Quick question.
I’m attempting to make a workbench using only handtools and I need some advice on how to “square” the end of the 4×4 fir posts I’m using for the legs.
Normally, I’d just cut them in the chopsaw and that would be straight enough for me, but I’m trying to do it with just handtools. I’d also like to try and do it freehand without using my mitre box as even that doesn’t give a completely smooth cut in that size wood.
For smaller pieces, I just cut with a crosscut saw and then use my jackplane or blockplane to square of the endgrain with a shooting board, but I can’t do this in this instance as my plane’s blade is 2″ wide and doesn’t cover the end of the 4×4 in one pass.
Short of using my miter box or miraculously becoming a sawing expert (I can’t cut a straight line consistently in that size wood) overnight, can you give me any suggestions?
Thanks!
Replies
Well, if you really insist on doing it with only hand tools. if could be done, but the chopsaw would be a heck of a lot easier. But that is not what you asked.
Totally by hand tools takes a different approach. What I would do was use a square to draw a scribed line around the circumference of the post at the exact location of the cut. Then use a handsaw to cut it a little proud of that line. Using chisels and a plane cutting from each side toward the center, cut just to the scribed line and keep it flat and level by checking the cut with a straight edge across the end, many times. The chisel and plane irons will need to be sharp and the cuts made toward the center to keep from splitting out the far side. This will take a bit of time and a bit more effort.
Doesn't sound like much fun does it?
Bruce
Quick answer.
First, if the post is not squared on all four sides you can have a problem with this method.
First with marking knife and square cut a line (deep) squared around on all 4 sides. Then with a chisel and mallet deepen the cut line and cut back from the waste side to form a shallow "vee" shaped groove, again on all four sides. Then you can start a saw in the groove and cut as close to the line as you dare but keep to the waste side. The stand the post up in the vise and plane in from all four sides to remove any waste.
Bill
I'd use my bow saw. Doesn't take long to learn how to cut a straight line (less than one afternoon). Clean it up with a block plane.
I've just finished doing this (building a bench with mostly handtools, with 4X4's as the legs). In my case, I simply checked the end for square against the sides of the piece, penciled in the high spots, and removed these with a low-angle block plane.
However, I'll also note that I didn't get too anal with this - for most bench designs, it really doesn't matter that much if the tops of the legs are square, as they'll be tenoned into the top. If you're using a cross-stretcher tenoned into the tops of the legs, then I'd suggest making the joint first, then jointing the long resulting surface that goes against the bottom of the bench with a jointer plane. There's really no need in squaring the tops of the legs precisely, then having to do it again when there's a slight misalignment in the tenons.
Very easy to do on that soft wood.
Use a square to knife a line all round, as deep as possible.Stand the piece up in your vice and use a plane like a #51/2 which has some weight and a decent toe length. Wax the sole , set a fine cut and use a short circular motion being sure not to sweep through to the outer end at any time- that may cause break out, but if the plane is sharp this risk is minimal.You can go diagonally across the face or follow the grain lines-it soon becomes clear which way suits. Once you are used to this method you can increase the cut . Check with your square in all directions often.
Using a plane with a long toe allows you to register firmly where you want to cut, then have the blade start cutting without skipping. Having a heavy solid bench that prevents movement helps a great deal.Philip Marcou
Edited 11/24/2008 2:07 pm by philip
Woodworking101 ,
You're goal, as I read it, is to achieve, with hand tools, a cut that is square to the 4 x 4 post, whether that is really needed for the legs of a work bench or not (depending on the construction details for other connecting members).
The question is a valid one, and being able to do that is a basic skill that you'll use in other joinery efforts.
Here's how to make such a cut, confident that it's going to work, every time.
First, and this can't be emphasized too much. The work MUST be square and true. If it's not, using hand tools or power tools, attempts to do this cut will just be an exercise in frustration. It will not be possible to achieve any accuracy.
The sides of the 4x4 must be square to each other and opposite faces must be parallel. With power tools, you flatten one side (face) on the joiner and true an adjoining side to be square to that and flat. Then you run the post through a thickness planer to achieve parallelism and flatness of opposite faces.
Without those indispensable machines, you must true the 4x4 with a hand plane, if it is not true, frequently checking with a square and calipers for 90 degrees and parallel.
Once you are sure the post is true, mark it for the cut. If it is square, you will be able to extend the cut line with a tri-square, all the away around 4 sides, and it will meet itself exactly where it started. If the piece is out of square or parallelism, the beginning and end won't meet.
Extending the line all around checks for trueness, but you only need to mark 3 sides for cutting. Use a marking knife and score deep enough that you can clearly see (and feel) the line.
With the piece clamped in a vise, you need the top face marked as well as the face toward you and away from you. As described above, it may help to deepen the line with a chisel and create a shallow angled groove on the waste side, leaving a straight shoulder as a guide for the saw. This isn't necessary if you develop the technique of using the thumb nail of your left hand (if you are right-handed) held down exactly to the line to guide the saw. The entire thickness of the saw blade is on the waste side of the line, and as the saw starts to cut it "splits the line" on the waste side.
The saw MUST be sharp. This makes all the difference in the world. A sharp saw will go exactly where you want it to with almost no effort. A dull saw will screw you over. It will wander and fight you.
Start the cut with the saw tipped back slightly to start cutting on the near corner, get that corner established, slightly, then level the saw so that it is parallel to the face, cutting the full length of the line on that face. Don't force the saw, keep it perpendicular to the face, you want it to establish its kerf all along the line, exactly splitting the line on the waste side. Don't use more than the weight of the saw for the first few strokes. Deepen the kerf to about the depth of the teeth.
Then, repositioning the post in the vice, do the same thing on the near face and the far face. The kerf established on the first face will help in locating the saw next to the line on these 2 faces. Keep the saw perpendicular to the faces. Deepen the kerfs on these faces about twice as deep as on the first face.
Reposition the post to start sawing on the first face again. You have the kerf established, all that's necessary is to hold the saw perpendicular to the face. The kerfs on the near and far faces will guide the blade from wandering and keep it perpendicular to the first face. Since the kerfs are perfectly square to the cut, the cut will be square. Do not force the saw. If it is sharp, it will work for you. If you force, you will drive the saw out of the guiding kerfs. If you allow the saw to cut easily, it will ride right down those guides. As you saw, check near and far faces frequently that the blade is staying in the kerfs. Stop and deepen the guide kerfs if necessary. The saw will come out the bottom face exactly on the waste side of the line.
Like any technique, this takes some practice. But after a few successful tries, you will find that the saw just "knows" to stay where it should and you will actually have to try hard to get it to wander. Once the saw "knows," you are home free. Hand-guided, square cuts will be almost automatic. You can use this method whether the work is a square post or rectangular board. A little clean-up may be needed after the cut with a block plane. After a while, that little bit will be almost nothing.
Rich
Edited 11/24/2008 2:53 pm ET by Rich14
"The sides of the 4x4 must be square to each other and opposite faces must be parallel. Etc., etc. etc."
Uh, I think you emphasized that a bit too much. ;-)
Not true. If that was so, you could never, for example, cut a dowel or a tapered leg square. It is only important that the corners be parallel, not the faces. (And even that is not all that important -- at least not until you need to worry about joints with other elements.) For example, you could easily cut a diamond-shaped post, or a triangle-shaped post, square to its length. Even if the corners are not square, or even straight (e.g., tapered leg), you can still cut a post square to its length by standing it up plumb, and scribing a horizontal line around the bottom at the spot to be cut. This is done all the time to, for example, equalize legs on furniture.
To the OP: The bottom line is, if you wanna use hand tools, you're just gonna have to take the time to develop the skills to use them. Otherwise, why bother? IMHO, that's really the main difference between hand and power tools -- the different skills necessary to make them work. Granted, there's usually a steeper learning curve for hand tools, but it's not insurmountable if you just get started.
Mark a cut line and cut to it. Simple. Use a crosscut saw or a bow saw or whatever sharp, straight saw you can get ahold of. (Hey, it's pine (?) 4X4s for a workbench -- not an ironwood blockfront!) Go slowly and check both sides of the cut frequently to make sure you're going straight. If you find the cut wandering, stop and make the necessary correction. As another poster said, if you aren't confident that you can cut to the line, cut shy and sneak up on the final line with a plane.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,If he uses the technique of holding the post plumb and scribing the line from a fixed marking point, that's fine. That establishes a plane perpendicular to the axis of the leg and parallel to the ground.No argument that's a valid line to saw to. But that's not a general technique to saw the end off a board, square to the board, and that's what I described. It's a skill needed far more often in wood working.Using a Tri-square on trued stock is an essential basic technique. Learn to true and square stock and MANY problems go away. It's one of the most the most fundamental rules.Rich
If you want to buy a tool: the Nobex miter boxes are great:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32926&cat=1,42884
I used one for many years before I got my Makita sliding compound miter saw.
Are the ends of these legs going to be seen?
Certainly the bottoms won't as they'll be on the floor. Start by knifing the length required on one leg using a square. Hold, ie, cramp all the bits of wood together on a flat surface and scribe the requiste length from the first piece across all the rest using a square and knife-- you might have to do this one at a time from your 'master' leg if you don't have a square with a long enough blade.
Do as some others have said and scribe a knife line all around. Mark the line you want to cut using the stock of the square against just two sides of the wood, ie, your marked face side and marked face edge created when you originally squared and trued the wood. This way you reduce the likelihood of compounding any errors through your wood being less than perfectly square.
Hack off the wood to your marked line with a cross cut panel saw. Job done.
If the top of the legs are hidden under the bench top do exactly the same marking and hacking job here too.
I don't this kind of job is one anyone generally needs to get to precision minded about, ie, why bother with all the fiddle of planing the sawn end if it is going to be hidden anyway? Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 11/24/2008 3:57 pm by SgianDubh
Richard,
Took the words right out of my mouth. I'd put it this way:
If the end of the leg is going to show, that is, as a tenon or dovetail projecting through the top's surface, leave it a little long intentionally, not particularly or necessarily square, then flush it to the top surface after assembly. If the end will not show, i.e, it will end up as the end of a tenon inside a mortise, again roughly cut it square-ish but purposely short. Spend your time and efforts instead on the cheeks and shoulders of the tenon/ dovetail to achieve a good joint. The ends of the legs that end up on the floor can be fine-adjusted for length (if needed) by application of winding sticks and planing, sawing or whatever, as needed.
Half the skill in working only by hand is understanding when a surface needs to be true, and when it can be less than. Much labor can be saved thusly.
Ray
Guys,He wants advice on how to "square" the end of a 4 x 4 post using hand tools (his quotes).Whether squaring the top is needed for the leg of a work bench or not, (and we have NO idea of the design, anyway) that's the thing he asked for help with.Rich
Perhaps he wants this advice because he doesn't know he doesn't need to square the end of the leg? That's the point Richard and Ray were making. I know neither one of them knows what the hell they're talking about when it comes to woodworking, but in my expert opinion they might be on to something.
Oh, I see.Guy asks a question. We say, "Dumb question. You don't need to do that. So you don't need to know how to do it."Hey, whatever!Rich
Rich,
You are quite right. But in my own defense, I'll say that I've often been spared needless work by getting good advice, and that is what I was hoping to do for the poster in this case.
Ray
Ray,OK. Point taken. Now he knows HOW to square a post. AND how to use a post when building a work bench.But we STILL don't know the design of the bench. Maybe he NEEDS the end squared?Film at 11.Rich
"Hack off the wood to your marked line with a cross cut panel saw. Job done."
Yes,pont taken but he still wanted to know how to clean up/square the ends. As you intimated, not crucial for a bench- provided he did in fact hack off the ends sort of square and in the right place to get four legs the same length within reason.
But sooner or later one is faced with just that-the need to clean up ends accurately.Philip Marcou
It's not something you'd want to do on a regular basis though is it Philip? Once in a blue moon maybe, but if the ability to cut to a line is so poorly developed that the technique you desribed is required on workaday objects such as fir bench legs, I'd suggest a bit of serious hand-powered cross cutting practice is in order; wouldn't you, ha, ha? Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Woodworking101,
My suggestion...sled feet.
Get a neighbor to cut the posts with your mitersaw,Now you can truthfully say ,I only used handtools to build this bench.
mike
Asuming that you have a saw that cuts... Mark out your line all around the post. Cut to the line and then do it on the other 3 posts. that is it. Maybe practice this cut a few times on some scrap. That is it. Not anything that needs to be over thought.
Derek Borne
Rich14 has the right answer for you. Planing or chiseling the waste are things you must do if you screw up Rich14's technique. You can (I can) easily blow square by 1/4" on a 4x4. That's a lot of chiseling. So I use Rich's technique. I call it, "sawing the corners out". What's nice about it is you don't have to have a level inside your brain or hand and don't need 20 years experience with saws. Saw each corner out, watching each line. If you screw one, stop advancing on the good one and lay the saw down in the bad kerf to fix it.
Once you go all the way around, even if your kerfs are only an 1/8" deep, you can usually just complete the cut from one side or corner. The trick is holding the saw very lightly. It will find the path of least resistance unless you force it. My experience is that you need a sharp saw for this. When you have a dull saw, you end up pushing it to make it work faster and that causes many problems.
Good luck with your bench. Yours was a good question. Shocking how many experienced woodworkers can't do what you are attempting. So don't feel bad about struggling with this operation.
Adam
Edited 11/27/2008 9:11 am ET by AdamCherubini
How to square a the end of a 4x4?
Chain saw and a plane~
Personally, I wouldn't call a chainsaw a hand tool.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
You hold it in your hands?
Will,
A REAL Neanderthal has a prehensile tail!
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
A REAL Neanderthal here..
No tail that I know of but I'm happy with what God made me as.
Okay, you've got me there.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
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