable abuse. The durability of these chisels and their utilitarian use remains doubtful. As an aside, do most Western woodworker's also work on a mat rather than a bench, use a planing beam, use exclusively softwoods and make Shoji? I think not. As for my few Japanese "style" tools, they have their place and are uncommonly needed. Tage Frid has also noted the relative uselessness of Japanese saws. I can't remember the last time Roy or Norm displayed their Japanese woodworking prowess.
Japanese chisels are imbued with tradition, not practicality. Please reread pages 58-60 in Toshio Odate's book "Japanese Woodworking Tools-Their TRADITION, SPIRIT and Use".
In the ultimate analysis, you are correct and it is one's personal decision as to the tools they use. I am simply expressing my few observations and biases over the years. My interest in any tool is the job that tool can competantly and reliably do for me, and not having a tool that in itself is a job.
Have a Happy New Year!
RobandJo1
If I'm understanding you correctly, then what you are saying here to Phillip and I is that there is never a good reason to buy a better tool. Should we tell Lie Nielsen to go out of business because they are just for show. Nonsense!!!! Bedrock planes never should have been made because the old Stanley crappers were awesome!!! I don't think so. Comparing a Marples chisel to a Nishiki chisel is like comparing a little leaguer to Babe Ruth. If you're close to my shop in Crystal Lake, Illinois, sometime, stop by. I'll show you the difference. I've got a set of marples, too, that I use for construction crap wood. Sharpening a japanese chisel is NOT difficult, it's just a little different. Once you're past the learning curve, it's a piece of cake. I can sharpen one as fast as a Western chisel. I'll show you, stop by. The other nice thing is that I have to sharpen my Nishiki's about 1/4 as much, because they hold an edge for much, much longer.
Happy New Year!!
Jeff
<<If I'm understanding you correctly, then what you are saying here to Phillip and I is that there is never a good reason to buy a better tool.>>
Let me state the notion of "value". A product is of value if it can do the job for which is was intended at a reasonable price. This does not mean that a superior product does not exist or that a more costly product cannot be obtained. It merely acknowledges that there is a product that can do the task for which it was designed efficiently and economically.
I am not convinced from my study of this subject that Japanese tools in general and chisels in particular represent "value" for most woodworkers. Similarly, a Rolls-Royce or a Rolex does not represent in my opinion "value". There are other reasons, however, for their ownership. They are both finely crafted machines, but a $10.00 quartz Timex will tell more accurate time and almost any Honda will run at least as well(probably better). Japanese chisels are sexy and alluring, but for most neophyte and weekend woodworkers, adequate work can be produced without them. It is not a question of a "better tool". I believe that some Lie-Nielsen tools represent value. Their low-angled smoother or jack plane to my thinking are a good "value" since trying to obtain their collectible originals is fiscally prohibitive. However, their regular line up of numbered planes, I believe are too extravagantly priced for most woodworkers. Mr. Korn in his fine book on hand tools has noted this as well.
"The smaller companies' products tend to be more expensive, reflecting the attention they give to accurate machining of parts and top-quality materials. Their planes are a joy to use. This is not to say you need to buy the most expensive tool every time. A standard $70 jack plane, properly tuned up, does good work. A $280 jack plane offers only marginal, not fourfold, improvement."(p.137)
"In any case you do not need the world's best chisels to make beautiful furniture; a good set will do".(p.63)
-from The Woodworker's Guide to Hand Tools by Peter Korn
My concern here is that newbies will fall prey to the notion that ownership of such tools confers craftmanship. It simply does not. I have not touched upon other retailers of Japanese tools such as Hida Tools or some that are carried by Tools for Woodworking whose prices for some sets of Japanese chisels are more than the cost of a good contractors saw.
Edited 1/2/2005 8:43 pm ET by ROBANDJO1
I feel absolutely compelled to reply. Are you an English professor? The only time in my life that I can remember ever being quoted to out of a dictionary or book in an informal open discussion was by my college english professor. Do you have any practical experience with Nishiki chisels that compells you to arbitrarily dismiss them and categorize them as useless, or, excuse me, VALUE-less. The VALUE in them is in their construction process. The chisels are made from a material, and handmade in such a way, which holds a sharper and stronger edge. That VALUE equates to less time at the sharpening bench. In my PERSONAL experience, that equates to more time working. And, the VALUE in that is a project which gets to the customer faster. Sharper tools also create VALUE in that the user is less likely to get injured by a sharp tool then by forcing a dull one. One is less likely to make a mistake with handcut dovetails or mortices using sharper tools, as well.
As far as your argument regarding Lie Nielsen handplanes, IMO you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who uses them consistently who would take a refund and go back to using a Stanley/Bailey or a Bedrock, a Millers Falls, or any other old plane you'd like to bring up that didn't cost a weeks wage back when it was built. I've got a pretty complete set of Bedrocks, all dead flat from hours of lapping on the granite plate, with frogs filed to mate with their "bedrock" sole, and cutters polished to a mirror finish, and they still don't work as well as their LN equivalent. And, for less than a days pay, the LN's are a heck of a value.
Please let me know in advance if I need to bring books and dictionaries to our next discussion. I wish to be prepared.
Jeff
You have missed my point. I have never stated that Japanese chisels and Lie-Nielsen planes are not exquisite instuments. My concern is that novices and weekend woodworkers will be deluded into thinking that the tools "make the craftsman", while my argument has been the converse. I am also concerned that some newcomers to our beloved craft will view tool buying as a substitute for learning and after spending hard earned money for the most exquisite hand tool, will be disappointed rather than exhilarated, because the accurate use of that tool depended upon years of patient learning(witness post 1). Mr. Odate stated as much when as an apprentice, he bought a plane that his master found and promptly removed from him. His master knew that the plane was beyond his knowledge at that time to fully appreciate.
Please do not view my opinions as a personal affront, as none was intended. I tend to reinforce my opinions with what I have read over the years and will usually provide a source so that anyone who reads my comments will understand that they are based not solely upon my own experience.
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could ever imagine."
Star Wars Obiwon Kinobe Pg. 273
I think I basically agree with your point as it's now being expressed. By all means, tools are great, but skills are far better. Give me the best Japanese saw, a L-N block plane and top-of-the-line Japanese chisels already properly honed; then give Chris Becksvoort and old Stanley block plane, a $10 Stanley dovetail saw, and a bunch of Craftsman chisels, and let's see who makes better dovetail joints.And, I want to support your use of Frid's quote, too. I implicitly asked for that quote in my previous post, and was actu8ally interested in what he had said.But, I wonder: if you start a beginning guitar student on an inferior instrument he/she will almost certainly develop bad habits that are nearly impossible to correct later; these are to compensate for the failings of the instrument. Could the same be true for WW tools? For example, I think that lousy hand tools will push one in the direction of power tools pretty quick. Nothing sucks more than a dull poorly tuned hand plane. What a pain! Digging in, tearout, ugh. So, for the beginner, one advantage of using good tools, I submit, would be to minimize discourgement. What say you?CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
CharlieD,
That is the point...to minimize discouragement. The orginal poster is discouraged, his new chisel is bent. We don't know if the bend is right or left or swayback. We don't know if it was a morticing chisel. Would any of you professionals use a 1/8" japanese bench chisel and a mallet to clean up a mortice? Is the design and composition of an 1/8" japanese such that it really should only be used for specific purposes or in specific ways?
There are some very good points being made in this thread...but many are hidden or not obvious to the novice...mainly because many responders are reacting to what they percieve to be generalizations. It is still a great discussion, however. I, like many novices, was discouraged when my 1" Sorby could not hold an edge. So for chopping its a lousy tool...but I love it for paring....absolutes to woodworkers are fighting words...lol
Robland makes very good points about 'value' because lack of it leads to discouragement too. However, missing in that definition is the fact that 'value' is relative to each of us. Personally, while I don't own any, I believe LN planes are a terriffic value...especially when I consider all I have spent on sandpaper to rehab my old Stanley's. On the same hand, however, I would not have a stable of LN's because I don't percieve sufficient value in a scrub or #2, etc. But, If I wanted to a buy Hotley would a few of you here try to change my mind because I might be discouraged by its value to me.
Anyhow, my point is it's a good thread..and perhaps the orginal poster would be happier if the conversation had occured before he made his Santa list....
Last month I purchased my first Lie-Nielsen plane. It was their cheapest low-angled block plane made now of iron instead of bronze and it set me back $75.00. It is a tool of unmatched beauty and is well tuned out of the box. I honed the back on an 8000 grit waterstone(the back of the blade was perfectly flat) and the sole needed about 1 minute of lapping on 400 grit sand paper. It cuts beautifully. However, I would not have appreciated this tool if I had not struggled initially with tuning my old low angled Stanley block plane. Now after that experience and many others restoring old tools, I feel confident at flattening the soles of planes, flattening backs of chisels, removing rust, sharpening saws, etc. I doubt that my learnimg curve would have progressed at all without that experience. At this time in my woodworking "career", however, I do not enjoy the amount of time and mess that accompanies tuning old tools. My time spent in that endeavor is pure drugery and any new planes will be from Lie-Nielsen. My birthday is coming in February and my parents generally get me for me whatever I ask. A low-angled jack plane will be mine come February.
You will fall in love with that low-angle jack. If you have $40 extra, I'd recommend the toothed blade as an accessory. It will make very deep cuts with no tearout; really shortens the flattening process.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Thank you!!!
Rob... I read this with interest, especially after your comment about the tools not making the craftsman... For what it's worth, I've a slightly different angle for you.
I got into woodworking 4 years ago thanks to a router and a "honey-do". The only hand plane I could afford back then was a Record block plane. For the life of me I couldn't get the damn thing to work, and couldn't figure if it was me or the plane; the work suffered accordingly. A while later, I bit the bullet, replacing the Record with a new Stanley block plane with the same net result, was it me or the plane. A while after that, I add more new Stanleys to the collection (they have a good rep... right??) By this time I've discovered Knots, benefited from "how to tune" info, and set at these door stops with avengence, puttered n polished, fiddled n fettled till I was sure they were as good as I could make em. Guess what... same prob... is it me or the tool cos the damn things still couldn't cut the mustard. By this time I'm pretty angry; I'm quite a bit out of pocket buying tools in good faith thinking that they're fit for purpose... in addition, my education's been gradually progressing; by now I'm sure the tools have a lot to do with it... but there's still that element of doubt.
So I bit the bullet again... bought L-N's... doubt free zone; I KNOW it's not the tool, my technique improved in leaps and bounds, confidence following shortly there-after.
So what's my point with all this??
Simply... "straight outa the box" tools may not make the craftsman , but they sure as hell help to flatten the learning curve when you can illuminate "is it the tool" from the equation. Since going this route, whenever I find someone in the same position I was in, I try to point out the dangers of going the cheap and cheerful route, as I know from bitter experience that a lemon is a lemon no matter how well tuned. I try to steer them towards tools that I know are fit for purpose straight outa the box. recommending Clifton, Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen. Expensive they may be, but you'll only need to buy them once; there's no "suck it n see" involved... just "suck if ya want"...
re jap tools... I read the same Tage Frid passage that was quoted a few posts back, might have believed it too if I hadn't already read David Charlesworth extolling their virtues. If I remember right, Frid reckons that the only saw you'll need is a bow saw? When I read that, I figured it was a pretty dangerous statement to make, his statement being merely his opinion. Bow saws may well have suited his style just fine, but that doesn't mean they'll suit everyone. People tend to recommend tools they feel comfortable and capable with. Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I apologize for not responding earlier. Monday's are always hell after a vacation.
There is an elderly cabinetmaker whose acquaintance I was fortunate to make. He resides in rural Alabama. He is grade school educated. As a young man, he worked in another person's cabinet shop. Somewhat later, he worked at a service station pumping gas. After a time, he saved enough money to start his own one person cabinet shop which continues to this day. His tools include a 10 inch bandsaw, a contractor's saw, a huge radial arm saw, an old 1/2 sheet electric sander and a 3/8 inch electric drill. Most of his tools were made in the 1960's by Craftsman. There are no handplanes. I never saw a chisel. He owns assorted screwdrivers and one handsaw. The tablesaw's "fence" is attached to the cast iron top with C clamps. He uses his radial arm saw for ripping as he noticed that the tablesaw would commonly produce projectiles. His carcasses are assembled with dowel joints almost exclusively. He uses grade #3 pine and lauan or rarely birch plywood. He finishes his pieces with Minwax oil finish and never uses any finish that requires a brush. He will occassionally stain his work. His workshop is located in a small building alongside his house. In a more affluent neighborhood this "building" would probably be condemned. The roof is tar paper, the benches and floors are made of a single thickness of particleboard. When the roof leaks, large holes appear in both the floor and the benches. Yet, he has furnished me with beautifully constructed cabinets, a bunk bed, display cases, bookcases, desks, platform bed, etc. His tools are simple and unelegant. He is a sincere, honest craftsman who is savvy about his tools and the materials with which he works.
I am not saying that in order to be a better woodworker one needs to start with axes and knives before "progressing" to more sophisticated tools. From my standpoint, however, the most important "tool" will always be located between one's ears...all the rest is icing.
Edited 1/4/2005 8:23 pm ET by ROBANDJO1
Edited 1/4/2005 9:13 pm ET by ROBANDJO1
From my standpoint, however, the most important "tool" will always be located between one's ears...
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more..Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
You may have staightened the intentional design element out fo your chisel. Japanrse chisels have in intentional camber and appear to be bent, but in actuallity are not straight like western chisels.
<<But, I wonder: if you start a beginning guitar student on an inferior instrument he/she will almost certainly develop bad habits that are nearly impossible to correct later; these are to compensate for the failings of the instrument. Could the same be true for WW tools?>>
Just as the aspiring violinist would not appreciate the value of a violin with Stradivarian capability, could not the same also be said for the novice woodworker not yet being able to fathom the worth of certain "fine" hand tools? Or should a teenage driver be required to take their driver's education course in a Ferrari? Clearly, I am not relegating tools of junk status to beginners. I myself cut my first dovetails with Marples(FWW called them the "Ford Taurus" of chisels). I am just trying to seek some balance in how a tool is applied for any given job by both advanced and neophyte woodworkers. BG hit it precisely when he commented upon the subjective nature in the concept of "value".
When Wood reviews tools they will usually give their opinion as to the "best tool", but they will also note the tool that has the "best value". Only rarely are those two selections the same tool.
This discussion has gone in several directions since I posted. As a series of clarifications: the chisel only bent slightly and I was able to straighten it by hand; there was only a minimal amount of pressure from my mallet; the chisel bent slightly back.
Now, as for the question of value, this chisel was a Christmas gift. I think it's cost was in the 60 to 70 dollar range. I personally would never have purchased it for myself. I use blue handled Marples. These chisels will take a beating and when I sharpen them using 1000 and 6000 grit stones, will sharpen nicely. That being said, I used the Japanese chisel again this weekend to install some hinges. For this fine work the chisel was a pleasure to use. The scale of it in my hand was nice. The work only required the force of my hand. After four butt hinges the chisel didn't require any sharpening.
While my evidence may be anecdotal and I don't have any quotes to back me up, the pleasure of the tool is, in my mind, of great value. There is a pleasure also to be derived from the craftsmanship of the tool itself. We're all woodworkers here. Assuming I haven't landed in a nest of tool sluts, most of us value craftsmanship. This tool was handmade. It, like the furniture I make, is the work of a craftsman. Personally, I enjoy the slower process of a handmade object over factory-produced goods. I view (and you guys have some license to make fun here) the objects around me as a series of choices. If I make wise choices then they enhance my environment. If in a rush or on a budget I have to purchase something for its utilitarian use, then that object is due for replacement. To some degree the woodworking craft is under attack by the pornographic tool magazines and Tool Reviews we are inundated with on a regular basis. Its very easy to loose the focus of craftsmanship. Evidence of this can be found in the folks we all know who get into the craft, acquire the tools, set up a shop and then move on to the next sweet taste in their mouth.
My initial question still stands, but with clarification: are traditional Japanese chisels for hand use only or is a mallet ok in some capacity? Was it that the 1/8 inch chisel was too small for the use of a mallet?
Thanks, this is fun!
I am fairly certain that if the tool is hooped [has a hoop around the top of the handle] that it is designed to be struck. These are typically referred to as striking chisels. Any chisel could be struck, the limiting factor is how much material you are trying to remove. If you are removing 1/64" with a 1/8" chisel that is fine. If you are trying to remove 1/4" with the same chisel you are in for some problems.
Your Marples will stand up to reasonably skilled use of the mallet - say the kind of force used to chop dovetails. Your Japanese chisels, due to their laminated construction, are unlikely to be as tolerant of the mallet though one would be making a mistake to broadly generalize.
Obviously, your 1/8th didn't withstand the mallet well. Any bending, however slight, speaks for itself.
You've had an experience in your shop that is far more valuable that what I or others may relate to you about our own experience(s). You used a mallet on a narrow chisel and it bent. Let it be a lesson and move on.
I am quite sure that with enough hand force a narrow Japanese chisel could be bent. I am equally sure that one could apply light taps of a mallet to same without any ill effects.
Long and short - you hit them too hard. You can hit them, but only lightly.
If your effort at chopping a mortise left you with that much cleanup to do then your time might be best spent on your mortising technique. Any clean up needed at the end should certainly not require more than a hand powered chisel or very, very light taps if the mood strikes you to use a mallet.
cstan
Due to the volatile nature of this particular thread, I wish to only inform you, not criticize at all. The whole purpose of the lamination process used to create these particular japanese chisels (Nishiki), which use steel salvaged from boat anchors over 200 years old (the reason being that there was no sulfur used in the mfg. process 200 years ago when they were created) is to create an edge which:
1. Gets sharper, and holds the edge longer under comparable use to other types of steel.
2. Creates an edge which is stronger and less likely to fail under comparable forces.
In my personal use of these chisels, I have found these 2 statements of quality to be extremely accurate for Nishiki chisels. This is not to say that it is true for all japanese chisels, just the ones made by Nishiki. Quite frankly, I think they should be that good for $650.00, which is what I paid for the set of 6.
Likewise, I have an older set of japanese style chisels (set of 10), that require very frequent sharpening. Even though they are hooped, I have changed their bevels to 20 degrees, and only use them for paring on installations, where I don't take my expensive set of chisels with me.
Jeff
The softer core of laminated steel chisels makes them incrementally easier to bend than a non-laminated chisel. This is the only point I was trying to make.
Laminated steels are not peculiar to Asia and were used throughout the world when the maker could not afford/justify the use of quality steel throughout the unit being made or needed to maximize the use precious, quality steel. Beyond that, there is nothing particularly special about laminated steel. Really.
Oh, to be sure those who own Japanese chisels can spout all the marketing blurbs from the Japan Woodworker catalog.
I'm sure your chisels cut beautifully, but I wouldn't get too hung up on the aura surrounding them.
I'd love to hear a specific instance where another one of your chisels "failed" and one of the Nishikis didn't.
What do you drive them with, a three pound hammer?
I'm sorry, but a lot of the stuff I read about Japanese saws and chisels is just a rehash of the sales puffery found in the catalogs of the distributors who sell these items.
Edited 1/4/2005 2:16 pm ET by cstan
Chief,
"My initial question still stands, but with clarification: are traditional Japanese chisels for hand use only or is a mallet ok in some capacity? Was it that the 1/8 inch chisel was too small for the use of a mallet?"
I agree with Peter and use a mallet on my 1/4" and 1/2" japanese all the time on dovetails. However, first I have three mallets and only use my lightest one on the japanese chisel. Also, and this is a big point, I chop/cut dovetails by holding the board vertically in the front vise and laying the chisel flat on the shoulder of the vise...that limits the impact on the chisel tip (I believe) and means I do not have to sharpen very frequently. I use firmer chisels for heavy chopping...reasonably sharp is good enough for the firmers.
Chief
With high hopes of answering your question, I use my Nishiki chisels to chop with all the time. I hand cut my dovetails with the board flat on my bench, with a guide board and sandpaper bottom (to avoid slippage) clamped across and even to my layout line. I wack the wood out, half way down, and then repeat on the other side. I don't think I have ever used the 1/8" chisel chopping though. That doesn't mean it can't, just means I haven't done it. I use the 1/8 for getting into the small spots, and only tap lightly on it, or with hand pressure.
I'm glad you were able to bend it back.
Jeff
"Tage Frid has also noted the relative uselessness of Japanese saws"Well, that won't hold water...I don't know exactly what Mr Frid said, but surely one can't use the word "useless" to desribe a tool that's been instrumental in the creation of all that Japanese woodwork..?CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
This is the actual quote:
"Japanese saws are good for special work. I have some but hardly ever use them, except in cramped spaces where I can't get in with a regular saw. The Japanese ripsaw cuts on the pull stroke-which makes the line fuzzy and hard to see when cutting joints the Western way. The Japanese crosscut saw has long teeth that might bend when hitting a knot. It's also difficult to resharpen, even with special files.". p.13-from "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking-Two Volumes in One, Unabridged"
That isn't much of a recommendation for their use, now is it?
Edited 1/2/2005 8:49 pm ET by ROBANDJO1
No; but your use of the word "useless" is not in the same league. It's a classic example of misquoting an author in a way that strengthens one's argument. I'd also submit that Mr Frid was probably well set in his ways before he first used a Japanese-style saw. He points out things that he doesn't like, but leaves out things that readers might find a plus: thin kerf; ease of cut; and some find it easier to control a pull stroke than a push stroke to name a few. It makes no sense to state with finality that any tool used as much and as well as the Japanese-style saw is not as good as another. Obviously, it's a matter of personal taste and priorities. For example, you used the words "spirit and tradition" to strengthen your argument that these tools are poor choices for beginners. But for some, spirit and tradition may be the main draw to the craft. I myself vastly prefer hand planes to jointers and planers. Why? Well, it's not because it's easier, that's for sure. Something about the tradition and craftsmanship appeals. And, to hold a quality tool and appreciate the craft and thought that went into making it...well, that either speaks for itself or it doesn't.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
<<No; but your use of the word "useless" is not in the same league.>>
I used the term "relative uselessness" which I think is somewhat different than your interpretation of my post("useless"). In any event, Tage doesn't seem to be recommending them.
<<And, to hold a quality tool and appreciate the craft and thought that went into making it...well, that either speaks for itself or it doesn't.>>
I fully agree, but the issue was whether such tools represent value for most woodworkers. I believe I have fully rendered my opinion in this area previously.
<<you used the words "spirit and tradition">>
I used the word "tradition". The title of Mr. Odate's excellent book uses the phrase "tradition, spirit". If "spirit and tradition", especially of the Japanese variety, amplifies one's interest in woodworking, then that is a personal matter. We all derive inspiration from varying sources. I limited my discussion, however, to the practical, mundane use of these tools.
The Vitriol is certainly building in this thread which has really gone sideways from the first call for help.The fact that a narrow Japanese chisel bent under a load that exceeded it's design is NOT a condemnation of ALL Japanese tools. Which is where this thread has gone.I am one of those workers who finds most Japanese tools not to my liking. And I find the mystique surrounding their use and tales of their vaunted edge sharpness immediately after sharpening annoying and belonging to the "True Believer" school of foolishness. Tage Frid (whom I greatly admired) found them less than useful. BUT! That does NOT make them useless.Any one who has learned his or her skills on western-style tools, will find western style tools "better." Anyone who has trained under Japanese teaching will find those methods and tools preferable.I find some of the discipline with which Japanese-trained craftsmen appraoch their work admirable. I find some of the practices as just plain nonsense. But all that matters is the results. I can achieve a finer, cleaner, thinner cut with my western dovetail saw (specially filed and set) than I can with any pull-stroke Japanese saw when I am working in hardwoods. But I can't do fine work in fir at all. Japanese-trained craftsmen can.I don't care what tool a craftsman uses. If the finished work is good and fine and it produces expressions of admiration from those who see it, that is all that matters.Rich
We do not know that it bent under a load that it was not designed for. He may have been using virtually no pressure whatsoever. I think that is the essance of the original post, was he doing something wrong.
Rich
I wished I would have read your post before my last reply was posted. I actually wrote half of it, and got called down to dinner. A half hour later, I came up and finished my thought. I agree with you, on all accounts. It's what works for you.
I am one of those self taught guys, who had woodshop class in 8th grade and was hooked ever since. I came to the defense of Nishiki chisels only because the other guy was telling the original poster that it was useless. I'm not a Japanese style woodworker. Quite frankly, I don't know what the heck I am, other than a guy who builds things and gets paid for most of them.
I guess I got a little fired up when I was attacked by Korn, Frid, and a dictionary all at the same time. The dictionary left a welt over my eye, but Frid is in the 1st row.
Jeff
Jeff,Tage was one of the Good Guys.Too bad you've already eaten 'cause you could have used a chilled New York steak cut for that welt. Here's how:Cook it medium rare on the barbecue, add steak sauce and consume with 2-3 glasses of red wine. You won't notice the welt a bit!Rich
Rich
Thanks. I'm smiling with a soft chuckle.
Jeff
Chief..
I think the key to the solution lies in the fault itself; the area where the tool has bent is softer, more malleable steel. It should be fairly straight forward to straighten once the handle has been removed. A little heat applied during / after the process should alleviate any induced stresses.
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
One typically doesn't hammer 1/8" paring chisels (Western or Japanese), they are powered by hand only. The product is not defective and I hope you don't ask the company to replace it. The fault is entirely yours, unfortunately.
If you need to chop mortises then I would reccomend that you buy some mortise chisels.
The fix is relatively easy, but I doubt you should attempt it.
Edited 1/1/2005 3:27 pm ET by cstan
Chief,
People that go through life with no regrets never lived. Experience makes the woodworker. Dont worry about it. Either bend that bad boy back or find someone that will. Keep going. Buy more japanese chisels, maybe bigger.
-zen
I agree, you do not use a hammer on a 1/8 chisel,it simply isn't made to withstand the blunt force.
The force against the chisel is only equal to the resistance that the chisel provides. A 1" chisel will recieve a lot of force, while a 1/8" chisel will only recieve 1/8 of that same amount of force.
cstan,Geez. Why don't you rap his knuckles with a big ruler, have him stand in the corner and have the class make fun of him. What's with the angry, condescending tone?Chief,Such a chisel is meant to be used very, very sharp, held very close down on the shaft, almost at the tip, with the thumb clamping it against the index finger for power and control, while pushing down with the other hand, or even gently with your upper body weight.The slight bend you have caused is probably nothing more than cosmetic and a blow to your pride, and has "ruined" its new-gift aura.Don't worry too much about it. You can gently (emphasis on gently) hammer it back to shape if you want. It's not ruined by any means. It simply has more "character" now.No one wakes up in the morning saying, "Hey, today I'm going to commit about 10 dumbass mistakes." Nevertheless we all do. And we hopefully don't repeat the same ones too soon again. I'm about halfway through my alloted number so far today!Keep that chisel sharp and keep using it!Rich
>> Why don't you rap his knuckles with a big ruler ...That's his role here. The only reason we put up with him is that he makes the rest of us look helpful and welcoming.
He was cleaning out a mortise. Read the posting.
Regardless of whether or not he was cleaning out a mortise, a paring chisel that narrrow is powered by hand only.
Cleaning out a mortise is easily done hand powered. The initial chopping, of course, is done with a mortise chisel and wooden mallet.
Hello Chief. If the bend in the chisel is not within the last 1-1/2 inches or so I would't worry about it too much. I would straighten it out by clamping it in a wooden jawed vice and gently bend it back. I chop with a 1/8" chisel all the time. If the tool is sharp I almost don't think you could hit one hard enough to bend it because there would not be that much resistance in the cut. My guess is that it bent pulling it out or accidentally prying it? Any chisel can be used to chop [mallet preasure] it is just a question of how much wood to remove per pass. Mortice chisel - just pound it in. Paring chisel - light cuts, mallet or hand pressure.
While I am one in the set of people who feel the Japanese Chisels are over priced if not overrated and perhaps poorly designed, you simply misused the tool.
I don't know how you measured "bringing the edge to an unsupassed sharpness," but if you know how to measure that property you should know how to use the tool. Any HSS or A2 tool can be just as sharp so your commment appears to be from what you have read rather than from what is practiced.
The phrase "hand tool" indicates that the tool is powered by hand not by a hammer. I suggest you limit your "power" to hands only.
I agree that bending back will restore the original shape. There will be some loss of stiffness.
A mortise chisel is a hand tool. Do you hand power these? If you sharpen a chisel sharper than you ever have before then it would be unsurpassed sharpness.
Edited 1/2/2005 7:50 pm ET by Peter36
Peter36 ---I drill my mortices then I use bench chisels to finish the ends and sides - without the assistance of a hammer.chief ---I expect you will enjoy using your chisel. It is always nice to use a beautiful tool that fits your hand and style of work.I will point out to you that a 1/8" chisel is perhaps only 1/64 as stiff as a 1/4" chisel. That makes it a lot easier to bend.
So once again, do you hand power a mortise chisel when cutting a mortise?
Mortice chisels are driven with a wooden mallet.
Mortice chisels are thick in profile to withstand the mallet and levering to remove waste. That said, one can certainly do minor cleanup on an already chopped mortice with a handpowered mortice chisel. In fact it would be preferable. If you start fooling with the walls with your paring chisels you run the very real risk of paring to an out of square condition, making the mortice oversize, or any number of other ills.
The thickness of the mortice chisel will smooth the walls sufficiently if it's used properly. There should be no need for cleanup on the walls when you are finished chopping. I haven't cut a mortice with a machine in over two years and the only cleanup I find myself performing is a little at the bottom of the mortice at the each end. A few light taps and everthing is usually fine.
Edited 1/4/2005 9:14 am ET by cstan
Peter36 ---Yes, I hand power mortice chisels when cutting a mortise.Cstan ---While a mortice chisel can be driven with a hammer, there is no requirement to do so.I push my dull 1/4" chisel through cross grain wood taking off 1/32" thick endgrain chips. I can do much better with a sharp chisel, but ...
Edited 1/4/2005 10:04 am ET by GeorgeR
I'm confused... in a post above you say that you drill your mortises and then clean up with paring chisels. No problem there....
Are you now saying that you use a hand powered mortice chisel from a cold start? If so, you seem to have strayed pretty far from orthodoxy. The thought of powering a mortice chisel without a mallet makes me hurt all over. I can chop the average mortice for a frame, say a cabinet door, in less than five minutes. How long does is take you without using the mallet? Does hard maple give you any trouble while working in handpowered mode? Forgive my incredulousness.
cstan,
I believe he said he drills out the waste in the mortise then pairs the tissue with bench chisels and also uses mortise chisels to clean up by hand. A description of a time-honored way of cutting mortises, as traditional as using a mortise chisel and mallet.
Rich
You're right, drilling and paring is time honored. However, I believe what he said might confuse the neophyte when he says he uses mortice chisels with hand power only. He apparently is, but only after bulk waste has been drilled out. Frankly, I see no need for a mortise chisel if one drills out the waste first. I think that's the whole point - it keeps the woodworker from having to buy a separate set of chisels since bevel edged firmers do a fine job if almost all the waste has been drilled out.
Clearly, one would be a little touched to cut mortices with a mortice chisel from a cold start (no drilled out waste) using only hand power.
Well, you've certainly saved any neophytes from that danger. And it is comforting that protecting them from confusion is one of your goals here. (Hmm . . .)
But I think the only danger to neophytes is to wander anywhere near this thread.
Rich
Whatever you say Rich.
cstan,
Yeah?
You da man!
Rich
I can say only one thing with certainty after reading this thread...hollow chisel mortisers rule! Clean up with japanese or western chisels is relatively the same.
Benchdog,
This thread really isn't about mortising methods.
But,
Never used one. If I had a lot of mortising to do, I'd invest in the heaviest one I could find.
Is this the time to describe my mortising technique? I use a plunge router and a jig. Beats any other method I've ever used. Gee, we could spin off now on the merits of square vs round-edge tenons. Or whether it's useful to pare round corner-mortises square.
Rich
I would like to take this time ( 6:39 p.m ) to apoligize to Rich and everyone else for spinning off the subject of this thread.
You might try a horizontal slot mortiser! I've used them all from hollow chisel, chainsaw mortisers and maka mortisers and none compare to slot mortisers for speed and accuracy.
You did not appear to like my first answer - drilling and then using a bench chisel to clean up.So I gave you the answer you wanted - I push a mortice chisel by hand.I don't know what more I can do for you.
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